>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT JUSTICE ROBERT CORDY ON HIS ROLE ON UKRAINE'S JUDICIARY ETHICS COUNCIL, AND THE ANTI-CORRUPTION WORK THAT'S PUSHED FORWARD, IN SPITE OF RUSSIA'S BRUTAL ASSAULT ON THE COUNTRY.

PLUS, FORMER OBAMA SPEECHWRITER CODY KEENAN JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK "GRACE," AND WHY HE THINKS TEN DAYS IN JUNE 2015 DEFINED THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY.

>> Braude: WHEN RUSSIA LAUNCHED ITS ALL-OUT ASSAULT ON UKRAINE, IT UPENDED MILLIONS OF LIVES, FORCED EVERYDAY PEOPLE TO FLEE THEIR HOMES OR STAY AND FIGHT, AND ENDED LIFE AS UKRAINIANS KNEW IT.

MADE THE EFFORT TO REFORM THE COUNTRY'S COURT SYSTEM.

THAT MUCH HARDER.

THE ETHICS COUNCIL OF THE JUDICIARY OF UKRAINE WAS CREATED LAST NOVEMBER IN AN EFFORT TO TURN AROUND A LONG HISTORY OF CORRUPTION WITHIN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, INCLUDING ALLEGATIONS OF BRIBERY, CONTROL BY POLITICAL BOSSES, AND JUDGES USING THEIR COURTS TO CARRY OUT POLITICAL ORDERS.

THE COUNCIL IS TASKED WITH APPROVING CANDIDATES TO BE APPOINTED TO THE COUNTRIES HIGH COUNCIL OF JUSTICE, WHICH IS CHARGED WITH APPOINTING, DISCIPLINING AND DISMISSING JUDGES.

IT'S MADE UP OF THREE UKRAINIAN AND THREE INTERNATIONAL LEGAL EXPERTS, AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO CONVENE IN UKRAINE IN FEBRUARY, BUT OBVIOUSLY THE FIGHTING FORCED THEM TO MAKE OTHER PLANS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY ONE OF THE COUNCIL'S MEMBERS, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT JUSTICE ROBERT CORDY.

JUSTICE CORDY, IT'S GOOD TO SIGH.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, JIM.

>> HOW BAD WAS THE CORRUPTION IN THE JUDICIARY IN UKRAINE THAT MERITED THIS KIND OF ACTION?

>> WELL, I CAN'T TELL YOU IN DEPTH ABOUT THE CORRUPTION BUT CAN I TELL YOU THAT IT WAS A REAL FACTOR.

IS PUBLIC TRUST HAD REACHED THE LOWEST OF LEVELS.

AND INTERNATIONALLY THE EU AND OTHERS RECOGNIZED THAT IT WAS A HUGE PRIORITY FOR THE COUNTRY.

IF THE COUNTRY WANTED TO, FOR EXAMPLE, BE A CANDIDATE FOR THE EU.

THEY REALLY NEEDED TO ADDRESS CORRUPTION AND SOME OF THE OTHER QUALITIES OF THE UKRAINIAN JUDICIARY.

>> Braude: MY UNDERSTANDING IS, FROM WHAT I HAVE READ ABOUT T NOT ONLY DID IT SEEM LIKE A MOB OPERATION, MY WORD, NOT YOURS, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF REPORTS THAT PRORUSSIAN OLIGARCHS ATTEMPTEDDED TO UNDERMINE ANY ATTEMPT TO FIX THE JUDICIARY, OBVIOUSLY, TO UNDERMINE UKRAINE'S EFFORT AT STATEHOOD, THAT SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT, DOESN'T IT?

>> IT SURE DOES.

AND WE WERE ONCE THE INTERNATIONAL MEMBERS WERE APPOINTED, THERE WAS A BIT OF A CAMPAIGN TO SLANNER US AND THAT WAS REALLY PROMPTED, I THINK, BY THE SAME FORCES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

>> Braude: DID PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, I THINK IT WAS LAST JUNE, YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES WERE APPOINTED.

WAS THIS BECAUSE HE LEGITIMATELY CARES ABOUT THIS OR BECAUSE IT WAS A DEMAND OF THE EU?

WHAT WAS THE MOTIVATION IN YOUR ESTIMATION.

>> I THINK A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.

THIS IS PART OF A LARGER REFORM MOVEMENT THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR THE LAST FIVE OR SIX YEARS, GAINING MOMENTUM OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

BOTH ADDRESSED TO THE JUDICIARY WHICH IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT IN ALL OF THIS.

