♪ >>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE OPENING OF THE RAFAH CROSSING SUFFERS YET ANOTHER SETBACK WITH CRITICAL AID FOR GAZA HANGING IN THE BALANCE, I SPEAK TO HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS ON THE GROUND.

AND THE CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL CLIMBS BY THE HOUR.

WE HAVE A REPORT ON THE CHILDREN CAUGHT UP IN ISRAEL'S WAR ON HAMAS.

THEN, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS BOTH HAMAS AND PUTIN SHARE A COMMON GOAL TO ANNIHILATE A NEIGHBORING DAURK.

I SPEAK TO VETERAN FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST ROBIN WRITE ABOUT THE FEAR THAT WAR WILL SPILL OUT ACROSS THE REGION.

AS GROUND INCURSION LOOMS, FAMILIES AWAIT NEWS OF THEIR LOVED ONES HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS.

MAY CONVERSATION WITH LAWYER AND FORMER HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR ORY SLONIM.

ALSO AHEAD, BITTER DIVISIONS LEAVE CONGRESS IN LIMBO WITHOUT A HOUSE SPEAKER.

MICHEL MARTIN TALKS TO NPR'S STEVE INSKEEP ABOUT LESSONS WE CAN DRAW FROM HISTORY.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SIT SITTING FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IN GAZA THE U.N.

WARNS THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND ARE INCREASINGLY DIRE WITH FOOD, WATER AND MEDICINE ALL RUNNING CRITICALLY LOW AS ISRAEL'S SIEGE ON GAZA AND WAR ON HAMAS CONTINUES.

THE RAFAH CROSSING BETWEEN EGYPT AND GAZA RATE NOW TRUCKS CARRYING VITAL AID ARE UNABLE TO GOAT TO THOSE WHO DESPERATELY NEED IT.

HERE IS THE U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL HIGHLIGHTING IT THIS NEED AS HE ARRIVED AT THE CROSSING TODAY.

>> BEHIND THESE WALLS WE HAVE 2 MILLION PEOPLE THAT IS SUFFERING ENORMOUSLY.

THERE IS NO WATER, NO FOOD, NO MEDICINE, NO FUEL.

THAT IS UNDER FIRE.

THAT NEEDS EVERYTHING TO SURVIVE.

ON THIS SIDE WE HAVE SEEN SO MANY TRUCKS LOADED WITH WATER, WITH FUEL, WITH MEDICINES, WITH FOOD, EXACTLY THE SAME THING THAT I NEEDED ON THIS SIDE OF THE WALL.

SO THESE TRUCKS ARE NOT JUST TRUCKS.

THEY ARE A LIFELINE.

THEY ARE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH FOR SO MANY PEOPLE IN GAZA.

>> EGYPT IS EXPECTED TO GIVE THE GREEN LIGHT THIS WEEKEND.

AS THE ISRAEL AMASSES A HUGE NUMBER OF TROOPS AND EQUIPMENT NEAR THE GAZA BORDER AND THE POSSIBILITY OF A GROUND OFFENSIVE BUILDS THE URGENCY INCREASES.

THE EGYPTIAN FOOD BANK IS ONE OF THE ORGANIZATIONS EAGER TO CROSS AND HELP.

ITS CEO, MOHSEN SARHAN, JOINS US FROM THE BORDER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME DURING THIS CRITICAL MOMENT WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO GET AID TO THOSE DESPERATELY IN NEED.

I KNOW THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION IS PART OF A LARGER ALLIANCE TO HELP SEE THOSE TRUCKS CROSS INTO GAZA AND DELIVER THE AID.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT THEY WERE ALLOWED TO CROSS IN EARLIER TODAY.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE CASE RIGHT NOW.

GIVE US AN UPDATE WHERE THINGS STAND AT THE MOMENT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING DELIVER MESSAGE TO THE WORLD.

TODAY WAS DAY SEVEN THAT WE ARE COMING HERE AT THE RAFAH CROSSING.

I THINK TODAY WE BREACHED MORE THAN 200 TRUCKS.

THAT'S APPROXIMATELY 4,000 METRIC TONS OF FOOD.

THAT'S OF COURSE NOT COUNTING SEVEN OR EIGHT -- INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATIONS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES THAT WANT TO HELP IN THAT HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

TODAY WE HAD SOME HOPE WITH ANTONIO GUTERRES COMING TO THE RAFAH CROSSING HIMSELF.

WE THOUGHT WE ARE GOING IN.

RIGHT NOW I THINK WE ARE ALREADY SEVEN DAYS, THE TRUCKS ARE THERE, THE DRIVERS ARE IN THE TRUCKS, READY JUST TO GO TO THE OTHER SIDE.

AND THEN THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE U.N.

GAVE A SPEECH AND WENT AWAY.

SO, TO US, WHAT IS EXPECTED?

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

HOW IS THIS EVER GOING TO UNFOLD?

THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE WORLD CAN'T CONVINCE ISRAEL TO STOP THE KILLING FOR A FEW HOURS TO GET THE AID IN?

THIS IS VERY, TO ME, I'M SORRY I AM A LITTLE BIT FRUSTRATED BECAUSE TO ME I AM SEEING PEOPLE DYING ON THE OTHER SIDE.

I'M CALLING DOCTORS IN GAZA.

THEY RAN OUT OF ANESTHETICS.

NOW THEY HAVE TO DO SURGERIES WITHOUT ANESTHETICS AND ANTIBIOTICS.

IT'S NOT JUST GENOCIDE AND ETHNIC CLEANSING FOR THE ENTIRE POPULATION, IT'S TORTURE BEFORE THAT'S HAPPENING.

NOW THEY DON'T WANT TO STOP THE KILLING FOR A FEW HOURS TO GET THE AID IN?

THIS IS VERY MEDIEVAL.

AND THIS IS STARTING -- I STARTED IN THE U.S. AND I LIVED IN THE U.S. AND I HAVE MANY GOOD FRIENDS IN THE U.S. AND TOGETHER MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE, BUT NOW WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE KILLING I AM SEEING IN FRONT OF ME AND IT'S FINANCED BY THE TAXPAYERS OF THE WEST AND U.S.

IT MAKES ME SAD -- THE HUMAN RIGHTS.

>> SO I TAKE IT YOU'RE DISAPPOINTED WITH WHAT YOU HEARD WITH THE U.N. GENERAL SECRETARY.

WHAT MORE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HIM DO?

>> I'D LIKE TO SEE HIM AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY OF PEACE IN WORLD TRY TO MAKE ISRAEL STOP THE KILLING JUST FOR A FEW HOURS BECAUSE MYSELF, AND I'M SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF AS AN AID WORKER, THE WAY THAT ISRAEL IS OPERATING IN THAT ENVIRONMENT IN GAZA, TO ME IT'S VERY CLEAR, METHODICAL PLAN FOR AN ETHNIC CLEANSING OF AN ENTIRE POPULATION.

I WANT YOU TO REMEMBER THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE WOF ISRAEL WHEN HE SAID I WILL STARVE THOSE PEOPLE AND TREAT THEM AS HUMAN ANIMALS.

THAT PLAN IS EXECUTED NOW TO THE LETTER.

PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED EVERY DAY.

NOW IN GAZA PEOPLE CANNOT GET THE DEAD FROM UNDER THE RUBBLE.

THEY DON'T HAVE EQUIPMENT AND THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MANPOWER TO KEEP UP WITH THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STUCK DEAD UNDER THE RUBBLE.

NOW GAZA IS TURNING FROM THE WORLD'S BIGGEST OPEN AIR PRISON AND THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THAT.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN PRISON FOR 70 YEARS INTO THE WORLD'S BIGGEST OPEN AIR GRAVEYARD.

AND THIS IS MAKING ME VERY SAD.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE ISSUED AN ULTIMATUM THAT AID CAN ONLY COME ACROSS IF IT DOESN'T COME IN THE HANDS OF HAMAS.

WHO ARE YOUR POINTS OF CONTACT ON THE GROUND TO ENSURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

>> OKAY.

LET ME FIRST START BY SAYING THAT THAT CONDITION DEFIES THE HUMANITARIAN AID CONCEPT OF NEUTRALITY.

THAT IS FOR STARTERS.

AS AID WORKERS, IT THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AND DEFIES THE CONCEPT OF AID.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

>> I THINK THE PREMISE IS THE CONCERN IS THAT THE AID DOESN'T GET TO THOSE IN NEED, BUT GO AHEAD.

>> YEAH.

