>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," A NEW GBH NEWS INVESTIGATION DELVES INTO THE TROUBLING VOLUME OF HUMAN LABOR TRAFFICKING IN THIS STATE, MUCH OF IT GOING ON IN PLAIN SIGHT AND MOST OF THE TRAFFICKERS GETTING AWAY WITH IT GBH NEWS' JENIFER MCKIM AND CATHERINE PIEDAD, A LABOR TRAFFICKING SURVIVOR TURNED ADVOCATE JOIN ME ON WHAT STATE LEADERS, AND THE REST OF US, CAN DO TO STOP IT.

THEN, LATER, JOURNALIST ANAND GIRIDHARADAS, ON HIS NEW BOOK "THE PERSUADERS," AN INSIDER ACCOUNT OF THE ACTIVISTS, POLITICIANS AND EVERYDAY AMERICANS ON THE FRONT LINE OF PRESERVING OUR DEMOCRACY.

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: TWO WOBURN MEN ARE FACING FEDERAL HUMAN TRAFFICKING CHARGES FOR ALLEGEDLY SMUGGLING BRAZILIANS INTO THE U.S., AND THEN FORCING THEM TO WORK LONG HOURS AT A PAIR OF RESTAURANTS IN THE CITY, FOR VERY LITTLE PAY.

IT'S AN ALARMING STORY.

BUT FOR ADVOCATES OF LABOR TRAFFICKING VICTIMS?

IT'S HARDLY NEWS.

SINCE 2016, NEARLY 200 PEOPLE IN MASSACHUSETTS HAVE REACHED OUT TO THE NATIONAL HUMAN TRAFFICKING HOTLINE TO REPORT ALLEGATIONS OF FORCED LABOR AND AS A NEW INVESTIGATION FROM THE GBH NEWS' CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING LAYS OUT, THIS IS LIKELY A VAST UNDERCOUNT.

>> MOST PEOPLE HAVE INTERACTED WITH SOMEONE WHO IS BEING TRAFFICKED AND DON'T REALIZE IT.

THINK OF IT MORE AS SOMEONE WHO IS BEING FORCED TO WORK IN TERRIBLE CONDITIONS, USUALLY DANGEROUS CONDITIONS, FOR UNFAIR OR NO PAY.

AND THEY CAN'T LEAVE.

A FEW YEARS BACK, ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY ESTABLISHED AN ANTI-HUMAN TRAFFICKING TASK FORCE, AND MORE THAN A DECADE AGO, THE STATE PASSED A LAW AIMED AT PROSECUTING PERPETRATORS AND SUPPORTING SURVIVORS.

BUT THE GBH NEWS' INVESTIGATION FOUND THERE HASN'T BEEN A SINGLE FORCED LABOR CONVICTION SINCE THAT LAW PASSED IN 2011.

THAT INCLUDES THE SO-CALLED "EMPLOYERS" OF CATHERINE PIEDAD, WHO SPENT MONTHS WORKING FOR A FAMILY IN NEWTON IN 2014, HOPING TO EARN MONEY TO SEND BACK TO HER CHILDREN IN THE PHILIPPINES.

INSTEAD, THEY TREATED HER LIKE THEIR PROPERTY, BUT WERE NEVER PROSECUTED.

CATHERINE PIEDAD JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH GBH NEWS DEPUTY INVESTIGATIONS EDITOR JENIFER MCKIM.

>> Braude: CATHERINE, IT'S GREAT TO MEET YOU, AND JENIFER, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT SEX TRAFFICKING.

YOU'VE DONE SPECTACULAR WORK.

I WOULD HAZARD TO GUESS VERY FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT LABOR TRAFFICKING.

CAN YOU FILL IN SOME BLANKS THAT WERE LEFT THERE?

>> THANKS, JIM.

IT'S TRUE, I'VE WRITTEN A LOT OF STORIES ON TRAFFICKING, AND WE FOUND THAT LABOR TRAFFICKING IS EVEN FARTHER UNDERGROUND, AND PEOPLE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE, AS YOU JUST HEARD THE LAWYER TALK ABOUT, THAT ARE WORKING AS HOUSE CLEANERS, WORKING IN CONSTRUCTION, WORKING IN THE FIELDS, AND ALL DIFFERENT WAYS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

AND BECAUSE WE DON'T REALLY -- BECAUSE IT IS ACTUAL JOBS, IT IS MUCH HARDER TO UNDERSTAND THAN SEE.