AND ALSO TO CORRUPTION MORE BROADLY IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE ANTICORRUPTION COURT IN UKRAINE, WHICH OCCURRED IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, WAS A HUGE STEP IN REALLY CREATING A COURT TO FOCUS ENCORE RUPTION WITHIN THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT STEP AND THEN THIS IS AN PORNTS STEP TO TRY TO CREATE A MORE TRUSTED, JUDICIARY FROM THE HIGHEST LEVELS DOWN TO THE BOTTOM.

>> Braude: I HOPE YOU DON'T TAKE THT WRONG WAY, WHY DID THEY PICK YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I WAS RECOMMENDED.

I WAS RECOMMENDED BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND I I BELIEVE THE WORLD BANK AS WELL.

IN PART I THINK BECAUSE I HAVE WORKED WITH JUDICIARIES AROUND THE WORLD IN THE LAST 21 YEARS.

AND HAVE WORKED EXTENSIVELY IN ASIA, EASTERN EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE.

BACK WHEN I WAS ON THE COURT I HOSTED SOME DELEGATIONS OF UKRAINIAN JUDGES WHO WERE IN BOSTON TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IN 2015 I WAS INVITED TO SPEAK AT A JUDICIAL AND LEGAL REFORM CONFERENCE IN KYIV SPONSORED BY THE BAR ASSOCIATION OF UKRAINE.

ON JUDICIAL INDEPENDENCE AND THEN WAS INVITED BACK ON 2016 TO TALK ABOUT TRANSPARENCY AND AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A FREE PRESS AND AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY.

AND GOT TO KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THE CHALLENGES, TRUST ME, THE CORRUPTION CHALLENGES, THE LACK OF INDEPENDENCE, AND THE PEOPLE STRUGGLING AGAINST THAT BECAUSE THERE REALLY WERE STRUGGLES AGAINST THAT TO TRY TO CHANGE THAT.

>> Braude: ASK YOU SPEAK MORE PRECISELY ABOUT WHAT YOUR MANDATE IS?

WHAT ARE YOU CHARGED WITH DOING?

>> WELL, THE HIGH KOINL OF JUSTICE REALLY RUNS THE JUDICIARY IN UKRAINE.

AS YOU MENTIONED, EVERYTHING FROM THE APPOINTMENT OF JUDGES, THE ASSIGNMENT OF JUDGES, DISCIPLINING, DISMISSAL, SETTING THE STANDARDS.

IT'S 21 PEOPLE HEADED BY THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT.

AND THEY ARE NOMINATED BY DIFFERENT ENTITIES WITHIN THE COUNTRY.

TEN OF THE MEMBERS ARE NOMINATED BY THE CONGRESS OF JUDGES.

MEMBERS ARE NOMINATED BY THE PRESIDENT, BY THE LEGISLATURE, BY THE BAR ASSOCIATION, BY THE PROSECUTOR'S ASSOCIATION.

AND THIS ENTITY, IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO, BOTH THE RUNNING OF IT AND THE ETHICS OF IT.

AND SO WE WERE ASKED, WE WERE CHARGED WITH, I SHOULD SAY, DOING TWO THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, CONDUCTING A ONE-TIME EVALUATION OF ALL OF THE CURRENT SITTING MEMBERS TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY WERE-- MET THE CRITERIA OF PROFESSIONAL ETHICS AND INTEGRITY, WHICH I CAN TALK ABOUT A LITTLE MORE.

AND THEN TO INTERVIEW CANDIDATES WHO HAD BEEN RECOMMENDED FOR APPOINTMENT TO THE VACANCIES.

THERE WERE FOUR VACANCIES AT THE TIME.

THIS WAS IN NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR, WE HAD 36 APPLICANTS.

SO THERE WERE TWO THINGS.

BOTH INVOLVED WITH REALLY DOING BACK GROUND INVESTIGATIONS, DEEP BACKGROUND INVESTIGATIONS, THROUGH PROFESSIONAL ETHICS AND INTEGRITY OF THESE CANDIDATES.

WE HAD A BIT OF A SURPRISE WHEN WE ANNOUNCED WE WERE GOING TO START DOING THE BACKGROUND INVESTIGATIONS OF THE ACTUAL SITTING MEMBERS.

>> Braude: HOW DID THEY TAKE THAT, HOW DID THEY LIKE THAT?

>> 12 OF THEM RESIGNED RIGHT AWAY.

>> Braude: WAIT, IN ANTICIPATION OF BEING.

>> OH YEAH, YES.

>> Braude: WELL, GUILTY AS CHARGED.

YOU MIGHT NOT SAY THAT BUT I WOULD.

>> 12 RESIGNED IN FEBRUARY.

BUT WHEN WE ANNOUNCED WE WERE ABOUT TO COMMENCE DOING THE BACKGROUND INVESTIGATIONS OF THE SITTING MEMBERS.

