♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IN GAZA, ISRAEL'S RELENTLESS BOMBING CONTINUES, AS THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS GROWS.

I ASK LEADING JOURNALIST ILANA DAYAN, ARE ISRAELIS UNITED BEHIND THEIR GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE?

>>> THEN, WE HEAR FROM INSIDE GAZA ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN DISASTER THERE.

AND FROM THE ARCHIVE, WE TAKE A LOOK BACK TO LOOK FORWARD AT THE IMPACT OF WAR ON GAZA'S CHILDREN.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, I ASK THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE ADVISER WHETHER THEIR WAR IS FALLING OFF THE MAP.

>>> AND, MICHEL MARTIN LOOKS AT INTERNET PROPAGANDA IN TIMES OF CRISIS WITH AUTHOR BEN SHEEHAN.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL IS MOUNTING LIMITED GROUND RAIDS NOW INTO GAZA TO PREPARE FOR WHAT IT CALLS THE COMING STAGES OF THE WAR.

AND TO SEARCH FOR HOSTAGES.

THEY NOW SAY MORE THAN 220 ARE HELD IN GAZA.

IT IS ALSO RAMPING UP ITS AERIAL ASSAULT, LAUNCHING MORE THAN 300 ATTACKS ON WHAT DEFENSE FORCES CLAIM ARE MILITARY TARGETS BELONGING TO HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD.

MEANWHILE, THE CIVILIAN TOLL GROWS DRAMATICALLY.

MORE THAN 400 PALESTINIANS, NEARLY HALF OF THEM CHILDREN, WERE KILLED IN OVERNIGHT STRIKES, ACCORDING TO THE GAZA HEALTH MINISTRY.

THERE ARE REPORTS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS PRESSING ISRAEL TO DELAY ITS GROUND INCURSION TO BUY TIME FOR MORE NEGOTIATIONS FOR THE RELEASE OF MORE HOSTAGES BY HAMAS.

AND TO ALLOW MORE AID TO ENTER GAZA.

SPEAKING ON THE SAUDI NEWS CHANNEL, THE SENIOR HAMAS FIGURE SAID THE GROUP CAN USE ITS HOSTAGES, MOSTLY ITS ISRAELI SOLDIERS, HE SAYS, TO NEGOTIATE THE RELEASE OF ALL PALESTINIAN PRISONERS IN ISRAEL.

ILANA DAYAN IS ONE OF ISRAEL'S BEST-KNOWN JOURNALISTS AND SEES PUBLIC OPINION THERE SHIFTING TOWARDS FREEING THE HOSTAGES AS A PRIORITY.

AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM JERUSALEM.

ILANA DAYAN, WELCOME.

YOU, OF ALL PEOPLE, HAVE YOUR FINGER ON THE PULSE, AND I KNOW THAT YOU'VE BEEN TRAVELING, YOU'VE BEEN TO THE GAZA BORDER COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN SO DESPERATELY AFFECTED.

JUST -- LET ME START BY ASKING YOU WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AND WHO YOU'VE BEEN TALKING TO MOST RECENTLY.

>> I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, CHRISTIANE, THAT FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF DAYS, I WAS LOOKING FOR WORDS.

AND THEN I DROVE THERE, TO THE GAZA BORDER, TO ONE OF THE COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS MOST AFFECTED BY THESE HORRIFIC ATTACKS OF SATURDAY, OCTOBER 7th, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU STAND IN FRONT OF DEATH, YOU STAND IN FRONT OF A PARADISE THAT WAS BECOMING JUST HELL.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT I WAS IN KIBBUTZ BE'ERI, A FAMILY WAS EXECUTED AT GUNPOINT, THE PARENTS AND TWO YOUNG CHILDREN.

ANOTHER COLLEAGUE, A NEWS PHOTOGRAPHER, HE WAS MURDERED, HIS WIFE WAS MURDERED, HIS TWO KIDS HID IN THE CLOSET AND THE 3-YEAR-OLD IS KIDNAPPED IN GAZA.

NOW, BEAR IN MIND THAT ISRAEL IS A COUNTRY IN WHICH THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF SEPARATION.

EVERYBODY KNOWS EVERYBODY.

SO, THE GOVERNMENT IS SPEAKING OF, YOU KNOW, AN OFFENSIVE, A GROUND ATTACK, AND THE NEXT PHASE OF THE WAR, AND WE'LL BEAT HAMAS AND DESTROY HAMAS AND ERASE THEM FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH, BUT WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT THE SHIFT OF PUBLIC OPINION, THE FAMILIES ARE DESPERATE, AND ISRAEL IS A COUNTRY IN WHICH YOU CANNOT LEAVE THESE FAMILIES WITHOUT AN ANSWER THERE'S A REPORT IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES THAT MAYBE THE FOREIGN NATIONALS, THOSE ISRAELIS WITH ANOTHER NATIONALITY, WITH FOREIGN NATIONALITY, WILL BE RELEASED WITHIN THE NEXT FEW HOURS, AND AS YOU SAID, THE AMERICANS ARE VERY MUCH INVOLVED NOW, AND THERE MIGHT BE -- THERE MIGHT BE THE CASE THAT THE AMERICANS ARE STALLING, OR MAKING ISRAEL DELAY THE NEXT PHASE OF THE WAR SO THAT NEGOTIATIONS CAN PERHAPS GET INTO A DEAL AT LEAST CONCERNING THE CIVILIANS HELD BY HAMAS.

>> ILANA, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE THAT IS IMPORTANT NEWS, IF IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE.

WHERE ARE YOU HEARING THAT FROM?

DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT'S A CREDIBLE REPORT?

>> IT'S A REPORT THAT THIS REFERRED TO IN ISRAEL AS A SENIOR OFFICIAL WHO WAS QUOTED BY FOREIGN MEDIA.

IT'S AN UNCONFIRMED REPORT, BUT IT COMES TOGETHER WITH MORE REPORTS THAT ARE SPEAKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HAMAS WANTS A DEAL, HAMAS WANTS SOME KIND OF DEAL, SOMEHOW TO MITIGATE THE TERRIBLE IMAGE WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, THE RESULT OF THIS HORRIFIC ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th.

THEY WANT A DEAL, THEY MIGHT WANT IT LESS AFTER THE ATTACK IS LAUNCHED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, ISRAEL HAS TO DO SOMETHING THAT IT DIDN'T DO BEFORE, SO THE GOVERNMENT IS SPEAKING WITH HIGH RHETORIC, THE KIND OF RHETORIC THAT YOU AND I KNOW THAT LEADERS, WHEN THEIR EGO SUFFERS A BLOW, THEY SPEAK ABOUT SMASHING, DESTROYING, WINNING, GETTING A VICTORY LIKE WE NEVER HAD, AND THEY SPOKE ABOUT WINNING FIRST, HOSTAGES LATER.

I THINK IT'S CHANGING NOW.

>> SO, TELL ME THAT, BECAUSE THAT IS SUPER IMPORTANT, BECAUSE AS YOU'VE JUST BEEN SAYING AND WE'VE BEEN SAYING, THERE ARE, OF COURSE, REPORTS, AND EVEN THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY SPOKESMAN SAID TODAY, YOU KNOW, WE OBVIOUSLY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE TIME TO ALLOW NEGOTIATIONS.

HE DID NOT SAY WE'RE URGING ISRAEL TO DELAY, BUT HE LAID THAT OUT IN SO MANY WORDS.

SO, THE QUESTION TO YOU IS, I GUESS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IS THE GOVERNMENT HEARING, I GUESS, THE PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE COMING OUT, THE FAMILIES OF THE HOSTAGES WHO ARE SAYING, NO, HOSTAGES FIRST, OUR FAMILIES FIRST.

ARE THEY LISTENING?

>> THEY'RE LISTENING.

THEY HAVE TO LISTEN.

BECAUSE OF THE ETHOS OF ISRAELI SOCIETY.

BECAUSE WE RELEASED 1,000 TERRORISTS FOR A SINGLE SOLDIER, BECAUSE ISRAEL IS A COUNTRY IN WHICH THE SOCIAL ETHOS IS BASED ON SOLIDARITY, ON NATIONAL UNITY.

YOU CAN SEE THESE DAYS, CHRISTIANE, YOU CAN SEE THESE DAYS THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY GOES NOW TO VOLUNTEER SOMEHOW.

THE RESERVISTS ARE SHOWING UP IN, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS, SO, THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT IGNORE THIS KIND OF SHIFT IN PUBLIC OPINION.

WE INTERVIEWED THE PARENTS, WE INTERVIEWED THE RELATIVES.

