>> TONIGHT ON TALKING POLITICS, THE PRODUCER OF THE GBH PODCAST THE BIG DIG JOINS ME ON THE INFAMOUS AND MASSIVE HIGHWAY PROJECT THAT ULTIMATELY TRANSFORMED BOSTON.

FIRST IT WAS ONE OF HER CENTRAL PROMISES ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF HOUSING IN MASSACHUSETTS.

NOW GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY IS LAUNCHING HER FIRST MAJOR PUSH TO DO SO SINCE TAKING OFFICE.

IT HAS A MAJOR PRICE TAG OF MORE THAN $4 BILLION.

GOVERNOR HEALY: WE WILL CREATE MORE HOMES THAN EVER BEFORE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, OUR VETERANS, AND PEOPLE COMING OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

>> IS PASSED SHE ESTIMATES THE PLAN WILL LEAD TO THE PRODUCTION OF 40,000 NEW HOMES, MORE THAN 50% OF WHICH ARE FOR LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME HOUSEHOLDS.

IT INCLUDES NEARLY 30 POLICY CHANGES INCLUDING A STATEWIDE JOAN AND CHANGE, A NEW STATE OFFICE OF FAIR HOUSING AND A HUGE INVESTMENT IN PUBLIC HOUSING.

JOINING ME IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ABUNDANT HOUSING MASSACHUSETTS, A MEMBER OF THE STRATEGY TEAM FOR THE GREATER BOSTON INTERFAITH ORGANIZATION AND GBH NEWS HOUSE REPORTER KATIE LANNON.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

I KNOW YOUR GROUP IS ESPECIALLY EXCITED ABOUT THE PROVISION INVOLVING ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS.

FOR PEOPLE THAT MIGHT NEED TO BE CAUGHT UP, WHAT ARE ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS?

WHAT IS THE GOVERNOR WANT TO DO THAT WITH THEM?

ACCESSORY WHILE IN UNITS ARE EXTRA UNITS A HOMEOWNER CAN BUILD ON THEIR PROPERTY, SOMETIMES IN THE BUILDING WHERE THE BACKYARD.

WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS PROPOSING TO DO IN THIS BOND BILL IS LEGALIZED ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS BY RIGHTS WITHOUT SPECIAL ZONING PERMITS IN EVERY COMMUNITY ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS.

>> I BELIEVE SHE SAID THAT COULD LEAD TO 8000 UNITS CONSTRUCTED?

>> THAT IS THE NUMBER SHE ESTIMATED.

WE HOPE YOU CAN GET IT TO EVEN MORE.

THESE ARE A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE PUZZLE TO ADDRESS THE EXTREME HOUSING SHORTAGE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WE NEED EVERY TOOL WE CAN GET IN THE TOOLKIT TO ADDRESS THE SHORTAGE OF NEARLY 200,000 HOMES IF NOT MORE THAT WE ARE FACING IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WE HAVE DONE IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE THE MBTA COMMUNITIES ACT WHICH MANDATES MULTIFAMILY ZONING NEAR TRANSIT, ALLOWING APARTMENT BUILDINGS NEAR TRANSIT AROUND THE GREATER BOSTON AREA.

BUT THAT ONLY TOUCHES THE BOSTON AND GREATER BOSTON AREA.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE EVERY COMMUNITY ACROSS THE STATE IS DOING WHAT IT CAN DO TO BUILD HOMES THAT CURRENT AND FUTURE MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS NEED.

BUILDING BACKYARD OR IN LAW APARTMENT IS AN IMPORTANT STRATEGY THAT ALLOWS HOMEOWNERS TO BUILD UNITS IN A WAY THAT HELPS THEM PERHAPS GENERATE INCOME, GIVE HOMES TO FAMILY MEMBERS WITH A DISABILITY.

>> AND A LITTLE CHEAPER.

>> THEY ARE CHEAPER TO BUILD.

>> I SHOULD MENTION FOR THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW THAT NOT EVERYBODY IS THRILLED ABOUT THE ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT PROVISION.

THE MASSACHUSETTS MUNICIPAL ASSOCIATION SAID IN ITS WRITEUP OF THE GOVERNOR'’S BILL THAT IT IS OPPOSED TO THIS POTENTIAL PREEMPTION OF LOCAL ZONING DECISION MAKING AND WILL BE RAISING CONCERNS AS THE BILL MAKES ITS WAY THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

CHARLES HELMER, MY SENSE IS YOUR ORGANIZATION IS EXCITED ABOUT A COUPLE OTHER PIECES OF THE GOVERNOR'’S BILL.

