>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," MASSACHUSETTS APPEARS HEADED FOR WALL-TO-WALL DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF STATE GOVERNMENT.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE STATE GOP?

IS THERE A FUTURE FOR THE STATE GOP?

DOES IT EVEN MATTER?

REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR BRUCE TARR AND LASELL POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, PAUL DEBOLE JOIN ME.

THEN, BRISKET SHAWARMA.

HARISSA BBQ.

DUCK SKEWERS.

VENISON-WRAPPED DATES.

ARE YOU SMILING YET?

IT'S ALL AT THE LEGENDARY SARMA IN SOMERVILLE.

OWNER CASSIE PIUMA JOINS ME ON THE LATEST HONOR FOR HER CREATIVE FUSION DISHES AND LUCKY FOR ME, SHE'S BROUGHT PLENTY OF SAMPLES.

>> BRAUDE: ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL, CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS MAY BE FALLING BEHIND THEIR REPUBLICAN COUNTERPARTS IN THE POLLS, BUT IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT STORY HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHERE ALL RECENT SURVEYS HAVE US POISED FOR SINGLE-PARTY RULE.

INCLUDING A NEW MASS INC POLL THAT SHOWS MAURA HEALEY UP BY A WHOPPING 30 POINTS OVER HER REPUBLICAN CHALLENGER FOR GOVERNOR-- GEOFF DIEHL, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER-- WHO AT ONE POINT COULD BE TERMED AN ELECTION DENIER.

BOTH ARE, OF COURSE, VYING TO REPLACE GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER, WHO, IT SEEMS, MAY HAVE MORE IN COMMON WITH HIS LIKELY DEMOCRATIC SUCCESSOR THAN THE HEAD OF HIS OWN PARTY, WHICH HAS SHIFTED FAR TO THE RIGHT IN THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, UNDER MASS G.O.P.

CHAIR, JIM LYONS.

THE INTERNAL DIVISIONS HAVE PROMPTED THE STATE'S REPUBLICAN COMMITTEE TO ASK THE FEDERAL PARTY FOR HELP, WRITING TO REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRWOMAN, RONNA MCDANIEL LATE LAST MONTH, ASKING HER TO "USE HER OFFICE TO INTERVENE WITH LYONS AND END HIS EFFORTS TO DEFEAT OUR LEADING REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE."

THAT CANDIDATE?

ANTHONY AMORE, THE MODERATE REPUBLICAN WHO AT 15 POINTS BEHIND HIS DEMOCRATIC OPPONENT FOR STATE AUDITOR, DIANA DIZOGLIO, IS STILL THE CLOSEST OF ANY OTHER REPUBLICAN RUNNING FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE AND WHO THE STATE PARTY SEEMS HELL BENT ON UNDERMINING.

MIND YOU THIS IS ALL HAPPENING TO THE PARTY OF THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNOR IN AMERICA, REPUBLICAN CHARLIE BAKER.

HERE TO DISCUSS WHAT'S GOING ON AND WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR THE PEOPLE OF MASSACHUSETTS ARE REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR BRUCE TARR, WHO HAS SERVED IN THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATOR FOR 31 YEARS, AND HAS BEEN SERVING AS THE SENATE MINORITY LEADER SINCE 2011; AND PAUL DEBOLE, A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AT LASELL UNIVERSITY, FORMER CAMPAIGN AIDE TO REPUBLICANS LAMAR ALEXANDER AND JOHN MCCAIN.

PAUL AND SNRTD, GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANKS, JIM.

GREAT TO BE WITH BOTH OF YOU.

>> Braude: PAUL, LET ME START WITH YOU.

IF THE POLLS ARE RIGHT, IT APPEARS WE'RE 19 DAYS AWAY FOR A TOTAL REPUBLICAN BLOWOUT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

IS THAT A FAIR ASSESSMENT?

>> I THINK THAT'S PRETTY ACCURATE.

>> Braude: WELL, THAT WAS TO THE POINT.

SENATOR, YOU'RE ONE OF THE, I BELIEVE IT IS, THREE REPUBLICAN SENATORS, 28 REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE, WHICH IS STILL TOTAL MAYBE 15% OF THE TOTAL LEGISLATURE.

THE POLLS SUGGEST NOT ONE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICER WILL END UP BEING A REPUBLICAN WHEN WE GO TO BED ON NOVEMBER 8th.

IS THAT THE WAY YOU SEE IT SO FAR?

>> WELL, WHAT I THINK JIM IS THE ONLY POLLS THAT COUNT ARE THE ONES TAKEN ON ELECTION DAY.