>> Braude: BUT I DON'T MEAN TO OVERSTATE IT, BUT THE STORIES I READ, AND AFTER READING YOURS, THIS IS A VARIATION ON SLAVERY IN THE 21st CENTURY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THEY CALL IT MODERN-DAY SLAVERY, PEOPLE WORKING FOR ZERO OR VERY LITTLE PAY, LONG HOURS, UNABLE TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES.

IT IS VERY TROUBLING.

>> Braude: IF YOU'RE A NANNY IN THE PHILIPPINES AND YOU WERE BROUGHT HERE TO WORK FOR A FAMILY IN NEWTON, YOU WORKED 16 HOURS A DAY.

>> 6:00 A.M. TO 11:00 P.M. >> Braude: AND WHAT DO YOU DO ON YOUR FROW DAY?

>> I STAY IN THE BASEMENT BECAUSE I'M NOT ALLOWED TO GO OUT.

>> Braude: YOU HAD TO STAY IN THE BASEMENT AND THIS FAMILY SAID YOU CAN'T LEAVE THE HOUSE?

>> YES.

>> Braude: DID THEY TAKE YOUR PASSPORT?

>> YES.

>> Braude: HOW LONG DID THIS GO ON?

>> LIKE TWO MONTHS THEY TOOK MY PASSPORT, AND WE HAD THIS CONVERSATION THEY'RE NOT PAYING ME A SALARY.

>> Braude: THEY PAID YOU NOTHING?

>> NO.

>> Braude: ARE YOU SCARED?

>> I'M SCARED BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Braude: AND YOU EVENTUALLY CALLED 9-1-1, AM I NOT RIGHT?

>> YES.

THAT'S THE EMERGENCY CALL ON MY PHONE.

>> Braude: AND WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE -- WHAT DID THE POLICE DO?

>> THEY CAME TO THE HOUSE AFTER, LIKE, FIVE MINUTES OF CONVERSATION, YEAH.

>> Braude: AND DID THEY END UPBRINGING CHARGES AGAINST THE FAMILY THAT HAD BASICALLY KEPT YOU CAPTIVE IN THE BASEMENT OF THEIR HOUSE?

>> NO.

BECAUSE THEY SAID IT IS A LABOR DISPUTE.

>> Braude: A LABOR DISPUTE.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MOST TROUBLING ABOUT YOUR STORY, NOT ONLY THAT SO MUCH IS GOING ON, JEN, SORT OF UNDER THE RADAR, BUT IT IS NOT REALLY UNDER THE RADAR.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE SOUND FROM YOUR PIECE FROM STATE SENATOR LYDIA EDWARDS FROM BOSTON ON TRAFFICKING, FOLLOWED BY A LAWYER WHO REPRESENTS ANOTHER SURVIVOR BY THE EMPLOYER OF THAT SURVIVOR.

HERE IT IS.

>> IT'S MODERN DAY SLAVERY FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE.

LIKE, YOU DON'T GET TO BE A SLAVER IN 2022 AND WRITE A CHECK AND SETTLE THAT.

YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS VERY FRUSTRATING.

IT DIDN'T WORK BECAUSE UPON FIRST NOTIFICATION THAT THE A.G.'S OFFICE WAS LOOKING INTO THIS AND THE EMPLOYERS PRACTICES WERE ABOUT TO BE EXPOSED, THEY IMMEDIATELY FLED THE COUNTRY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, SO CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, A FEDERAL ANTI-TRAFFICKING LAW IN 2000, A STATE ANTI-TRAFFICKING LAW IN 2011.

THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS, AND THE BAD NEWS IS: VERY FEW CHARGES BROUGHT, AND I THINK YOU REPORT NOT ONE SINGLE CONVICTION ON THE STATE LEVEL AND ONE FROM THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

WHY AND WHY?

WHY SO FEW CHARGES AND WHY SO FEW CONVICTIONS?

>> AS YOU HEARD FROM CATHERINE, FOR ONE THING, THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT WHETHER IT IS TRAFFICKING OR WAGE AN HOUR VIOLATION -- >> Braude: HOW IS THAT CONFUSING?

HOW IS IT CONFUSING?

I DON'T MEAN TO ARGUE WITH YOU.

YOU WORK SIX DAYS FROM 6:00 A.M. TO 11:00 P.M., AND YOUR SEVENTH DAY YOU'RE KEPT CAPTIVE -- >> AND SHE WASN'T PAID.

>> Braude: AND NOT PAID, EXACTLY.