THERE ARE FAMILIES WITH TWO GRANDPARENTS.

THE KIDS, THE GRANDKIDS, IN GAZA, YOU HAVE 30 YOUNG KIDS IN GAZA KIDNAPPED.

YOU HAVE A 3-YEAR-OLD WHO IS THERE ALONE.

THERE'S A PHOTO THAT I CANNOT FORGET OF A MOTHER, I JUST SAW THE PIECE BY ANDERSON COOPER, HOLDING HER TWO YOUNG BABIES, ONE IS 3 YEARS OLD AND ONE IS 10 MONTHS OLD.

ALL OF THEM IN GAZA.

I CANNOT EVEN THINK, IMAGINE, FATHOM WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS LISTENING TO THAT, TOO.

>> SO, YOU -- YOU HEARD PROBABLY WHAT WE JUST REPORTED IS, IT'S AN INTERVIEW OVER THE WEEKEND WITH AN ARAB JOURNALIST, YOU KNOW, REALLY PUT HIM THROUGH HIS PACES, SAID, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THESE HOSTAGES?

HE SAID, WE'RE TREATING THEM NICELY, ET CETERA, BUT WE WANT TO SWAP OUR HOSTAGES THAT WE'RE HOLDING, AND HE TALKED ABOUT ISRAELI SOLDIERS, FOR ALL THE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS IN ISRAEL.

IS ISRAEL THERE?

IS -- WOULD ISRAEL EVER DO THAT?

GIVEN WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT GILAD SHALIT.

>> ISRAEL IS NOT THERE YET, AND NO ISRAELI LEADER WOULD TELL YOU THEY'RE THERE YET, BUT WHEN YOU HEAR HIM, CHRISTIANE, I BEG YOU TO HEAR WHAT PRISONERS HELD BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY AND BY THE ISRAELI SECURITY SERVICES, CAPTURED DURING THESE LAST FEW DAYS, TERRORISTS WHO ARE PROUD OF THIS TERRIBLE ATTACK, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THEY'RE SAYING THAT THEY GOT SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS TO KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

THEY GOT SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS TO BEHEAD EVERYBODY THAT THEY CAN DO IT TO THEM.

AND I'M SAYING THAT, BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE ASKING WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS STAYING, IS STANDING THESE DAYS, I CAN TELL YOU WHERE I'M STANDING, OKAY?

I THOUGHT THAT I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT OUR ENEMIES.

NONE OF US, CHRISTIANE, NONE OF US EVEN IMAGINED, THIS IS THE KIND OF ENEMY THAT WE ARE CONFRONTING.

THIS IS PART OF TRYING TO RECCKON WHAT HAPPENED TO US.

THE SENSE THAT WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT OUR ENEMY IS BROKEN.

THE SENSE OF SECURITY, NATIONAL SECURITY AND PERSONAL SECURITY WAS BROKEN.

THE SENSE THAT OUR MILITARY KNOWS EVERYTHING, THEY CANNOT BE BLINDED, BUT FIRST AND FORE MOST WHAT WAS BROKEN WAS THAT HAMAS WANTS THE POPULATION.

SEE WHAT THEY DID IN GAZA THE OTHER DAY, TWO WEEKS AGO AND TWO DAYS AGO, TWO WEEKS AND TWO DAYS AGO.

SEE THE FAMILIES THAT WERE DESTROYED.

THESE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE ERASED.

THESE PEOPLE THAT WERE KIDNAPPED.

THESE WOMEN THAT WERE RAPED.

SEE THAT, AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I ASK MYSELF, HOW COME WE, AS A COUNTRY, ALLOW THIS MONSTER TO RISE AND EXIST, BESIDES US, METERS FROM THE KIBBUTZ ON THE BORDER.

HOW COME WE ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN?

THIS WAS WHAT WAS BROKEN ON OCTOBER 7th.

>> EXACTLY RIGHT.

>> FIRST AND FOREMOST.

>> AND YOU HEARD HAMAS SAYING THAT WAS THEIR INTENTION, AS WELL, TO BREAK THE IDEA THAT ISRAEL HAD THIS ALL POWERFUL, ALL KNOWING MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE.

SO, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, QUICKLY, BECAUSE -- HAS THE CONTRACT, THE SOCIAL CONTRACT BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL BEEN CRACKED OR BROKEN?

WE'VE HAD TWO VERY PROMINENT ISRAELIS, DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE CHIEF, SAY THE BUCK STOPPED WITH ME, AND I FAILED AND IT'S ON ME, BUT NETANYAHU HASN'T EVEN TAKEN JOURNALIST QUESTIONS, AS FAR AS I CAN GATHER.

WHAT IS THE FEELING ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT?

>> THIS IS EXACTLY THE FEELING ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT.

THERE'S A PRIME MINISTER WHO DIDN'T EVEN SAY HE FEELS OR IS RESPONSIBLE, AND THERE'S THE BRASS FROM THE CHIEF OF STAFF DOWN THAT SAID, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE, WE FAILED YOU.

WE FAILED OUR MISSION, BUT WE ARE HERE TO FIGHT NOW, AND I GOT TO TELL YOU, IT SITS ON A PROTEST, ON THE JUDICIAL OVERHAUL.

POLITICS IS BROKEN IN MY COUNTRY.

BUT THE ISRAELIS ARE NOT BROKEN.

YOU CAN SEE A KINDER, GENTLER NATION INSPIRED, VOLUNTEERING, AND UNITED LIKE I DON'T REMEMBER EVER SEEING, AND ALSO, KNOWING THAT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE HEADING TO A VERY LONG WAR IN WHICH NEITHER THE AMERICANS NOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL BE EVER PATIENT, AND WE ARE HEADED TOWARDS INTERNATIONAL CRITICISM.

I KNOW YOU ARE ABOUT TO REPORT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, UNINVOLVED INNOCENT PEOPLE, KIDS, CHILDREN, AND OTHERS KILLED IN GAZA, AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE I KNOW IT'S PART OF THE WHOLE PICTURE.

WHAT IS ISRAEL DOING IN GAZA?

CAN WE DO SOMETHING THAT WE NEVER DID, CHANGE REALITY IN GAZA?

CHANGE REALITY IN THE SENSE THAT HAMAS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO THREATEN OUR CITIZENS, OUR LIVES, OUR FAMILIES, OUR COMMUNITIES ANYMORE, CAN WE DO IT IN A PRICE WHICH WILL BE BEARABLE IN TERMS OF OUR VALUES AND OUR ETHOS?

AND I GOT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

JUST ONE MINUTE, CHRISTIANE, JUST THE LAST SENTENCE, BECAUSE PEOPLE MIX BETWEEN HAMAS AND OCCUPATION AND COLONIZATION.

AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I INTERVIEWED THE OTHER DAY, HER HUSBAND WAS THE HEAD OF THE REGIONAL COUNTY IN THE SOUTH.

HE WAS KILLED FIGHTING THE TERRORISTS.

HER SON WAS IN ANOTHER APARTMENT IN THE KIBBUTZ, HE WAS TEXTING HER THAT HE'S FRIGHTENED TO DEATH, THAT HE WANTS HOME, DAD IS DEAD, THEY ARE SHOOTING HIM.

HE BLED TO DEATH, CHRISTIANE.

HER HUSBAND, WHO ALSO DIED, WAS TRYING TO BUILD AN INTERNATIONAL INDUSTRY PARK FOR GAZAN ENGINEERS TO WORK ALONGSIDE ISRAELIS ANDOTHERS.

THE GRANDMOTHER WHO DIED WITH HER AUTISTIC GRANDCHILD, SHE WAS NO COLONIZER.

THE MAN WHO SAVED HIS BELOVED WIFE AND GRANDDAUGHTERS, HE WAS NO COLON UZER.

WE HAVE TO MAKE THE DISTINCTION.

MY 27-YEAR-OLD SON TALKED TO ME ABOUT IT TONIGHT, LAST NIGHT, AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I'M LOOKING AT THIS PICTURE OF THE GRANDMA AND THE AUTISTIC GRANDDAUGHTER, IF SOMEBODY THOUGHT THAT'S HOW YOU CRY FREEDOM, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU CRY FREEDOM.

SO, THAT'S WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.

I KNOW THAT WE'RE BOTH REPORTERS, I'M NOT A SPOKESPERSON, BUT THIS IS THE REALITY THAT WE HAVE TO FACE.

>> IT IS THE REALITY.

IT'S THE REALITY THAT YOU ARE FACED WITH AND WHAT YOUR COUNTRY IS FACED WITH AND THIS UTTER, UTTER SHOCK TO THE SYSTEM AND THE GRIEF.

I JUST WONDERED WHETHER, BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PARAMETERS AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.