>> Braude: I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE, BY THE WAY.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW THAT, BUT GO AHEAD.

>> I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED, JIM.

BUT CERTAINLY THE NUMBERS DON'T LOOK GOOD NOW FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, BUT THAT IS SOMETHING AGAIN THAT CAN CHANGE.

>> Braude: OF COURSE.

>> THAT'S WHY THE ELECTION RUNS ALL THE WAY TILL NOVEMBER 8th NOVEMBER 8th AND DOESN'T GET EXECUTED ALL IN ONE DAY.

>> Braude: THAT'S THE WAY THINGS ARE TRENDING.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

I THINK PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY'RE USED TO IN THIS STATE FOR THE LAST YEARS IS A STRONG DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE WITH A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SORT OF AS A CHECK.

WHY ARE WE FACING WHAT WE APPEAR TO BE FACING IN 19 DAYS?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE A GOOD ANSWER FOR THAT, JIM, EXCEPT TO SAY IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT WE DO HAVE SOME DIVISIONS AND IT SEEMS TO ME IF THERE WAS MORE UNITE AMONG THE CANDIDATES AND THE PARTY, WE COULD HAVE BEEN MOUNTING STRONGER EFFORTS.

THAT BEING SAID, I THINK THERE'S STILL A GOOD MESSAGE BEING PUT FORWARD BY A NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND I REMAIN HOPEFUL IT WON'T BE AS DISMAL AS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THE MESSAGE YOU FIND TO BE APPEALING TO THE AVERAGE VOTER.

>> I THINK IT'S THE MESSAGE YOU CITED ABOUT THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WHO CAME TO BEACON HILL TO MANAGE STATE GOVERNMENT AND TO NOT ENGAGE IN OVERLY PARTISAN DIVISIVE RHETORIC BUT TO TALK ABOUT HOW WE ACHIEVE SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE CARE ABOUT, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT PLAY OUT THROUGHOUT HIS TENURE, AND I THINK THERE ARE CERTAINLY OTHER REPUBLICANS WHO BRING THAT TO THE TABLE WHO SAY EVERY DAY WHAT WE THEDE IS COMMON SENSE, WE NEED TO HAVE FISCAL DISCIPLINE, THAT'S A MESSAGE THAT RESONATES WITH FOLKS PARTICULARLY NOW, WHEN WE SEE THE IMPACTS OF INFLATION AND RISING ENERGY COSTS, I THINK THAT'S A MESSAGE REC MED BY A LOT OF THE ELECTORATE.

>> Braude: HAVING SAID THAT, BEARS NOTING THE ONLY REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE THAT YOUR GOVERNOR IS ENDORSING OUT OF ALL THE REPUBLICANS IS ANTHONY AMORE FOR STATE AUDITOR.

PAUL, WHY DO YOU THINK THE HOUSE IS BURNING DOWN ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> WELL, WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF DIVIDES WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

I KNOW BRUCE IS A LITTLE -- MAY NOT REMEMBER THIS, BUT BACK IN 1990, 1990, STEPHEN PIERCE WAS THE NOMINEE FOR THE GOVERNOR.

>> Braude: OUT OF THE CONVENTION.

>> OUT OF THE CONVENTION.

SO THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN SOME, YOU KNOW, STRONG CONSERVATIVE LEANINGS BY SOME PORTIONS OF THE PARTY, BUT REPUBLICANS IN MASSACHUSETTS, ESPECIALLY THE SUCCESSFUL ONES, TEND TO BE RATHER CENTRIST IN APPROACH, AND I THINK WE'RE LIVING IN A POLITICAL CLIMATE NOW DOMINATED BY EXTREMES FROM BOTH SIDES.

>> Braude: IT'S INTERESTING, YOU'RE BOTH LEAVING OUT THE ONE WORD THAT I THINK IS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, PAUL, WHICH IS -- WELL, TWO WORDS -- DONALD TRUMP.

I MEAN, THE PARTY -- THE PARTY ITSELF IS A DONALD TRUMP PARTY IN A STATE THAT IS NOT TERRIBLY FOND OF DONALD TRUMP.

ISN'T THAT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM HERE?

>> I THINK THAT'S A MAJOR PORTION OF THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU WANTED TO PAINT IT WITH A BROADER BRUSH -- >> Braude: YEAH.

>> -- IT'S EXTREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL EQUATION, WHETHER EXTREMELY TO THE RIGHT OR EXTREMELY TO THE LEFT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE TO GET TO A POINT WHERE WE HAVE TO PUT THOSE PARTISANS ASIDE.