WHAT ARE THEY?

>> THANK YOU.

IT'’S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

WE ARE EXCITED ABOUT TWO PARTICULAR PARTS OF THE BILL.

ONE, A VERY SUBSTANTIAL INVESTMENT IN ADDRESSING THE NEEDS OF PUBLIC HOUSING.

MASSACHUSETTS IS ONE OF FOUR STATES AND AT THE COUNTRY THAT HAS ITS OWN STATE OWNED PUBLIC HOUSING.

UNFORTUNATELY THE STATE HAS NOT INVESTED IN THAT FOR MANY MANY DECADES.

THERE ARE ABOUT 43,000 UNITS OF PUBLIC HOUSING.

THERE ARE OVER 70,000 ELDERLY, DISABLED, AND YOUNG, VERY LOW INCOME FAMILIES IS THAT IF IN THE HOUSING.

THE CONDITION HAS DETERIORATED TERRIBLY.

I'’M A PEDIATRICIAN BY TRAINING AND I WOULD NOT WANT ANY OF MY CHILDREN OR FAMILY MEMBERS TO LIVE IN THE CONDITIONS WITH MOLD , WITH RATS, AND EXPRESSED US AND LED RUNNING THROUGHOUT -- ASBESTOS AND LED RUNNING THROUGHOUT PREACH SHE IS PROPOSING TO INVEST $1.6 BILLION OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, NO -- MORE THAN 2.5 TIMES WHAT WAS IN THE BOND BILL FIVE YEARS AGO.

THAT'’S ONE COMPONENT WE ARE THRILLED ABOUT.

>> WHAT IS THE OTHER?

>> THEIR REAL ESTATE TRANSFER FEE.

THAT ENABLES LOCAL TOWNS OR CITIES WHO WANT TO IMPLEMENT A TAX OR FEE ON HIGH-END REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS OVER $1 MILLION, THAT THEY CAN THEN ADD A FEE BETWEEN .5%-2% THAT WOULD GO TO CREATE THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING TRUST WITHIN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IT SOUNDS VERY COMPLICATED.

>> PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

>> BASICALLY ADDITIONAL FUNDS AVAILABLE TO BUILD A NEW AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

IT COULD BE USED FOR FIRST-TIME HOMEOWNERS.

IT CAN BE USED TO ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF PUBLIC HOUSING IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IT'’S A GREAT TOOL THAT WILL PROVIDE SUBSTANTIAL RESOURCES TO THOSE COMMUNITIES.

>> AS I DID A MOMENT AGO I WANT TO NOTE FOLKS ARE ALREADY VOICING OPPOSITION TO THAT PIECE AS WELL AS OTHERS.

HERE IS A STATEMENT FROM GREG VASSAL THE CEO OF THE GREATER BOSTON REAL ESTATE BOARD.

HE SAID "WE APPLAUD THE ADMINISTRATION FOR TAKING BOLD ACTION TO ADDRESS THE STATES CORTICAL HOUSING CRISIS BUT WE HAVE DEEP CONCERNS ABOUT THE INCLUSION OF THE SALES TAX ON REAL ESTATE.

THAT IS AN UNSTABLE SOURCE OF REVENUE THAT WOULD CAUSE MORE HARM THAN GOOD AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE AND BUSINESSES ARE LEAVING THE STATE BECAUSE IT'’S TOO EXPENSIVE."

THAT BRINGS ME TO YOU, KATIE LANNON.

WHERE DOES THE LEGISLATURE SIT ON THE VARIOUS ISSUES?

IT'’S A HUGE BODY WITH A BUNCH OF MEMBERS.

WHEN IT COMES TO ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS, THE TRANSFER TAX, AND -- INVESTING MONEY IN PUBLIC HOUSING, IS THERE A SENSE OF WHERE THE LEGISLATURE IS ON THOSE?

>> WE HAVE SEEN TRANSFER TAXES OR FEES, WHATEVER TERM YOU WANT TO USE, AN IDEA IN TERMS OF THE BROAD LOCAL OPTION WERE ANY TEAM THAT -- COMMUNITY THAT WANTS TO OPT IN CAN AND INDIVIDUAL PETITIONS FROM PLACES LIKE BOSTON AND WELLFLEET TRYING TO GET THEM AT THE LOCAL LEVEL WITHIN THEIR BORDERS THE LEGISLATURE HAS BEEN COOL TO THAT.

THE BILLS HAVE BEEN FILED FOR YEARS AND THEY HAVE ADVANCED, BUT NOT BECOME LAW.