>> IT IS ASTONISHING TO ME, AND WE SPOKE TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, MAURA HEALEY, WHO IS VERY INTERESTED IN PROSECUTING THESE CASES, BUT THERE ARE CHALLENGES.

THERE ARE ALSO SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN RESCUED OR ESCAPED, AND REALLY JUST WANT SOME RESTITUTION AND TO GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES OR THEY HAVE CERTAIN ATTACHMENT TO THE CHILDREN THAT THEY WERE TAKING CARE OF.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

THERE ARE SOME CASES ONGOING.

THERE IS A CASE COMING UP IN THE NEW YEAR, LIKELY, RELATED TO SEX TRAFFICKING BEING FILED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.

BUT IT IS PRETTY STUNNING.

>> Braude: IT IS ALMOST THE OPPOSITE -- I'M NOT TELLING YOU SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW -- BUT WHEN I HEAR YOUR STORY, IT IS ALMOST THE OPPOSITE OF DETERRENCE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING A FATHER WHO VERY MOVINGLY LOST HIS DAUGHTER AT PARKLAND WHO WAS HERE THE OTHER NIGHT TALKING ABOUT WHY HE BELIEVES IN THE DEATH PENALTY, BECAUSE OF DETERRENCE, AND THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT IS WHEN NO ONE IS PROSECUTED, OR YOU GO FREE, THERE IS NO DISINCENTIVE TO TREAT PEOPLE LIKE CATHERINE WAS TREATED BECAUSE AT THE VERY WORST, YOU PAY A FINE -- >> EXACTLY.

>> Braude: I KNOW MAUR MAURA HEALEY CARES ABOUT THIS AND.

>> SHE JUST STARTED A HUMAN TRAFFICKING UNIT -- >> Braude: SHE BEING RACHAEL ROLLINS?

>> YEP.

>> Braude: CATHERINE, YOU'RE BECOMING AN ADVOCATE FOR PEOPLE WHO SUFFERED IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS LIKE YOURS.

WHAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT YOU PUT OUT IN YOUR WORK?

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS OUT -- WHEN I GET OUT FROM MY EMPLOYER, IT IS REALLY HARD.

I DIDN'T HAVE NO ONE.

BUT WHEN THE PROCESS OF THE PEOPLE HELPING ME -- LOTS OF GOOD PEOPLE ARE HELPING ME ALONG THE WAY, SO I REALLY NEED TO PASS THAT ALONG.

AND ALSO HELPING PEOPLE -- YOU CAN SEE THAT WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE BECAUSE OF YOUR HELP.

IT IS A REALLY GOOD FEELING.

>> Braude: SO YOU ARE HOPING TO PROVIDE A SUPPORT NETWORK FOR PEOPLE -- >> YES.

>> Braude: -- SO THAT WHEN THEY'RE FREE, THEY CAN LIVE, NOT JUST THE FREEDOM THAT THEY DESERVE, BUT ALSO HAVE WHAT THEY NEED TO MAKE A TRANSITION.

>> YES.

>> Braude: WHO HELPED YOU?

WHO WAS THERE FOR YOU WHEN YOU FINALLY WERE FREE?

>> I AM REALLY GRATEFUL THAT SHE IS MY LAWYER.

AND THE BAKITA'S HOUSE.

>> SHE WAS PUT UP WITH A HOUSE OF NUNS.

>> YES.

IT IS A SAFE HOUSE RUN BY THE NUNS.

>> Braude: REALLY?

WHAT DID THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> OF COURSE, IT IS LIKE A HOUSE FOR US, AND IT IS HELPING TO SUPPORT US.

SO WHEN WE'RE REALLY IN A DOWN TIME OF OUR LIFE, THEY ARE THE ONES TO HELP US, TO LIFT IT UP.

SO, YEAH, WE'RE SO GRATEFUL.

>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT CATHERINE TOLD ME -- AND OUR INTERVIEW IS THAT THE NUN'S HOUSE IS NOW CLOSED AND SHE IS VERY CONCERNED THAT THERE IS NO PLACE FOR TRAFFICKED PEOPLE TO GO.

>> Braude: I HOPE YOUR COURAGE WILL CONVINCE SOME OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO SPEND SOME DOUGH.

I DON'T WANT TO BE SO HORRIBLE ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

EXPLAIN WHAT THIS APP IS AND WHAT THE GOAL IS?