>> Braude: EXTREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES, THE WOMAN WHO IS LIKELY TO BE THE NEXT GOVERNOR HAS ESSENTIALLY RUN AS CHARLIE BAKER WITH A COUPLE OF EXCEPTIONS.

SHE'S NOT MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRAISE THE PERFORMANCE OF THE OUTGOING GOVERNOR.

AM I NOT RIGHT?

>> AND I THINK THAT'S A MAJOR PORTION OF HER APPEAL, IT'S THE CENTRIST, COMMON-SENSE APPROACH TO GOVERNMENT.

WHEN YOU HAVE EXTREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES, THAT TENDS TO DETRACT FROM THAT MESSAGE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I WOKE UP, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS YESTERDAY OR TODAY, SENATOR TARR, I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DAYS, BUT I'VE KNOWN GEOFF DIEHL FOR A LONG, LONG TIME WHEN HE WAS A STATE REP AGES AGO.

AND I WOKE UP YESTERDAY OR TODAY AND READ A STORY WHERE HIS LATEST SOCIAL MEDIA AD TALKS ABOUT HOW WE HAVE TO RETURN CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTAL VALUES TO OUR SCHOOLS, AND I SAY TO MYSELF, IT IS NOT ONLY FINE BUT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE APPROPRIATE TO SAY THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, GLENN YOUNGKIN, THE GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA SAID ABOUT MORE PARENTAL POWER IN SCHOOLS AND THAT KIND OF THING, BUT CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTAL VALUES, SOUNDS LIKE HE'S RUNNING FOR ALABAMA, NOT OF MASSACHUSETTS.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

>> I DIDN'T SEE IT BUT I WOULD SUGGEST AGAIN WHAT WE NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN MASSACHUSETTS IS A CENTRIST APPROACH YOU'VE DESCRIBED EMBRACED BY THE FRONTRUNNER IN THE GUBERNATORIAL RACE NOW WHICH PAUL DESCRIBED ABOUT TRYING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS PEOPLE ARE FACING IN THEIR DAILY LIVES AND NOT GETTING INTO PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATES THAT DON'T NECESSARILY ADVANCE THE DISCUSSION FOLKS NEED TO ADVANCE IN ORDER BE SUCCESSFUL FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.

>> Braude: WHICH OF THE TWO CANDIDATES, SENATOR TARR, ARE YOU VOTING FOR, THE DEMOCRAT OR THE REPUBLICAN?

I'M SERIOUS, BY THE WAY.

I DON'T MEAN THAT AS A JOKE.

WHAT ARE YOU VOTING FOR?

>> I THINK IT'S CLEAR I WILL BE VOTING FOR THE REPUBLICAN, JIM.

I THINK IT'S SOMETHING ON ELECTION DAY THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHO PREVAILS, BUT I THINK THE CANDIDATES HAVE A NUMBER OF DAYS TO MAKE THEIR CASE.

>> Braude: PAUL, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

I KNOW THIS SOUNDS ALMOST LIKE AN EMBARRASSING QUESTION TO ASK, BUT OBVIOUSLY THE VOTERS AREN'T ASKING THEMSELVES THIS QUESTION OR MAYBE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ISN'T.

WHY DOES IT MATTER THAT YOU HAVE A TWO-PARTY STATE?

I ASSUME PEOPLE WOULD SAY WE HAVE A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR FOR EIGHT YEARS WHO IS NOT EXACTLY A RADICAL, DEVAL PATRICK, GOT ALONG PRETTY WELL BUT DIDN'T DO, I DON'T THINK, RADICAL THINGS.

YOU BOTH DESCRIBED THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE THIS ROUND AS CENTRIST LEADING, SO WHY DOES IT MATTER THAT THERE ARE TWO VIBRANT PARTIES IN ANY STATE LIKE MASSACHUSETTS?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS MIGHT BE MORE OF A QUESTION OF POINT OF VIEW THAN PARTY AFFILIATION, AND I THINK, TO SOME EXTENT, THOSE LABELS MIGHT BE FALLING BY THE WAYSIDE AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE INDIFFERENT TO ONE POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT TEND TO BE CENTRIST.

I THINK PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, THE EXTREMISTS TAKE AWAY FROM THAT CENTRIST APPROACH.