THAT WAS, WELL, THAT CREATED A WHOLE NEW DYNAMIC, OF COURSE, BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE A HIGH COUNCIL OF JUSTICE THAT DOESN'T HAVE A QUORUM, THAT CANNOT OPERATE.

AND WE GOT ANOTHER 50 APPLICANTS FROM THE CONGRESS OF JUDGES TO FILL THOSE VACANCIES.

SO NOW WE HAVE LIKE 86 OR 90 APPLICANTS THAT WE-- .

>> Braude: ARE THE COURTS FUNCTIONING IN UKRAINE AS WE SPEAK OR NO?

>> THEY ARE FUNCTIONING.

AS BEST THEY CAN.

I MEAN FOR EXAMPLE THERE ARE 2000 JUDDISH VACANCIES IN THE UKRAINE.

>> Braude: OUT OF HOW MANY SEATS.

>> OUT OF SEVEN, OUT OF 7,000.

>> Braude: WOW.

>> SO A LOT OF COURTS HAVE, YOU KNOW, VERY, HAVE ONE JUDGE, THAT SHOULD HAVE SEVEN OR EIGHT JUDGES.

AND SO THEY ARE STRUGGLING.

THEY ARE WORKING HARD, MOST OF THEM.

STRILGING.

AND TRYING TO COME OUT OF THIS, HOPEFULLY WITH MORE RESPECT AND MORE RESOURCES.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW WHEN YOU SAY PEOPLE HAVE TO PASS AN ETHICAL TEST, JUST AS A HYPOTHETICAL, IF ONE OF THESE CANDIDATES, I DON'T KNOW, HAD, HAD A CASE AROUND INSURRECTION, AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT BEFORE THEM, AND HIS WIFE HAD SUPPORTED THE INSURRECTION, WOULD THAT PERSON BE QUALIFIED ETHICALLY TOO SIT ON THIS COUNCIL?

>> WELL, THE FACTS WOULD, OF COURSE, DEPENDING ON THE FACTS, THE FACT THAT SOMEONE SUPPORTS A PARTICULAR CAUSE, I DON'T THINK IS PETITIONED.

BUT IF SOMEONE WERE INVOLVED IN ORGANIZING THE CAUSE, THAT WOULD CERTAINLY MIGHT CREATE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST THAT WOULD REQUIRE SOME FORM OF DISCLOSURE AND REFUSAL.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW JUSTICE CORDY, I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME AND HAVE I NO EXPERTISE IN THESE AREAS, THESE KINDS OF CHANGES, WHILE TO PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MAY MAKE A TON OF SENSE, ARE NOT JUST INSTITUTIONAL CHANGES BUT REQUIRE A CULTURAL CHANGE.

A CHANGE IN MINDSET.

WE THOUGHT EVERY PART.

WORLD WANTED DEMOCRACY.

BUT SOME PEOPLE WEREN'T USED TO DEMOCRACY, AND WEREN'T SO CRAZY ABOUT IT.

DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT KIND OF THING OR IS THAT THE PRESIDENT'S MISSION.

I WHERE JUST WORRIED ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONAL ISSUES?

>> WELL, WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONAL ISSUES.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT CULTURE.

CULTURE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

AND I MUST SAY I HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY IMPRESSED WITH THE QUALITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH.

AND THE DETERMINATION, NOT ONLY OF THE LEGAL COMMUNITY BHU THE STAFF THAT WE HAVE.

AND THE JUDGES THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH.

THERE IS A HUGE COMMITMENT HERE.

AND IN SPITE OF THE WAR, I MEAN THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO THEM AND THEY'RE WORKING ON.

THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY, YOU WANT PEOPLE TO RESPECT AND TRUST THE JUDICIARY.

AND TO DO THAT I HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY ARE WORTHY OF RESPECT AND TRUST.

AND THIS IS PART OF OUR CHALLENGE.

>> Braude: SO EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD TO CANCEL A VISIT, I THINK IN FEBRUARY OR SOMETHING, IT WAS SCHEDULED, THE WORK GOES ON OF YOUR GROUP, THIS CONTINUES?

>> OH SURE.

>> Braude: OKAY.

ARE YOU WORRIED-- ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT BEING USED AT ALL?

CONSIDERING THE HISTORY AROUND THE JUDICIARY IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU COME PRETTY HIGHLY CREDENTIALED, AS DO YOUR COLLEAGUES.

I READ ABOUT ALL OF THEM.

DO YOU WORRY AT THE END.

DAY THAT YOU GETS USED BY PEOPLE IN HIGH PLACES THAT REALLY DON'T SUPPORT WHAT YOU ARE DOING?