I WONDERED WHETHER AND HOW MUCH ISRAELI VIEWERS ARE SEEING OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, AND HOW LONG YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE HUMANE CAN TOLERATE THE HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN WHO ARE BEING KILLED, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THIS HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU HAVE THESE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE SITUATIONS.

BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK TO A DOCTOR IN GAZA RIGHT NOW, AFTER YOU, SO, I JUST WONDERED WHAT, AS A JOURNALIST, AS AN ISRAELI, WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I HAVE NO GOOD ANSWER, CHRISTIANE.

I HAVE NO GOOD ANSWER.

I DON'T REJOICE, I CANNOT CELEBRATE, I CANNOT FATHOM THE SUFFERING OF A MOTHER IN GAZA WHO LOST HER BABY, BUT THE ONE THING THAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY IS THAT THE ONE THING THAT YOU REALIZED OCTOBER 7th, IS THAT NOT ALL PALESTINIANS ARE HAMAS, BUT THERE WOULDN'T BE HAMAS UNLESS IT WERE HARBORED AND SHELTERED AND SAVED AND VOTED AND SUPPORTED BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS.

>> OKAY.

>> THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I HAVE A SOLUTION.

HOW DO YOU SEPARATE THE POPULATION FROM HAMAS ACTIVISTS?

I KNOW JUST ONE THING, THE REALITY BEFORE OCTOBER 7th CANNOT BE THE REALITY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, AND THE OTHER THING, AS PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, I WANT ISRAEL TO FIGHT, NOT ONLY AS A COUNTRY FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE AND ITS PEOPLE, BUT FOR A DEMOCRACY, WITH HUMAN VALUES AND A HUMAN ETHOS, WHICH IS PART OF US AS ISRAELIS.

>> ILANA DAYAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

IT'S ALWAYS IMPORTANT WHEN I GET TO TALK TO YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW, WE ARE GOING TO GAZA, WHERE MORE THAN 2,000 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR, ACCORDING TO THEIR HEALTH MONEY INDUSTRY, AND DESPITE THE ARRIVAL OF TWO AID CONVOYS FROM EGYPT, WITH MORE ARRIVING TODAY.

RELIEF AGENCIES WARN THE NEEDS OF 2 MILLION PEOPLE ACROSS THE ENCLAVE ARE VAST AND BY NO MEANS MET.

LET'S GET THE SITUATION FROM DR. GHASSAN ABU-SITTAH, A BRITISH PALESTINIAN PLASTIC SURGEON WHO WENT BACK TO GAZA TO ASSIST AT HOSPITALS THERE IN GAZA CITY.

HE'S JOINING US NOW.

IT WAS TEN DAYS AGO THAT WE SPOKE TO YOU ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT YOU WERE FACED WITH AS A DOCTOR.

IT'S ALMOST AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CRISIS.

WE'VE HAD TEN DAYS NOW, THE ISRAELI MILITARY CAMPAIGN THERE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE HOSPITAL THAT YOU'RE AT NOW?

>> SO, WE ARE NOW IN THE DEATH THROES OF THE HOSPITALS IN GAZA.

40,000 WOUNDED.

IT'S COMPLETELY OVERWHELMED THE HEALTH SYSTEM.

WE HAVE OVER 150 PATIENTS ON VENTILATORS WITH CRITICAL INJURIES.

THE NUMBER OF WOUNDED FROM THE BAPTIST HOSPITAL AND THE NUMBER OF INPATIENTS FROM THE HOSPITAL MASSACRE HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO US.

>> SO, TELL ME, DO YOU HAVE WATER?

DO YOU HAVE MORPHINE?

DO YOU HAVE WHAT YOU NEED TO HELP PEOPLE?

>> WE HAVE RUN OUT OF BURN DRESSINGS.

ELECTRICITY IS STARTING TO CUT OUT.

THE PRESSURE, WATER PRESSURE IN THE HOSPITAL, IS INSUFFICIENT NOW TO RUN THE STERILIZATION MACHINE THAT WE NEED FOR SURGICAL INSTRUMENTS.

EVERYTHING IS RUNNING SHORT.

WE'VE RUN OUT OF THE PINS AND RODS THAT ARE REQUIRED FOR ORTHOPEDIC SURGERY.

AND SO, EVERYTHING IS -- HAS REALLY RUN OUT.

AND WE'VE RUN OUT OF SPACE.

A HOSPITAL THAT HAD A BED CAPACITY BETWEEN 550 AND 700 BEDS NOW HAS 1,700 PATIENTS, IN MATTRESSES IN THE CORRIDORS, ON THE FLOORS OF THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, AND THE SITUATION IS DIRE, AND WE'RE JUST AT THE VERY END OF THE SYSTEM, AS IT SLOWLY STARTS TO CRUMBLE.

>> DOCTOR, WE ARE LOOKING AT AERIAL PHOTOS, SOME I THINK WERE SATELLITE PHOTOS, WE'VE GOT DRONE PICTURES AND OTHER IMAGES OF GAZA CITY AND OTHER PARTS OF GAZA, AND IT DOES LOOK DEVASTATED.

AND I'M WONDERING, JUST HOW DO PEOPLE GET TO YOU?

HOW DO AMBULANCES STILL OPERATE, HOW DO THEY COME THROUGH THE STREETS?

YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AMONGST THE CHILDREN?

>> SO, JUST TO GIVE YOU A KIND OF DAILY RUN, YESTERDAY, I HAD A 16-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO HAD BURNS TO HIS FACE, HIS ARMS AND HIS LEGS, TELL ME BEFORE WE PUT HIM TO SLEEP HOW HE HAD DINNER WITH HIS PARENTS AND HIS DAD WAS SITTING NEXT TO HIM WAS KILLED AND HIS MOM SUFFOCATED IN THE FIRE THAT LED TO THE BURNS THAT HE HAD.

AND BEFORE HIM WAS A 1-YEAR-OLD BOY WITH HALF OF HIS FOREHEAD MISSING, AND A FRACTURE.

AND HIS PARENTS, ALTHOUGH, WEREN'T PHYSICALLY INJURED, ARE BEYOND DISTRAUGHT LIKE ANY PARENT WOULD BE AT THE INJURIES THEY HAD.

AND OTHER CHILDREN, WE HAVE NOW, A TERM IN THE HOSPITAL CALLED WOUNDED CHILD WITH NO SURVIVING FAMILY.

TO DESIGNATE OVER 50 KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN PULLED OUT OF THE RUBBLE ON THEIR OWN, AND HAVE SUSTAINED INJURIES AND ARE BEING TREATED IN THE HOSPITAL.

ALL OF THESE HORRENDOUS INJURIES.

14,000 INJURIES.

2,000 CHILDREN KILLED IN UNDER 16 DAYS.

AND FOR A SYSTEM THAT HAD A TOTAL BED CAPACITY OF 2,500 BEDS, BEFORE THE WAR STARTED, WE ARE JUST WAITING FOR THE ELECTRICITY TO RUN OUT, THE FUEL, AND THEN THAT WILL BE THE DEATH THROE OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM.

AND WITHOUT -- WITHOUT A -- WITHOUT ELECTRICITY, YOU KNOW, THIS HOSPITAL WILL JUST BE A MASS GRAVE.

THERE'S NOTHING TO DO FOR THESE WOUNDED.

BANDAGE THEM AND WHAT?

SO, THAT'S THE CRISIS THAT WE HAVE, THE -- THE SYSTEM IS DISSINT GREATING, AND WITHOUT A CEASE-FIRE AND A HUMANITARIAN CORRIDOR, NOT TOKEN 14, 15, 20 TRUCKS FOR TWO AND A QUARTER MILLION PEOPLE, BUT A REAL HUMANITARIAN CORRIDOR THAT ALLOWS THE EVACUATION OF THESE WOUNDED AND ALLOWS HUMANITARIAN AID TO COME IN AND MEDICAL TEAMS TO COME IN, WITHOUT THAT, THERE'S GOING TO BE AN EVEN LARGER CATASTROPHE THAN ONE THAT ALREADY EXISTS HERE.

>> AND DOCTOR, YOU HAVE PICKED UP FROM YOUR VERY SUCCESSFUL PRACTICE HERE IN LONDON AND GONE BACK THERE TO HELP.

WHAT MADE YOU DO THAT?

I KNOW YOU'VE DONE IT BEFORE AND I KNOW YOU'VE DONE EMERGENCY CRISIS MEDICAL HELP IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

BUT THIS -- THIS IS -- THIS IS REALLY INTENSE, AND MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOLLOWING THE WARNING TO EVACUATE TO THE SOUTH ARE ALSO FINDING THEMSELVES UNDER AIR STRIKES, AS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS.