BUT, IN MASSACHUSETTS, THE ONE THING THAT, YOU KNOW, ADDS TO THE CURRENT STRUCTURE OF THE MASSACHUSETTS PARTY IS THAT A MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN IS VERY VERY DIFFERENT THAN A REPUBLICAN IN ANY OTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY, AND I WOULD HAZARD TO SAY THAT IF YOU COMPARE THE STANCES ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES BETWEEN A MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN AND A SOUTHERN DEMOCRAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS WOULD COME A TAD TO THE RIGHT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICANS.

SO, I THINK THE PARTY -- THIS PARTY FIXATION THAT WE HAVE, WE MIGHT SEE THE BEGINNINGS OF THAT CRACKING AND FALLING DOWN THE WAYSIDE WHERE PEOPLE ARE MORE WEDDED TO A POLITICAL APPROACH RATHER THAN A PARTY AFFILIATION.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, IN GENERAL, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A CHARLIE BAKER MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN, I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT YOU KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE THE WOMAN WHO IS RUNNING FOR SECRETARY OF STATE HERE WHO IS TALKING ABOUT FOUR AND FIVE-YEAR-OLDS HAVING ORAL SEX IN SCHOOL THAT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION.

IT'S STAGGERING.

I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK PARTIES AND VOTERS NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB.

>> Braude: YEAH, I DO, TOO.

>> OF VETTING THEIR CANDIDATES.

>> Braude: SO DOES IT MATTER?

DOES IT MATTER, SENATOR TARR, AS A REPUBLICAN WHO'S BEEN STALWART ON BEACON HILL FOR A LONG TIME IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST COMES APART AT THE SEEMS AFTER NOVEMBER 8th?

AND IF IT DOES MATTER, WHAT'S THE PATH BACK TO CREDIBILITY?

>> SO IT DOES MATTER, JIM, AND IT MATTERS A LOT TO HAVE ANOTHER VOICE IN STATE GOVERNMENT AND A VOICE THAT BRINGS A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE AND PERHAPS A DIFFERENT APPROACH, AND THAT OUR GOVERNMENT DEPENDS ON HAVING DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES WOVEN INTO THE LEGISLATIVE AND THE GOVERNING PROCESSES.

AND, SO, THE PATH BACK IS ONE WHERE I THINK WE HAVE TO EVALUATE THE MESSAGE AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A MESSAGE THAT RESONATES WITH THE VOTERS OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS.

AND, AGAIN, AFTER ELECTION DAY, THERE WILL BE A LOT TO THINK ABOUT.

>> Braude: A LOT OF PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO IN THE LAST 24 HOURS SAY MAYBE ONE OF THE BEST THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS A TOTAL BLOWOUT SO THEY HAVE TO REALIZE THEY HAVE TO REBUILD THE HOUSE.

PAUL, WE HAVE ONLY ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

YOU'VE WORKED WITH PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, MOST NOTABLY JOHN MCCAIN.

WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO REPUBLICANS WHO WANT TO REBUILD THE PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> TAKE A STEP BACK, FOCUS ON WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON, AND AVOID THE EXTREMES OBSERVE BOTH SIDES.

>> Braude: FAIR ENOUGH, PAUL DEBOLE, SENATOR TARR, THUNDERSTORM FOR YOUR TIME.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANKS.

>> UP NEXT, THE LAST IN OUR SERIES OF BALLOT QUESTION EXPLAINERS.

>> REILLY: WHAT WOULD QUESTION FOUR ON THE MASSACHUSETTS BALLOT DO?

QUESTION FOUR WILL DECIDE THE FATE OF A NEW STATE LAW THAT WOULD LET IMMIGRANTS GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE, EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE PERMANENT LEGAL STATUS.

THEY JUST HAVE TO PASS A TEST, AND PROVIDE DOCUMENTS PROVING THEIR IDENTITY AND RESIDENCY.

A "YES" VOTE WOULD LET THAT EXPANDED LICENSE ACCESS START IN JULY.

A "NO" VOTE STOP THE LAW FROM GOING INTO EFFECT, MEANING NO LICENSES FOR IMMIGRANTS WHO DON'T HAVE PERMANENT LEGAL STATUS.

THE LEGISLATURE PASSED THE LAW A FEW MONTHS AGO-- OVER A VETO FROM GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER-- AND ITS SUPPORTERS SAY GIVING MORE IMMIGRANTS ACCESS TO LICENSES WILL HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY HERE DO BASIC THINGS, LIKE DRIVE TO WORK AND SCHOOL.

AND THEY SAY IT'LL INCREASE PUBLIC SAFETY, CITING REDUCED HIT-AND-RUN RATES IN STATES WITH SIMILAR LAWS AND SUPPORT FROM DOZENS OF LOCAL POLICE CHIEFS.

