>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WITH MUCH, IF NOT ALL OF JOE BIDEN'S AGENDA POTENTIALLY ON THE BALLOT IN NEXT YEAR'S MIDTERMS, DEMOCRATS ARE GEARING UP NOW TO BATTLE FOR EVERY LAST SEAT-- AMONG THEM, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK, WHO JOINS ME.

THEN, LATER, PATRIOTS SAFETY DEVIN McCOURTY ON HIS OFF-FIELD FIGHT ON BEHALF OF WILLIAM ALLEN, WHO'S SPENT 27 YEARS BEHIND BARS FOR A MURDER EVERYONE AGREES HE DID NOT COMMIT.

McCOURTY AND OTHERS SAY ALLEN IS A CHANGED MAN AND DESERVES TO BE RELEASED.

GOVERNOR BAKER HAS THE FINAL CALL.

DEVIN McCOURTY WILL MAKE HIS PITCH FOR ALLEN'S FREEDOM.

DEAL OR NO DEAL?

THAT'S BEEN THE QUESTION FOR MONTHS, AS JOE BIDEN HAS TRIED TIME AND AGAIN TO BREAK THE DEADLOCK BETWEEN MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY OVER A SWEEPING PACKAGE THAT COULD MAKE REAL MANY SEVERAL OF HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES, FROM AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE AND FREE COLLEGE, TO ADDRESSING CLIMATE CHANGE AND TAX UNFAIRNESS.

UNFAIRNESS AND PRESIDENT WAS AT IT AGAIN TODAY WITH BACK-TO-BACK MEETINGS TRYING TO CONVINCE HIS PARTY TO BACK THE EFFORT BECAUSE HE NEEDS EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRAT TO VOTE YES IN THE SENATE TO GET THIS LEGISLATION THROUGH.

LATE THIS AFTERNOON A, KEY HOLDOUT SENATOR JOE MANCHIN REPORTEDLY SAID HE WOULD WORK WITH PROGRESSIVES IN LEADERSHIP TO REACH A DEAL BY THE END OF THE WEEK, AS FOR SENATOR CINEMA SHE IS BACK FROM HER FUND-RAISING JUNKET IN EUROPE BUT FOR THE EXACT ROLE SHE IS PLAYING HERE I WOULDN'T EVEN HAZARD A GUESS.

TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, HOWEVER.

.. BECAUSE TYPICALLY A PRESIDENT'S PARTY LOSES SEATS IN MIDTERM ELECTIONS BUT WITH PLENTY MORE OF BIDE'S, POLICE REFORM, THEY ARE GEARING UP TO BUCK THE MIDTERM ELECTION TREND, AMONG THEM, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK WHO IS LAUNCHING A NEW INITIATIVE TO EMPOWER GRASS ROOTS ACTIVISTS FOR 2022 AND BEYOND, IT IS CALLED BRIDGE TOGETHER, GOVERNOR PATRICK, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, JIM, THANK YOU.

>> Braude: COULD YOU FLESH OUT THIS BRIDGE TOGETHER THING A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN I DID?

>> SURE.

>> Braude: WHAT YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE?

>> SURE, TWHEL IS AN INITIATIVE OF A SO-CALLED SUPER PAC OF PROGRESSIVE SUPER PAC CALLED AMERICAN BRIDGE 21ST CENTURY FOUNDATION WHICH I COCHAIR.

AND IT IS ABOUT SUPPORTING LOCAL GROUPS THAT ARE DOING GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZING ALL OF THE TIME INSTEAD OF JUST IN TIME THE WAY A LOT OF CAMPAIGNS DO.

I THINK YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT I BELIEVE GRASS ROOTS CAMPAIGNING IS, THIS WHOLE IDEA OF MEETING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE AND GETTING THEM ENGAGED IN A GIVEN CAMPAIGN.

I THINK IN FACT IT IS IMPORTANT TO DO THAT ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZING IS REALLY ABOUT COMMUNITY BUILDING AND WE NEED MORE OF A SENSE OF COMMUNITY ON A WHOLE RANGE OF THINGS BUT CERTAINLY TO BUILD A MORE LASTING PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT.

>> WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM?

>> PRIVATE DONORS, WHO ARE GIVING TO THIS C 3, WHICH IS NOT FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION WHERE WE ARE IDENTIFYING EXISTING LOCAL GROUPS IN THREE KEY STATES AT THE OUTSET IN ARIZONA AND IN GEORGIA AND A PENNSYLVANIA, AND I HOPE WE WILL BE ABLE TO EXPAND DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE RAISE TO WISCONSIN AND NORTH CAROLINA.