>> I THINK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, WITH THE BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW, GOT TOGETHER TO CREATE SOME APP FOR ACTUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT IN THE FIELD, EITHER LAW ENFORCEMENT OR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAFFICKED, TO BASICALLY LOOK AT IT AND ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS BECAUSE THERE ARE QUESTIONS -- SO MANY PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND IT, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE FOUND, THERE IS JUST NOT ENOUGH TRAINING.

>> Braude: YOU MEAN TO EVEN RECOGNIZE IT?

>> TO EVEN UNDERSTAND IT IS TRAFFICKING BECAUSE IN SOME STATES THEY MANDATE TRAINING FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY BE IN CONTACT.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN THAT TYPE OF THING HERE.

EVEN THOUGH WHEN YOU PASSED THIS LAW A DECADE AGO, THAT THERE BE SOME KIND OF TRAINING.

AT THIS POINT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO FIND OUT, AND THEY MISUNDERSTAND IT AS A WAGE AND HOUR VIOLATION OR THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEONE CAN'T LEAVE THEIR HOME OR JOB.

>> Braude: DO YOU THINK THIS APP WILL HELP TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE HOW TO RECOGNIZE SITUATIONS LIKE YOURS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE RESULT?

>> Braude: YES.

I'M GLAD YOU SAID THAT.

THAT'S WHAT IT IS CALLED.

I'M GUESSING THIS IS NOT THE END OF THE LINE, I KNOW YOU, JEN, AND I ASSUME THERE IS MORE REPORTING TO COME?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS A ONGOING SERIES.

TRAFFICING INC FORCED PEOPLE TO COME OUT.

AND THERE ARE LABOR CONDITIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE WHEN THEY FINALLY ESCAPE THEIR TRAFFICKERS, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY OBSTACLES IN FINDING A WAY TO SURVIVE.

THAT WILL BE OUR NEXT PIECE NEXT WEEK.

>> Braude: I DON'T WANT TO DO A SPOILER, BUT IS THERE SPECIAL SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LURED INTO THE COUNTRY UNDER THESE FALSE PRETENSES, AND THEN KEPT LIKE CATHERINE WAS?

OR DO THEY JUST FACE DEPORTATION?

>> 20 YEARS AGO, WHEN THEY PASSED THIS HUMAN TRAFFICKING LAW, THEY CREATED A VEHICLE FOR PEOPLE LIKE CATHERINE TO STAY HERE.

IT IS CALLED THE "T" VISA, BUT AS OUR REPORTING WILL SHOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF OBSTACLES TO GET IT AND A LOT OF TIME AND ISSUES.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NEXT WEEK.

>> Braude: GREAT REPORTING.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Braude: I'M REALLY GREAT TO MEET YOU AND I ADMIRE YOUR COURAGE, CATHERINE.

JENIFER AND CATHERINE.

THANK YOU.

NEXT UP, IF YOU'RE LIKE ME AND ARE CONVINCED EVERY ELECTION DENIER, EVERY IMMIGRANT HATER, EVERY CLIMATE CHANGE SKEPTIC IS LOCKED INTO THEIR POSITION, WITH MINDS UNABLE TO BE CHANGED, AND AS A RESULT, DEMOCRACY HANGS BY A THREAD-- WHO YOU GONNA CALL?

ANAND GIRIDHARADAS.

HIS NEW BOOK SUGGESTS THERE MAY BE A PATH OUT OF THE WILDERNESS.

IT'S CALLED, "THE PERSUADERS: AT THE FRONT LINES OF THE FIGHT FOR HEARTS, MINDS, AND DEMOCRACY."

ANAND IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE BESTSELLERS "WINNERS TAKE ALL," "THE TRUE AMERICAN," AND "INDIA CALLING" AND A FORMER FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT AND COLUMNIST FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES."

>> Braude: IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR VEHICLE HAVING ME.

>> Braude: IF I SAY DEMOCRACY IS DOOMED, I HAVE VIRTUALLY NO HOPE, AND YOU SAY WHAT?

>> I SAY, DO YOU PREFER TO BE RULED?

DO YOU PREFER TO BE GOVERNED BY POLITICAL VIOLENCE?

YOU KNOW, FOR MOST OF HUMAN HISTORY, GROUP DECISIONS THAT LANDED IN THE IN-BOXES OF COMMUNITIES WERE RESOLVED THROUGH FORCE OR STRONG MEN.

ONE PERSON IN THE VILLAGE OR STATE OR COUNTRY IS GOING TO MAKE THE DECISION BECAUSE IT IS TOO HARD FOR ALL OF US TO TALK.