THE LAW'S OPPONENTS SAY IT EXTENDS A CRUCIAL PRIVILEGE TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T DESERVE IT.

THEY ALSO SAY THE RMV DOESN'T HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO VET DOCUMENTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THEY WARN THAT, BECAUSE MASSACHUSETTS AUTOMATICALLY REGISTERS DRIVER'S LICENSE APPLICANTS TO VOTE.

THE NEW LAW COULD RESULT IN PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO VOTE CASTING BALLOTS.

FOR THE RECORD, THE LAW SAYS THE RMV AND SECRETARY OF STATE, QUOTE, "SHALL ESTABLISH PROCEDURES, AND MAY PROMULGATE REGULATIONS" TO MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, BUT IT DOESN'T SAY WHAT THEY'LL BE.

SO, IF YOU WANT IMMIGRANTS WITHOUT PERMANENT LEGAL STATUS TO BE ABLE TO GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE, VOTE "YES" ON QUESTION FOUR.

AND IF YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO GET ONE, VOTE "NO."

>> BRAUDE: THAT WAS ADAM REILLY REPORTING.

YOU CAN CHECK OUT ALL OF OUR BALLOT QUESTION EXPLAINERS ONLINE NOW, AT GBHNEWS.DOT.ORG OR ON AT YOUTUBE.COM/GBHNEWS AND TUNE INTO "TALKING POLITICS" TOMORROW FOR A DEEP DIVE INTO QUESTIONS ONE AND TWO.

EVAN HOROWITZ OF TUFT'S NON-PARTISAN CENTER FOR STATE POLICY WILL JOIN ADAM WITH A FACT-BASED LOOK AT WHAT THE YES AND NO SIDES ARE SAYING ABOUT EACH QUESTION.

THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00.

AND AGAIN, EARLY VOTING KICKS OFF ON SATURDAY.

IF YOU PLAN ON VOTING BY MAIL, DON'T FORGET TO REQUEST YOUR BALLOT.

YOUR APPLICATION MUST BE IN TO YOUR LOCAL ELECTION OFFICE BY 5:00 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 1, AND YOUR FILLED OUT BALLOT MUST BE RETURNED TO THAT OFFICE, OR TO A BALLOT DROP BOX OR POSTMARKED BY THE TIME POLLS CLOSE ON ELECTION DAY.

AND IF YOU'RE VOTING THE TRADITIONAL WAY, POLLS WILL BE OPEN FROM 7:00 A.M. TO 8:00 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 8.

FOR MORE INFO, HEAD TO SEC.STATE.MA.US.

NEXT UP, RESTAURANT REVIEWS ARE BACK AT THE "BOSTON GLOBE" AFTER A PANDEMIC PAUSE, AND WITH A WHOLE NEW FIVE STARS RATING SYSTEM.

AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE LOCAL RESTAURANTS, AND EVERYONE ELSE'S, HAS THE HONOR OF BEING THE FIRST TO GET A FIVE OUT OF FIVE.

THAT WOULD BE SARMA, "THE UNIVERSAL FAVORITE", AS THE "GLOBE" CALLED IT, A SMALL PLATES RESTAURANT BASED IN OUT-OF-THIS WORLD MEDITERRANEAN FLAVORS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE SEVEN-TIME JAMES BEARD-NOMINATED CHEF AND CO-OWNER, CASSIE PIUMA.

CASSIE, IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, JIM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: WE'RE GOING TO EAT SOME AND I'LL PRETEND I CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WHEN THE FOOD IS IN FRONT OF ME.

NINE YEARS AGO YOU DECIDED TO DO THIS THING.

>> YEP.

>> Braude: WHAT WAS YOUR HOPE OR EXPECTATION ABOUT WHAT THIS WOULD BE?

>> I THINK WE WERE JUST HOPING PEOPLE WOULD SHOW UP, THAT THEY WOULD DIG IT.

SMALL PLATES WEREN'T AS A BIG A DEAL AS NOW.

THEY'VE KIND OF, LIKE, GONE OFF THE RADAR, BUT BACK THEN IT WAS STILL A CHALLENGE TO GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT, LIKE, WE'RE GOING TO BOMB YOU BE A BUNCH OF PLATES, YOU'RE GOING TO SHARE THEM.

THIS ISN'T, LIKE, YOUR DISH.

YOU'RE EXPECTED TO MOVE AROUND AND TRY A LOT OF FLAVORS AND WE WERE HOPING PEOPLE WOULD GET THAT.

>> Braude: I NEVER THOUGHT TILL THIS SECOND -- I'M EMBARRASSED -- SARMA, DOES THAT MEAN STUFFED SOMETHING?