DITTO AS WELL ACCESSORY DWELLING UNITS IS SOMETHING THAT IS IN SOME OF THE SUBURBS AND EVEN CITIES LIKE LOWELL HAVE HAD A REALLY CONTINGENTS FIGHT OVER TRYING TO PASS AN ADU ORDINANCE.

THIS WILL BE A BILL WHERE YOU SEE DIFFERENT LAWMAKERS REPRESENTING DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE STATE.

HAVING REALLY DIFFERENT FEELINGS.

OF COURSE, THAT IS IF, BY THE TIME THE BILL MAKES IT TO A VOTE IN EITHER BRANCH, THAT THOSE PIECES ARE STILL IN THERE.

THEY COULD BE CARVED OUT ALONG THE WAY.

MORE THINGS COULD BE ADDED IN.

BUT, THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO DOZEN POLICY PROPOSALS IN THERE.

THERE WILL BE A LOT FOR LAWMAKERS TO CHEW ON.

THERE IS A QUESTION IS IF THEY AGREE THAT $4 BILLION OVER FIVE YEARS, IF AUTHORIZING THAT MUCH FUNDING IS AFFORDABLE FOR THE STATE.

I THINK WE WILL SEE A LOT OF DEBATE OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

>> OK.

I THOUGHT I HEARD SOMEBODY BEGINNING TO SPEAK, FORGIVE ME.

WHAT ABOUT THE PUBLIC HOUSING PIECE?

DO YOU EXPECT, GIVEN THE CAVEATS YOU OFFERED, WE WILL SEE IF THEY THINK 1.6 BILLION IS AFFORDABLE, BUT IS PUBLIC HOUSING AND INVESTING IN A MORE POLITICALLY PALATABLE THAT OTHER THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT?

>> I THINK IT IS.

IT IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOT HEARD.

YOU HAD STATEMENTS IN OPPOSITION TO A FEW THINGS, BUT NOT THAT.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS PART OF THE REASON GOVERNOR HEALY ATTACHED POLICIES TO A BOND BILL.

THAT'’S BECAUSE BOND BILLS TYPICALLY PASS THESE THREE AUTHORIZATIONS ARE NECESSARY.

THEY ARE USUALLY PRETTY POPULAR INVESTMENTS.

THAT CAN BE A WAY TO GET A POLICY THROUGH RATHER THAN FILING IT AS A STAND-ALONE LEGISLATION.

>> MAKES SENSE.

JESSE, YOUR GROUP AND OTHERS HAVE BACKED A BIG HOUSING BILL CALLED YIMBY, YES IN MY BACKYARD.

FROM THAT LEGISLATION YOU WOULD HOPE THE GOVERNOR WOULD INCLUDE THAT SHE DID NOT PUT IN THERE?

>> I AM GRATEFUL SHE INCLUDED ARE ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT COMPONENT.

WHAT'’S IN THE BOND BILL REFLECTS WHAT WE PROPOSED AS AN ORGANIZATION WITH THE BILL.

THERE IS A BROADER CONVERSATION NEEDED IN MASSACHUSETTS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE POWERS OF ZONING THAT THE STATE GIVES TO MUNICIPALITIES.

WE HEARD THE QUOTE FROM THEM MUNICIPAL ASSOCIATION EXPRESSING OPPOSITION.

ONE THING WE ARE TRYING TO DO TO PROMOTE YES IN MY BACKYARD IS ESTABLISH CATEGORIES RELATED TO ZONING WHERE THE STATE SAYS WHAT MUNICIPALITIES CAN AND CANNOT DO WITH RELATION TO WHAT WE CALL EXCLUSIONARY ZONING.

THAT IS THE WAY MUNICIPALITIES USE ZONING TO NOMINATE CERTAIN TYPES OF BUILDINGS OR NEW HOMES FROM BEING BUILT IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

THAT HAS THE DIRECT IMPACT OF LIMITING THE TYPES OF PEOPLE, LOW INCOME PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF COLOR, FROM ACCESSING THEIR COMMUNITIES.

MASSACHUSETTS FAMILIES, MASSACHUSETTS, BECAUSE OF THE POWERS THAT THE STATE HAS GIVEN TO MUNICIPALITIES, TO MAKE BROAD DECISIONS AROUND ZONING, IT IS NOW MORE SEGREGATED BY RACE AND CLASS TODAY THEN WE WERE 30 YEARS AGO.

THAT IS BECAUSE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE MASSACHUSETTS MUNICIPAL ASSOCIATION ARE FIGHTING TO PROTECT THE POWER OF COMMUNITIES TO ZONE.