THE RADICAL IDEA OF DEMOCRACY, WHICH THE CITY PLAYS A DISPROPORTIONATE ROLE IN THE STORY, IS THE IDEA THAT, NO, NO, INSTEAD OF THE WAY WE HAVE DONE IT FOR MOST OF OUR HISTORY, WE SHOULD TRY THIS THING WHERE WE ALL JUST TALK TO EACH OTHER, 24/7, ARGUE, HAGGLE, NEGOTIATE OVER THE FUTURE, AND WE WILL RESOLVE THESE CHOICES TOGETHER.

IT WAS A CRAZY IDEA WHEN IT WAS ARTICULATED A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

IT HAS BECOME THE NORM, ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE AND SUCCESSFUL IDEAS IN HISTORY.

AT THIS MOMENT, WE ARE GIVING UP ON THAT IDEA THAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF CHANGING MINDS OR BEING CHANGED.

AND I WOULD SAY, THEREFORE, WE'RE GIVING UP ON THE IDEA OF SELF-GOVERNMENT.

>> Braude: SO LET'S TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF YOUR PER PERSUADERS.

WHAT ARE THEY?

>> DEEP CANVASSING IS AN EXPERIMENT NOW HAPPENING ACROSS THIS COUNTRY ON DIFFERENT ISSUES WHERE PEOPLE GO DOOR TO DOOR IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, NEIGHBOR TO NEIGHBOR, THEY GET A LITTLE BIT OF TRAINING ONLINE AND THEY GO AND STAND IN FRONT OF PEOPLE.

AND INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DO THE ONE-MINUTE CANVASSING, HEY, DO YOU HAVE A PLAN TO VOTE, MOVE ON, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH, WHAT DEEP CANVASERS DO IS HANG OUT, THEY STAY, THEY TRY TO KEEP THAT DOOR OPEN 30, 40 MINUTES.

AND WHAT DO THEY DO IN 30, 40 MINUTES?

THEY TRY TO ILLICIT FROM YOU, WITH A LOT OF LISTENING, WHY YOU FEEL THE WAY YOU DO ABOUT IMMIGRANTS, ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE, WHATEVER THE ISSUE IS.

THEY DON'T LIE ABOUT THEIR STANCE, THEY'RE HONEST ABOUT THE FACT THEY FEEL DIFFERENTLY.

THEY DON'T CALL YOU OUT EVERY TIME YOU SAY A THING.

BUT THEN, AND THIS IS THE KEY, THEY START TO MIND YOUR SOURCES OF DISSI DISSIDANCE, YOU SAY YOU FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE, BUT HAVE YOU EVER FELT MARGINALIZED IN YOUR LIFE BECAUSE OF FORCES BEYOND YOUR CONTROL, AND MOST PEOPLE SAY YES.

AND THEN PEOPLE START TO SEE THE CONFLICT WITHIN THEM.

>> Braude: EVERY SINGLE SUCCESS YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR BOOK, I CELEBRATE THAT BUT IT HAS LESS VALUE UNLESS IT IS REPLICABLE.

>> YES, IT IS REPLICABLE.

THEY HAVE FOUND 30 TO 40 MINUTES ON A DOOR AT LARGE SCALE CAN MOVE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF VOTERS AS MUCH OF YEARS OF DIFFUSE SOCIAL CHANGE.

>> Braude: LET'S GO TO ALICIA GARZA, A WOMAN INA A WOMAN IN BLACK LIVES MATTER.

IF YOU OVERWHELM PEOPLE WITH FACTS, AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU WIN OUT.

AND SHE HAS A LINE SHE BORROWED, AND SHE SAYS "PEOPLE FORGET WHAT YOU SAID, PEOPLE FORGET WHAT YOU DID, BUT PEOPLE WILL NEVER FORGET HOW YOU MADE THEM FEEL."

WHAT DID SHE MEAN?

>> SHE IS QUOTING MAYA ANGELOU.

THE POLITICAL LEFT IS VERY GOOD ON FACTS AND FIGURES, IS VERY GOOD ON POLICY, VERY GOT ON THE DATA.

THE PROBLEM IS PEOPLE'S POLITICAL PREFERENCES ARE OFTEN KIND OF EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL FIRST.

AS JEN Z.

WOULD SAY, PEOPLE ARE VOTING ON VIBES.