>> TO WRAP OR TO ROLL.

STUFFING IS CLOSE ENOUGH.

>> Braude: I'M SURE YOU'VE READ THIS ONCE BEFORE.

HERE'S THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF THE FIRST FIVE OUT OF FIVE REVIEW FOR YOU IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE."

DOESN'T MATTER WHO IT IS, A FRIEND OF A FRIEND ASKING FOR A RESTAURANT RECOMMENDATION, SOMEONE'S GRANDFATHER, SOMEONE'S NIECE, AN OMNIVORE, A VEGAN WITH FOOD ALLERGIES, A CREDENTIAL FOODY WHO'S EATEN EVERYWHERE, YOU KNOW WHAT RESTAURANT I REALLY LOVE, WHAT THEY SAY, SARMA.

WHY IS IT AS WILDLY SUCCESSFUL?

A LOT OF GOOD RESTAURANTS IN TOWN.

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD RESTAURANTS.

I FEEL VERY HONORED THOSE WORDS AMONGST ALL THOSE GREAT RESTAURANTS.

I WANT TO SAY AND I'M NOT SURE, BUT I THINK THAT IT APPEALS TO PEOPLE ON DIFFERENT LEVELS.

FOR SOME PEOPLE IT'S KIND OF AN AFTER-WORK THING.

FOR SOME PEOPLE IT'S A CELEBRATION.

THE FOOD CAN GET KIND OF COMPLEX AND THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT INGREDIENTS AND A LOT OF IT THAT'S VERY FAMILIAR, TOO.

FRIED CHICKEN, BURGERS.

WE TAKE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE COMFORTABLE WITH, WE TWIST THEM, GIVE THEM A NEW NAME, A FUN INGREDIENT AND IT GETS EXCITING.

>> Braude: WHAT AM I TRYING FIRST?

>> SO THIS ONE HERE IS AN APPLE, LIKE A ROASTED APPLE WHIPPED FETA, AND IT HAS A GREEK-STYLED SORT OF OF A RATATOUILLE IN THERE, AND FRIED PITA AND PINE NUTS, TOMATO, HONEY, RADISHES, APPLES.

>> Braude: AND YOU DIP THIS?

>> THAT'S A HONEY NUT SQUASH HOLLOW.

WE USUALLY SERVE IT WARM.

NO OVENS AROUND HERE.

>> Braude: KEEP TALKING.

>> EURO BREAD.

THIS IS THE HOUSE BREAD WE DO WITH ZATAR, SESAME SEEDS, A THYME PICKSTURE.

IT'S SWEET, SALSE, SPICEY, FRENCHY.

>> Braude: DO YOU DO ALL THE BAKING, TOO?

>> WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLE BAKER, PAY INDUSTRY CHEF, TESS, AND SHE DOES EVERY SINGLE SAVORY, SWEET DOUGH YOU CAN IMAGINE UNDER THE SON.

>> Braude: IT'S GOOD TO DO A TV INTERVIEW WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL.

DO YOUDID YOU EVER CLOSE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

>> NO, WE DIDN'T.

>> Braude: WHAT DID YOU DO?

>> THE DAY THE WORLD SHUT DOWN, THE NEXT DAY WE OPENED FOR TAKEOUT, LITERALLY, I THINK 12 HOURS AFTER THE CALL.

WE SCRAMBLED AND TRANSITIONED AND A VERY SMALL TEAM WORKED TOGETHER VERY CLOSELY, I THINK THERE WERE SIX OF US TOTAL.

>> Braude: WERE YOU SCARED?

>> I WAS, YEAH.

I WOULD GET HOME AFTER WORK AND RIP MY CLOTHES OFF AT THE FRONT DOOR AND GET NAKED BEFORE I WOULD COME BACK INTO THE HOUSE AND GIVE MY NEIGHBORS A SHOW.

I WAS VERY NERVOUS.

>> Braude: BECAUSE YOU HAVE KIDS.

>> I WAS DEAD SERIOUS.

I WAS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF MY FAMILY, BUT ALSO THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH, AND ALL THE QUESTIONS, ARE WE DOING THE RIGHT THING, IS THERE WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING?

YOU KNOW, ARE WE SERVING OUR COMMUNITY PROPERLY?

BUT AS IT TURNED OUT, THERE WAS A REAL NEED, AND IT DID WORK OUT.