SO, LOOKING AT ZONING PROCESSES OR PRINTING -- PERMITTING PROCESSES, CONVERTING COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS TO RESIDENCES, THERE IS A FUNDING PROGRAM IN THE BOND BILL.

WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT CONTEMPLATED UNDER ZONING.

WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE A BROADER MANDATE TO ALLOW AT LEAST SMALL APARTMENT BUILDINGS, THREE DECKERS, IN MORE COMMUNITIES AROUND THE STATE, NOT JUST IN THE MBTA REGION AS MANDATED BY THE MBTA ACT.

AT THE CORE, IT'’S ABOUT MAKING SURE COMMUNITIES CAN'’T USE ZONING TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT.

>> CHARLES IS THERE ANYTHING YOU HOPE TO THE GOVERNOR WOULD INCLUDE THAT SHE DID NOT?

>> AS JESSE SAID, WE ARE THRILLED WITH THE BILL.

WE THINK IT COVERS A LOT.

IT'’S A GREAT BILL WAS A LOT OF WONDERFUL THINGS.

WE HAVE ANOTHER ELEMENT OF OUR HOUSE IN JUSTICE CAMPAIGN THAT A GENESIS -- THAT ADDRESSES HOUSING FOR INDIVIDUALS REENTERING SOCIETY AFTER INCARCERATION.

WE CALL THEM RETURN CITIZENS PER YOUR WE THINK THESE INDIVIDUALS WILL BENEFIT FROM GETTING IDS FROM THE REGISTERED MOTOR VEHICLES BEFORE THEY LEAVE INCARCERATION.

WE WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE THOSE INDIVIDUALS GETTING PRIORITY ALONGSIDE OTHERS FOR A VARIETY OF STATE AND PUBLIC HOUSING PROGRAMS INCLUDING HOUSING VOUCHERS.

SO, THOSE ARE TWO BILLS WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE ADDED ON.

AS YOU ALREADY INDICATED TO THIS BILL TO PASS, THOSE TWO ELEMENTS, BY PROVIDING HOUSING TO PEOPLE LEAVING INCARCERATION, WE BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR HOUSING, A GROUP WE WORK WITH.

THEY BELIEVE WE WOULD DECREASE THE RISK OF RECIDIVISM OF PEOPLE COMMITTING ADDITIONAL CRIMES AND RETURNING TO PRISON.

THAT IS WHY WE THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT.

THAT WAS THE ONLY OTHER PART OF OUR AGENDA.

>> YOU GUYS DID PRETTY WELL.

>> WE ARE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF AN ELEMENT JESSE MENTIONED, THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PREVIOUSLY PASSED MBTA COMMUNITY ACT AND MANY OF OUR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS AROUND THE GREATER BOSTON AREA ARE WORKING VERY HARD IN THEIR CITIES AND TOWNS TO IMPLEMENT THAT.

AGAIN, TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE OF RESTRICTIVE ZONING.

>> KATIE, HOW QUICKLY IS THE LEGISLATURE LIKELY TO CREATE AN ANALOGOUS BILL OF THEIR OWN?

WHAT IS THE TIMETABLE HERE?

THE GOVERNOR SEES THIS -- SHE DID NOT USE THE TERM STATE IS EMERGENCY BUT SHE SAID THE MOST IMPORT CHALLENGE FACING MASSACHUSETTS.

HOW QUICKLY WILL THE LEGISLATURE MOVE?

>> THAT IS ALWAYS A GUESSING GAME.

IT'’S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE LEGISLATURE IS BREAKING FOR THEIR NEXT KIND OF RECESS.

NOT A STRICT RECESS, BUT THEIR LAST DAY OF FORMAL SESSIONS FOR THE YEAR IS NOVEMBER 15.

SO, --.

>> COMING RIGHT UP.

>> IT WILL BE A LOT TO GET DONE IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS.

THE GOVERNOR IS POINTING TO THE SPRING CONSTRUCTION SEASON AT THE IDEAL TIME FRAME.

OF COURSE, THESE MAJOR PIECES OF LEGISLATION ARE THE ONES THAT OFTEN TAKES THE LONGEST FOR THE TWO BRANCHES IN PARTICULAR.

LET ALONE WITHIN THE BRANCHES TO FIND CONSENSUS ON.

SO, I THINK YOU ARE PROBABLY LOOKING AT MORE OF A SUMMERTIME RUSH TO THE FINISH LINE AREA JULY 31.

BUT I COULD ALWAYS BE SURPRISED.

>> I GUESS THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE.

GIVEN WHAT I KNOW, AND IS NOT ABOUT THAT AS MUCH ABOUT THE LEGISLATURE AS YOU, BUT THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD PREDICTION.