>> NOT AT ALL.

I MEAN THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES IN MY WORK OVERSEAS, IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT BEING USED IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO REALLY THINK ABOUT.

HERE NOT AT ALL.

NOT AT ALL.

AND I FEEL-- THERE IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT MISSION, WE ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER.

AND IT HAS BEEN INTENSE.

I MEAN WE HAVE A FULL TIME STAVMENT I HAVE THREE ASSISTANTS, YOUNG LAWYERS IN KYIV, MAR SLALLING THE INFORMATION.

WE HAVE CIVIL SOCIETY AND PARTICULARLY THOSE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE EVOLVED IN FIGHTING CORRUPTION, TOTALLY SUPPORTIVE AT PROVIDING TREMENDOUS INFORMATION FOR US TO USE IN OUR INVESTIGATION.

THE NATIONAL ANTICORRUPTION BURROW IS PROVIDING US WITH REPORTS.

IT'S REALLY A VERY IMPRESSIVE EFFORT.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, THERE IS A FILM LATER TONIGHT THAT I HAVE GOTTEN TO SEE ALREADY ON FRONTLINE ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, WAR CRIMES THAT ARE JUST IMMENSE IN UKRAINE.

WILL UKRAINE'S OWN COURTS ADDRESS SOME OF THEM OR WILL THAT BE THE PROVINCE OF INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNALS WHEN THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER.

>> UKRAINIAN COURTS WILL ADDRESS SOME OF THEM.

AND INDEED HAVE ALREADY BEGUN TO DO SO.

HOPEFULLY THEY WILL NOT BE THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE ADDRESSING THOSE ACTS.

AND HOPEFULLY THERE WILL BE AN INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL AT SOME SORT BUT THE ANSWER IS YES, UKRAINIAN JUDICIARY IS ABSOLUTELY GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN LITIGATING AND OVERSEEING THE LITIGATION OF THOSE MATTERS.

>> Braude: JUSTICE CORDY, GREAT TO SEE YOU, I HOPE YOU WILL KEEP US APPRISED AND COME BACK AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR ROG RES.

>> WILL DO.

THANK YOU.

>> BE WELL, THANKS SO.

BY THE WAY, JUST AFTER WE SAID GOODBYE, JUSTICE CORDY MENTIONED HE GETS UP AT 3:00 EVERY DAY, TO DUP UP AT 3:00 TWO DAYS A WEEK TO HAVE A MEETING WITH THOSE PEOPLE IN KYIV.

EVERY PRESIDENT FACES A SERIES OF CHALLENGES, TRAGEDIES AND HISTORY-MAKING MOMENTS DURING THEIR TIME IN OFFICE, BUT FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA, SEVERAL OF THOSE CAME ALL AT ONCE IN JUST A TEN DAY STRETCH IN 2015.

IT STARTED WITH A SHOCKING ACT OF HATE, WHEN A WHITE SUPREMACIST EXECUTED EIGHT WORSHIPPERS AND THEIR PASTOR IN AN HISTORIC BLACK CHURCH IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA.

AND WAS FOLLOWED BY THIS POWERFUL MOMENT OF FORGIVENESS: >> YOU TOOK SOMETHING VERY PRECIOUS AWAY FROM ME.

I WOULD NEVER TALK TO HER EVER AGAIN.

I WILL NEVER TALK HER EVER AGAIN, I'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO HOLD HER EVER AGAIN.

BUT I FORGIVE YOU.

>> I FORGIVE YOU, MY FAMILY FORGIVES YOU.

BUT WE WOULD LIKE YOU TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO REPENT.

>> ALTHOUGH MY GRANDFATHER AND THE OTHER VICTIMS DIED AT THE HANDS OF HATE.

THIS IS PROOF.

EVERYONE'S PLEA FOR YOUR SOUL IS PROOF THAT THEY THEY LIVED AND LOVE AND THEIR LEGACIES WILL LIVE AND LOVE.

SO HATE WON'T WIN.

>> Braude: HOW TO DESCRIBE THAT OUTPOURING OF HUMANITY IN THE FACE OF SUCH HATE.

BUT AT A MEMORIAL SERVICE IN CHARLESTON JUST DAYS LATER, PRESIDENT OBAMA TRIED: >> AMAZING GRACE.

AMAZING GRACE HOW SWEET THE SOUND THAT SAVED A WRETCH LIKE ME >> Braude: CODY KEENAN WAS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE SPEECHWRITER FOR BARACK OBAMA THAT DAY.

AND WHEN TWO HUGE SUPREME COURT DECISIONS WERE HANDED DOWN THAT WEEK, ALL CHRONICLED IN HIS NEW BOOK, APTLY NAMED: "GRACE: PRESIDENT OBAMA AND TEN DAYS IN THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA."