BUT THERE ARE GREAT GROUPS WORKING ON THE GROUND WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS, BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS OF TRUST, REALLY IMPORTANT IN DEALING WITH YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF DISINFORMATION OUT THERE AND JUST MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE TRUSTED SOURCES OF INFORMATION, IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT ABOUT IN TERMS OF HELPING PEOPLE GET READY FOR THE NEW BARRIERS DEVOTING THAT HAVE BEEN IMPOSED IN MANY, MANY STATES, AND I THINK THIS WILL BE HOW WE OVERCOME THAT.

>> Braude: SO SPEAKING OF 2022, THOUGH, WHILE OBVIOUSLY THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN OBSTRUCTIONISTS ON THE WHOLE BIDEN AGENDA, THE DEMOCRATS DO CONTROL THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, ALBEIT IT BY A MODERATE, MODEST MARGIN, IF THEY DON'T DELIVER, WHAT IS IT THAT GRASS ROOTS ACTIVISTS ARE GOING TO BE TRYING TO SELL TO PEOPLE?

AREN'T THE DEMOCRATS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE IF THEY CAN'T DELIVER?

>> I THINK WHAT THE GRASS ROOTS FOLKS WILL BE DOING ARE SELLING ALTERNATIVE CANDIDATES, RIGHT?

IF DEMOCRATS DON'T DELIVER.

WE HAVE, I MEAN CONTROL, JIM, IT IS A FUNNY TERM TO USE RIGHT NOW, WHEN, IN FACT, WE HAVE SUCH, AS YOU MENTIONED A THIN MARGIN OF DEMOCRATS AND DEMOCRATS AS USUAL REPRESENT A RANGE OF VIEWS.

BUT THE POINT HERE IS THAT DEMOCRATS ARE ALL TRYING TO DO WHAT WE CAN IN GOVERNMENT TO HELP PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES, INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE, COMES TO ISSUES LIKE THE ABILITY OF FAMILIES TO WORK AND ALSO HAVE FAMILIES AND BE SUPPORTED IN THAT, WHEN IT COMES TO FIXING NEGLECTED ROADS, RAILS AND BRIDGES AND EXPANDING BROADBAND, IT WILL TAKE GOVERNMENT PLAYING A ROLE, AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH ALL OF THE -- NOT -- ALL OF THE SIDES AMONG THE DEMOCRATS ARE TRYING TO FIND THEIR WAY TO YES, EVEN A SCALED DOWN HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, AT THE NUMBERS FOLKS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AND THE COMPONENTS OF IT IS TRANSFORMATIONAL, AND I THINK WILL BECOME SUCH AN INSTITUTIONAL PART OF THE WAY AMERICANS THINK OF REBUILDING THE AMERICAN DREAM THAT WHEN IT IS TIME TO RENEW IT WILL GET RENEWED.

>> Braude: I WANT TO STAY ON THIS TOPIC AND I WAS GOING TO USE THE EXPRESSION DRILL DOWN, WHICH I HATE, I DON'T KNOW WHY IT CAME INTO MY HEAD.

>> YOU HAVE USED IT, GO AHEAD.

>> Braude: MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE.

IT IS TOO LATE.

I WOKE UP THIS MORNING THE FIRST THING I DID IS WATCH A TED TALK FROM YOU AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR WORRIES ABOUT DEMOCRACY, I AM GOING TO QUOTE COW, QUOTE YOU BACK TO YOU, YOU SAID IT IS TRUCK CAN I TO LOVE A COUNTRY WHICH DOESN'T LOVE YOU BACK.

AND YOU WENT ON TO SAY MANY TIMES IN OUR HISTORY AMERICAN DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN CLOSED TO BLACK PEOPLE, WELL IT SEEMS TO ME THE DEMOCRATS IN THE CONGRESS ARE ALLOWING IT TO REMAIN CLOSED TO MANY BLACK PEOPLE AND LOW-INCOME PEOPLE AROUND THIS COUNTRY BY THEIR REFUSAL, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT, BY THE WAY, TO DEAL WITH THE FILIBUSTER SO THESE VOTING RIGHTS PROTECTION BILLS CAN PASS.

HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT DEMOCRATS, HOW CAN YOUR FUND SUPPORT DEMOCRATS WHO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE FILIBUSTER HAS OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS, I THINK THERE ARE -- OR AT LEAST WE HEAR FROM SOME OF THE SO-CALLED MODERATES IN THE SENATE THAT THERE WILL BE REPUBLICAN VOTES WHEN IT IS TIME TO CALL THE VOTE ON THE VOTING REFORM BILLS THAT ARE BEFORE THE SENATE.

THE HOUSE HAS MOVED THEM, AS YOU KNOW.