THANK YOU ALL FOR TALKING THIS THROUGH.

>> THANK YOU.

NEXT, MORE THAN 15 YEARS SINCE CONSTRUCTION FINALLY WRAPPED UP THE BIG DIG IS STILL NOTORIOUS FOR DELAYS AND COST OVERRUNS.

IT IS TAKING LONGER AND COST MORE THAN ANYONE PLANS.

AS EN EXPLORES IN HIS GBH PODCAST THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER STORY.

>> IT WAS A LONG TIME.

BUT, THE RESULTS ARE SPECTACULAR.

>> IT'’S BEAUTIFUL AROUND HERE NOW.

>> DO YOU THINK IT IS WORTH IT?

>> >> DEFINITELY.

IS IT TIME TO JETTISON THE WHOLE NARRATIVE?

WHAT MIGHT THE BIG DIG TELL US ABOUT FUTURE AMBITIOUS INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS.

IAN COSS JOINED ME.

THANK YOU FOR COMING AND CONGRATULATIONS ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF THE PODCAST.

IT HIT NUMBER ONE ON THE APPLE PODCAST CHARTS?

>> THE HISTORY CHART.

>> THERE IS A REAL APPETITE FOR THIS.

>> APPARENTLY ALL THESE YEARS LATER PEOPLE IN BOSTON AND ELSEWHERE STILL WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE BIG DIG.

>> WHAT MADE YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE THE CASE?

I ASSUME YOU THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIENCE WHEN YOU EMBARKED ON THIS.

I CONFESS WHEN I HEARD THAT GBH WAS INVOLVED WITH THE BIG DIG PODCAST I THOUGHT SO MUCH HAS ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN AND SET ABOUT THIS.

WHAT CAN WE DO NEW HERE THAT PEOPLE WILL WANT TO CONSUME?

OBVIOUSLY YOU DID A BUNCH.

HOW DID YOU KNOW THERE WAS AN APPETITE?

>> FOR ME, THERE WAS SO MUCH WRITTEN AND SAID ABOUT THE PROJECT AT THE TIME.

THEN, I THINK, THERE HAS BEEN, -- I DON'’T WANT TO SAY SILENCE, BUT A BIT OF A VOID SINCE THEN.

A FEW BOOKS CAME OUT AROUND THE TIME THE PROJECT WRAPPED UP.

BUT THERE HAD NOT BEEN ANYONE WHO TOOK IT THE WHOLE SCOPE -- A LOOK AT THE WHOLE SCOPE OF THE PROJECT WITH DISTANCE AND PERSPECTIVE, WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF NOT JUST HOW IT CAME TO BE BUT HOW IT PLAYED OUT LONG-TERM.

IT FELT LIKE IT WAS A GOOD TIME TO DO THAT.

NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE DISTANCE WE NOW HAVE FROM THAT STORY, BUT THE RELEVANCE THE STORY HAS TWO OUR PRESENT MOMENT.

YOU KNOW, BIDENS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

ALL OF THE PRESSURE AROUND RENEWABLE ENERGY AND IMPROVING OUR TRANSIT SYSTEM.

THAT FELT LIKE NOW WAS A TIME TO REVISIT THAT STORY.

>> I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE RELEVANT PIECE.

WHAT YOUR TAKE AWAY ULTIMATELY IS TO WHEN IT COMES TO IF WE CAN DO THIS AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.

SOME VIEWERS WILL KNOW THERE IS A TON OF ENGINEERING TITO IN HERE BECAUSE IT'’S A VERY COMPLICATED ENGINEERING STORY.

THERE IS ALSO A TON OF POLITICAL CONTENT BECAUSE IT IS A DEEPLY POLITICAL STORY WAS A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ACTORS.

>> IT'’S BOSTON.

>> IT'’S BOSTON.

I WANT TO ROLL SOME FROM EPISODE FOUR WHERE YOU POINT OUT THAT THE BIG DIG STARTED BREWING IN MASSACHUSETTS IT'’S NOT THE REALITY OF TODAY'’S MASSACHUSETTS.

>> IF YOU THINK OF MASSACHUSETTS AS A HIGH INCOME STATE OR A HUB FOR BIOTECH FIRMS AND START UPS, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU, THE STATE YOU ARE THINKING OF IS A RELATIVELY NEW PHENOMENON.

IN THE MID-1970'’S OUR UNEMPLOYMENT RATE WAS 12%.

THAT WAS THE HIGHEST OF ANY INDUSTRIAL STATE.

BY 1988 IT WAS 3%.