>> Braude: MY RECOLLECTION WAS -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, HOPE I'M NOT WRONG ABOUT THIS -- DIDN'T YOU ADD SOME KIND OF FEE IN THE EARLY TAKEOUT DAYS IN AN ATTEMPT TO HELP PEOPLE -- YOUR STAFF WAS GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME GETTING THROUGH, RIGHT?

>> WE SURE DID.

WE ADDED A PERCENTAGE, A STAFF APPRECIATION FEE, BUT IT WAS A PRETTY HIGH PERCENTAGE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING THAT WAS USEFUL TO YOU IN WHAT WE HOPE IS A POST-PANDEMIC WORLD?

>> YEAH, I LEARNED MANY THINGS.

>> Braude: LIKE THAT?

>> I THINK MOSTLY -- I MEAN, I THINK I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN YOU ARE NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR TEAM BUT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OPERATE A SUCCESSFUL RESTAURANT WITHOUT EACH AND EVERY PERSON IN THAT RESTAURANT AND IT IS A REAL STRUGGLE TO DO IT.

YOU CAN'T DO IT ALONE BUT, LIKE, THE SPECIFIC AND UNIQUE TALENTS EVERYONE HAVE COMING TOGETHER ARE SO IMPORTANT AND WE'RE MISSING THAT DURING THE PANDEMIC HAVING OUR GROUP DYNAMIC.

>> Braude: WE HAD CORBIE CONNOR THE OTHER NIGHT, AND WE WERE TAKING ABOUT HOW MANY GREAT RESTAURANTS WERE IN TOWN, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YOU IN PART, AND SAYING THE BAD NEWS IS YOU CAN'T GET IN.

ALL OF A SUDDEN I GOT A TEXT FROM A FRIEND WHO'S A BIG CUSTOMER OF YOURS AND SAID WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

YOU CAN ALWAYS GO TO THE BAR AT 5:00.

IS IT ALWAYS AS HARD TO GET A RESTAURANT RESERVATION AS I THINK OR NOT.

>> I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS PROBABLY TRYING TO GET THERE 7:00 ON A FRIDAY OR SATURDAY.

IF YOU'RE TRYING TO TRY ANY OTHER DAY NOT A FRIDAY OR STATE YOU CAN GET IN.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THIS THING?

>> SESAME FRIED CHICK ONCOMING WITH A TAHINI RIEWM LAD WITH PICKLES, ON TOP A SPICE MIXTURE OF DRIED CILANTRO AND GREEN CHILIS.

IT'S A ROAMING SPECIAL WE OFFER ON A TRAY.

YOU CAN'T ORDER IT OFF THE MENU BUT YOU CAN SEE IT WALKING AROUND THE DINING ROOM AND IF IT FINDS ITS WAY TO YOUR TABLE YOU SAY, I WANT THAT, THEY MARK IT ON A CARD.

>> Braude: I LOVE THAT KIND OF DEAL.

SOME THINGS ARE ON YOUR MENU ALWAYS, AND THEN CHANGING OTHER DEALS.

>> WE HAVE A BIG ECLECTIC MENU 35, 40 40 ITEMS, THE CLASSIC THINGS AND THEN CHANGE IT SEASONALLY.

>> Braude: YOU WORK FOR TWO OF THE GREAT LEGENDARY WOMEN, BARBARA LYNCH AT THE BUTCHER SHOP, AND FOR A DECADE, A WOMAN WHO ENDED UP BEING YOUR PARTNER ALONG WITH YOUR HUSBAND.

WHEN YOU STARTED, 2013, NINE YEARS AGO OR THEREABOUTS.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: DESCRIBE THE ROLE OF WOMEN LEADING RESTAURANTS THEN AS WILLIAM CARED TO NOW WHERE THERE SEEMS TO BE AN EXPLOSION.

IT'S CHANGED A LOT.

>> FOR SURE.

I THINK THERE'S A MUCH SMALLER GROUP OF WOMEN WHEN I WAS STARTING OUT.

MOST KITCHENS I WORKED IN I FOUND MYSELF TO BE THE ONLY FEMALE IN THE KITCHEN, SO IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THESE ROLE MODELS AND THESE FIERCE WOMEN, HARD WORKING AND INTENSE, BUT THEY NEVER MADE IT ABOUT BEING A WOMAN, THEY WERE JUST REALLY THE BEST AT WHAT THEY DID, SO I REALLY ADOPTED THAT SORT OF MENTALITY AND WORKED HARD AND TRIED HARD.

BUT NOW I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE WOMEN THAT ARE COMING OUT.

>> Braude: ARE WOMEN LEAD CHEFS AND OWNERS DIFFERENT FROM MEN?

WE'VE ALL WATCHED THE BEARD.