BUT I THINK WE ARE GOING HAVE TO CONFRONT THAT OBSTACLE FROM THE REPUBLICANS AND THE FILIBUSTER ONCE MORE BEFORE THE QUESTION GETS CALL TO ELIMINATE THE FILIBUSTER, FRANKLY WE SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT EXCEPTION WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES HAVING TO DO WITH THE TRY TALL AT THIS AND INTEGRITY OF OUR DEMOCRACY BEFORE NOW.

IF IT WERE UP TO ME IT IS NOT UP TO ME, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN HAVING A FAIR FIGHT, HAVING A CONTEST OF IDEALS, IDEAS, AND HAVING PEOPLE CONTEST THAT AND THE REPUBLICANS HAVE SHOWN THAT THEY ARE NOT.

>> Braude: DON'T YOU THINK THOUGH THAT JOE BIDEN IS SORT OF THE DENYING REALITY OF 2021, AMERICAN POLITICS BY STILL LAYING BACK ON THIS WHOLE FILIBUSTER THING?

>> , NO I THINK THAT, I AM NOT IN JOE BIDEN'S HEAD OR IN HIS YOU KNOW, IN HIS WHITE HOUSE, BUT MY GUESS IS THAT HE IS TRYING NOT TO MAKE THE FILIBUSTER THE CENTER OF ATTENTION UNTIL HE IS ABLE TO GET THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND THE BUILD BACK BETTER BILL THROUGH.

>> Braude: OKAY.

>> AND THEN WE TURN TO VOTING RIGHTS.

YOU KNOW, I WISH WE WOULD HAVE DONE THIS ALREADY.

I FRANKLY THINK IF WE DEALT WITH THE FILIBUSTER ALREADY WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET THESE OTHER BILLS DONE, BUT IF WHAT IT IS GOING TO COME DOWN TO, JIM, IS MAKING AN EXCEPTION IN FILIBUSTER FOR FUNDAMENTALS, LIKE ACCESS TO THE BALLOT AND THE INTEGRITY OF THAT BALLOT, I THINK AT A MINIMAL WE OUGHT TO MAKE THAT EXCEPTION AND WE WILL GET TO THAT.

>> Braude: I BELIEVE YOUR TERMS AS GOVERNOR OVERLAPPED AT LEAST SOME DEGREE WITH JOE MANCHIN'S TERM AS GOVERNOR OF WEST VIRGINIA, IN FACT -- >> >> Braude: I NOTICED HE WAS CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNOR'S ASSOCIATION FOR A WHILE, I THINK A YEAR THERE WHILE YOU WERE GOVERNOR.

I AM SERIOUS, DO YOU HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THIS MAN OR HIS AGENDA OR WHAT MOVES HIM OR WHY HE IS STOPPING THE MOVEMENT HERE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT IS FRUSTRATING FOR ME FROM THIS DISTANCE, I THINK OF JOE MANCHIN AS A FRIEND OF MINE.

HE AND GAIL WERE INCREDIBLY WELCOMING TO DIANE AND ME WHEN WE WERE -- WE WENT TO WHAT WAS CALLED A NEW GOVERNOR'S SCHOOL IN WEST VIRGINIA, SHORTLY AFTER THE, SHORTLY AFTER THE ELECTION WITH OTHER NEWLY ELECTED GOVERNORS AND HE AND THEY TOGETHER HAVE BEEN GRACIOUS TO US EVER SINCE, I TALK TO HIM A LOT WHEN BARACK OBAMA FIRST WENT INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AND WE WERE WORKING WITH HIM ON A NUMBER OF -- ON A NUMBER OF INITIATIVES AROUND THE ADMINISTRATION.

I DON'T KNOW THAT I UNDERSTAND THE POLITICS OF WEST VIRGINIA THE WAY HE DOES.

I AM NOT SURE ANYBODY DOES.

I THINK I WOULD BE -- I WOULD BE SURPRISED TO FIND THE POLITICS OF WEST VIRGINIA QUITE ASSORT OF FROZEN, AS HE SOMETIMES PROJECTS IT BEING.

I MEAN, AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE COAL INDUSTRY WHO UNDERSTAND THAT COAL IS A DECLINING INDUSTRY AND HAS BEEN FOR SOME WHILE, AND WHO WOULD LIKE TO FEEL AND OUGHT TO FEEL THEY HAVE A STAKE IN A GREEN CLEAN ENERGY FUTURE.

AND I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN AT LEAST DURING THE CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN EXPRESS ABOUT THAT, JUST AS ONE EXAMPLE.

AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY OF THE OTHER PROGRAMS THAT DEMOCRATS ARE TALKING ABOUT WHICH SHOULD BE HUGELY IMPORTANT TO THE PEOPLE HE REPRESENTS.

>> Braude: OF COURSE.

>> AGAIN FROM WHAT I KNOW OF THEM SO -- >> THE HEART OF -- >> Braude:.

>> SINEMA.