ALICIA WAS MAKING A PLEAD ON THE LEFT TO SAY OUR MOVEMENT NEEDS TO GIVE PEOPLE A HOME THAT THEY'RE EXCITED ABOUT, THAT MAKES THEM FEEL CARED FOR, AND THE FAR RIGHT IS ACTUALLY VERY GOOD AT GIVING PEOPLE A KIND OF EXUBERANT CONNECTIVE EXPERIENCE, AND THE LEFT IS ALMOST ILLITERATE AT THAT KIND OF APPEAL.

>> Braude: BOB PUTNUM'S LEGENDARY DOWN THE STREET, GIVE THEM A HOME, AND THAT'S BOWL WITH SOMEBODY -- >> AND HERE IS THE IRONY, THE RIGHT DIRECTION WILL PUSH US IN BOWLING ALONE, IT HAS HUNTING CLUBS AND HOME-SCHOOLING ASSOCIATIONS WHERE PARENTS CONNECT -- THE LEFT ACTUALLY HAS NOT INVESTED IN THAT KIND OF PEOPLE TO PEOPLE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL A PART OF SOMETHING.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THE COMMON THREAD?

>> THEY'RE ALL VERY DIFFERENT.

THE BIGGEST COMMON THREAD IS THE MENTAL MODEL ON PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

THIS IS SOMETHING EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO RELATE TO.

I THINK WE ALL KNOW WE ARE INTERNALLY COMPLICATED.

YOU KNOW YOU'RE COMPLICATED.

I KNOW I'M COMPLICATED.

YOU KNOW YOU FEEL OTHER THINGS, ALSO.

WE ALL HAVE A "B" SIDE ON EVERYTHING.

WE DENY, IN A POLARIZED TIME, WE DENY THAT OTHER PEOPLE ON THE FAR SIDE ARE ALSO COMPLICATED.

WHEN WE DO THAT, WE ARE SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT.

YOU'RE SAYING THAT PREJUDICE AGAINST IMMIGRANTS OR TRANS PEOPLE OR WHATEVER, THAT'S THE ONLY STORY ABOUT THEM.

IT IS EMPIRICALLY FALSE, AND IT PUTS YOU IN A POSITION OF HAVING NOTHING TO WORK WITH.

BE EVERYONEEVERYONE IS CONFLICTED, AS BEYONCE SAYS, AND IT BECOMES THE JOB TO WORK WITH THEIR "B" SIDE, TO PULL IT OUT, TO DEVELOP IT AND COMPETE WITH THEIR OUTWARD PREJUDICE OR STANCE.

>> Braude: YOU MAKE CLEAR THAT YOU'RE NOT ARGUING THAT THEY COMPROMISE THEIR PRINCIPLES OR LESSEN THEIR GOALS -- >> IN FACT, THIS BOOK IS INTERVENTION IN THE REIGNING DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

TAKE AN AMBITIOUS GOAL, POUR A TON OF WATER IN IT, AND THE PEOPLE IN PENNSYLVANIA WILL LIKE IT MORE.

AND THEY STILL THINK YOUR A COMMUNIST AND THEN YOU'RE BASE IS NOT EXCITED ABOUT IT.

I'M TRYING TO FLIP THAT ON ITS HEAD, SAYING THAT REPERSUASION IS REACHING OUT AND PATHETICALLY OFFERING THEM TO PEOPLE WHO ARE SKEPTICAL.

>> Braude: THAT BETTER EXPLAINING ALSO INCLUDES PACKAGING.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW WHERE JIMMY KIMMEL SENT PEOPLE OUT ON HOLLYWOOD AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WANTED OBAMACARE OR AFFORDABLE CARE, AND EVERYBODY HATED OBAMACARE, BUT THEY LOVED AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

>> ONE OF MY OBSESSIONS IS MEDICARE FOR ALL, FOR THOSE WHO ADVOCATE FOR IT, I THINK IT SHOULD BE CALLED FREEDOM CARE.

STICK TO THE AMBITIOUS DEMAND, BUT WHY NOT TUG ON THE HEARTSTRINGS OF A DEEPLY FELT AMERICAN VALUE, AND EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE HOW UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE WOULD MAKE THEM FREE, FREE FROM THEIR BOSS, AND PACKAGE IT IN WAYS THAT MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.

>> Braude: JUST DON'T GO TO FREEDOM FRIES.

THAT'S AN HISTORICAL STORY.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES, ONE IN YOUR BOOK, THAT MAKES ME NERVOUS THIS WON'T WORK.