BUT THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

DEFIES THE CONCEPT OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE NEUTRALITY, THAT IT IS GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE STARVING, REGARDLESS OF WHO THEY ARE.

OKAY.

LET'S MOVE TO THE OTHER SIDE.

IF I WANT TO DETERMINE, NO, I WILL NOT GIVE THE PERPETRATORS AID AND ONLY TO GOOD PEOPLE, THEY ARE ALL PALESTINIANS.

IF I GO TO THE U.S. AND TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, I GO TO A STATE THERE, TOLD GET ME ONLY THE PEOPLE, GIVE AID ONLY TO THE PEOPLE OF GERMAN ORIGIN.

HOW DO I KNOW THEM?

HAMAS DOESN'T HAVE I.D.s OF A PERSON THAT IS WRITTEN HAMAS.

IT'S AN ARMED RESISTANCE MOVEMENT OCCUPATION INSIDE ISRAEL.

HOW WIE KNOW THEM IN ORDER NOT TO GIVE THEM AID.

THIS IS A CONDITION DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY AND STRATEGICALLY TO CONTINUE WITH THAT ETHNIC CLEANSING.

>> YEAH, I WOULD JUST -- WE ARE GETTING ALERTS.

THE PRESIDENT SAYS THAT THE FIRST DELIVERY OF AID FROM THE TRUCKS IS LIKELY TO CROSS IN THE NEXT 24 TO 48 HOURS.

I KNOW THAT YOU ARE DESPERATE TO GET IT ACROSS SOONER TO THOSE IN NEED.

PLEASE KEEP US POSTED WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM DOCTORS THERE ON THE GROUND DACARE FOR THESE PATIENTS AND CIVILIANS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> DELIVERING OUR MESSAGE TO THE WORLD, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, LET'S BRING IN BENOIT CARPENTER FROM THE INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE RED CROSS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THE HINDRANCE NOW IN GETTING AID.

YOU HEARD THE FRUSTRATION THERE FROM MOHSEN.

WHAT MORE CAN BE DONE AND WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THE OTHER OPTIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT AID GETS THERE PERHAPS EVEN BEFORE THE NEXT 48 HOURS?

>> GOOD EVENING.

WELL, YES.

I MEAN, THE NEGOTIATION IS ONGOING.

WE ARE FOLLOWING THEM CLOSELY.

WE ARE ON BOTH SIDES WITH THE EGYPTIAN CRESCENT, THERE IS NOW COORDINATING AND SUPPORTING THE EGYPT GOVERNMENT IN COORDINATING THE AID THAT HAS ARRIVED ON THE EGYPTIAN BORDER.

THERE IS HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS THERE READY TO CROSS THE BORDER.

ON THE OTHER SIDE.

WE HAVE THE PALESTINIAN RED CROSS WHO IS ALSO READY IF CALLED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

NOW THE CONDITIONS FOR THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN COMPLETELY DEFINED.

ONE KEY CONDITION FOR ANY HUMANITARIAN ACCESS WILL BE SAFETY FOR THE PEOPLE.

THAT WILL BE ASSESSING THE HUMANITARIAN AID THAT ENTERS GAZA, SAFETY FOR THE AID WORKERS, WHOEVER IS GOING TO BE DISTRIBUTING THAT.

>> WE ARE HEARING URGENT NEED FOR FOOD AND DEHYDRATION AMONG THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HELP.

WHAT SPECIFICALLY CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE WATER SHORTAGE?

AND THE DESPERATION TO GET WATER TO THOSE IN NEED.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WATER IS LIFE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE WATER, YOU CAN'T LIVE.

THAT'S JUST, PERIOD.

SO WE HAVE HEARD, WE HAD REPORT OF PEOPLE DRINKING WATER FROM, YOU KNOW, PLACES NOT POTABLE, DRINKABLE WATER.

THAT COULD LEAD TO MASTIFF DISASTER.

SO WE HAVE TO BRING WATER VERY, VERY QUICKLY IN GAZA AS URGENTLY AS POSSIBLE.

THAT'S A QUESTION OF LIFE AND DEATH.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE WATER, YOU CAN'T LIVE.

>> OF COURSE.

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN FOR WHEN THIS INVASION BY THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES BEGINS, BECAUSE BY ALL INDICATION IT APPEARS TO BE IMMINENT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE A CALL THAT WE HAD REPEATED AND REPEATED FOR DAYS, WHICH IS THE RESPECT OF THE INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

CIVILIANS MUST BE PROTECTED.

CIVILIANS IN STRUCTURES MUST BE PROTECTED.

HOSPITALS AND HEALTH CARE WORKERS MUST BE PROTECTED.

IN ANY CONFLICT, THAT'S THE BASIC RULES AND THEY APPLY TO ANY CONFLICT.

>> CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT YOUR STAFF IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE I KNOW IN THE FIRST WEEK OF WAR YOU REPORTED THAT FIVE WERE KILLED IN GAZA.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU TELL US?

>> YES, WE HAD FOUR.

FOUR PARAMEDICS FROM THE PALESTINIAN RED CROSS THAT WERE -- LOST THEIR LIVES IN THE FIRST WEEK.

WE HAD ALSO THREE PARAMEDICS FROM THE -- IN ISRAEL THAT LOST THEIR LIVES THE WEEKEND BEFORE.

THE CONDITIONS, THE WORKING CONDITIONS ARE ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE.

YOU HAVE TO RUN MEDICAL SERVICES LIKE AMBULANCES RUNNING AROUND EVERYWHERE IN GAZA WHERE IT IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT PEOPLE, TO HELP WITH THE INJURED, AND YOU DO THAT AT THE RISK OF YOUR OWN LIFE.

SO THAT DREADFUL CONDITION FOR ANY HUMANITARIAN WORKERS.

IN THE HOSPITALS, THERE IS NO MEDICAL SUPPLIES.

THERE IS NO ELECTRICITY IN SOME OF THEM.

AND HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN HOSTING A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SEEKING REFUGE BECAUSE THEY ARE THINKING THIS IS A SAFE PLACE TO BE.

SO THE CONDITIONS FOR -- THE PALESTINIAN -- ARE REALLY DIFFICULT.

>> CAN I ASK A QUESTION THAT I HAVE BEEN HOPING TO ASK MOHSEN BECAUSE HE NOTED HIS TRUCKS, SOME HAVE BEEN IT'SING THERE SIX DAYS.

WE GOT NEWS FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT HE BELIEVES TRUCKS WILL BE ALLOWED TO ENTER WITHIN THE NEXT 24 TO 48 HOURS.

IS THERE A CONCERN AMONG THE SUPPLIES ON THESE TRUCKS ABOUT EXPIRATION, WHETHER IT BE AMONG FOOD OR SOME OF THE MEDICATION THAT THEY MAY PROVIDE?

>> YEAH, IT IS ONE OF THE CONCERNS BECAUSE YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, PERISHABLE FOODS.

I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE A LIMIT IN TERMS OF HOW LONG THEY COULD SIT IN A TRUCK.

SO, YES, THAT'S CLEARLY ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT WE HAVE, AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS EVEN MORE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE THAT -- THOSE TRUCKS CROSSING THE BORDER AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

>> WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE, ISRAELI COUNTERPARTS AND WOULD YOU ARE WORKING WITH THERE IN TERMS OF HOW THINGS CAN BE SPED UP?

>> ON THE SIDE, THEY HAVE BEEN ACTIVE FROM THE EARLY HOURS PROVIDING, AGAIN, AMBULANCES, DOCTORS AND THEY ARE, OBVIOUSLY -- AND CARRY ON THE OPERATIONS ON THEIR SIDE TO RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF THE POPULATION IN ISRAEL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

B BENOIT CARPENTER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, PLEASE KEEP US POSTED ON ANY DEVELOPMENTS THAT YOU'RE HEARING.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW MORE THAN 4,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN GAZA.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE HAMAS-CONTROLLED MINISTRY OF HEALTH THERE.

TRAGICALLY, 40% OF THAT NUMBER IS SAID TO BE MADE UP OF CHILDREN.

CORRESPONDENT JOMANA KARADSHEH HAS THEIR STORY.

A WARNING, SOME OF THE IMAGES AND STORIES IN THIS REPORT ARE GRAPHIC AND DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

>> WHY?

WHY HAVE YOU GONE, MY SON, HE WAILS.

YOU WANTED TO BE A PILOT.

YOU'RE ONLY SLEEPING, HE SAYS, KISSING HIS BOY'S LIFELESS BODY.

EVERY DAY OF THIS WAR HAS BROUGHT PAIN.

PAIN NO PARENT WANTS TO EVER LIVE THROUGH.