>> Braude: YES, WHEREVER SHE IS.

>> YOU MENTIONED YOU NOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE REPORTS OBVIOUSLY AS YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL'S POSITION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE INCLUDING DEMOCRATS ARE SAYING MERRICK GARLAND WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME COURT, NOT SUCH A HOT ATTORNEY GENERAL AND I WILL QUOTE YOU AGAIN FROM YOUR TED TALK THAT I WATCHED AT 5:00 O'CLOCK THIS MORNING.

LEADERS IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE ENCOURAGED DEADLY ASSAULT TO OVERTURN OUR ELECTION.

ONE OF THOSE LEADERS IS FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PEOPLE LIKE LARRY TRIBE ON THIS SHOW AND ELSEWHERE SAID THERE ARE REASONS TO A MINIMUM INVESTIGATE HIM, AT MAXIMUM TO CHARGE HIM, MERRICK GARLAND DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE DOING EITHER.

ARE YOU AMONG HIS CRITICS OR ARE YOU NOT?

YOU KNOW, I KNOW MERIT, I THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME COURT AND I THINK SHE DOING A VERY GOOD JOB AS ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE DIFFERENT BETWEEN METER GARLAND AND WHAT WE HAD AND IN THAT POST AND MANY OTHERS IS THAT HE IS GOING TO DO THE WORK ..

WITHOUT OWING ABOUT IT UNTIL HE HAS SOMETHING TO SAY.

AND SO I WOULDN'T PRESUME THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LEAKING INFORMATION OR GIVING STATUS UPDATES AND ALL OF THAT ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIONS THAT THERE IS NO INVESTIGATION.

HE IS A VERY METHODICAL, SERIOUS LAWYER AND JURIST AND I THINK HE IS JUST THE RIGHT PICK FOR MOMENT WE ARE IN.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU WERE, YOU ARE, I SAID WERE, YOU A PRETTY GOOD LAWYER, DO YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP HAS COMMITTED CRIMES FOR WHICH HE SHOULD BE CHARGED?

>> LOOK, FOR ALL THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE AND WATCH, THEY WERE SORT OF OPEN AND NOTORIOUS CRIME.

HE IS NOT ONLY ONE.

AND TYPICALLY IN A HIGH PROFILE PROSECUTION OF THIS KIND THERE IS AN AWFUL LOT THAT IS DONE TO MAKE THE CASE LOWER DOWN AND TO BUILD TOWARD THE HIGHER UPS AND I SUSPECT, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I SUSPECT THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING A IN THIS CASE.

>> Braude: GOVERNOR, LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR CO-CHAIRMAN SHIP OF THIS FUTURE OF TECH COMMISSION.

I KNOW THE COMMISSION RELEASED A SURVEY LAST WEEK SHOWING THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITIES OF DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS BELIEVE THE TECH COMMUNITY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR, QUOTE, HARMFUL AND ILLEGAL CONTENT, WE JUST LIVED THROUGH WHISTLEBLOWER AT FACEBOOK TALKING ABOUT-FACE BOOK, NOT SURPRISINGLY PUTTING PROFITS OVER SAFETY, PARTICULARLY OF YOUNG WOMEN, OF GIRLS, WE KNOW ABOUT THEIR ALLOWING MISINFORMATION, DEADLY MISINFORMATION ABOUT COVID TO GO ONLINE.

WHAT IS THE CURE, DO YOU BELIEVE, AND WHAT IS YOUR COMMISSION GOING TO RECOMMEND AS CURE?

>> JIM, I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH.

I AM NOT A TECHIE, I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM TALKING TO TECHIES AND ADVOCATES AND RESEARCHERS AND YOU KNOW, ACADEMICS AND MANY, MANY OTHERS ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH THE HARVESTING OF DATA ABOUT US A LOT OF WHICH WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IS HAPPENING, HOW THAT IS ABUSED, HOW THAT IS AGGREGATED, HOW IT IS DISAGGREGATED, HOW IT IS SOLD AND TO WHOM.

AND YOU MAY THINK AT ANY GIVEN TIME IS THAT YOU KNOW, I SAY ON MY COMMISSIONERS, I GO ONLINE TO ORDER A PAIR OF JEANS, HOW DOES THAT ULTIMATELY TURN INTO MY GETTING INFORMATION FROM QANON, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> Braude: OF COURSE.

>> AND I HAVE COME CAN TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT HAPPENED.

WE ALL HAVE.

WE HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD ON OUR RECOMMENDATIONS.

WE ARE NOT DONE YET.

I AM NOT GOING TO ANNOUNCE THEM HERE UNTIL WE ARE READY TO ANNOUNCE THEM.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE SOME INSIGHTS INTO SOME FIXES THAT CAN HELP.