CODY, CONGRATULATIONS, GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANKS, JIM, NICE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: YOU WROTE THAT SPEECH WITH BARACK OBAMA FOR THAT INCREDIBLE DAY, THAT EULOGY FOR PASTOR PINK NEEVMENT HE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE IT, NOR DID YOU WANT HIM TO GIVE THE SPEECH, WHY AND WHY?

>> WE HAD ALREADY WRITTEN A DOZEN EULOGIES AT THAT POINT AFTER MASS SHOOTING, NEWTOWN, TUCSON, THE WHOLE SLEW OF THEM.

IT WAS IN 2013 AFTER HE PUT HIS SECOND TERM AGENDA ON THE LINE AND TRIED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT GUNS.

AND REPUBLICAN BLOCKED BACKGROUND CHECK, WHERE HE SAID I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANY MORE.

IF WE DECIDE AS A COUNTRY WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS, THEN I DON'T WANT TO GO AND GIVE A EULOGY AND GIVE PEOPLE A REASON TO MOVE ON BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T MOVE ON.

I DIDN'T WANT TO WRITE IT EITHER.

WE LOOKED AT EACH OTHER, WE RAN OUT OF WORDS, BUT IT WAS THE CLIP OF THE FAMILIES AND THAT ACT OF GRACE THAT PUSHED US FORWARD.

>> Braude: HOW DOES ONE CHANGE, LIKE IF IT ISN'T SOMETHING LIKE THOSE INCREDIBLE ACTS OF GRACE, HOW DOES ONE CHANGE THE MIND OF A PRESIDENT WHEN HE IS DUG IN.

DID HE REALLY WANT TO NOT DO IT, OR DID HE WANT TO BE CONVINCED THAT HE SHOULD DO IT?

>> THAT SAY GOOD QUESTION.

BECAUSE WE OFTEN PUSH US IN CONVINCING HIM TO DO SOMETHING EASTERN WHEN HE ALREADY KNEW THE ANSWER BUT IT WHAT WHAT THOSE FAMILIES DID HE KNEW HE SHOULD.

AND HE KNEW, HE SAID ON THE MONDAY OF THAT WEEK THAT HE WANTED TO GO DOWN AND HUG THOSE FAMILIES AFTER THAT.

BUT HE STILL WASN'T CONVINCED THAT SPEAKING WOULD BITY RIGHT THING TO DO.

BUT IT WAS AGAIN WHAT THEY DID HE SAID FINE, LET'S TALK ABOUT RACE, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG, LET'S TALK ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE BUT WRAP IT ALL UP IN GRACE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW CODY, I THINK MOST OF US HAVE SEEN, THE HAND EDIT BY BARACK OBAMA BUT WHAT HE DID TO YOUR NEAR FINAL DRAFT, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WOULD CALL THAT EDITING.

YOU DESCRIBED IT AS LINES THROUGH WHOLE PAGE, THE LAST TWO PAGES OF THAT SPEECH.

WHY?

>> YEAH, WELL, HE WAS ALWAYS OUR CHIEF SPEECHWRITER, NOT ME.

COTAKE OUR DRAFTS TO A HIGHER PLACE.

BUT THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE SPEECHES WHERE WE REALLY NEEDED HIM TO BE INVOLVED AND HE HAS TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

THAT HE DIDN'T GIVE ME MUCH TO GO ON.

AND I DIDN'T GIVE HIM SOMETHING REALLY WORTHY OF THE MOMENT.

HE CALLED ME BACK INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AT 11 P.M.

THE NIGHT BEFORE THAT EULOGY AND LIKE HE SAID, HE CROSSED OUT THE BACK TWO PAGES AND HAD REWRITTEN THEM ENTIRELY IN ABOUT THREE YEARS USING THE LYRICS OF AMAZING GRACE AS A STRUCTURE.

WHICH IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS I KICKED MYSELF FOR NOT THINKING OF THAT BEFORE THAT.

HE IS A GOOD BOSS.

HE COULD HAVE JUST SAID YOU FAILED, GET OUT OF HERE.

HE COULD HAVE EXCISED ME FROM THE EQUATION COMPLETELY.

HE BROUGHT ME IN, TALKED TO ME FOR ABOUT HALF AN HOUR, MADE ME FELL BETTER AND SENT ME TO GO WORK ON THE SPEECH FOR ANOTHER FEW HOURS.

>> Braude: WHEN BARACK OBAMA WOULD SAY TO YOU A SPEECH WAS WAS REALLY WIN BHARKS DID IT MEAN, CODY.