YOU WRITE EXTENSIVELY ABOUT ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, AND YOU MENTION A TWEET SHE SENT OUT.

"JOHN McCAIN'S LEGACY REPRESENTS AN UNPARALLELED DECENCY IN HUMAN SERVICE.

I LEARNED A LOT WITH DEEP FRIENDSHIP TO SENATOR KENNEDY.

HE MEANT SO MUCH.

MY PRAYERS ARE WITH HIS FAMILY."

WHAT WAS THE REACTION TO IT?

>> I THINK MOST PEOPLE WERE FINE WITH IT.

BUT THOSE ON THE LEFT, WERE DISAPPOINTED.

HAVE YOUR ANTI-WAR POLITICS BEEN ABANDONED NOW THAT YOU ENTERED POWER?

>> Braude: EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING THE PROGRESSIVES SHOULD BE DOING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SHE WAS MAINTAINING A VERY CLEAR ANTI-WAR STANCE, BUT MAKING THE KIND OF GESTURE THAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK YOU'RE A REASONABLE, KIND PERSON, WHICH IS IMPORTANT.

AND WHAT HER CRITICS DID NOT UNDERSTAND, THAT I THINK SHE DID, IS SOMETHING I CALL THE ORCHESTRA PRINCIPAL IN THE BOOK.

MAKING CHANGES THAT REQUIRES A TEAM, AND EVERYONE IS PLAYING DIFFERENT ROLES.

AND THERE IS THIS WEIRD OVERTURE, I PLAY THE CELLO, AND YOU PLAY THE OBOE, AND IT IS SOMEONE'S JOB IN THIS ECO-SYSTEM TO THROW SOUP AT A PAINTING.

IT IS SOMEONE ELSE'S JOB TO DO HORSE TRAINING.

RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE.

>> Braude: I WORRY THAT SAYS MAYBE THIS WON'T WORK AS WELL.

I WANT TO PUT UP A POLL.

THIS IS AFTER EVERY SINGLE JANUARY 6 HEARING.

ON EVERY ISSUE, EXACT SAME NUMBERS BEFORE AND AFTER.

6, A LEGITIMATE PROTEST, TRUMP DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE.

I WOULD ARGUE AFTER HAVING READ YOUR BOOK THAT BENNY THOMPSON AND LIZ CHENEY ALMOST FOLLOWED ALL OF THE PRINCIPLES OF YOUR BOOK, USED REPUBLICANS TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE, A BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK.

SO WHY SHOULD THAT NOT DISCOURAGE ME -- >> I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT CHANGED MINDS.

I WOULD SAY IF YOU LOOK MORE BROADLY, THIS NOTION THAT THINGS DON'T CHANGE -- DONALD TRUMP WON THE FIRST TIME AND DID NOT WIN THE SECOND TIME.

SOME PEOPLE WHO SAID YEAH THE FIRST TIME SAID NO THE SECOND TIME.

WE FORGET THIS.

2021's ANTI-VAXXERS ARE VAX -- NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MANY WE GOT VAXXED.

THEY WENT INTO COMMUNITIES AND FIGURED OUT, WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT GETTING VAX VACCINATING.

I THINK IN A DEMOCRACY, WRITING OTHER PEOPLE OFF IS THE WROTE TO MAY TO MAYHEM AND CHAOS AND CIVIL WAR.

>> Braude: CAN YOU DO THAT IN YOUR OWN LIFE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: IT'S HARD.

>> IT IS.

I FELT AN IMPERATIVE TO CHANGE SOME OF THE THINGS I WAS DOING.

SOME OF MY SOCIAL MEDIA BEHAVIOR, WHICH I THINK IS NOT OUT OF KEEPING WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE'S SOCIAL MEDIA BEHAVIOR, WAS NOT ACTUALLY HELPING WITH THE GOALS I SOUGHT.

I FEEL LIKE THERE IS THIS TURNING IN THE CULTURE.

WE WENT IN A VERY INFLAMMATORY DIRECTION IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

MAYBE THIS BOOK IS PART OF TRYING TO PUSH IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

I FELT MYSELF GOING ON THAT JOURNEY.

YOU HAVE TO BRING PEOPLE IN.

AND I THINK IF YOU WANT TO WIN, IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO BE RIGHT OR BE RIGHTEOUS.

HAVE YOU TO CONSTANTLY BE THINKING ABOUT WHO DO I HAVE IN THE CAMP TODAY I DIDN'T HAVE YESTERDAY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO BE YOU WHEN I GROW UP.