EVERY 15 MINUTES IN GAZA, A CHILD IS KILLED, A GROUP SAYS.

MORE THAN 1,500 CHILDREN KILLED SO FAR IN A WAR THAT'S ONLY JUST BEGINNING.

A WAR THEY DIDN'T CHOOSE.

ONE FOR WHICH THEY ARE PAYING THE HEAVIEST PRICE.

THOSE WHO LIVE HAUNTED BY WHAT THEY'VE SURVIVED.

THE LUCKY ONES STILL HAVE PARENTS TO HOLD THEIR HANDS.

A 10-YEAR-OLD DOESN'T KNOW THE STRIKE THAT LEFT HIM INJURED TOOK AWAY HIS MOM, DAD, AND THREE SISTERS.

HIS AUNT THE ONLY ONE LEFT TO TRY TO COMFORT HIM.

HE WAKES UP, HE CRIES.

THEY GIVE HIM PAINKILLERS AND HE GOES BACK TO SLEEP, SHE SAYS.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT HIM.

THE SHOCK WHEN HE WAKES UP AND FINDS OUT THAT HIS MOTHER AND FATHER ARE GONE, HIS AUNT SAYS.

HE IS THE YOUNGEST.

HE WAS SO ATTACHED TO HIS PARENTS.

HE USED TO PLAY FOOTBALL WITH HIS DAD.

HE WOULD GO WITH HIM EVERYWHERE.

FAMILIES HERE SAY THEY ALL HEEDED THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S WARNING AND MOVED SOUTH, THINKING IT WOULD BE SAFE, BUT IT WASN'T.

MEDICS INJURED IN THE HIPS AND LEGS.

SHE LOST HER MOTHER AND SIBLINGS IN AN AIRSTRIKE.

A GIRL IN THE THIRD GRADE, WHAT DID SHE DO, HER AUNT ASKS.

DID SHE SHOOT ISRAELIS?

SHE DIDN'T.

WE ARE PEACEFUL PEOPLE IN OUR HOPES, SHE SAYS.

WE DIDN'T LAUNCH ANY ROCKETS OR SHOOT.

WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

A 9th-YEAR-OLD OUT PLAYING WHEN HIS FAMILY HOME WAS HIT.

AT HOSPITAL WITH HEAD AND LEG INJURIES.

WE WERE PLAYING IN THE GARDEN AND SUDDENLY A MISSILE LANDED ON US, HE SAYS.

TREES FELL ON ME.

MY MOTHER, MY FATHER, MY BROTHER AND GRANDFATHER ARE INJURED.

MY UNCLE BROUGHT ME UNCONSCIOUS TO THE HOSPITAL.

MOST OF THE INJURED IN GAZA, DOCTORS SAY, ARE CHILDREN AND WOMEN WITH NO POWER, NO WATER, AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES RUNNING OUT, THE HEALTH CARE THEY NEED IS ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE.

AROUND HALF OF GAZA'S POPULATION ARE CHILDREN.

MOST HAVE ONLY EVER KNOWN LIFE UNDER A BLOCKADE AND WAR.

NOW IN THIS KILL BOX, NO PLACE SAFE FROM ISRAEL'S RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT.

DESPERATE FOR ANY PROMISE OF SAFETY, MANY HAVE FLOODED A HOSPITAL GROUNDS.

THE CONSTANT BUZZ OF MILITARY DRONES OVERHEAD HAS BECOME PART OF EXISTENCE IN GAZA.

SOME FIND A LITTLE ESCAPE FROM THE LIVING NIGHTMARE NO CHILD SHOULD EVER ENDURE.

JANE AND JULIA SAY THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD WAS FLATTENED BY AIRSTRIKES.

>> WE HAVE BEEN LIVING IN SO MUCH FEAR, PANIC AND ANXIETY, SHE SAYS.

WHENEVER I HEAR AIRSTRIKES, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

I HUG MY MOM.

7-YEAR-OLD JULIA SAYS SHE HOLDS HER MOM, TOO, AND HIDES.

THEY ARE NOW LIVING UNDER THE STAIRS.

I GET UPSET WHEN I SEE INJURED HERE IN THE HOSPITAL, JULIA SAYS.

WHEN I GROW UP, I WANT TO BECOME A DOCTOR SO I CAN TREAT THEM SO NECK GET BETTER.

IT'S A WAR ON HAMAS, THEY SAY.

BUT IT IS THE YOUNGEST WHO BEAR THE BRUNT.

SNARED IN VIOLENCE THEY CAN'T CONTROL, TRAPPED IN THIS RACE AGAINST DEATH.

>> WE WANT TO BRING YOU THIS BREAKING NEWS.

A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT FOR HOSTAGE NEGOTIATIONS.

AS HAMAS SAYS HAS RELEASED TWO U.S.

HOSTAGES FOR, QUOTE, HUMANITARIAN REASONS.

NOW, IT COMES AS QATAR MEDIATES THIS, WORKING FOR THE RELEASE OF 203 HOSTAGES, THE IDF SAYS HAMAS IS CURRENTLY HOLDING.

LET'S GET NOW TO ROBIN WRIGHT, WHO CAN TALK TO US MORE ABOUT THIS.

A CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR "THE NEW YORKER" AND SHE JOINS US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH LAST NIGHT.

BUT, ROBIN, I WANT TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS BREAKING NEWS.

ACCORDING TO OUR ALEX MARQUARDT AND CAITLIN COLLINS, TWO AMERICAN HOSTAGES, A MOTHER AND DAUGHTER BEING RELEASED BY HAMAS FOR HUMANITARIAN GROUNDS.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS, ESPECIALLY AS WE'RE WAITING FOR AN IMMINENT GROUND INCURSION BY THE IDF INTO GAZA?

>> NEEDLESS TO SAY, TWO PEOPLE BEING FREED IS A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, BUT REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE SOME 200 MORE STILL REMAINING HOSTAGES TO BOTH HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD.

SO THERE IS A VERY LONG WAY TO GO.

I THINK IN SOME CASES THE HOSTAGE TAKERS KNOW THAT THERE ARE BENEFITS TO RELEASING THOSE THAT THEY CAN'T TAKE CARE OF, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO BE HELD NECESSARY FOR THEIR DEATHS OF THESE PEOPLE.

SO THIS IS A TOKEN MOVE.

IT IS NOT IT'S NOWHERE NEAR A RESOLUTION AND WE SHOULD NOT HAVE FALSE HOPE THAT THE RELEASE OF OTHERS OR ALL OF THEM IS ALSO IMMINENT.

>> THIS IS THE RESULT OF NEGOTIATIONS DIRECTLY BETWEEN QATAR AND HAMAS BECAUSE ISRAEL IS NOT NEGOTIATING WITH HAMAS ON THIS MATTER.

TALK TO US MORE ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE QATARIS THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS AS IT RELATES TO RELEASING HOSTAGES.

>> WELL, QATAR IS A TINY COUNTRY IN THE PERSIAN GULF.

IT HOSTS THE LARGEST U.S. MILITARY BASE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE THE UNITED STATES WAS DEPENDENT FOR THE WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ, BUT IT ALSO HOSTS SOME OF THE HAMAS LEADERS.

QATAR AND EGYPT HAVE BOTH BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN NEGOTIATING TEMPORARY CEASEFIRES IN THE PAST, DEALING WITH HOSTAGES, QATAR MOST RECENTLY HELPED NEGOTIATE THE END OF THE HOSTAGE ORDEAL, THE FIVE AMERICANS HELD IN IRAN.

SO ITS ROLE IS PIVOTAL RIGHT NOW.

IT WILL BE RELIED ON BY THE UNITED STATES TO CONDUCT FURTHER NEGOTIATIONS WHETHER IT'S TRYING TO PRESSURE HAMAS TO USE MORE RESTRAINT OR TO LIMIT ITS ACTIVITIES, ITS INCURSIONS, ROCKET FIRE, PROBABLY NOT SUCCESSFULLY, BUT IT WILL BE NEGOTIATING TO TRY TO WIN FREEDOM FOR SOME OF THE AMERICANS ON HUMANITARIAN ISSUES.

>> I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THESE ARE DUAL NATIONALS, AMERICAN ISRAELIS, IT APPEARS, AND THERE ARE HOSTAGES HELD FROM ABOUT 31 COUNTRIES BY HAMAS TERRORISTS.

SPEAK TO THE FACT THAT THESE ARE AMERICANS AND WHAT SIGNAL THAT MAY BE SENDING THE U.S. BY HAMAS.