THE LOWEST OF ANY INDUSTRIAL STATE.

THAT TURNAROUND CAME TO BE KNOWN AS THE MASSACHUSETTS MIRACLE.

>> HIS FELLOW GOVERNORS VOTED HIM THE MOST EFFECTIVE GOVERNOR IN AMERICA.

>> DUKAKIS PRESIDED OVER MOST OF THIS REMARKABLE TIMEFRAME.

HE WAS ELECTED GOVERNOR IN 1974.

AGAIN IN 1970 -- 1982 AND AGAIN IN 1986.

THEN HE RODE THE GLOW OF THE MIRACLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES IN 1988.

>> HE LED AN ECONOMIC TURNAROUND THEY CALL A MIRACLE.

>> I LOVE THE BACK-TO-BACK SHOT OF HIM JOGGING THEN HOPPING ON THE T. THAT IS THE EPISODE WHERE YOU SAY THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE CLEAR GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS IN THIS STORY STARTS TO BREAK DOWN.

>> YES.

>> ALSO?

LET'’S -- >> THE ORIGINS OF THE STORY OF THE BIG DIG ARE REALLY IN CITIZEN ACTIVISM.

THE IDEA OF TEARING DOWN THE CENTRAL ARTERY, THIS HULKING ELEVATED HIGHWAY.

SO MUCH OF THE POLITICAL MOMENTUM BEHIND IT CAME FROM LOCAL PEOPLE AND NEIGHBORHOODS PUSHING BACK AGAINST HIGHWAYS.

RIGHT?

THAT IS KIND OF ONE CURRENT FLOWING INTO MAKING THE PROJECT HAPPEN.

THEN FAST FORWARD A FEW YEARS AND THE PROJECT HAS FEDERAL FUNDING.

IT IS NO LONGER THE SCRAPPY UNDERDOG.

NOW IT IS, AS ONE OF THE PROJECT ARCHITECTS DESCRIBED IT, THE KID WALKING TO THE PLAYGROUND WITH A FIVE DOLLAR BILL HANGING OUT OF OUR BACK POCKET AND EVERYBODY WANT SOMETHING.

THERE IS AN INTERESTING MOMENT, VERY INTERESTING FOR ME, IN THE LATE 1980'’S WHERE THE POLITICS AROUND THE PROJECT SHIFT AND YOU START HAVING A LOT OF LOCAL OPPOSITION TO THE PROJECT.

SOME ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS.

SOME NEIGHBORHOOD GROUPS.

SOME PROPERTY OWNERS WERE UPSET ABOUT HOW IT WOULD IMPACT THEIR PROPERTY.

SO, WHAT HAD BEEN THIS SORT OF YOU KNOW LIKE I SAID, UNDERDOG STORY, THE WHOLE CITY RALLYING AROUND THIS PROJECT.

IT TURNS INTO SOMETHING A LOT MORE COMPLICATED.

THERE IS ALL OF THIS INTERNAL STRUGGLE WITHIN THE CITY.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED IN THE ORIGINAL IMPETUS FOR THIS COMES FROM CITIZEN ACTIVISTS TRYING TO MAKE BOSTON MORE LIVABLE.

IT INVOLVES OPPOSITION TO ANOTHER BIG PROJECT.

>> RIGHT.

>> AGAIN, I WANT TO ROLL A LITTLE AUDIO AND VIDEO INVOLVING THAT GENESIS PERIOD.

AND THEN WE WILL COME BACK AND TALK MORE.

>> BY JANUARY OF 1969, WHEN FRANCIS SARGENT TOOK HIS OATH AS GOVERNOR THE GBC PROTESTERS WERE READY.

>> ABOUT 2000 FOLKS SHOW UP IN FRONT OF THE STATEHOUSE SAYING, WHAT WILL YOU DO ABOUT THE ROAD?

WHAT WILL YOU DO ABOUT THIS?

>> WHAT HAD STARTED AS A SMALL GROUP OF CAMBRIDGE RESIDENTS PUSHING BACK AGAINST A SINGLE ROAD GROWN -- HAD GROWN INTO A RADICAL CHALLENGE TO THE STATES ENTIRE ROADBUILDING POLICY.

THIS WAS THE COMING-OUT PARTY FOR THE MOVEMENT.

ALL THE PLAYERS, ALL THE FACTIONS GATHERED IN ONE PLACE.

>> IT SPILLED DOWN THE STAIRS OF THE STATEHOUSE OVER INTO BOSTON COMMON.

>> THE FIRE DEPARTMENT CAME.

PEOPLE FROM EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD IN BOSTON.