WHO HASN'T?

IT'S ABOUT THE AMERICAN WORKPLACE, NOT JUST RESTAURANTS, IN MY OPINION.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: HE'S A SCREAMER AND EVERYBODY IS SCREAMING AT EVERYBODY.

ARE MEN AND WOMEN RUNNING ESTABLISHMENTS AS A GENERAL RULE DIFFERENT SPECIES, IN YOUR ESTIMATION?

>> AH, I THINK IT DEPENDS.

I THINK IT'S JUST THE PERSON, TO BE HONEST.

I'VE WORKED WITH VERY INTENSE WOMEN, INTENSE MEN, LAID BACK, BACK AND FORTH.

IT'S ALL RELATIVE.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THE PLACE.

>> SARMA.

>> Braude: YOU KEEP TALKING.

>> PEOPLE ASK IF WE HAVE PLANS TO OPEN ANOTHER AND I HAVE THE SAME ANSWER EVERY TIME.

>> Braude: WHAT IS IT?

>> I HONESTLY DON'T THINK I COULD EVER RE-CREATE THIS SITUATION AGAIN.

IT'S A VERY SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE, IT'S A PLACE, IT'S A TIME, IT'S SO MUCH WORK TO CREATE ALL THESE LAYERS, I DON'T THINK I PERSONALLY COULD EVER DO IT AGAIN.

>> Braude: WHERE DO YOU WANT THIS PLACE IN YOUR WORK TO BE IN NINE MORE YEARS, TUNING?

>> NINE MORE YEARS?

>> Braude: YEAH.

>> I HOPE SARMA IS STILL ROCKING AND ROLLING AND SERVING OUR COMMUNITY AND DOING WHAT IT DOES BEST, AND IT KEEPS JUST, LIKE, GROWING AND EVOLVING AND CHANGING AND TRYING TO PULL NEW FLAVORS AND NEW PROFILES.

FOR ME, PERSONALLY, I THINK MY NEXT MOVE, IF I WERE TO HAVE MY WAYS, I LIFE IN -- I LIVE IN WINTHROP, AND THERE'S A HUGE NEED FOR SOMETHING GOOD OUT THERE.

>> Braude: AT -- A LOT OF YOUNG KIDS, DESPITE HOW DIFFICULT THE RESTAURANT BUSINESS IS, WANT TO BE YOU OR ONE OF THE GREAT LEADERS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A 20-YEAR-OLD, WHO SAYS I LOVE THIS BUSINESS, I HAVE A LOT OF THE SAME FEELINGS YOU DESCRIBE WHEN YOU START.

WHAT DO YOU TELL THAT KID?

>> I THINK IT'S AS GOOD A TIME AS ANY TO BE IN THIS BUSINESS, AS LONG AS YOU'RE READY FOR HARD WORK AND PAY YOUR DO YOU SEE AND WORK YOUR WAY UP THE CHAIN.

BUT I THINK IT'S A GREAT TIME.

PEOPLE ARE A LOT MORE EMPATHETIC, RESTAURANT OWNERS, CHEFS, TO SORT OF THE PLIGHT OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

CHEFS ARE BEING PAID A LOT MORE.

THEY'RE GETTING TIME OFF, VACATION TIME, THEY'RE GETTING BENEFITS AND SUCH THAT THINGS THAT WEREN'T REALLY AROUND BACK THEN.

>> Braude: IT'S A GOOD TIME FOR THAT.

WHAT IS THAT THING?

>> A CHOCOLATE COVERED HOLVA BITE, OUR VERSION OF A THREE MUSKETEERS.

KIND OF CREAMY IN THE CENTER.

>> Braude: OH, MY GOD!

IS IT LIKE PICKING YOUR FAVORITE KID.

>> THEY'RE ALL MY CHILDREN, I WAS GOING TO SAY.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS DISH, WHEN I FIRST STARTED TESTING IT NINE-PLUS YEARS AGO, IT TOOK ME SIX MONTHS TO GET THE SPICE AND THE COATING JUST RIGHT.

SO IT'S STILL KIND OF LIKE THIS VERY PERSONAL BIT OF CHICKEN TO ME.

>> Braude: I WANT TO BE HONEST, YOU THINK I'M SHARING THIS WITH MY STAFF, FORGET ABOUT IT.

CASSIE, YOU'RE GREAT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: I'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK AND CHEF RACHEL MILLER FROM "THE GLOBE"'S NEXT FIVE STAR RESTAURANT LYNN'S NIGHTSHADE NOODLE BAR.

JAKE TAPPER WILL JOIN ME.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

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