>> WELL, THE UNITED STATES HAS THE HIGHEST PROFILE IN THIS WAR.

IT HAS THE MILITARY DEPLOYED IN THE RED SEA IN THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN.

IT'S AWARE THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS SUPPLIED FULL SUPPORT TO ISRAEL.

SO THE AMERICANS ARE, OBVIOUSLY, THE HIGHEST VALUE AND IF YOU WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE, AS I SAID, I THINK THIS MAY BE A MATTER OF CONVENIENCE FOR HAMAS AS MUCH AS A HUMANITARIAN GESTURE.

WHATEVER IT CLAIMS.

BUT REMEMBER HOSTAGE AFFAIRS OFTEN LEAD TO, WHETHER IT'S WOMEN, THE CHILDREN, THE INFIRM, THE ELDERLY, THEY ARE OFTEN THE FIRST ONES RELEASED.

WHEN THE IRANIAN STUDENTS TOOK OVER THE AMERICAN EMBASSY IN TEHRAN IN 1982, THEY RELEASED THE AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE WOMEN FIRST LONG BEFORE THE MEN HELD FOR 444 DAYS.

>> YEAH, IT IS BELIEVED THAT HAMAS IS HOLDING DOZENS OF BABIES AND ELDERLY AS WELL.

SO FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THIS MAY BE BECAUSE THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT THEY SIMPLY CAN'T CARE FOR AT THIS POINT.

BUT IT DOES REITERATE WHAT THE PRESIDENT SPOKE OF YESTERDAY IN HIS SPEECH TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND WHAT WE HEARD HIM SAY WHILE HE WAS IN ISRAEL AND THAT IS THE RELEASE OF THESE HOSTAGES, SPECIFICALLY AMERICAN HOSTAGES, IS A TOP PRIORITY FOR HIM.

SO THIS IN A WAY, EVEN IF IT'S JUST A SYMBOLIC MOVE AND, OBVIOUSLY, YOU WANT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE HOSTAGES RELEASED, SIGNIFIES THAT THIS WAS A PRIORITY FOR THE PRESIDENT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

BUT I FEAR THAT THE HOSTAGES GIVE THE HAMAS AND THE ISLAMIC JIHAD MOVEMENT A LOT OF LEVERAGE, AND IT MAY WELL BE THAT THEY ARE HELD LONG AFTER THE CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES.

REMEMBER -- WAS HELD FOR FIVE YEARS AND IN THE END ISRAEL WON HIS RELEASE FROM HAMAS IN EXCHANGE FOR 1,100 POLITICAL PRISONERS.

SO THE COST WILL BE HIGH.

THIS WILL BE THE KIND OF HUMAN DRAMA, THE LEVERAGE THAT HAMAS HAS IN NEGOTIATING THE RELEASE OF ITS PRISONERS AND POSSIBLY MORE THAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN A HOSTAGE, A HOSTAGE CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT KIND OF WAR, SO MANY HELD BY AN ADVERSARY.

>> AND THE ISRAELIS HAVE CALLED THE RELEASE OF VIDEOS.

WE SAW THE VIDEO OF -- PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE ON THE PART OF HAMAS.

CAN YOU TALK A BIT ABOUT HOW THIS IMPACTS SOME OF THE OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE DESPERATELY WAITING TO HEAR ABOUT THE CONDITION OF THEIR LOVED ONES BEING HELD?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE HUMAN DRAMA RIPS AT YOUR SOUL.

WHEN THE UNITED STATES HAD 52 HOSTAGES HELD IN TEHRAN, IT BECAME A NATIONAL SYMBOL AS JUST AS THE FLAG AND APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL.

THIS IS THE KIND OF DRAMA THAT HAMAS ACTUALLY WANTS TO PROVE THAT HOW MIGHTY IT IS, THAT ISRAEL IS NOT INVINCIBLE.

SO IT WILL USE THIS -- THE HOLDING OF ALL OF THESE CHILDREN, WOMEN, ELDERLY, THE ISRAELIS AND OTHER NATIONALITIES AS LONG AS IT CAN TO HEIGHTEN THE DRAMA, TO HEIGHTEN ITS PROFILE.

AND THAT'S THE DANGER, THAT THE HOSTAGE-TAKING IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT COMPONENT TO FIGHTING A MILITARY WAR.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ROBIN, STAND BY FOR US.

I WANT TO GO TO NIC ROBERTSON WHO IS JOINING US NOW FROMISRAE.

YOU SPOKE TOO SOON, 30 MINUTES AGO SAYING IT WAS A QUIET EVENING.

OBVIOUSLY, NEWS OF THESE TWO HOSTAGES BEING RELEASED.

IT COMES JUST HOURS AFTER THE IDF HAD ISSUED A NOTICE THAT THEY BELIEVE A LOT OF THESE HOSTAGES ARE INDEED ALIVE.

WHAT IS THE REACTION FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO THIS NEWS?

>> Reporter: WE DON'T HAVE -- AT LEAST WE HERE DON'T HAVE THAT REACTION YET.

THE REACTION FROM APPARENTLY HAMAS OR ONE OF THE OTHER GROUPS INSIDE OF GAZA BECAUSE JUST AS THAT INFORMATION ABOUT THOSE TWO, THE MOTHER AND DAUGHTER, THE AMERICAN MOTHER AND DAUGHTER BEING RELEASED AND HANDED OVER TO THE RED CROSS JUST AS THAT INFORMATION WAS BECOMING PUBLIC, AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS A SALVO OF ROCKETS COMING OUT OF GAZA.

THEY WERE INTERCEPTED BY IRON DOME.

WE HAVE JUST HEARD A COUPLE OF EXPLOSIONS, ISRAELI MISSILES OR ARTILLERY, PROBABLY ISRAELI MISSILES, INTO THE GAZA STRIP BEHIND US.

SO WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE QUIETNESS OF THE DAY, THAT DID SEEM TO SPEAK TO SOMETHING HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES.

AND IT DOES SEEM THAT SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES.

BUT THAT WAS ONLY TWO HOSTAGES OUT OF MAYBE 200.

1%.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAMAS GOT IN EXCHANGE FOR THAT, IF ANYTHING.

THEY SAID THEY DID IT ON HUMANITARIAN GROUNDS TO SHOW THE WORLD AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES THAT THEY SAY THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS LYING WHEN HE DESCRIBES HAMAS.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO HAMAS.

BUT I THINK IT GIVES YOU THE -- GIVES YOU AN UNDERSTANDING HERE, JUST AS YOUR LAST -- JUST AS YOUR LAST GUEST WAS SAYING, THAT THIS COULD BE A VERY, VERY DRAWN-OUT PROCESS.

THE PRICE THAT HAMAS WILL WANT TO EXTRACT FOR EACH HOSTAGE COULD BE VERY HIGH IN TERMS OF PRISONER EXCHANGES AND OTHER THINGS.

AND AT THE MOMENT THE PRICE THEY SEEM TO EXTRACT SO FAR TODAY WAS A PAUSE, IT SEEMED, SUBJECTIVELY FROM OUR POSITION ANYWAY, IN MISSILE AND ARTILLERY STRIKES ON THEIR POSITIONS INSIDE GAZA.

IT'S VERY HARD TO PREDICT WHERE THE SITUATION DEVELOPS FROM NOW.

IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT HAMAS, AS EXPECTED, ARE USING THESE HUNDREDS OF HOSTAGES TO THEIR ADVANTAGE TO TRY TO MAKE THEMSELVES SAFER, TO TRY TO HOLD OFF AN ISRAELI INCURSION, AND TO CHANGE THE GLOBAL NARRATIVE ABOUT THEM, WHICH IS SO CRITICAL TO THEIR FUTURE AS WELL.

>> AND THAT INCURSION IS EXPECTED IMMINENTLY, AS WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING.

TO REITERATE ONCE AGAIN, THE LATEST REPORTING THAT WE HAVE AT CNN, TWO AMERICAN HOSTAGES, A MOTHER AND DAUGHTER, ARE BEING RELEASED BY HAMAS.

THE TWO ARE BEING HANDED OVER TO THE RED CROSS AND ARE, QUOTE, ON THEIR WAY OUT.

THE TWO ARE BEING RELEASED, QUOTE, ON HUMANITARIAN GROUNDS BECAUSE IT IS BELIEVED THAT THE MOTHER IS IN POOR HEALTH.

NIC ROBERTSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AND PLEASE KEEP US POSTED ON ANY DEVELOPMENTS THAT YOU HEAR WITHIN THE HOUR.

JOINING ME FOR MORE IS ISRAELI LAWYER ORY SLONIM.