I THINK WE ARE CERTAIN AT THIS POINT AS ARE MOST PEOPLE INSTINCTIVELY THAT LEAVING IT TO THE INDUSTRY ALONE TO -- AS WE POLICE OURSELVES AND SELF REGULATED IT IS JUST NOT WORKING.

>> Braude: WELL, WE ONLY HAVE 15 SECONDS WHEN WILL WE SEE THE RECOMMENDATIONS?

>> WELL, I HOPE IN THE COMING WEEKS.

IT MAY SLIP UNTIL DECEMBER.

I KNOW WHITE HOUSE IS TRYING TO WORK ON SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE THEIR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION WHEN THE TIME COMES.

>> Braude: LOOKING FORWARD TO IT, GOVERNOR PATRICK IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AS A ALWAYS.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, ENGINE, TAKE CARE.

>> Braude: 27 YEARS SINCE WILLIAM ALLEN WAS IMPRISONED AND CONVICTED OF FELONY MURDER FOR A KILLING THAT EVERYONE AGREES HE WAS PRESENT FOR BUT DID NOT COMMIT.

AND LAST MONTH HE FINALLY GOT A STEP CLOSER TO FREEDOM WHEN THE MASSACHUSETTS PAROLE BOARD UNANIMOUSLY VOTED TO RECOMMEND HIS LIFE SENTENCE BE COMMUTED WITH SUPPORT FROM THE DA WHO PROSECUTED HIM AND MUCH OF THE VICTIM'S FAMILY.

BUT THE FINAL DECISION STILL RESTS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOVERNOR.

IN JANUARY OF '94 ALLEN AND HIS FRIEND ROLANDO PURVIS ARMED WITH KNIVES WENT TO A HOME OF PURVIS BESTER AND PLANNING TO ROB HIM, PURR I HAVE STABBED HIM SEVERALS TIMES BOTH MEN WERE ARRESTED AND ALTHOUGH ALLEN HAD BEEN IN ANOTHER ROOM DURING THE STABBING AND DID NOT PARTICIPATE THEY WERE BOTH CHARGED WITH MURDER UNDER STATE LAW AT THE TIME.

PURR I HAVE PLED GUILTY TO SECOND-DEGREE MURDER CHARGES AND RELEASED ON PAROLE MORE THAN A DECADE AGO.

BUT ALLEN REFUSE ADD PLEA DEAL AND CONVICTED OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER UNDER EXISTING LAW AND SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE, HE WAS 20 YOORSZ OLD WHEN HE WAS JAILED FOR THE CRIME.

SHE NOW 47 AND OBVIOUSLY HAS SPENT MORE THAN HALF OF HIS LIFE BEHIND BARS.

AS A RESULT OF THAT LAW, AS HIS CO-COUNSEL RETIRED MASSACHUSETTS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ROBERT ACCORDING TO, CORDY TOLD ME ON THIS SHOW BACK IN JUNE.

>> MR. ALLEN WAS A YOUNG MAN, COULDN'T COME TO GRIPS WITH THE FACT THAT THE LAW THEN MADE HIM AS CULPABLE BECAUSE HE WAS AN ACCOMPLICE IN A FELONY, AND DOES IT MAKE ANY SENSE LOOKING BACK ON IT, IN THIS CASE, NO.

BUT HOPEFULLY THE COMMUTATION PROCESS WILL HELP RIGHT THE WRONG.

>> Braude: AS I SAID ALTHOUGH THE BOARD HAS SINCE VOTED UNANIMOUSLY IN SUPPORT OF COMMUTATION IN THIS CASE, NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PRECEDENT FOR IT ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

THE LAST TIME MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR ORDERED A COMMUTATION WAS 2015 UNDER MY LAST GUEST TOGETHER GOVERNOR PAT I CAN TRICK AND BEFORE THAT NOT SINCE 1997, FOR THE MANY PUSHING FOR IT AROUND THIS TIME IS PATRIOT SAFETY DEVIN MCCOURTY WHO HAS BEEN AN OUTSPOKEN ADVOCATE FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES FOR YEARS.

HE JOINS ME NOW, DEVIN, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> LIKEWISE, MAN, I APPRECIATE YOU HAVING ME ON TODAY.

>> Braude: HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE EFFORT TO FREE WILLIAM ALLEN TO BEGIN WITH?

>> YEAH, LIKE YOU JUST MENTIONED OVER THE LAST FEW CAREERS, JUST BEING INVOLVED IN A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT THINGS, A FRIEND OF MINE REACHED OUT AND TOLD ME ABOUT WILLIAM'S CASE, DID IT ORGANICALLY CAME FROM AN OPPORTUNITY TO JUMP ON A ZOOM CALL WITH ONE OF HIS LAWYERS, CHRIS, JANINE WHO IS DIRECTOR AT MCAN AND BROTHER WILLIAM DICKERSON FROM INTERFAITH IN BROCKTON, WE ALL JUST TALKED AND THEY TOLD ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WILLIAMS AND EVERYTHING KIND OF TOOK OFF FROM THERE.