YOUR BOOK IS TERRIFIC.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

FINALLY TONIGHT, THE INS AND THE OUTS OF THE THIRD INITIATIVE YOU'LL SEE ON YOUR BALLOT IN THE COMING WEEKS.

RULES IN A FEW DIFFERENT WAYS.

FIRST IT WOULD GRADUALLY DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF LIQUOR LICENSES A SINGLE RETAILER CAN HAVE FOR ITS CHAIN OF STORES, GOING FROM THE CURRENT NINE TO 18 BY THE YEAR 2031.

SECOND, IT WOULD LIMIT THE SO-CALLED ALL ENCASING LICENSES TO SEVEN.

SO IF A RETAILER WANTS TO SELL BEER, WINE, AND HARD LIQUOR, IT COULD ONLY DO THAT AT SEVEN OF ITS 18 LOCATIONS, ASSUMING IT GOT THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF LICENSES.

THIRD, IT WOULD BAN SELF-CHECK OUT FOR ALCOHOL PURCHASES.

FOURTH, IT WOULD MAKE FINES MORE EXPENSIVE FOR RETAILERS THAT SELL THINGS OTHER THAN ALCOHOL IF THEY VIOLATE STATE LAW.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, IT WOULD LET PEOPLE USE OUT OF STATE LICENSES AS PROOF OF AGE TO BUY ALCOHOL.

A YES VOTE WOULD MAKE ALL OF THOSE CHANGES I JUST OUTLINED, AND A NO VOTE WOULD KEEP THINGS AS THEY ARE NOW.

IT IS A COMPROMISE MEASURE, WHILE ALSO ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE PUBLIC WANTS THE CONVENIENCE OF BUYING ALCOHOL IN DIFFERENT PLACES, LIKE GROCERY STORES AND CONVENIENCE STORES.

OPPONENTS ARGUE IT DOES LITTLE TO PROMOTE REAL COMPETITION OR CONSUMER CHOICE, AND THE FINES WOULD UNFAIRLY PENALIZE RETAILERS THAT SELL THINGS OTHER THAN ALCOHOL.

AND TO THAT END, QUESTION THREE, IF IT DOES PASS, AND THE LAWS DO CHANGE, CITIES AND TOWNS STILL GET THE FINAL CHANGE ON WHO GETS A LIQUOR LICENSE IN THEIR JURISDICTION.

IF YOU WANT RETAILERS HAVE MOREMORE OPPORTUNITIES TO SELL LIQUOR, TO CHARGE STORES THAT SELL THINGS BEYOND ALCOHOL MORE IF THEY'RE FINED, AND TO LET PEOPLE USE OUT OF STATE I.D.s TO BUY ALCOHOL, VOTE YES ON QUESTION 30.

IF YOU WANT THEM TO STAY HOW THEY ARE NOW, YOU VOTE NO.

>> BRAUDE: THAT WAS SARAYA WINTERSMITH REPORTING.

WE'LL HAVE ONE MORE EXPLAINER, ON THE FOURTH AND FINAL BALLOT QUESTION-- TOMORROW, HERE ON GBH-2 AND AT GBH-NEWS.ORG.

A REMINDER, EARLY VOTING KICKS OFF ON SATURDAY.

IF YOU PLAN ON VOTING BY MAIL, DON'T FORGET TO REQUEST YOUR BALLOT.

YOUR APPLICATION MUST BE IN TO YOUR LOCAL ELECTION OFFICE BY 5:00 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 1, AND YOUR FILLED OUT BALLOT MUST BE RETURNED TO THAT OFFICE, OR TO A BALLOT DROP BOX OR POSTMARKED BY THE TIME POLLS CLOSE ON ELECTION DAY.

AND IF YOU'RE VOTING THE TRADITIONAL WAY, POLLS WILL BE OPEN FROM 7:00 A.M. TO 8:00 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 8.

FOR MORE INFO, HEAD TO SEC.STATE.MA.US.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S' FOOD WRITERS JUST ADOPTED A FIVE-STAR SYSTEM FOR JUDGING THE REGION'S RESTAURANTS AND "UNIVERSAL FAVORITE," SARMA, IN SOMERVILLE, JUST GOT THEIR FIRST FIVE STAR REVIEW.

JAMES BEARD-NOMINATED CHEF AND CO-OWNER, CASSIE PIUMA JOINS ME WITH SOME OF HER OTHERWORLDLY FOOD.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE, DON'T FORGET ABOUT UKRAINE.