A SPECIAL ADVISOR TO THE DEFENSE MINISTER, HE WAS PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN NUMEROUS HOSTAGE NEGOTIATIONS AND HE CURRENTLY PART OF A VOLUNTEER GROUP ASSISTING THE FAMILIES CAUGHT UP IN THE WAR.

ORY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO THIS NEWS THAT TWO AMERICANS, A MOTHER AND DAUGHTER, ARE, QUOTE, ON THEIR WAY OUT?

>> FIRSTLY, I AM HAPPY ON ANY RELEASE OF ONE OR TWO OR EVEN ALL OF THEM.

SO I'M VERY HAPPY FOR THE FAMILIES OF THESE TWO LADIES.

BUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A SMALL DROP IN THE WHOLE PROCESS.

A SMALL DROP BECAUSE NEVER IN OUR HISTORY OF EXCHANGING PRISONERS OF WAR OR CITIZENS, NEGOTIATING, WE HAVE NEVER SUCH A BIG NUMBER AND SUCH A CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE A WAR IN BETWEEN.

SO I BELIEVE THERE IS A MIXTURE OF HAPPINESS AND WE ARE VERY HAPPY, BUT THERE ARE 200 MORE, AND THAT THEY ARE EXPECTING, YOU KNOW, THE NEXT IN THE VERY NEAR STAGE, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT IS A TACTIC.

A TACTIC REALLY, RELEASE OF THESE PEOPLE, AND I'M IN A MIXTURE OF BEING HAPPY AND VERY WORRYING ABOUT THE NEXT STAGES.

>> OF COURSE WE ARE ALL VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE NEXT STAGES AND THINKING ABOUT THE FAMILIES' LOVED ONES STILL BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS.

THIS NEWS COMES A FEW HOURS AFTER THE IDF SAID THAT A MAJORITY OF HOSTAGES ARE ALIVE.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT MECHANISMS THEY MAY HAVE IN DETERMINING THAT AT THIS POINT?

>> THERE IS, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF DARKNESS ON EVERYTHING, WHICH IS GOING THERE.

PART OF THE FACTS ARE KNOWN.

MOSTLY NONE.

AND I THINK THAT AFTER FINISHING THIS, WE STAY IN THE SAME STAGE OF ANOTHER 200 CITIZENS AND HUMAN BEINGS, THEY ARE ALL PEOPLE, BABIES, MOTHERS WITH BABIES, BABIES WITHOUT MOTHER, AND SOME YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS WHO WENT TO DANCE IF THE DESERT AND, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE THERE.

SOME OF THEM WERE RAPED IN PUBLIC THERE.

SO, YOU KNOW, AFTER MY MIND, THE WHOLE FAMILIES AND THE WHOLE COUNTRY WILL BE HAPPY AND THEY WILL CELEBRATE THESE TWO.

WE ARE IN THE SAME STAGE LIKE WE WERE YESTERDAY.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ASSISTING IN ADVISING SOME OF THE FAMILIES OF THESE HOSTAGES.

I CAN'T BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH.

WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT YOU ARE TELLING THEM?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO MAINTAIN HOPE, BUT REALISM IS CRUCIAL AS WELL.

WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM, AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, CHANGES AFTER NEWS OF THESE TWO AMERICANS RELEASED?

>> I'M NOT A CIVIL SERVANT.

I AM ONE OF QUITE MANY, MANY PEOPLE IN THE FAMILIES HEADQUARTERS.

I AM THERE BECAUSE I HAVE SOMETHING LIKE 30 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE.

NOT WITH SUCH A CASE.

THIS CASE IS UNPRECEDENTED.

NEVER.

NEVER IN ISRAEL.

NEVER IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

SO WHEN WE -- THE FAMILY, THEY BELIEVE.

AND IF THEY LOOK AT US NOW, I THINK THAT IT'S HOPEFUL.

THE TWO FAMILIES, EVERYTHING IS GOOD AND THEY WILL COME HOME IN THE NEXT FEW HOURS.

BUT ALL THE REST ARE IN THE SAME POSITION, HOPING, KNOWING SOME OF THEM KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT THEIR DEAREST.

SO FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, TALKING WITH THE FAMILIES, HOPE IS ALWAYS THERE.

ALWAYS THERE.

I'M OPTIMISTIC AND REALISTIC, BUT I AM -- I BELIEVE THAT -- I NEED -- I NEED MY OPTIMISM TO BE MUCH MORE -- MUCH MORE STRONG WHEN I TALK WITH FAMILIES.

NOW, WE NEVER -- WE NEVER TELL THEM ILLUSIONS AND WE NEVER TELL THEM STORIES OF DREAMS.

WE ARE WELL EXPERIENCED IN SUCH A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US AND THE FAMILIES, AND WE'LL KEEP THEM IN A VERY, VERY HIGH DISTANCE FROM -- SHORT DISTANCE FROM THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING CARE.

AND AS OF TOMORROW MORNING, WE WILL DO THE SAME LIKE WE DID YESTERDAY.

>> WELL, THANK GOD YOU ARE THERE TO HELP THESE FAMILIES AS THEY GO THROUGH THIS LIVING HELL.

ORY, HOW, IF ANY, DOES THE CALCULUS CHANGE ONCE THE INCURSION BEGINS?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I REALLY DON'T KNOW.

I REALLY DON'T KNOW.

AND I THINK THAT THINGS ARE -- I DON'T THINK THAT THE FIRST RELEASE WILL BE SIMILAR OR LOOK LIKE THE SECOND ONE.

WE HAVE ALL EXPERIENCE AND WE CAN THINK ABOUT IT AND LOOK, LOOK ON THINGS THAT WILL BE DONE AS FOR TOMORROW.

BUT FOR MY POINT OF VIEW, AND I'M TALKING PERSONALLY, AFTER THE TWO LADIES ARE AT HOME, WE START EVERYTHING FROM BEGINNING, FROM DAY ONE.

>> AND BY THAT, DOES THAT MEAN MORE PRESSURE ON THE QATARIS TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON HAMAS?

>> FOR SURE.

OUR AIM IS ONLY ONE, IS TO BRING ALL THESE CIVILIANS.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE NOT ARMED WHEN THEY WERE KIDNAPPED.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT WHAT HAS BEEN DONE THERE BY THIS GROUP IS SOME CRIMINAL ACT AGAINST HUMANITY.

EVEN NOW.

AND IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE COMPARING THIS BEHAVIOR, JUST TO ISIS, SOME SAY IT'S WORSE THAN ISIS.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE A COUNTRY -- WE ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

WE HAVE GOVERNMENT, PARLIAMENT.

WE HAVE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE -- WITH THIS AND NOBODY IS LIKE SMALL GROUP OF THIS ORGANIZATION, WHO HAS NO RULES, NO TREATIES, NO -- NOTHING THAT IS IN ORDER OF A STATE LIKE ISRAEL.

>> IT'S BARBARIC AND PERPETRATED BY TERRORISTS.

I KNOW YOU DESCRIBED THIS AS UNPRECEDENTED AND UNPRECEDENTED FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS, BUT I AM WONDERING IF THERE IS ANYTHING THAT WE CAN TAKE FROM PAST HOSTAGE CASES IN TERMS OF THE SIGNIFICANCE AND THE IMPORTANCE OF KEEPING THIS FRONT AND CENTER.

OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF ATTENTION ON GAZA, A LOT OF ATTENTION ON WHEN THIS WAR AND INCURSION MAY BEGIN, BUT HOW IMPORTANT IS IT PROFESSIONALLY FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE TO CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT THIS STORY?

>> FROM MY EXPERIENCE, WHICH IS NOT EVEN -- YOU KNOW, ZERO PERCENT FROM THIS EVENT.

ZERO PERCENT.

YOU HAVE TO MOVE ON WITH THE WHOLE PRESSURE IN THE WORLD, WITH ANY KIND OF THINGS NOT NEGOTIATING, BUT DEALINGS TO PRESS, THESE PEOPLE, IN ANY WAY, TO FREE THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

WE ARE NOT EASING OUR WAY OF TREATMENT AND BEHAVIOR BECAUSE OF THIS RELEASE.

I'M SORRY.

>> WELL, ORY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EVERYTHING THAT YOU'RE DOING.

PLEASE TELL ALL THE FAMILIES THAT YOU ARE COMMUNICATE BEING WITH THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER THIS STORY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> PRESIDENT BIDEN IS ASKING CONGRESS TO CUT A $105 BILLION CHECK FOR NATIONAL SECURITY.

THAT INCLUDES SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL AND UKRAINE'S WAR EFFORTS.