>> IT WAS ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY THE WORD BUT, HE WOULD SAY THE SPEECH IS WELL WRITTEN BUT WE CAN DO BETTER.

AND THAT WAS ALWAYS THE CASE WITH THE BIG SPEECHES.

THIS WEEK WAS PACKED FULL, HE ALSO HAD TO SPEAK, IN THE BOOK, ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE SUPREME COURTS WOULD FIND A RIGHT TO MARRIAGE EQUALITY IN THE CONSTITUTION, THERE WAS A REAL CHANCE THAT THE SUPREME COURT WAS GOING TO TELL AMERICANS YOU COULDN'T GET MARRIED AND THEY RULED ON OBAMA CARE, THERE WAS A REAL CHANCE THEY WOULD TELL PEOPLE WORKING ONE, TWO JOBS YOU DON'T GET A RIGHT TO HEALTH INSURANCE.

WE WERE COOKING UP A LOT OF STUFF THAT WEEK.

>> Braude: ONE LAST THING, WERE YOU AMONG A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO KNEW HE WAS GOING TO SING OR AT LEAST THOUGHT HE WAS ST WAS LIKELY HE WAS GOING TO SING, CORRECT.

>> HE TOLD US THAT MORNING ON THE HELICOPTER, ABOUT FIVE OF US.

WE WERE ON MARINE ONE, HE SAID IF IT FEELS RIGHT I WOULD LIKE TO SING IT AND I KIND OF FAILED IN MY RESPONSE TO EVEN NOTIFY THE REST OF THE STAFF BACK AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

I FORGOT TO TELL ANYBODY.

SO THERE WERE ABOUT FIVE OF US WHO KNEW, EVEN THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF AT THE ARENA HAD NO IDEA.

>> Braude: I REMEMBER WHAT IT FEELS LIKE AS A CONSUMER OF THAT, THIS MOMENT, I'M SURE EVERYBODY WATCHING DOES AS WELL.

SO YOU MENTIONED THE SAME MORNING RIGHT BEFORE HE GOT ON MARINE ONE, HE HAD PROMISED TO MAKE, AFTER THE SAME SEX MARRIAGE DIGS CAME BOUN FROM THE SUPREME COURT, HERE SAY LITTLE OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> IT IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE COUNTLESS SMALL ACTS OF COURAGE OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ACROSS DECADES WHO STOOD UP, WHO CAME OUT, AND STAYED STRONG, AND CAME TO BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND WHO THEY WERE, AND SLOWLY MADE AN ENTIRE COUNTRY REALIZE THAT LOVE IS LOVE.

>> Braude: WHAT WOULD HE HAVE SAID IF THE DECISION HAD GONE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, CODY KEENAN.

>> YEAH, THAT WAS PRETTY DARK.

AND WE HAD TO WRITE THAT SPEECH BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH WAY THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING RULE AND YOU DON'T WANT TO KEEP THE COUNTRY WAITING FOR HOURS.

SO WE HAD SOME LEGAL BACKUPS PLANNED AND THERE WERE STILL GOING TO BE STATES WHERE IT WAS LEGAL THAT IS AS A TOUGH THING, A TOUGH THING TO SAY TO PEOPLE, THAT YOUR COUNTRY HAS DECIDED YOU ARE SHOW A SECRETARY CLASS CITIZEN, WHAT I WAS DREADING, WE HAD A WHOLE BUNCH OF GAY COLLEAGUES AND I WAS DREADING HAVING TO LOOK THEM IN THE EYE IF IT WENT OTHER WAY, WHAT THAT WAS PULLED OUT TAXER WAS ADDLIB AT THE END OF THE SPECH, HE KEPT GOING.

I THINK HE WAS GENUINELY MOVED THAT THE COUNTRY HAD COME SO FAR SO FAST ON AN ISSUE LIKE THAT.

>> Braude: THE RAINBOW LIGHTS I ASSUME WOULD HAVE HATCHED REGARDLESS S THAT RIGHT OR NO?

>> IT IS, YEAH, THERE WAS A DEBATE IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WEEK, WHAT DO WE DO IF THE SUPREME COURT SAYS NO.

AND THAT YOUNG MAN NAMED JEFF TILLER ON STAFF SAID IT IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT TO LIGHT IT UP AND REMIND EVERYBODY THAT YOU HAVE A PLACE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Braude: CODY KEENAN, WE LEARNED IN THE PROLOG OF YOUR BOOK, YOU ALSO WROTE THE SELMA SPEECH ON THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE MARCH FROM SELMA TO MONTGOMERY, OVER THE EDMOND PETTIS BRIDGE AND THE VIOLENCE THAT ENSMEUD DIRECTED AT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MARCHERS, SO YOU WERE CENTRAL TO THAT, YOU WERE CENTRAL TO THE SPEECH, EULOGY FOR PASTOR PINCKNEY.