WHAT MAKES YOU -- WHAT MADE YOU GET UP FROM YOUR HOME IN LONDON TO GO THERE?

>> I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THE MEDICAL SYSTEM IN GAZA ON AND OFF SINCE THE EARLY 2000s, AND I'VE BEEN THROUGH ALL OF THE WARS WAGED ON GAZA BY ISRAEL, 2009 AND 2012 AND '14 AND '21, AND I KNOW THE CAPACITY OF THE SYSTEM, AND I KNEW THAT A WAR IN GAZA, WITH REGARDS TO RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY, IS UNDERSERVED.

MY FAMILY WERE REFUGEES, MADE REFUGEES IN GAZA IN 1948 FROM SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES AROUND HERE, YOU KNOW, MY FAMILY'S LAND IS NOW OCCUPIED BY A SETTLEMENT, A HAMLET WHICH USED TO BE MY WHOLE FAMILY'S LAND.

SO, FOR ME, THE ATTACHMENT TO GAZA, BEYOND THE WORK I'VE DONE IN YEMEN AND IRAQ AND IN SYRIA, THE CONNECTION TO GAZA IS A MUCH MORE EXISTENTIAL AND MUCH MORE EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT THAN ANYWHERE ELSE THAT I'VE SERVED IN.

>> DR. GHASSAN ABU-SITTAH, THANK YOU, AND WE'LL KEEP CHECKING IN WITH YOU AND OBVIOUSLY TAKE CARE OVER THERE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, UKRAINE HAS FALLEN OFF THE HEADLINES RECENTLY, THOUGH THE WAR THERE RAGES ON.

FIERCE FIGHTING CONTINUES IN THE EAST, AS YOU CRANE REPORTS MASSIVE BLOWS TO RUSSIAN MILITARY AND EQUIPMENT.

MEANWHILE, CHAOS IN WASHINGTON THREATENS THE FUTURE OF AMERICAN SUPPORT.

WITH NO SPEAKER IN PLACE IN CONGRESS, AID REQUESTS BY THE PRESIDENT ARE SO FAR DEAD IN THE WATER.

ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK WAS A UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER AND IS NOW A GOVERNMENT ADVISER.

DO YOU FEEL YOUR STORY, YOUR CRISIS THERE, HAS FALLEN OFF THE RADAR?

DO YOU FEEL THAT?

>> NO, WE DON'T FEEL THAT.

WE, OF COURSE, SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THERE'S ANOTHER MAJOR CONFLICT STARTED IN THE WORLD, AND OBVIOUSLY, IT TAKES A LOT OF THE ATTENTION, BUT RIGHTFULLY SO, BECAUSE IT'S AN ABSOLUTELY UNJUST WAR AND TOTALLY TRAGIC, BUT WE CANNOT SAY THAT THIS IS -- THIS IS AN AREA WHERE WE ARE JUST FIGHTING FOR ATTENTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WE EXPECT OUR PARTNERS TO BE STRATEGICALLY MINDED, AND THAT'S WHAT WE SEE FROM MOST OF THE GOVERNMENTS.

WHICH WE WORK WITH.

AND IT'S NOT ABOUT, LIKE, WHO GETS MORE AIR, IT'S ABOUT US FOLLOWING THE STRATEGIC PATH WITH OUR KEY ALLIES, KEY PARTNERS.

SO, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

>> YEAH, SO, I UNDERSTAND YOU, BUT OF COURSE, THE NARRATIVE AND PUBLIC OPINION IS VERY IMPORTANT.

BUT MOSTLY, ALSO, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BEING OFF THE AIR, IT'S ABOUT NOT GETTING CONGRESS IN THE UNITED STATES TO BE ABLE TO EVEN PUT A VOTE TO THE FLOOR TO VOTE FOR AND TO APPROVE OR NOT WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS ASKED FOR.

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU?

OR DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE ENOUGH FOR THE MOMENT TO GET THROUGH THIS CRISIS OF PARALYSIS OF WASHINGTON?

>> FOR THE MOMENT, WE HAVE.

WE ALSO SEE A MASSIVE SUPPORT OF AMERICAN PEOPLE.

WE SEE THE SUBSTANTIAL SUPPORT OF BOTH PARTIES.

WE DO SEE THAT, SO, THERE IS SOME POLITICAL ELEMENT AND THERE'S A LOT OF POLITICAL PRE-ELECTION SORT OF PROCESS, WHICH SOMETIMES SOME POLITICIANS, THEY ARE USING UKRAINE AS A TOOL IN THEIR POLITICAL BATTLES.

SOMETIMES THEY USE THE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY USE THE VERBIAGE AND SOMETIMES THEY USE THE APPROACHES WHICH WE ARE SURPRISED TO SEE.

PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY MISINFORM PUBLIC ABOUT THE CERTAIN THINGS ABOUT UKRAINE, PARTICULARLY HOW THE WAR GOES OR HOW THE ASSISTANCE PROVIDED AND SO ON.

BUT GENERALLY, WE ARE SEEING THE SUPPORT OF UNITED STATES, OF U.S. PEOPLE, AND WE ARE HOPING, AND EXPECTING, THAT THEY WOULD MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION, ACCORDING TO THEIR STRATEGIC INTERESTS.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE THEN.

YOU KNOW, IT'S OBVIOUSLY -- EVERYBODY RAISED IT TO AN IMPOSSIBLE LEVEL AND THEN STARTED TO TALK ABOUT HOW IT WASN'T DOING WELL, BUT IN REKRENT DAYS, WE HAVE HEARD THAT YOUR FORCES HAVE BROKEN THROUGH IN VARIOUS PARTS, THE ATTACKS HAVE BEEN USED AGAINST RUSSIAN ATTACK HELICOPTERS AND SUCH THINGS.

TELL US WHAT YOU CAN ABOUT THE STATE OF THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

>> WELL, UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE MOVING IN SOME AREAS INCREMENTALLY, IN SOME AREAS, WITH LIMITED SUCCESS.

IN SOME AREAS WITH A MUCH MORE SUCCESS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S BEEN A CROSSING IN KHERSON AREA, AND THERE'S BEEN A WHOLE NUMBER OF OTHER ADVANCES.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, ALSO, WE NEED TO NOT TO FORGET THAT RUSSIA IS CURRENTLY STARTING ITS OWN OFFENSIVE AGAINST UKRAINE, PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTHWEST OF DONETSK.

AND IT IS FAILING.

AND WE PROVIDE A LOT OF RESOURCES THERE.

IT'S GOING EXTREMELY HARD.

THERE'S, AGAIN, A LOT OF CASUALTIES, BUT RUSSIA PUTTING IMMENSE RESOURCES THERE.

IN THE BEGINNING OF THE -- OF THIS INTERVIEW, YOU MENTIONED THAT RUSSIA HAS ANOTHER, LIKE, A SPIKE IN CASUALTIES, AND THAT'S RELATED TO THIS PROCESS, BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST, AGAIN, THROWING PEOPLE TO THE FIRE, REGARDLESS OF THE -- REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME.

SO, THAT PART GOES -- IS EXTREMELY INTENSE AND -- BUT UKRAINE IS DEFINITELY STANDING ON THESE POSITIONS.

>> TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA, THE U.N. COMMISSION NOW HAS FOUND NEW EVIDENCE OF RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES IN YOUR COUNTRY, DELIBERATE KILLINGS, RAPE, THE REMOVAL OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN, AS WE'VE BEEN REPORTING.

BUT ALSO ACCUSES UKRAINIAN FORCES OF ABUSES, LIKE THREE CASES OF MISTREATMENT OF UKRAINIANS WHO HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF COLLABORATING WITH RUSSIA.

>> WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE BALANCE OF THIS SITUATION IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF CASES FROM RUSSIA, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN MISSING, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IMMENSE SUFFERING OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

AND WHAT WE SEE -- SAW RIGHT NOW FROM THE U.N. REPORT IS WHAT WE'VE ALL SEEN BEFORE, AND THAT'S BEEN REPORTED BY REPORTERS, BY HUMAN RIGHTS ANALYSTS AND ACTIVISTS LIKE -- FOR OVER A YEAR, FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF NOW.

SO, RIGHT NOW WHAT WE SEE IS BASICALLY OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION OF THOSE CLAIMS, WHICH HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE.

AND -- BUT WE ARE VERY MUCH IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS PROCESS.