BUT WITH THE HOUSE STUCK IN AN ENDLESS VOTING LOOP OVER WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT SPEAKER, IT'S UNCLEAR IF OR WHEN CONGRESS MAY ACT.

WHEN IT COMES TO DYSFUNCTIONAL POLITICS STANDING IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS, STEVE INSKEEP SAYS LESSONS CAN BE LEARNED FROM LOOKING BACK.

HE EXPLAINS HOW IN HIS NEW BOOK "DIFFER WE MUST: HOW LINCOLN SUCCEEDED IN A DIVIDED AMERICA."

AND HE DISCUSSED MORE OF THAT WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS.

STEVE INSKEEP, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> IT'S GREAT TO TALK WITH YOU.

>> BEFORE WE DIG INTO THE BOOK, I DID WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT KIND OF YOUR DUAL IDENTITY.

YOU ARE A HARD-NOSED JOURNALIST, HAVE BEEN A JOURNALIST FOR YEARS, BUT ALSO BEEN WRITING BOOKS FOR YEARS.

MOST OF WHICH FOCUS ON HISTORY.

WHAT DOES ONE DO FOR YOU OR THE OTHER DOES NOT OR WHY IS IT YOU ARE ABLE TO DO BOTH OR WANT DO BOTH.

>> I WAS GOING TO JOKE ABOUT THE NEED TO MAKE A LIVING.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPER TO IT THAN THAT.

I FEEL WHEN I'M WRITING HISTORY, I AM COVERING THE SAME STORY OFTEN I AM COVERING AS A JOURNALIST AND EACH FEEDS OFF THE OTHER AND IN A SENSE MAKES IT EASIER.

WHERE I AM AT RIGHT NOW IS THAT EVEN MORE THAN USUAL IT FEELS LIKE THE NEWS STORIES PLAY OFF THE HISTORY AND BUILD OFF THE HISTORY.

SO EACH OF THESE TWO SIDES OF MY CAREER CHANGES MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE OTHER.

WRITING HISTORY CHANGES WHICH NEWS STORIES I THINK THERE ARE IMPORTANT AND WHICH ARE NOT A BIG DEAL AT ALL.

>> THE OTHER THING THAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT YOUR PREVIOUS BOOKS HAVE BEEN ABOUT PEOPLE THAT -- PEOPLE OR SUBJECTS THAT PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW VERY WELL.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS IDEA ABOUT WRITING ABOUT HIM THROUGH THE LENS OF HIS ENCOUNTERS WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS IS A SUPER FAMOUS TOPIC.

HE IS SOMEONE THAT I ADMIRED AND BEEN INTERESTED SINCE I WAS A KID GROWING UP IN INDIANA, WHERE LINCOLN SPENT METRO OF HIS YOUTH.

LOTS OF PEOPLE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT LINCOLN.

I FEEL THAT IN THE COURSE OF THIS RESEARCH, I DISCOVERED SOMETHING ABOUT AMERICA OR A LOT OF LITTLE THINGS ABOUT AMERICA AND ABOUT LINCOLN AS A POLITICIAN, AS OPPOSED TO A KIND OF SECULAR SAINT THAT WERE NEW TO ME.

16 MEETINGS OF PEOPLE WHO DIFFERED WITH HIM OR DISAGREED WITH HIM I THINK EXPOSED A LOT OF CLASS, DIFFERENT RACES, DIFFERENT GENDERS, EVEN THOUGH IT'S A TIME WHEN WHITE MEN HAD VIRTUALLY ALL THE POWER AND ATTENTION.

I THINK IT EXPOSES AMERICA A LITTLE BIT.

AND I THINK SHOWING HIM IN COMBAT OR IN DEBATE OR IN ALLIANCE WITH VARIOUS KINDS OF PEOPLE ALSO REVEALS LINCOLN IN A NEW AND DIFFERENT WAY.

THE WAY THAT IF YOU WATCH AN ATHLETE ON THE FIELD, YOU CAN TRULY SEE THEIR ART BECAUSE SIGH THEM IN ACTION.

>> THIS IS SHOWING LINCOLN IN ACTION WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

>> THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IS "DIFFER WE MUST."

SO REALLY THE CORE IS PEOPLE WITH WHOM HE HAD DISAGREEMENTS.

SOME WERE ENORMOUS DISAGREEMENTS, ENORMOUS MORAL DISAGREEMENTS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IS HOW HE KIND OF KEPT THEM IN HIS LIFE OR STAYED CONNECTED TO THEM.

LET'S START WITH FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

LINCOLN RECEIVED FREDERICK DOUGLASS AT THE WHITE HOUSE, CORDIALLY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD MAKE POLITICAL HAY OUT OF THERE.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING ENTERTAINING THIS BLACK MAN AT THE WHITE HOUSE, HOW DARE YOU, THAT KIND OF THING.

TELL ME ABOUT IT.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT, PEOPLE COULD AND DID MAKE POLITICAL HAY OUT OF THAT.

ONE OF THE MANY REASONS THAT DOUGLASS WAS FAMOUS, OF COURSE HE ESCAPED FROM SLAVERY, HE WAS A WRITER, ABOLITIONIST, ANTI-SLAVERY ACTIVIST, BUT HE WAS ALSO SOMEONE WHO COULD BE SMEARED IN CONSERVATIVE NEWSPAPERS ALL THE TIME.

THEY SAID THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS FOLLOWING THE AGENDA OF THIS BLACK MAN, FRED TRICK DOUGLAS.

HE CONSIDERED LINCOLN'S REPUBLICAN PARTY TOO MODERATE AND CONSTANTLY CRITICIZED LINCOLN AS PRESIDENT FOR MOVING TOO SLOWLY AGAINST SLAVERY AND AT THE SAME TIME DOUGLASS WAS PRAGMATIC AS LINCOLN WAS AND UNDERSTOOD THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY STOOD THE BEST CHANCE OF DEALING A BLOW AGAINST SLAVERY, SO HE WAS SUPPORTIVE OF THE REPUBLICANS AND WORKED WITH WITH LINCOLN EVEN WHILE DISAGREE WITH LINCOLN.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS MEETING WAS ABOUT.

DOUGLASS, AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION IN 1863 VOLUNTEERED TO HELP RECRUIT BLACK NEN FOR THE UNION ARMY.

BUT THEN FELT THAT LINCOLN'S ADMINISTRATION MADE A LIAR OUT OF HIM BY FAILING TO PROVIDE THE EQUAL TREATMENT THAT HAD BEEN PROMISED, THAT DOUGLASS PROMISED.

SO HE EFFECTIVELY WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO PROTEST TO ABRAHAM LINCOLN WHO SHOWED SOME OF HIS LEADERSHIP STYLE FIRST BY TAKING A MEETING WITH THIS GUY WHO PUBLICLY CRITICIZED HIM FIERCELY, CALLED HIM RACIST AND OTHER THINGS.

SECONDS ADMITTING THAT HE HAD BEEN SLOW TO PROVIDE THE EQUALITY THAT HE KNEW WAS CALLED FOR.

AND THIRD, EXPLAINING WHY POLITICAL REALITY REQUIRED HIM TO DO THINGS IN A CERTAIN TIMING AND AT A CERTAIN TIME AND ALSO COMMITTING TO MAKING THINGS RIGHT.

DOUGLASS, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS UPSET THAT BLACK MEN WERE NOT RECEIVING EQUAL PAY TO WHITE SOLDIERS.

THAT WAS CORRECTED BY THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

SO THEY HAD A KIND OF ALLIANCE IN SPITE OF BROAD DIFFERENCES ABOUT HOW TO ATTACK LEGISSLAVER >> WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU?

>> IT SHOWS ME A POLITICAL LEADER WHO WAS PATIENT, WHO KEPT HIS EYE ON THE LONG TERM, WHO REACHED OUT TO PEOPLE WHO DISAGREED WITH HIM, WHO DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS NECESSARY THAT SOMEONE HAD TO AGREE ENTIRELY WITH HIM, WHO REACHED BEYOND WHAT WE WOULD CALL THE POLITICAL BASE TO MAKE ALLIANCES.

WE JUST TALKED ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS, ABOLITIONIST, ESCAPED FROM SLAVERY.

THE TITLE OF THE BOOK "DIFFER WE MUST" IS FROM A LETTER LINCOLN WROTE TO A MAN OF A SLAVE HOLDING FAMILY, WHO BY HIS ADULT LIFE AGREED IN THE ABSTRACT ACCORDING TO LINCOLN THAT SLAVERY WAS WRONG, BUT LINCOLN FELT HE WASN'T REALLY SERIOUS POLITICALLY ABOUT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

WASN'T SERIOUS ABOUT RECONTRIBUTING IT OR ENDING IT.