>> ANTHONY BENFIELD LED A MARCH FROM CAME FOR -- FROM CAMBRIDGE THAT ADDRESSED THE CROWD.

>> >> WE SEE IN THE CLIP THE STOP IN D5 GRAFFITI.

-- STOP I-95 GRAFFITI.

OBVIOUSLY IN FIVE -- I-95 WAS NOT STOPPED.

BUT IT IS NOT WHAT IT WAS GOING TO BE.

>> I 95 RUNS FROM FLORIDA TO MAINE.

IF YOU ZOOM IN A GOES THROUGH BASICALLY EVERY BIG CITY ON THE EAST COAST.

THROUGH D.C., BALTIMORE, NEW YORK CITY.

IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH BOSTON.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAP, THERE IS A SQUIGGLE.

IT GOES AROUND BOSTON AND KEEPS GOING ON THE OTHERS.

THAT IS DATA THE OTHER SIDE.

THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE PROTEST WE JUST SAW, THE ACTIVISM.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO THROUGH TO MAKE A PLANE -- JAMAICA PLAIN'’S, ROXBURY, THE SOUTH END.

THEN LINK UP WITH THE ROAD CALLED THE INNER BELT CUTTING THROUGH CAMBRIDGE PORT, CENTRAL SQUARE, CHARLESTOWN, THEN CONTINUE ON THE OTHERS.

IT WHAT HAVE CUT A HUGE SLICE THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY.

>> ONE OF MY FAVORITE PARTS OF WHAT I HAVE HEARD SO FAR, I GUESS, WHAT I HAVE SEEN, IS YOU TALKING ABOUT THE DISPARATE GROUPS OF PEOPLE FROM THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS YOU GOT TOGETHER TO MAKE THAT NOT HAPPEN.

THERE IS REALLY FASCINATING FOOTAGE.

YOU AND I WERE TALKING BEFORE THE SEGMENT STARTED.

I WAS SAYING I REALLY DID NOT COVER ANYTHING UNTIL THE VERY END.

BUT I DID COVER CHUCK TURNER AND HIS TIME ON CITY COUNCIL.

FOR PEOPLE INTERESTED IN BOSTON CITY POLITICS THERE IS REMARKABLE FOOTAGE OF CHUCK TURNER LEADING OPPOSITION TO THE I-95 PLAN.

>> WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER.

THIS MOVEMENT OF THE ANTI-HIGHWAY MOVEMENT IS HAPPENING IN 1969, 1970, 1971.

IT IS A FEW YEARS BEFORE THE BUSING CRISIS.

I KNOW WGBH HAS BEEN DOING A LOT ON THAT AS WE MARK THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THAT TIME.

IMAGINE YOU HAVE IN THAT MOMENT ACTIVISTS FROM ROXBURY, ACTIVISTS FROM LARGELY WHITE SUBURBS, COMING TOGETHER TO FIGHT AGAINST THESE HIGHWAYS TOGETHER.

ACTIVISTS FROM EAST BOSTON, FROM CAMBRIDGE.

RIGHT ON THE EVE OF WHAT WILL BECOME INCREDIBLY DIVISIVE TIME.

WES I HAVE NOT THOUGHT OF THAT.

TERRIFIC POINT.

DO YOU THINK THIS STORY YOU TELL REFLECTS DYNAMIC UNIQUE TO MASSACHUSETTS OR COULD YOU IMAGINE A SIMILAR PROJECT PLAYING OUT OVER A FEW DECADES IN A SIMILAR WAY IN ANOTHER AMERICAN CITY?

>> YES AND NO.

I THINK THE BASIC KIND OF PIECES ARE THERE IN MANY CITIES, RIGHT?

MANY CITIES HAVE BIG ELEVATED HIGHWAYS THAT DESTROY NEIGHBORHOODS.

MANY CITIES WOULD HAVE AND WOULD STILL LIKE TO PUT THOSE -- REMOVE THOSE HIGHWAYS.

I THINK ONE OF THE PIECES YOU CANNOT IGNORE THAT MAKES MASSACHUSETTS AND BOSTON DIFFERENT, AND MAKES THE PROJECT HAPPEN IS THE SHEER AMOUNT OF POLITICAL POWER CONCENTRATED IN THIS STATE AT THAT TIME.

SO, IN THE 1980'’S, YOU KNOW THIS.

THERE WAS AN INCREDIBLE CONSTELLATION OF TIP O'’NEILL, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

HE HAD BEEN IN CONGRESS FOR 30 YEARS.

HE HAS RISEN TO ITS HIGHEST POST.