THERE'S A LOT OF THE ATROCITIES WHICH HAVEN'T YET BEEN COVERED BY U.N. AND SO IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL SEE MORE AND MORE OF REPORTS LIKE THAT, AND IT'S TRULY SHOCKING, BUT YOU KNOW, FOR PEOPLE WHO READ IT FIRST TIME, BUT UKRAINE GOES THROUGH THIS SADLY ON A DAILY BASIS.

>> SO, CLEARLY THERE'S NO EQUALITY BETWEEN THE, YOU KNOW, ATROCITIES COMMITTED AGAINST YOU AND SOME OF THE ABUSES BY UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS, BUT JUST TO BE CLEAR, YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR SYSTEM WILL HOLD ANY UKRAINIAN SOLDIER OR ANYBODY ACCOUNTABLE IF THEY'RE SEEN TO HAVE VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAW AND COMMITTED CRIMES?

>> WE SEE THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS, THAT ALL KINDS OF -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, UKRAINE IS A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY IS TRANSPARENT.

AND EVERYTHING WHICH GOES WRONG, WHETHER IT'S REPORTED BY U.N. OR IT'S NOT REPORTED, SOMETIMES IT'S REPORTED BY UKRAINIAN MEDIA, IMMEDIATELY GETS INTO THE PRESS, IMMEDIATELY GETS TO THE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.

THIS IS, AS I SAID TO YOU BEFORE IN A PREVIOUS INTERVIEW, THIS IS THE MOST TRANSPARENT WAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

AND UKRAINE SHOWS THE PEOPLE THAT RULE OF LAW MEANS SOMETHING IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE WILL BE -- IT'S A COUNTRY WHICH LIVES ACCORDING TO THE EUROPEAN STANDARD.

SO, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A REACTION, AND OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE STEPS.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, AND IT'S AWHILE AGO, I THINK IT'S AWHILE AGO, WHERE, YOU KNOW, HE'S OBVIOUSLY JEWISH HIMSELF, AND HE PUT ALL HIS SYMPATHIES AND SUPPORT OF UKRAINIAN PEOPLE TO ISRAEL AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

AND HE ENCOURAGED, YOU KNOW, LEADERS TO GO AND SEE WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

BUT HE'S RECENTLY SAID THIS, DRAWING COMPARISONS BETWEEN HAMAS AND RUSSIA.

LET ME JUST PLAY THIS.

>> TERRORISTS LIKE PUTIN, OR LIKE HAMAS, SEEK TO HOLD FREE AND DEMOCRATIC NATIONS AS HOSTAGES, AND THEY WANT POWER OVER THOSE WHO SEEK FREEDOM.

THE TERRORISTS WILL NOT CHANGE.

THEY JUST MUST LOSE.

AND THAT MEANS WE MUST WIN.

WE DO.

IT REQUIRES PATIENCE, IT REQUIRES STEADY AND CONTINUOUS SUPPORT.

WE NEED TO TAKE THE RIGHT STEPS THAT SAVE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE FOR REAL.

>> SO, JUST A BRIEF LAST QUESTION, DO YOU THINK HE WILL VISIT ISRAEL?

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT.

AND DO YOU THINK THIS NARRATIVE THAT HE'S PUTTING OUT NOW, AND HIS SUPPORT -- YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU NEED TO GET THE GLOBAL SOUTH ON SIDE.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S MORE OR LESS LIKELY TO HAPPEN NOW?

>> WELL, I SINCERELY HOPE THAT HE WILL VISIT, THAT DEPENDS ON ISRAEL, AND SO, WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT THEY SAY.

WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THIS WAR INDEED HAS SOME SHOCKING SIMILARITIES.

SO, ONE OF THEM IS ABRUPTNESS, OF COURSE.

SECONDLY, IT'S THE FACT THAT THERE'S BEEN ALMOST IRRATIONAL CRUELTY, WHICH THE WHOLE WORLD SEES, THROWN ON THE CIVILIAN PEOPLE.

AND WE BELIEVE, YES, THIS IS SOME COMMON AGENDA IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE, WHOEVER IS ATTACKING, THE AGGRESSOR, IS BASICALLY THREATENING THE WORLD ORDER AND SAYING, OKAY, WE WILL DO THAT, THE WHOLE WORLD WILL SEE THAT, AND WE WILL GET OUT OF THIS WITHOUT ANY OR SOME LIMITED REPERCUSSIONS TO OUR SIDE.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS TO NOT ALLOW.

BECAUSE WE NEED -- THE UKRAINIAN WAR NEEDS TO BECOME A POSITIVE PRECEDENT FOR THE FUTURE HISTORY.

AND THAT IS ONLY POSSIBLE IF AGGRESSOR LOSES AND AGGRESSOR CLEARLY SUFFERS FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

>> OKAY.

>> IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN SAYING THAT WARS LIKE THAT WILL REPEAT.

SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY, RUSSIA WILL ATTACK OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT AS WE SEE RIGHT NOW, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE RUSSIA.

IT CAN BE OTHER WARS REPEATING UKRAINIAN WAR PATTERN.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO NOT ALLOW.

THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD NEEDS TO HAVE A COMMON STRET.

>>> ABOUT THIS.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, WHETHER IT WAS RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE OR NOW THE WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, PEOPLE ACROSS THE GLOBE ARE VOICING THEIR OPINIONS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WITH THAT COMES TRIBALISM, DEEPER POLARIZATION, AND OFTEN DEHUMANIZING NARRATIVES.

BUT AUTHOR BEN SHEEHAN CALLED FOR GREATER COMPASSION AND NUANCE IN RESPONSE, AND HE NOW JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE DANGERS OF PROPAGANDA ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

BEN SHEEHAN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> I THINK SOME PEOPLE KNOW YOUR WORK BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN IN COMEDY FOR A LONG TIME, I MEAN, YOU WERE THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AT THE COMEDY WEBSITE FUNNY OR DIE, AND THEN YOU PIVOTED TO CIVICS EDUCATION, SO, I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, CONSTITUENCIES.

THE REASON WE CALLED YOU IS THAT YOU POSTED SOMETHING ON INSTAGRAM THAT JUST KIND OF WENT EVERYWHERE.

AND IT JUST SEEMED TO DIFFERENT FROM THE TONE OF SO MUCH OF WHAT WE WERE SEEING ON SOCIAL MEDIA AT THE TIME.

I THINK IT REALLY CAUGHT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

WHAT YOU SAID WAS, IF YOU HAVE LESS EMPATHY TOWARDS VICTIMS BECAUSE OF HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEIR GOVERNMENT, PROPAGANDA IS WORKING ON YOU.

THAT WAS THE FIRST SLIDE OUT OF FIVE.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE OTHERS.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAD BEEN WORKING THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS ON A PROJECT AROUND PROPAGANDA, ACTUALLY, THE HISTORY OF PROPAGANDA, SPECIFICALLY ANTI-SEMITIC PROPAGANDA, AND SEEING THE POSTS THAT WERE HAPPENING ON INSTAGRAM AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, I WAS SEEING ECHOES OF THAT.

PROPAGANDA WAS ALREADY TOP OF MIND.

MY TAKE ABAY FROM ALL THE RESEARCH THAT I WAS DOING, THE MAIN GOAL OF PROPAGANDA IS TO DEHUMANIZE NOT JUST THE RECIPIENT, BUT ALSO PEOPLE OTHER THAN THE RECIPIENT, IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY SUPPORT FOR HONESTLY ATROCIOUS ACTIONS.

SO, I STARTED TO SEE POSTS THAT WERE DISRESPECTFUL TOWARDS ISRAELIS, DISRESPECTFUL TOWARDS PALESTINIANS, AND I WANTED TO TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THIS IS ABOUT EVERYONE'S HUMANITY.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT LOOKING AT SOMEBODY AS THOUGH THEY ARE LESS THAN YOU AND WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND SO THAT WE CAN IN INKNOCK INKNOCK EWE LATE OURSELVES FROM PROPAGANDA.

>> YOUR POST WAS SEEN BY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, WHICH IS JUST HARD EVEN TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND.

I MEAN, IT WAS SHARED BY CELEBRITIES, THE ISRAELI ACTRESS GAL GADOT, COMEDIAN SARA SILVERMAN, THE FIRST SLIDE, I'M JUST GOING TO SAY IT AGAIN, OKAY, IT SAID, IF YOU HAVE LESS EMPATHY TOWARDS VICTIMS BECAUSE OF HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEIR GOVERNMENT, PROPAGANDA IS WORKING ON YOU.

THAT WAS THE FIRST SLIDE.

THE SECOND, THE GOAL OF PROPAGANDA IS TO DEHUMANIZE.

IT WORKS TO DEHUMANIZE ISRAELIS AND IT WORKS TO DEHUMANIZE GAZANS.