BUT THEN HE WROTE IN THE LETTER, IF FOR THIS YOU AND I MUST DIFFER, DIFFER WE MUST, AND HE SIGNED THE LETTER YOUR FRIEND FOREVER, WHICH STRIKES ME AS A HARD THING FOR MANY OF US TO CONCEIVE TODAY.

WE'RE TOLD THAT WE NEED TO ALMOST OSTRACIZE OR ISOLATE OURSELVES FROM PEOPLE WHO HOLD REPUGNANT VIEWS OR TERRIBLE VIEWS.

LINCOLN KEPT IN TOUCH WITH EVERYBODY.

EVEN IF HE DIDN'T ULTIMATELY AGREE WITH THEM.

AND WOULD GET SOME USE OR SOME VALUE OUT OF THEM.

HE ULTIMATELY GOT VALUE OUT OF JOSHUA SPEED WHO STAYED LOYAL TO THE UNION WHEN THE CIVIL WAR BROKE OUT.

>> INTERESTING.

JOSHUA SPEED THOUGH LIFELONG FRIEND.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAD REP THAT WENT BEYOND THIS ISSUE.

TALK ABOUT JOSEPH GILLESPIE.

>> THIS IS AN UNBELIEVABLE STORY.

I FEEL THAT I UNCOVERED A SECRET HISTORY OF LINCOLN'S POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING IN THE 1850s ON HIS WAY TO THE PRESIDENCY.

HE WAS HELPING BUILD IN ANTI-SLAVERY PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND HE REALIZED THERE WERE ONLY SO MANY ANTI-SLAVERY VOTES AMERICA.

WRITE VOTERS HAD DEEPLY MIXED VIEWS ABOUT SLAVERY.

HE INTO HEADED ALL THE VOTES HE COULD GET.

IN ILLINOIS THAT INCLUDED VOETS WHO HATED IMMIGRANTS.

WHO JOINED ANTI-IMMIGRANT SOCIETIES KNOWN AS NO NOTHING SOCIETIES, AND JOSEPH GILLESPIE WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

HE HAD A WAS A FRIEND OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

LINCOLN NEEDED VOTES IN THE U.S. SENATE CAMPAIGN IN 1858 AND HE LEANED ON JOSEPH IN AN EFFORT TO GET THEM REPEATEDLY WROTE TO HIM FOR INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO CAMPAIGN, EVEN HIMSELF APPEARED ON STAGE AT LEAST TWICE WITH JOSEPH GILLESPIE TO APPEAL FOR NO NOTHING VOTES.

AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, AS FAR AS THE RECORD GOES, LINCOLN NEVER ENDORSED NO NOTHING VIEWS.

HE NEVER WENT ACROSS HIS PRINCIPLES BY DOING THAT.

HE FOUND THEIR VIEWS REPUGNANT.

>> JUST SAYING -- YOU SAY IN THE BOOK -- YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK -- I THINK HE SAID THIS IN A LETTER THAT GILLESPIE WOULD USE THEIR TIME TOGETHER TO PUSH HIM ON THESE ANTI-IMMIGRANT VIEWS AND HE WROTE IN ONE OF HIS PERSONAL LETTERS JUST HOW TIRESOME HE FOUND IT.

IT KIND OF REMINDS US OF, LIKE, UNCLE BUD AT THANKSGIVING BEATING ON SOME ISSUE.

YOU ARE LIKE, COULD YOU STOP?

>> EXACTLY RIGHT.

BUT HE WAS LIKE ENGAGING WITH THIS GUY AND TRYING TO GET PEOPLE WITH REALLY BAD DWRDS TO CAST GOOD VOTES AGAINST SLAVERY, WHICH IS A HARD CONCEPT FOR US TODAY.

>> IS THIS KIND OF A RELATIVELY MODERN IDEA THAT UNLESS YOU'RE WITH ME ON EVERYTHING, YOU ARE WITH ME ON NOTHING?

>> THERE WERE PEOPLE THEN WHO THOUGHT THAT WAY, THAT KIND OF PURIST IDEA OR PURITAN IDEA OF POLITICS.

WITH WWE WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND HOW WRONG SLAVERY WAS.

ABOLITIONISTS FELT THAT POLITICAL SYSTEM WAS SO CORRUPTED BY SLAVERY, THEY WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

THEY WOULDN'T EVEN VOTE.

THE MOST RADICAL ABOLITIONISTS AND SOME PUBLICLY BURNED THE CONSTITUTION.

AND SO THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THAT LINCOLN WAS WAY TOO FRIENDLY WITH SLAVE OWNERS AND WAY TOO FRIENDLY WITH UNPLEASANT PEOPLE AND WONDERED WHY HE WAS DOING THIS.

>> SO, OBVIOUSLY, I LEARNED A LOT FROM THE BOOK AND THERE WERE FIGURES IN THERE WHO PEOPLE I HAD HEARD OF BUT DIDN'T KNOW THEIR HISTORY, PEOPLE I NEVER HEARD OF.

WAS THERE SOMEBODY YOU WROTE ABOUT THAT YOU JUST WERE REALLY SURPRISED BY?

>> ALMOST THE LAST CHARACTER TO BE ADD TODAY THIS COLLECTION.

MARY ELLEN WISE.

ONE OF THREE WOMEN IN THIS BOOK WHO IS A LITTLE MYSTERIOUS BECAUSE THEY ARE STORY IS HARD TO VERIFY.

HER STORY WAS SHE WAS A TEENAGER FROM INDIANA AT THE START OF THE WAR WHO CUT OFF HER HAIR, PUT ON MEN'S CLOTHES ENLISTED THE ARMY AND SERVED IN THE ARMY AS SOME NUMBER OF WOMEN APPARENTLY DID.

HER SERVICE IS EXTREMELY HARD TO PIN DOWN.

PARTS OF HER STORY MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL.

SHE WAS FOUND IN UNIFORM IN THE SOUTH IN WAR ZONES AND IN 1864 WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO SAY TO LINCOLN THAT SHE WAS OWED BACK PAY AND NEEDED HELP COLLECTING IT.

THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS THAT AMAZE ME ABOUT THIS STORY AND ONE IS THAT LINCOLN COMPLETELY WELCOMED THE IDEA.

HE WANTED ANYBODY TO SERVE WHO COULD SERVE.

HE REALIZED THAT THE UNION NEEDED TO WIN THE WAR OF NUMBERS, AND WHEN A WOMANS SHOWD UP AND SAID I SERVED MY COUNTRY HE DIDN'T SAY GET OUT OF HERE, HE WROTE A NOTE TO A FEDERAL PAY MASTER SAYING PAY THIS WOMAN WHO CLAIMS TO BE OWED MONEY AND IF THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT I WILL COVER THE DIFFERENCE MYSELF.

AND ALSO HE WAS OKAY WITH THE PUBLIC KNOWING -- HE WAS POLITICALLY VERY CLEVER AND HE WAS ESSENTIALLY FOR ANYONE WHO WOULD FIGHT FORT UNION.

HE EVEN ISSUED THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF TAKING BLACK LABORERS AWAY FROM THE SOUTH TO ENSLAVED THEM AND EP LISTS THEM WHEN THEY WERE WILLING TO ADD TO EUN YOUR FORCES.

HE TALKED ABOUT THAT BEFORE ISSUING THE PROCLAMATION.

IT'S WRITTEN IN THE PROCK CALCULATION AS A PURPOSE OF THE PROCLAMATION.

HE WANTED PEOPLE TO FIGHT FOR THE COUNTRY.

HE UNDERSTOOD IN AN ELECTION YOU NEED TO BUILD A MAJORITY BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND THE CIVIL WAR WAS EFFECTIVELY AN ELECTION BY OTHER MEANS AND IT WAS WON BECAUSE THE UNION HAD THE MAJORITY.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS RAISES THE QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN ASKED, YOU KNOW, OF OTHER LEADERS SINCE, WHICH IS WAS HE SINCERELY AGAINST SLAVERY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THE POINTS YOUR BOOK MAKES CLEAR IS THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE FARTHER ALONG IN THEIR THINKING ABOUT THE EQUALITY OF HUMAN BEINGS THAN LINCOLN WAS.

BUT THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF DOES IT MATTER WHAT A PERSON TRULY BELIEVES, LIKE THEY BELIEVE IT IN THEIR CORE.