>> Braude: YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO HIM MORE THAN JUST THAT ISSUES TIME.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND ABOUT THE MAN YOU MET ON THAT -- THOSE ZOOM CALLS?

>> YEAH.

I WOULD SAY FIRST CONVERSATION JUST STUCK OUT TO ME, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, I THINK HERE WE ARE YOU KNOW, IT IS 2020 AND I WAS ABLE TO ZOOM IN TO A PRISON AND GET OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO HIM AND WE SPENT YOU KNOW, MORE THAN AN HOUR AND WE REALLY ONLY TALKED ABOUT HIS VISION.

I THINK, THE THINGS HE WANTS TO DO, WE TALKED ABOUT HIS CHILDHOOD AND THEN FROM THERE ON WE GOT ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO CATCH UP YOU KNOW, AND TALK ABOUT FAMILY, TALK ABOUT HOW HE WAS DOING, HOW I AM ACTUALLY SCHEDULED TO TALK TO HIM LATER THIS WEEK.

AND FOR ME IT JUST HAS BEEN AWESOME TO GET TO KNOW HIM, YOU KNOW, JUST NOT JUST OUT HERE BUT GETTING TO KNOW HIM AS A PERSON.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, AT THE JUNE HEARING, HERE IS PART OF WHAT WILLIAM ALLEN HAD TO SAY.

HE SAID I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO FORGET WHAT I HAVE DONE.

I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT IS NOT WHO I AM TODAY AND IF I AM GIVEN THE CHANCE AT FREEDOM I WANT TO MAKE GOOD FOOTPRINTS FOR CHILDREN OF COLOR TO FOLLOW BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE SAME FOOTPRINTS I DID.

DID THAT RING TRUE TO YOU FROM YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH WILLIAM ALLEN?

>> THAT'S ALL HE SPOKE ABOUT DOING, IS GETTING OUT OF PRISON.

I ASKED HIM THAT QUESTION AS WE RACKED UP OUR FIRST SESSION TALKING AND ASKED HIM WHAT HE WANTED WHEN HE GOT OUT.

AND THAT'S THE ONLY THING HE SPOKE ABOUT, HELPING KIDS NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE HE MADE AND STEERING THEM CLEAR OF ANY TROUBLE AND STAYING FOCUSED ON THE GOALS HE SET FOR HIMSELF BEFORE CHOOSING THEIR OWN PATH.

>> Braude: WHILE DO -- WHY DO YOU THINK, I AM SURE YOU WERE APPROACHED BY A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE CRIMINAL JUST SYSTEM WHO BELIEVE THEY WERE DONE WRONG OR DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE.

WHY DO YOU THINK ALLEN IN PARTICULAR STOOD OUT TO YOU, DEVIN?

>> I JUST THINK SOME THINGS JUST KIND OF ALIGN AND MATCH UP, YOU KNOW, NOT DOING ANYTHING I HAVE DONE OR WHAT WILLIAMS HAS DONE BUT I JUST THINK AT THE POINT OF MY LIFE AND THE PEOPLE WHO REACHED OUT, IT WAS AN INSTANT CONNECTION.

LIKE YOU SAID, IT IS TOUGH SOMETIMES WITH BALANCE AND DIFFERENT DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES YOU IS YOU HAVE BUT THEN ALSO TAKING ON AND TRYING TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE OUT.

BUT I FEEL LIKE GOD ALIGNED ME WITH WILLIAMS' CASE AND I THINK IT HAS BEEN A PERFECT MATCH OF TRYING TO HELP HIM AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO SEE HIM FREE SOME DAY.

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU YOU A LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR, WHY SHOULD WILLIAM ALLEN BE A FREEMAN, DEVIN MCCOURTY?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS IS HE HAS SO MUCH TO GIVE TO SOCIETY AND TO OUR COMMUNITY.

I THINK WE HAVE A MAN WHO HAS BEEN LOCKED AWAY FOR 27 YEARS AND ALL HE HAS DONE, WHILE BEING INSIDE IS HELP OTHERS YOU KNOW, BEING THAT BRIDGEWATER STATE HOSPITAL AND HELPING DIFFERENT INMATES AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE GOING THROUGH DIFFERENT MENTAL ISSUES AND YOU KNOW, EVEN WHEN I GOT INVOLVED HAD A CORRECTIONAL OFFICER REACH OUT BY HERSELF, JUST CHOSE TO DM ME AND TELL ME A STORY ABOUT HOW WILLIAMS SAVED HER ONE TIME AND I THINK THAT IS SPEAKS VOLUME OF A MAN'S CHARACTER WHO IS LOCKED INSIDE, REALLY WITH NO WAY OF SEEING FREEDOM, LIFE WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE AND ALL HE DID WAS GIVE HIS LIFE TO OTHER PEOPLE.