RACE WAS THE CENTERPIECE OF SO MUCH OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID.

YOU ARE A WHITE GUY.

HOW HARD WAS THAT TO CONVEY THE THOUGHTS OF THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT IN GREAT PART ABOUT RACE IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN ARE YOU WHO ARE YOU?

>> THE HARDEST PART WAS DOING IT JUSTICE.

AND FORTUNATELY WE HAD HIM, AGAIN, ESPECIALLY IN THOSE MOMENT, HE WAS OUR CHIEF SPEECHWRITER.

I BEGIN THE BOOK WITH THE WRITING OF SELMA AS A PROLOG BECAUSE THAT REALLY SET UP THE THEE SIS FOR THESE TEN DAYS AND REALLY FOR POLITIC TTION.

IT WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO ADDED THE LINE THAT POLITICS WAS NOT JUST A CLASS OF ARMIES BUT A CLASS OF WHIPS AND WE ARE ALWAYS ENGAGED IN A CONTEST.

>> I WILL TELL YOU T WASN'T DURING THESE TEN DAYS BUT THERE IS ANOTHER MOMENT IN YOUR BOOK THAT I LOVED.

BECAUSE I THINK, I'M NOT SURE, I THINK WERE YOU WRITING A STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH WHICH I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE HOW SOMEBODY DEALS WITH THE ENDLESS THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE MENTIONED.

BUT WASN'T IT DURING A STATE OF THE UNION DRAFT YOU WERE DOING WHERE HE ASKED YOU IF YOU EVER LISTENED TO MILES DAVIS?

WAS THAT WHAT IT WAS?

>> YEAH.

>> WHY.

>> A STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS WILL OFTEN MAKE YOU FORGET GOOD SPEECH WRITING BECAUSE ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO CRAM EVERYTHING IN THERE.

AND I PULLED ME IN ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE SPEECH AND SAID LISTEN, THE ENTIRE SPEECH IS-- I NEED PARTS OF IT DOWN AT 8, 7, 6.

SO I WANT TO YOU GO HOME TONIGHT AND DON'T DO ANY WORK.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO MILES DAVIS AND I SAID WHY.

HE SAID THE THING ABOUT MILES DAVIS IS IT IS THE NOTES YOU DORCHT PLAY, THE SILENCES, THE SPACES BETWEEN.

SO I NEED SOME OF THAT IN THIS SPEECH.

MAKE THE SPEECH EMOTIONAL, SOME HIGH, LOW, QUIET MOMENTS BECAUSE THEY CAN SAY JUST AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER WORDS.

AND THAT WAS PRETTY COOL ADVISE.

>> Braude: THERE ARE ALSO PAUSES IN HIS AD-LIBBING YOU DESCRIBED A MINUTE AGO AFTER THE DECISION.

>> THAT IS FOR SURE.

>> Braude: EVERYTHING THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS A SPEAKER, I THINK WE WOULD AGREE, DONALD TRUMP WAS NOT.

CRUDE, CRASS, INTOLERANT, INARTICULATE, BULLYING AND ALL THOSE SORT OF THINGS.

BUT WHEN YOU WATCH AN AUDIENCE IN FRONT OF A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF AUDIENCE IN FRONT OF DONALD TRUMP, HE IS REMARKABLY EFFECTIVE AS A SPEAKSER TOO.

IS THERE A COMMON THREAD EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE VERY FEW IN TERMS OF THEIR IDEOLOGY?

>> THERE IS NOT.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP ALWAYS SPOKE DIRECTLY TO HIS BASE AND NOBODY ELSE.

THERE WAS NEVER ANY ATTEMPT TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS, BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.

SHOW PEOPLE WHAT OUR OBLIGATIONS ARE AS CITIZENS.

AND ANY TIME SOMEONE ASKS ME IN TODAY'S MODERN MEDIA ENVIRONMENT, DO PRESIDENT'S WORDS ACTUALLY STILL MATTER AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I SAY YEAH, JUST LOOK AT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

BECAUSE THOSE WORDS CAN ACTUALLY UNLEASH SOME PRETTY AWFUL STUFF.

AND TURN EACH OTHER AGAINST ONE ANOTHER AND MAKE THREATS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE A VERY REAL THING.

SO YEAH, PRESIDENT'S WORDS MATTER.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT BARACK OBAMA'S WORDS AND WHETHER THEY MATTER.

WE REMEMBER THE LEGENDARY LINE, ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

DID HIS SPEECHES HAVE CONSEQUENCES?