SLIDE THREE.

PROPAGANDA IS EVERYWHERE.

IT SEEKS TO BLOCK OUR EMPATHY RECEPTORS SO WHEN WE SEE VIOLENCE, WE RATIONALIZE AWAY OUR HUMAN RESPONSE.

SLIDE FOUR, I LIKE TO THINK MOST OF US ARE ABOVE PROPAGANDA, BUT THIS WEEKEND REMINDED ME HOW WIDESPREAD IT IS, BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE REACTED TO THIS VIOLENCE WITH JUSTIFICATION, NOT EMPATHY.

I GUESS IT'S NOT SURPRISING, BUT IT'S STILL HEARTBREAKING.

SLIDE FIVE, KILLING INNOCENT PALESTINIANS IS HORRIFIC.

KILLING INNOCENT ISRAELIS IS HORRIFIC.

IF YOU DON'T FEEL THE SAME, I THINK YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF WHY THAT IS.

I MEAN, IT JUST -- HONESTLY, IT'S JUST SO US SINGT.

AND IT'S NOT POETRY, BUT IT ALMOST JUST CUTS YOU.

AND I WAS JUST KIND OF WONDERING HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO DISTILL SOMETHING INTO SO FEW WORDS.

>> WELL, NOT TO MINIMIZE WHAT I WROTE, BUT YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, WHERE I WAS IN A TAXI RIDE TO THE AIRPORT AND I JUST WROTE IT DOWN IN FIVE MINUTES.

I JUST SORT OF TRIED TO DISTILL MY IMMEDIATE REACTION.

AND AGAIN, IF IT WASN'T THE FACT THAT I HAD BEEN WORKING ON THIS RESEARCH PROJECT, WHICH IS HONESTLY LOOKING AT DOG WHISTLES, ANTI-SEMITIC DOG WHISTLES AND HOW THOSE OVER TIME, THE REPETITION OF THOSE AND THE VARIETY OF THOSE, CAN SLOWLY CAUSE PEOPLE TO THINK A CERTAIN WAY.

SO, IT REALLY IS SORT OF A FACE SET DRIPPING RATHER THAN A FIRE HOSE.

I SAW POSTS LIKE THIS IN 2021, WHEN THERE WAS THE LAST SORT OF MAJOR CONFLICT IN THE REGION, AND EVEN GOING BACK TO 2014.

AND SO, REALLY, NOT REALLY BEING AWARE OF JUST SINGLE POST, BUT ALSO, HOW THE TOTALITY AND THE SUM OF MOSTS OVER TIME, BIT BY BIT, CAN SORT OF CHIP AWAY AT OUR SHARED HUMANITY.

>> YOU ALSO WROTE AN ESSAY IN "THE DAILY BEAST" ALSO ABOUT THE INSTAGRAM POST, BUT THAT ALSO KIND OF REACTING TO THE REACTION TO IT, AND SORT OF EXPANDING MORE ON YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS.

THE -- HOW DO YOU SEE THIS PLAYING OUT, IF YOU DON'T, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO SORT OF THE ESSAY, HOW HAVE YOU SEEN THIS PLAYING OUT?

AND HAVE YOU SEEN IT PLAYING OUT IN ANY WAYS THAT SURPRISED YOU?

>> SURE, SO, YOU KNOW, I TALK ABOUT IN THE ESSAY SORT OF THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PROPAGANDA.

THERE'S DISTORTION, RIGHT?

THERE'S TAKING SOMETHING THAT IS A VIDEO OF AN EVENT FROM A YEAR AGO, FIVE YEARS AGO, SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, AND PURPORTING AS IF IT HAPPENED TODAY OR THE DAY BEFORE.

WE CAN TAKE VIDEOS OUT OF CONTEXT AND CHANGE THE CAPTION AND SUDDENLY PEOPLE WILL LATCH ONTO IT AS IF IT'S REAL AND GOSPEL AND START SHARING IT, AND THAT CAN HAVE LEGITIMATELY DAMAGING CONSEQUENCES.

AND THAT IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO ONE SIDE OF THIS CONFLICT.

THE OTHER THING IS, YOU KNOW, I TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT IN MY OWN WORK AROUND CIVICS, BUT IT APPLIES TO HISTORY, AS WELL.

WE AMERICANS ARE NOT WELL EDUCATED, ANY OF US, REALLY, THE VAST MAJORITY OF US IN THE HISTORY OF THIS REGION.

AND SO, THERE ARE BAD ACTORS SOMETIMES THAT WILL TAKE FRAMING DEVICES THAT ARE OVERLY SIMPLIFIED, THAT CONDENSE THINGS DOWN INTO REALLY EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE FRAMEWORK.

AND THAT'S APPEALS, BECAUSE IT'S REALLYSELF-EDUCATE.

AND THE THIRD THING, THAT'S A SORT OF FALSE COMPARISON, I LIKE TO CALL.

AND THE LAST THING IS OMISSION.

THIS IS WHERE I TALK ABOUT MY OWN BLIND SPOTS, AND IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO REALIZE THE BLIND SPOTS THAT I HAD AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS STUDIED THIS REGION, BUT DEFINITE YOU WILL WAS GIVEN A SLANTED VERSION OF IT GROWING UP IN MY OWN RELIGIOUS EDUCATION, MY JEWISH EDUCATION, MY SCHOOL EDUCATION, UNIVERSITY.

AND SO, REALLY LOOKING INWARD AT MYSELF, ALWAYS CHALLENGING MYSELF TO KEEP READING RELIABLE, LEGITIMATE, FACTUAL SOURCES.

BUT THE TRUTH IS, WE ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO FILL OUR KNOWLEDGE GAPS, AND THAT WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE GAPS.

SO, BEING AWARE OF WHAT OUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS IS IS SOMETHING THAT, MYSELF INCLUDED, A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO AND HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP TRYING TO CORRECT.

>> HAD YOU COME TO THAT INSIGHT FOR YOURSELF, THAT YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE GAPS, EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE JEWISH BY HERITAGE, HAVE CERTAINLY CONNECTIONS TO THE STORY, AS WELL AS THE RELIGIOUS IMPORTANCE TO SO MANY PEOPLE IN YOUR FAMILY.

SO, HOW DID YOU SEE THAT IN YOURSELF, THOSE KNOWLEDGE GAPS?

>> TALKING TO PALESTINIAN FRIENDS IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS THAN MINE AND HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM, AND THEY WERE KIND ENOUGH TO TAKE, YOU KNOW, THE TIME TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS, WHICH, I'M SURE, YOU KNOW, ARE PAINFUL.

I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT ANYBODY ELSE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO EDUCATE ME, BUT IT'S GOOD TO HAVE WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE THAT TIME, BUT IT REALLY WAS A CONVERSATION THAT I HAD IN 2019.

I WENT ON A TRIP TO -- TO ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, SO, WE SPENT MOST OF THE TIME IN ISRAEL, BUT WE DID SPEND SOME SOMETIME IN RAMALLAH, AND IT WAS -- >> ON THE WEST BANK.

>> IN THE WEST BANK, YES, AND IT WAS A CONVERSATION THAT I HAD WITH A YOUNG PALESTINIAN DJ ABOUT MY AGE AND TALKING WITH HIM ABOUT HIS OWN EXPERIENCE AND HIS FAMILY'S EXPERIENCE, AND GOING BACK, YOU KNOW, TO THE FOUNDING OF ISRAEL AND ALSO BEFORE.

AND IT CAUSED ME TO QUESTION MY OWN BACKGROUND, TO DO MORE RESEARCH, BUT TO FIND, YOU KNOW, LITTLE GAPS IN MY KNOWLEDGE AND THINGS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN OMITTED.

AND THE THING THAT'S HARD WITH OMISSION IS THAT YOU CAN PRESENT SOMETHING THAT IS ENTIRELY 100% FACTUAL, BUT SIMPLY LEAVES OUT INFORMATION.

SO, YOU'RE NOT DISTORTING THE INFORMATION, YOU'RE JUST NOT GIVING THE ENTIRE PICTURE.

AND IT'S VERY HARD WHEN THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE DON'T KNOW THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

AND SO, IT REALLY IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT BACK GROUNDS, TO GO TO THESE PLACES IF YOU ARE FORTUNATE AND LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AS I WAS, TO GO ON A SPONSORED TRIP TO THE REGION, BUT THE OTHER THING I SORT OF TALK ABOUT IN THE ESSAY IS THAT SOCIAL MEDIA WORKS TO PUT US IN SILOS, RIGHT?

THE ALGORITHMS GAME IT SO WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING FED THINGS THAT WE TEND TO ALREADY AGREE WITH.