THOSE ARE THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WE NEED OUT IN THE COMMUNITY AND MAKING A DIFFERENCE RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, I WANT DO READ TO YOU FROM GOVERNOR BAKER'S OWN CLEMENCY GUIDELINES.

THESE ARE RELEASED AT THE BEGINNING OF FEBRUARY OF 2020, IT SAYS, IT IS INTENDED TO SERVE AS A STRONG MOTIVATION FOR CONFINED PERSONS TO UTILIZE AVAILABLE RESOURCES FOR SELF DEVELOPMENT AND SELF IMPROVEMENT AND AS AN INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO BECOME LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS AND A RETURN TO SOCIETY.

I MEAN FROM WHAT I KNOW FROM YOU AND JUSTICE ACCORDING TO AT THIS ABOUT WILLIAM CORDY HE FITS THAT BUT IT SEEMS TO HE UNLESS THE GOVERNOR STARTS GRANTING COME CANNATION TO SOME PEOPLE, THE INCENTIVE HIS OWN GUIDELINES TALK ABOUT DISAPPEAR.

THERE ISN'T THAT SAME CAN INCENTIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CONFINED TO ACT IN THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO ACT IF THERE ISN'T SOME, SOME POSSIBLE REWARD AT THE END OF TIME.

>> YEAH.

AND I AGREE WITH YOU.

AND I THINK THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS A GREAT TEAM OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, I LOOK AT DISTRICT ATTORNEY CRUZ WHO HAS RECOMMENDED WILLIAM -- PARDON BE RECOMMENDED.

HE, I AM NOT THAT EDUCATED ON THINGS LIKE THIS BUT HE HAS THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO LEAN ON AND I THINK HE WILL MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION AND SEND WILLIAM HOME.

>> Braude: AND I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR FROM WHAT I HAVE READ AND FROM HAVING SPOKEN AGAIN TO JUSTICE ACCORDING TO AT THIS.

>> CORDY A FEW MONTHS AGO, ALLEN TAKES FULL RESPONSIBILITY THCH IS NOT ONE OF THESE THINGS WHERE HE SAID I WASN'T THERE, I WASN'T RESPONSIBILITY -- RESPONSIBLE, THAT SORT OF THING BUT IT JUST SEEMS TO HE THAT WHEN THE GUY WHO EVERYBODY ACKNOWLEDGES WAS THE ACTUAL KILLER, HAS BEEN OUT OF JAIL FOR MORE THAN A DECADE AND THE MAN WHO DIDN'T COMMIT THE MURDER IS POTENTIALLY IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.

IS THERE NOT EVEN, IF ALLEN HADN'T REFORMED AND TURNED HIS LIFE AROUND?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT'S WHY CLEMENCY IS AVAILABLE, THAT'S WHY IT IS THERE, FOR CASES LIKE THIS WHEREAS WE LOOK BACK AT IT 27 YEARS LATER AND THE IDEA OF A JOINT VENTURE AND A LAW LIKE THAT, BEING ABLE TO RIGHT THAT WRONG IS WHY CLEMENCY EXISTS AND I THINK LIKE YOU JUST SAID, THIS IS A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO RIGHT THAT WRONG AND TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT YOU KNOW, HAS BEEN SO HORRIFIC FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE INVOLVED, TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF HOPE AND SOME TYPE OF BETTER ENDING THAN BEING STUCK IN PRISON FOR THE REST OF WILLIAMS' LIFE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH I THINK ANY STUDENT OF ANY OF THIS KNOWS, OR EVEN A CASUAL OBSERVER KNOWS THAT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN IS A GREAT DETERMINANT OF HOW SERIOUS ANY CHARGES ARE AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL, HOW LONG SOMEONE SENTENCES, NEITHER JUSTICE CORDY OR YOU SO FAR THINK RACE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE IN THIS BETTER AT ALL.

IS THAT BECAUSE YOU THINK IT IS NOT?