YOU HAVE SENATOR TED KENNEDY, PSION OF THE LEGENDARY AMERICAN POLITICAL FAMILY.

YOU HAVE MICHAEL DUKAKIS.

I THINK PEOPLE TODAY MIGHT REMEMBER HIM AS THE GUY THAT LOST THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

BUT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS AN INCREDIBLY POPULAR AND WELL-KNOWN GOVERNOR, RIGHT?

SO, YOU HAVE SO MUCH POLITICAL POWER ON THE LOCAL AND FEDERAL LEVEL THAT IS PUSHING TO MAKE THE PROJECT HAPPEN.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT ANY OTHER STATE COULD HAVE PULLED TOGETHER THAT MUCH POWER.

>> YOU REMIND PEOPLE IN THE PODCAST PRESIDENT REAGAN VETOED THIS.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT BECAME A REALITY ANYWAY.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK A TELLING COUNTEREXAMPLE IS NEW YORK CITY ACTUALLY HAD ITS OWN VERSION OF THE BIG DIG.

A SIMILAR KIND OF PROJECT CALLED WESTWAY.

IT WOULD HAVE PUT MUCH OF THE WEST SIDE HIGHWAY UNDERGROUND.

AGAIN, A SIMILAR IMPETUS.

A SIMILAR VISION.

SIMILAR CHALLENGES.

THAT PROJECT DIED IN CONGRESS ESSENTIALLY IN THE 1980'’S.

>> I KNOW THE CHRISTIAN -- QUESTION YOU FLOAT IN THE SERIES IS WHETHER OR NOT THE UNITED STATES IS STILL CAPABLE OF DOING BIG AMBITIOUS PROJECTS.

OF THE SORT THAT THE BIG DIG WAS.

I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE NOT LISTEN, BUT WHAT IS YOUR TAKE AWAY?

WHAT DID YOU DECIDE THE ANSWER IS?

>> IS NOT A YES OR NO ANSWER.

-- IT IS NOT A YES OR NO ANSWER.

WE SPENT NINE EPISODES TRYING TO TEASE THAT QUESTION APART TO UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE COMPLEXITIES OF IT.

I THINK WHAT I CAME AWAY FEELING FROM THE STORY IS THAT THE BIG DIG CAPTURES SO MANY OF THE CHALLENGES, SO MANY OF THE REASONS WHY BIG VISIONARY PROBLEMS DON'’T HAPPEN OR WHY THEY ARE OVERBUDGET.

WHY THEY ARE BEHIND SCHEDULE.

THOSE REASONS ARE NOT UNIQUE TO THE BIG DIG.

YOU KNOW, MY READING OF THE HISTORY IS NOT THAT THIS WAS JUST ONE GREEDY CONTRACTOR OR ONE CORRUPT POLITICIAN THAT SPOILED THE WHOLE THING.

MY READING OF THE HISTORY IS THESE WERE SYSTEMIC FORCES THAT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY HINDERED AND BLOCKED THIS PROJECT AS IT ATTEMPTED TO MAKE ITS WAY TO COMPLETION.

SO, LOOKING AT THAT HISTORY, IT'’S KIND OF DAUNTING, RIGHT?

TO IMAGINE UNDERTAKING AMBITIOUS PROJECTS LIKE THIS TODAY.

BUT, I THINK IT ALSO PROVIDES SOME REAL CAUSE FOR OPTIMISM.

IN THAT IT DID HAPPEN.

DESPITE ALL THE FLAWS, DESPITE ALL THE DELAYS.

IT DID HAPPEN.

I THINK THERE IS A REAL INSPIRATION TO BE TAKEN FROM THE WAY THIS IDEA, THIS VISION WAS HANDED LIKE A BATON FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE NEXT, ONE LEADER TO THE NEXT.

>> FROM ENEMY TO ENEMY.

>> EXACTLY.

IT DID IN YOUR.

IT DID SURVIVE.

AND IT DID TRANSFORM THE CITY.

I DO NOT MEAN TO SAY THERE ARE NO CRITIQUES TO BE MADE OF THE PROJECT OR HOW IT WAS EXECUTED.

BUT IN MY VIEW IT IS UNDENIABLY TRANSFORMATIVE.

>>IAN COSS, CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN ON A FASCINATING PROJECT AND THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME ABOUT IT.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>> THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME BACK NEXT WEEK AND TELL US WHAT YOU THINK.

THE EMAIL IS TALKINGPOLITICS@GBHNEWS.ORG.

WHILE YOU ARE ADDED SIGN-UP FOR OUR POLITICS NEWSLETTERS.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD NIGHT.