>> I DON'T THINK EVER HAD NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES.

YOU KNOW AT OUR BEST, LIKE WITH THE CHARLES TON EULOGY HE ALWAYS PRACTICED WHAT I CALL POLITICS OVER REDENGS.

HE GAVE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS WITHOUT LECTURING OR SCOLDING OR YOU KNOW BADGERING PEOPLE ABOUT THE CITIZENS OF THE PAST.

HE ESPECIALLY THIS CHARLESTON, HE WAS USING THE WORDS, MAYBE WE'VE BEEN BLIND TO THE FACT THAT RACISM STILL EXISTS IN SO MUCH OF OUR SOCIETY OR CONFEDERATE FLAG STILL CAUSES SO MUCH PAIN IN PEOPLE.

MAYBE WE SEE THAT, THAT COULD BE A MORE EFFECTIVE WAY, I PUT LETTERS IN THE BOOK TOO FOR PEOPLE THAT WROTE IN AFTER THAT SPEECH SAYING IT REALLY DID CHANGE THEIR MIND IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS TODAY BUT WE STILL APPROACHED EVERY SPEECH AS IF WE COULD.

>> Braude: WAS THIS T HARD FOR BARACK OBAMA THE PERSON TO SHOW THAT KIND OF-- YOU DIDN'T USE THE WORD RESTRAINT, BUT I WILL, THAT KIND OF RESTRAINT IN THE FACE OF SUCH HORROR SO MANY TIMES IN THE COUNTRY?

>> YEAH, AS A PRESIDENT YOU CAN'T ALWAYS LET LOOSE YOUR BASE EMOTIONS, YOU DO HAVE TO BE A LITTLE RESTRAINED.

NOT JUST BECAUSE YOUR WORDS CAN MOVE MARKETS AND ARMIES.

BUT THEY CAN PUSH PEOPLE AWAY.

HE WAS ALWAYS VERY AWARE OF THAT.

ONE OF THE MOST GRATIFYING THING I EVER READ WAS WHEN THE WRITER COATES WROTE AFTER EIGHT YEARS PRESIDENT OBAMA WALKED ON ICE AND NEVER FELL.

AND I FELT LIKE THAT WAS LIKE THE FIRST TIME I REALLY EXHALED AFTER ALL EIGHT YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU WORKED FOR TED KENNEDY, I THINK YOU STARTED AS AN ATTORNEY,-- INTERN IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY AND OBVIOUSLY A SPEECHWRITER FOR BARACK OBAMA.

FAIRLY LIKE-MINDED POLITICIANS, PRETTY SIMILAR WORLDVIEWS.

COULD YOU DO WHAT YOU DO FOR SOMEBODY WHOSE WORLDVIEW YOU DIDN'T SLAIR?

COULD YOU DO IT FOACTIVELY?

WOULD YOU DO IT?

>> YOU CAN, I DON'T STHI IT WOULD BE A LOT OF FUN.

AND I DON'T THINK I WOULD.

YOU KOW, WE JUST DON'T REALLY HAVE THAT TRADITION HERE.

WITH EVERY WHITE HOUSE THERE SAY BIG CHANGE IN SPEECH WRITING.

I KNOW A SPEECHWRITER NUMBER TEN DOWNING STREET WHO I THINK SON HIS 7th OR 8th PRIME MINISTER NOW, JUST DIFFERENT.

HE HAS BEEN THERE FOR LIKE 15 YEARS.

I JUST DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE AS MUCH FUN.

I WAS VERY LUCKY TO HAVE TWO BOSSES WHO NOT JUST I AGREED WITH ON MOST OF THE ISSUES BUT WHO REALLY TAUGHT ME WHAT POLITICS WAS ALL ABOUT.

AND THAT STARTED BY WORKING FOR TED KENNEDY HERE IN BOSTON TZ WELL, CODY KEENAN, THE BOOK IS TERRIFIC.

GREAT INCITE INTO NOT JUST SPEECH WRITING BUT INTO A PRESIDENT.

AND I REALLY LOVED IT.

SO THANKS SO MUCH AND ST REALLY GOOD TO MEET YOU.

>> THANK YOU JIM.

PRIVILEGED.

>> Braude: THE BOOK AGAIN IS GRACE: PRESIDENT OBAMA AND TEN DAYS IN THE BATTLE FOR MARK.

AND TOMORROW YOU CAN CATCH HIM AT THE EDWARD KENNEDY INSTITUTE AT 7:00, TALKING ABOUT HIS BOOK WITH FORMER SENATOR MO COWAN.

THE EVENT IS FREE, BUT YOU CAN REGISTER FOR TICKETS AT EMKINSTITUTE.ORG.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org