DID YOU -- HOW DID YOU COME OUT ON THAT?

DO YOU HAVE A OPN OPINION ABOUT THAT.

>> >> THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT.

THAT'S VERY PERCEPTIVE.

WE THINK OF RACE AS A PERSONAL NOW, A MATTER OF THE SOUL.

CAN WE SHOW OTHER PEOPLE WE ARE PURE.

DENOUNCE ANYBODY ELSE WHO IS IMPURE.

I DON'T MEAN TO SAY THAT'S UNIMPORTANT.

BUT WITH LINCOLN THE QUESTION IS WHAT DIFFERENCE DID HE MAKE AS A POLITICAL LEADER AND OF COURSE IT WAS A GIGANTIC DIFFERENCE.

AS TO THE QUESTION OF WHETHER -- WHAT HE BELIEVED IN HIS SOUL, IT'S CLEAR TO ME FROM HIS WRITINGS, ALTHOUGH HE IS SOMETHING OF A MYSTERIOUS CHARACTER, HE ALWAYS BELIEVED SLAVERY WAS WRONG.

HE LEAFED THAT WHEN IT WAS TO HIS ADVANTAGE AND DISADVANTAGE, HE BELIEVED IT CONSISTENT LIE THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE.

THERE ARE STATEMENTS HE MADE THAT ARE CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN ALLOWING FOR POLITICAL OR SOCIAL EQUALITY OF BLACK PEOPLE AND HE EVEN TALKED ABOUT COLONIZATION, SENDED FREE PEOPLE OVERSEAS SOMEWHERE ELSEWHERE THEY COULD BE FREE, AND YET I'M TEMPTED TO SEE SOME OF THOSE STATEMENTS AS POLITICAL DODGES TO APPEAL TO WHITE VOTERS BECAUSE IN MANY OF THE SAME SPEECHES THERE IS A LOGIC THAT LEADS TO A EQUALITY.

THERE IS A SPEECH IN 1854 WHERE HE SAYS CONFIDENT GOVERNMENT IS ABSO AND ETERNALLY RIGHT AND IT'S A TOTALLY -- AND IT'S A TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF SELF-GOVERNMENT IF A BLACK MAN CANNOT GOVERN HIMSELF.

AND THERE IS THAT KIND OF LOGIC AND THAT TALK OF EQUALITY AGAIN AND AGAIN.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LINCOLN BELIEVED AS HE SAID SO MANY TIMES, HE PICKED UP FROM ABOLITIONISTST IN THE CREED OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE ABOUT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, REFERRED TO THAT AS MY ANCIENT FAITH AND HIS PRACTICAL BELIEF WAS LET'S GET ALL OF THE EQUALITY WE CAN GET AWAY WITH NOW AND LEAVE THE REST FOR ANOTHER TIME WHEN WE CAN TRY FOR SOME MORE.

>> LET'S ZOOM OUT ON THAT QUESTION THOUGH AND TALK ABOUT KIND OF THE PRESENT MOMENT.

YOU KNOW, YOUR BOOK IN A WAY WITHOUT REALLY BEING SUPER EXPLICIT ABOUT IT IS KIND OF A BRIEF IN BEHALF OF POLITICAL SKILL.

IN THE SERVICE OF KIND OF MORAL RIGHT.

AND I THINK WHAT I THINK -- I THINK THE SUBTEXT IS THAT POLITICAL SKILL MATTERS.

SO THE QUESTION I THINK I HAVE FOR YOU IS, IS THERE -- ARE THERE OTHER FIGURES CONTEMPORARY FIGURES THAT REMIND YOU ARE LINCOLN, WHO DO PUT POLITICAL SKILL IN THE SERVICE OF MORAL RIGHT, AND ARE SOMETIMES CRITICIZED FOR IT?

>> WE CAN NAME SEVERAL OF THEM.

I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LIKE LINCOLN, BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO TAKE THAT KIND OF APPROACH AND LEAN ON POLITICAL SKILL AND BUILDING COALITIONS AND DEALING WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS MADE THAT PART OF HIS APPEAL, HE IS GOING TO BE BIPARTISAN, HE IS GOING TO WORK WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, IN HIS FIRST PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN HE WAS CRITICIZED FOR SAYING AS A SENATOR IN THE 1970s HE WORKED WITH OLD TIME SEGREGATIONISTS NOT TO DO SEGREGATION BUT TO GET POST POSITIVE THINGS DONE.

WHY WOULD YOU TALK TO THESE PEOPLE.

WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG, I UNDERSTAND WHY.

THAT OLD SEGREGATION SENATOR HAD POWER AND YOU COULD HAVE HIM VOTING FOR YOU OR AGAINST YOU AND HE WOULD TRY TO BRING THEM ONBOARD.

BIDEN MADE A SHOW OF ATTEMPTING BIPARTISAN WHEN POSSIBLE.

OTHER PEOPLE WE COULD TALK ABOUT.

THE PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA WAS MORE CENTRIST THAN PERHAPS HE SEEMED ALTHOUGH HE WAS PRESENTED AS A KIND OF RADICAL FIGURE.

THERE HAVE BEEN REPUBLICANS THROUGH HISTORY WHO HAVE BUILT ON LINCOLN'S LEGACY.

I THINK ABOUT THE PASSAGE OF THE 1964 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT WHICH HAPPENED BECAUSE EVERETT DIRKSEN, A REPUBLICAN FROM ILLINOIS, GATHERED UP CONSERVATIVE VOTES GET IT THROUGH THE SENATE PARTLY BY RAISING OBJECTIONS AND CONCERNS AND AMENDMENTS TO THIS BILL HE ALWAYS SUPPORTED ALL ALONG BUT HE WAS TRYING TO BRING MORE CONSERVATIVE VOICES ALONG.

WE COULD GO THROUGH AND FIND A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL PLAYING THE GAME MORE OR LESS SUCCESSFULLY, AND WHO UNDERSTAND THAT DEMOCRACY AND REPUBLIC WITH SEPARATION OF POWERS MEANS YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH THE PERSON ON THE OTHER SIDE EVEN WHEN THEY ARE TOTALLY WRONG.

>> YOU KNOW, HISTORIANS ARE SOMETIMES ACCUSED OF BEING K NOSTALGIC.

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

>> I HOPE NOT.

I AM INTERESTED IN THE PAST, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE I WISH I LIVED IN THE PAST.

AND I THINK I UNDERSTAND HOW BAD IT WAS, HOW TERRIBLE IT WAS.

IN FACT, THAT IS PART OF THIS STORY THAT I HAVE TO TELL OR I FEEL I HAVE TO TELL.

LINCOLN DID NOT PLAY HIS ROLE IN ENDING SLAVERY JUST BECAUSE HE THOUGHT SLAVERY WAS WRONG.

IT WAS ORDINARY TO ADMIT THAT SLAVERY WAS WRONG.

THERE WERE LITERAL SLAVE OWNERS WHO SAID THIS IS A TERRIBLE PRACTICE, IT'S TOO BAD I HAVE TO KEEP DOING IT.

THE THING INNOVATIVE ABOUT LINCOLN IS GETTING A OWN WHELMINGLY WHITE NATIONAL ELECTORATE THAT HAD DEEPLY MIXED FEELINGS AND FEARS ABOUT SLAVE SLAIFRY AND BLACK PEOPLE, GETTING THAT HIGHLY IMPERFECT ELECTORATE TO VOTE FOR SOMETHING BETTER AFTER TIME.

THAT TOOK COALITION BUILDING AND POLITICAL SKILL.

THAT'S WHAT MADE HIM DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT.

NOT SOLELY HIS MORAL BELIEF, WHICH WAS CORRECT, BUT PRACTICAL SKILL.

>> STEVE INSKEEP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

IT'S A JOY TO TALK YOU TO.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE WANT TAKE A MOMENT TO RECOGNIZE THE SACRIFICES BEING MADE BY MANY JOURNALIST AS THEY BRING THE STORIES OF THOSE MOST AFFECTED BY THIS CONFLICT TO THE WORLD.

A WARNING.

THE FIRST IMAGE IS GRAPHIC.

WE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO SEE.

AT LEAST 21 JOURNALISTS AMONG THE THOUSANDS KILLED SINCE THE WAR BEGAN TWO WEEK AGO.

ACCORDING TO THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS.

WHICH ALSO SAID THIS.

MILLIONS ACROSS THE WORLD ARE COUNTING ON REPORTERS IN THE REGION TO PROVIDE ACCURATE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CONFLICT.

JOURNALISTS LIKE ALL CIVILIANS MUST BE RESPECTED AND PROTECTED.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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