AND SO, WE'RE NOT JUST BREAKING OUT OF KNOWLEDGE GAPS IN OUR OWN LIVES.

WE'RE ALSO BREAKING OUT OF THESE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, SILOS THAT WE PUT INTO JUST BY THE NATURE OF USING SOCIAL MEDIA.

SO, HOPEFULLY PEOPLE CAN BE MORE AWARE OF THAT, FOLLOW CREATORS THAT MAY BE DIFFERENT, HAVE DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, TALK TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, IF YOU ARE ABLE TO GO TO PLACES.

BUT THIS IS A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY, BUT AS I MENTION IN THE ESSAY, IT'S HONESTLY THE LEAST WE CAN DO.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT FALSE COMPARISON.

YOU HAVE AN INTERESTING ANALYSIS OF, IN YOUR DAILY BEAST ESSAY, OF PEOPLE WHO COMPARE THE RELATIONSHIP THAT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE, MANY BLACK AMERICANS HAVE WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THE ONE THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE WITH THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE.

CAN YOU JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, OF COURSE.

SO, YOU KNOW, AND I RESPECT THE APPROACH OF MANY JOURNALISTS TO TRY TO FIND WAYS TO CREATE ANALOGIES WHERE THEIR AUDIENCE CAN UNDERSTAND A SITUATION.

THE PROBLEM IS, IS WHEN YOU STOP AT THE ANALOGY.

SO, LIKE I MENTION, YOU KNOW, IN A VACUUM, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, THE GOVERNMENT DEFENSE FORCES AND PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IS ANALOGOUS TO A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE FORCE AND POLICE OFFICERS IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH ARE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, AND AFRICAN AMERICAN CIVILIANS.

BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, WE HAVE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, WE HAVE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS, WE HAVE DIFFERENT PEOPLE, WE HAVE DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS AND DYNAMICS.

THERE'S SO MUCH HISTORY OUTSIDE OF THAT.

SO, I THINK THE RISK IS, IN AN EFFORT TO CREATE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S GOING ON, WE TEND TO LEAVE OUT ALL THE CONTEXT OF WHAT MAKES IT A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

AND THAT INVOLVED A LOT OF -- AGAIN A LOT OF RESEARCH, BECAUSE WE DON'T TEACH THIS STUFF ENOUGH IN OUR SCHOOLS.

WE DON'T TEACH HISTORY ENOUGH.

WE DON'T TEACH CIVICS ENOUGH.

AND WE DON'T TEACH MEDIA LITERACY ENOUGH.

THERE HAS BECOME AN IMPORTANT FOCUS FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO BE GOOD, RESPONSIBLE NEWS CONSUMERS ON THE INTERNET, AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, WHEN YOU ARE BEING INUNDATED WITH BOTH ACCURATE SOURCES AND AS, I WOULD SAY, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, INACCURATE SOURCES.

>> WHAT'S THE THROUGH LINE OF YOUR CAREER?

DO YOU SEE ONE?

I MEAN, SO, COMEDY, TO CIVICS EDUCATION, TO -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW, ARE THEY RELATED?

>> EITHER I GET BORED EASILY, OR THERE IS A THROUGH LINE THAT EXISTS.

I OFTEN THINK ABOUT AN EVENT THAT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS 5 YEARS OLD.

MY PARENTS WORKED IN THE GOVERNMENT, OR WITH THE MOM TOOK A NAPKIN AND SHE DREW A HOUSE.

ON ONE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, SHE WROTE THE NUMBER 435.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, SHE WROTE THE NUMBER 100.

THAT WAS MY FIRST LESSON ABOUT CONGRESS.

IT WAS LITERALLY BACK OF THE NAPKIN.

AND, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL DECADES LATER, I'M TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO TAKE THAT NAPKIN, TAKE THAT PEN, AND SIMPLIFY THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE MORE OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF IT AND REALLY JUST HAVE IT BE AN ENTRY POINT FOR A LIFETIME OF LEARNING AND SELF-EDUCATING.

>> HOW DOES THAT LOOP INTO YOUR CONCERNS, FEARS, ABOUT PROPAGANDA, ESPECIALLY IN THE SOCIAL MEDIA AGE?

I MEAN, IS PART OF YOUR FEAR THAT THE REASON -- PART OF THE REASON WHY WE ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO PROPAGANDA, IS BECAUSE WE DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW THE GOVERNMENT WORKS OR IS SUPPOSED TO WORK?

WHAT'S THE THROUGH LINE THERE?

>> I THINK IT'S EVEN DEEPER.

IN A DEMOCRACY, A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY, A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, WHERE PEOPLE UMENT MATLY CHOOSE THEIR LEADERS, IF WE DON'T HAVE A COMMON FOUNDATION OF JUST SIMPLE FACTS ON WHICH TO AGREE, THEN WE'RE GOING TO START TO FIGHT EACH OTHER.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A WELL-EDUCATED DECISION ON WHO LEADERS SHOULD BE, AND THEN WE HAVE PEOPLE COMING TO POW WHOLE ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PEOPLE'S WISHES, AND I THINK THAT IS VERY MUCH THE CASE IN BOTH ISRAEL AND WITH PALESTINE.

YOU HAVE GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE LED BY PEOPLE THAT DON'T REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTERS, AS WE'VE SEEN, BY THE WAY, IN ISRAEL IN THE LAST YEAR, WE HAD PEOPLE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS TAKING TO THE STREETS THE PROTEST NETANYAHU'S ATTEMPT TO WEAKEN THE SUPREME COURT, A WHOLE BRAWN CH OF THE GOVERNMENT.

SO, WE'RE SEEING THE RESULTS OF SOMETHING, WHEN WE HAVE EXTREMIST LEADERS THAT DON'T REPRESENT WHO I BELIEVE TO BE THE MAJORITY OR THE MAJORITY SENTIMENT OF CIVILIANS, AND I'M SEEING THE BEGINNING STAGES OF THAT IN THIS COUNTRY, WITH THINGS LIKE -- WITH GERRYMANDERING, OTHER WAYS TO TILT THE PLAYING FIELD.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO BE AWARE OF THAT.

THROUGH ALL THE WORK THAT I DO, IF IT'S POLITICAL, HISTORICAL, THE COMEDIC, I'M ALWAYS COMING BACK TO THAT SAME POINT.

WE NEED TO HAVE A SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF FACTS AND REALITY TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS FOR WHO OUR LEADERS SHOULD BE.

>> AREN'T WE ALREADY THERE?

WE ALREADY DON'T HAVE A SHARED VERSION OF REALITY.

YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO DO NOT ACCEPT, AT LEAST THEY SAY THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THAT THE JANUARY 6th MOB ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL WAS AN EFFORT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE ELECTED LEADERS, ELECTED OFFICIALS SAYING THAT THESE WERE JUST TOURISTS TAKING A TOUR.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND THEY WERE THERE.

AND THEY WERE THERE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, I KIND OF -- AREN'T WE ALREADY THERE IN A WAY, OR IS THAT ONE OF THOSE FALSE COMPARISONS THAT YOU'RE WARNING US ABOUT?

>> NO, I THINK WE DEFINITELY ARE THERE WHEN IT COMES TO -- WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN THINGS LIKE WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.

I WANT TO NOTE THE ROLE THAT, YOU KNOW, GERRYMANDERING PLAYS IN SELECTING OUR MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN IN A WAY SO THAT ONLY A MINORITY IN THE HOUSE ARE COMPETITIVE.

IT'S THINGS LIKE THAT MANIPULATING WHO ENDS UP IN CONGRESS, AND I DON'T THINK, BECAUSE OF THAT, THEY ARE ACCURATELY REPRESENTATIVE OF PUBLIC OPINION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO RETAIN EMPATHY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU AND I ARE SITTING HERE IN OUR RESPECTIVE PLACES, AND WE ARE CLEAN, SAFE, WARM, AND DRY, AND I'M THINKING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE WHO WATCH THEIR RELATIVES GET GUNNED DOWN IN THEIR KITCHENS.

WHO WATCHED THEIR LOVED ONES GET SHOVED IN THE BACK OF A CAR BY THEIR HAIR AND DRAGGED TO GAZA, TO BE HELD AS HOSTAGES, RIGHT?

NOT KNOWING WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM.

AND I'M ALSO THINKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE WATCHED THEIR LOVED ONES OR OTHER PEOPLE THEY CARE ABOUT, DIGGING THEIR KIDS OUT OF RUBBLE WITH THEIR BARE HANDS.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH ALL THAT?