>> NO, I THINK RACE IS IN THE FABRIC OF YOU OUR COUNTRY, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, LAWS AND POLICIES HAVE BEEN CREATED 0 THROUGH THE YEARS THAT MAINTAIN AND ARE STILL THERE AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THROUGH THESE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AND OVER TIME SOME OF THOSE LAWS AND POLICIES HAVE TRIED TO BE REMEDIED, BUT I THINK YOU KNOW, FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FIGHT THESE FIGHTS AND TOUGH CRIMINAL JUSTICE, WE UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS ALREADY INHERENTLY THERE AND I FEEL LIKE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING ON THE GROUND, THEIR JOB IS TO TRY TO FIX THAT, NOT ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT IT BUT JUST GOING ABOUT CORRECTING THOSE THINGS AND TRYING MAKE A DIFFERENCE THAT WAY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I READ, DEVIN, YOU SOLICITED ASSISTANCE, A SIGN ON TO THESE LETTERS FROM A NUMBER OF YOUR TEAM MATES, COACHES INCLUDING THE HEAD COACH BELICHICK AND A COUPLE OF DOZEN DID SIGN ON.

WAS IT A HARD SELL?

DID YOU DO IT BECAUSE THEY ASKED OR DID THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY WERE CONVINCED THIS WAS A JUST OUTCOME FOR WILLIAM ALLEN?

>> WHAT I I LOVE ABOUT THE WHOLE PROCESS, I DIDN'T ASK.

EVERY MONDAY WE HAVE DIFFERENT MEETINGS, SOCIAL JUSTICE MEETINGS WHERE WE TRY EDUCATE OURSELVES AND THE TEAM, ALL THINGS THAT GO ON AND WE DECIDED YOU KNOW, A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO THAT I WOULD GET TO PRESENT WILLIAM ALLEN'S CASE AND WHAT WAS GOING ON AND YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF ALL OF THESE MEETINGS WE TRY TO TALK ABOUT YOU KNOW, WHAT PEOPLE CAN DO TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR TO HELP OUT AND I JUST SPOKE ABOUT HOW I WROTE A LETTER TO GOVERNOR BAKER AND HOW YOU KNOW, A COUPLE NOW SAND PEOPLE DID THAT AND THE COACHES WERE LIKE ALL RIGHT THIS IS ON, THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO AND SOME PLAYERS, EVERYONE WANTED TO GET INVOLVED AND I THINK THAT WAS THE BEST THING ABOUT PRESENTING THAT WAS OVER THESE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OUR TEAM HAS GONE FROM NOT REALLY BEING AWARE TO FULLY BEING INVOLVED AND THOUSAND BEEN BEING A PART OF THE DIFFERENCE AND MAKING CHANGES.

.. >> Braude: THAT IS REALLY GOOD TO HERE.

BEFORE YOU GO, I KNOW YOU HAVE HEARD THIS THOUSANDS OF TYPES.

DO, DO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, ATHLETES, PERFORMERS, SHOULD SHUT UP AND SING, SHUT UP AND DRIBBLE, SHUT UP AND PLAY BALL, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE?

>> I SAY THAT MAKES NO SENSE.

I THINK ANYBODY WITH ANY TYPE OF INFLUENCE HAS A PLATFORM, HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, WHETHER THAT IS IN CHARITY WORK AND TRYING TO FIND CURES TO CANCER OR DIFFERENT DISEASES LIKE THAT, WHETHER THAT IS SPEAKING UP FOR CHILDREN WHO DON'T GET THE SAME RESOURCES WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION OR 0 SPEAKING UP FOR POVERTY, HOMELESSNESS, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE THIS WHEN WE SEE IT WHEN NATIONAL DISASTERS HAPPEN SO WHY NOT TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN I INHERENTLY WRONG IN OUR COUNTRY FOR SO LONG AND TRYING HELP THOSE WHO YOU KNOW, WERE BORN WITH LESS RIGHT AWAY AND I THINK ATHLETES AND ENTERTAINERS, A LOT OF TIMES HAVE GONE THROUGH THEIR OWN STRUGGLES AND CREATE DIFFERENT PASSIONS INSIDE OF THEM AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT MAKES OUR COUNTRY SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO GREAT IS THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THEMSELVES AND WHAT THEY HAVE AND WHAT THEY CAN DO.

THEY WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR THE FUTURE GENERATIONS THAT COME AFTER THEM.

AND I AM JUST HAPPY TO BE A PART OF THAT AND HAVE GOTTEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN FROM A LOT OF OTHER MEN AND WOMEN.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

DEVIN MCCOURTY THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR 0 TIME AND GOOD LUCK WITH THIS WILLIAM ALLEN MATTER.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE YOU GUYS ALWAYS BEING INVOLVED.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR THE NIGHT.

TOMORROW STUDENTS AND PARENTS ARE CALLING ON WELLESLEY SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS TO TAKE A STRONGER STANCE AGAINST BULLYING AFTER WHAT THEY SAY HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE RECENT VIOLENT INCIDENTS.

>> I WILL BE JOINED BY THE MOTHER OF ONE YOUNG BIRACIAL STUDENTS WHO SAYS SHE HAS BEEN TARGETED WITH LITTLE RESPONSE FROM THE SCHOOL.

THAT IS TOMORROW AT 7:00, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

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