DOES THAT -- IS THAT YOUR ARGUMENT THAT THE NEED TO RETAIN EMPATHY, IS THAT FOR ALL OF US, OR FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING DISPASSIONATE AT THIS MOMENT, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK THAT -- I HAVE FRIENDS OF MINE WHOSE FAMILY MEMBERS WERE ABDUCTED BY HAMAS, FROM THEIR KIBBUTZ AND BROUGHT TO GAZA AND MY FRIENDS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEM.

I HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE PALESTINIAN WHOSE RELATIVES HAVE EXPERIENCED UNIMAGINABLE THINGS HAPPENING TO THEM AND THEIR HOMES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DRIVEN FROM THEIR HOMES AND CAN NEVER GO BACK.

AND I THINK THERE'S A TENDENCY, AND I'M NOT HERE TO LAY BLAME ON THE NEWS MEDIA EXCLUSIVELY OR MOSTLY OR ANYTHING, BUT I THINK THERE'S A TENDENCY TO REPORT THINGS IN STATISTICS THAT KIND OF ARE HARD TO GRASP OUR HEADS AROUND.

IF WE HEAR STATS OF -- 50 PEOPLE ARE KILLED, 200 PEOPLE ARE KILLED, THE NUMBERS ARE HORRIBLE, BUT WE DON'T RELATE TO IT AS MUCH AS AN IMAGE OF A CHILD WHO SURVIVED A BOMBING AND IS SHELL SHOCKED AND DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO RESPOND.

WE DON'T RESPOND TO IT AS MUCH AS A SINGLE CASE STUDY OF A CHILD AND THAT CHILD BEING IN GAZA.

WE DON'T RESPOND TO IT AS MUCH AS SEEING A VIDEO OF A CHILD WHO LIVED ON A KIBBUTZ FINDING OUT NONE OF HIS FAMILY MEMBERS SURVIVED.

THERE IS A HUMANITY AWOKEN IN US BY SEEING A SINGLE CASE STUDY OF A PERSON, AND I THINK GREAT LITERATURE DOES, AND I THINK GREAT NEWS MEDIA DOES THAT, BECAUSE IT ALLOWS US TO SEE OURSELVES IN THAT PERSON.

MAYBE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH, BUT RECOGNIZE THE HUMANITY AND FEEL EMPATHY.

>> BEN SHEEHAN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> FASCINATING.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, FROM THE ARCHIVE, MY 2009 REPORT AFTER ONE OF THE LAST GAZA WARS, WHEN I TOLD THE STORY OF THE BATTLE FOR THE YOUNGEST HEARTS AND MINDS.

I SAW THE IMPACT OF WAR ON THESE CHILDREN.

NO ONE, NOT THEIR PARENTS OR THEIR TEACHERS, COULD PROTECT THEM FROM INESCAPABLE VIOLENCE.

SO, WHO DID THEY TURN TO?

TAKE A LOOK.

IT'S A CAUTIONARY TALE.

CHILDREN USUALLY LOVE TO CROWD AROUND OUR CAMERAS.

BUT WAR HAS TERRIFIED THEM.

AND AT FIRST, THEY STAYED AWAY, BECAUSE WE WERE STRANGERS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

WE BROUGHT THEM STICKERS AND TOYS TO TRY TO PUT THEM AT EASE.

BUT IT WAS HARD WORK, WITH SOME OF THEM.

>> YOU WANT IT?

THEY'RE CONVINCING HIM.

>> DEEPLY SUSPICIOUS.

THERE YOU GO.

HE WOULD ONTO TAKE THE BALL AFTER I HAD LEFT IT ON THE GROUND.

AND EVEN THEN, HE NEEDED COMFORTABLE.

THEY'RE SWEET TO EACH OTHER, THE CHILDREN.

>> THEY ARE.

>> MONA WORKS FOR AN AMERICAN CHARITY CALLED ANIRA, WHOSE MISSION IS TO GIVE THESE CHILDREN A POSITIVE FUTURE AND INTERRUPT THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE HERE.

>> I THINK IF WE DON'T HELP THEM OUT OF THIS, THEY WILL BE NOT OPEN TO THE WORLD.

THEY CANNOT FOCUS ON THEIR EDUCATION OR IN THEIR WORK.

I DON'T THINK THEY WILL BECOME BENEFICIAL MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY.

>> DURING THE WAR, HEAVY SHELLING RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO THE SCHOOL DAMAGED CLASSROOMS AND DESTROYED THE HOMES OF 35 OF THESE CHILDREN.

DO YOU THINK THESE CHILDREN ARE GOING TO LEARN FROM WHAT THEY'VE SEEN AND LIVED THROUGH AND BECOME MORE VIOLENT?

>> OF COURSE, THEY ACQUIRED SOME VIOLENCE BEING SUBJECTED TO THIS VIOLENCE.

AND YOU KNOW, THIS -- IT IS A CIRCLE.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO -- TO ACT QUICKLY.

>> SINCE THIS LATEST ROUND OF WAR, TEACHERS HAVE NOTICED NOT JUST SADNESS, BUT ANGER.

HAMZA HITS A BOY WITH THE BALL WE'VE GIVEN HIM.

WHEN AN ADULT TELLS HIM TO SHARE, HE MAKES AN EXTRAORDINARY THREAT.

HE WANTS TO BRING IN THE HAMAS MILITIA.

FOR HIM, THEY ARE THE STRONGEST AUTHORITY.

>> HE THINKS THEY ARE THE STRONG ONES.

>> HAMZA'S REACTION IS NOT UNUSUAL.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING -- ACCORDING TO PROMINENT CHILD PSYCHOLOGISTS, WAR HAS TAUGHT THEM THAT NOT EVEN THEIR PARENTS CAN PROTECT THEM.

>> YOUNG BOY WILL START TO LOOK FOR ANOTHER SYMBOL OF POWER TO IDENTIFY WITH, AND THE REPLACEMENT WAS THE MILITANT.

AND THAT WAS THE WAY IN, INTO THE MILITANT GROUP.

>> THE DOCTOR NOW SEES A DISTURBING TREND.

WHEN HE ASKS THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO BE WHEN THEY GROW UP, A THIRD OF THEM SAY -- >> I WOULD LIKE TO BE A MARTYR.

>> REALLY?

THAT'S VERY HIGH.

>> THAT'S VERY HIGH.

WHEN YOU HAVE ABNORMAL ENVIRONMENT, YOU ARE GOING TO CREATE ABNORMAL REACTIONS.

♪♪ >> WE FOLLOWED HAMZA AND HIS SISTER ON THE LONG WALK BACK TO THE REFUGEE CAME WRP THEY LIVE.

DAMAGE IS EVERYWHERE.

HAMZA, HIS NINE SIBLINGS, AND HIS PARENTS, LIVE HERE.

OH, MY GOD.

THEY TELL ME THEIR HOME WAS HIT BY MISSILES, TWICE.

IT SO FRIGHTENED THEIR 90-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER THAT SHE NOW SPENDS HER DAYS SITTING OUTSIDE IN THE DUST.

UNPROMPTED, HAMZA LAUNCHES INTO A TOUR OF HIS DEVASTATED HOME.

COMPLETE WITH SOUND EFFECTS AND A STREAM OF EXPLANATIONS.

>> THAT MISSILE'S SMALL.

THIS IS A BIG ONE.

>> AND THIS WAS YOUR MATTRESS?

>> YES.

>> HAMZA'S FAMILY SURVIVED IN A SHELTER.

NOW, THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO MOVE, BECAUSE THE FAMILY BUSINESS IS RUINED.

THE MEN ARE WEDDING MUSICIANS, BUT THEIR INSTRUMENTS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

>> Translator: A TANK WAS SHOOTING AT THE HOUSE.

IT HURT THE DRUMS.

BUT I DID NOT DIE.

>> HAMZA'S MOTHER HAD WANTED SOMETHING SO DIFFERENT FOR HER SON, FOR ALL HER CHILDREN.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE WHEN YOU GROW UP?

>> Translator: WHEN I GROW UP, I WILL BE A DOCTOR AND HAVE MONEY.

>> RIGHT NOW, HAMZA'S PROSPECTS ARE BLEAK.

>> Translator: I WANT TO LIVE LIKE OTHER CHILDREN.

>> HE WANTS TO BE JUST LIKE OTHER CHILDREN.

A CAUTIONARY TALE, INDEED.

HAMZA MUST BE NEARLY 20 NOW.

MAYBE HE JOINED THE MILITANTS, MAYBE NOT.

BUT WHAT'S CLEAR IS THE ENDLESS CYCLE OF HOPELESSNESS CLEARLY FAVORS RADICALIZATION, AND SO IT GOES.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.