>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WITH BOSTON OFFICIALS STARTING TO MOVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE PLACE MANY CALL HOME PLACE MANY CALL HOME IN TENTS, ALONG THE AREA IN AS MASS AND CASS, IS THIS THE RIGHT MOVE?

AND WILL PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT THE CRISIS WHEN THE MAYOR'S RACE IS OVER?

I'M JOINED BY THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE DIMOCK CENTER, WHICH PROVIDES PHYSICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT TO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME THROUGH THE AREA, ALONG WITH THE RESIDENT AT ONE OF THE CENTER'S FACILITIES, WHO'S RECOVERING FROM SUBSTANCE ABUSE DISORDER.

THE, LATER, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND RESTAURANTEUR TONY MAWS ON HIS DECISION TO SELL HIS LEGENDARY CRAIGIE ON MAIN IN CAMBRIDGE AND HIS CONCERNS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOE.

AND, FINALLY, ANOTHER MAN WHO THE PANDEMIC PROMPTED TO MAKE MAJOR WORK AND LIFE CHANGES, MOVING FROM BEHIND A COMPUTER TO USING HIS HANDS AND GETTING A LITTLE DIRTY.

THE LATEST INSTALLMENT OF THE GBH NEWS SERIES, "THE BIG QUIT."

♪♪ >> Braude: THE DEBATES HAVE GOTTEN MORE URGENT OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS AS THE ENCAMPMENT AT THE AREA OF BOSTON KNOWN AS MASS AND CASS HAS GROWN.

HOW TO BEST ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS OF HOMELESSNESS AND ADDICTION AT THE ROOT.

BUT FOR THE FIRST TIME, ACTING MAYOR KIM JANEY IS TAKING SIGNIFICANT ACTION.

ON HER ORDER, CITY WORKERS STARTED GIVING PEOPLE NOTICE YESTERDAY THAT THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO STAY THERE MUCH LONGER AFTER JANEY DECLARED THE SITUATION A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS LAST WEEK.

>> TENTS ARE NOT APPROPRIATE FOR HOUSING.

THEY LACK CLEAN WATER AND ADEQUATE HYGIENE FACILITIES.

EVEN MORE CONCERNING, THESE TENTS HAVE BECOME THE SITE OF INFECTION DISEASES, SEXUAL ASSAULTS, HUMAN TRAFFICKING, POTENTIAL OVERDOSES, AND VIOLENCE.

WE CANNOT LET OUR VULNERABLE RESIDENTS CONTINUE TO SUFFER IN THESE ENCAMPMENTS.

>> Braude: CITY LEADERS HAVEN'T GIVEN A TIMELINE FOR THE CLEANUP PROCESS, AND AS OF TODAY, THE MAJORITY OF THE ENCAMPMENT STILL REMAINS BUT THE PLAN IS TO GET EVERYONE OUT.

THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT HOUSING ALTERNATIVES AND OPTIONS FOR MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION TREATMENT.

BUT WILL THIS APPROACH SUCCEED WHEN SO MANY OTHERS HAVE FAILED?

I'M JOINED NOW BY DR. CHARLES ANDERSON, THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE DIMOCK CENTER, WHICH IS BASED IN ROXBURY AND PROVIDES PHYSICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH CARE TO PEOPLE FROM UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES, MORE THAN 19,000 A YEAR.

THAT INCLUDES CRAIG HEARD, WHO'S SPENT THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS AT THE JOHN FLOWERS RECOVERY HOME, ONE OF THE CENTER'S RESIDENTIAL PROGRAMS.

>> Braude: CRAIG AND DR. ANDERSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF CANDIDATE AND MEDIA ATTENTION TO THIS CRISIS NOW.

WILL PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT THIS WHEN THE SPOTLIGHT IS NO LONGER ON IT?

THE BRIDGE CLOSED SEVEN YEARS AGO.

>> MY HOPE IS THE SPOTLIGHT WILL REMAIN ON IT.

I THINK WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE IN THE MIDST OF THIS PANDEMIC, WHICH IS STILL ONGOING, WE UNDERSTAND EVEN MORE CLEARLY HOW THESE ISSUES AFFECT EVERYONE.

IT AFFECTS OUR WHOLE SOCIETY, AFFECTS OUR WHOLE COMMUNITY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT AFFECTS THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE ENTANGLED IN THIS AND ARE SO VULNERABLE.

I THINK IT WILL BE HARD FOR US TO FORGET THESE IMAGES WE SEE ON MASS AND CASS.

I FEEL WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE WE'RE GETTING TO THIS TYPE OF POLITICAL WILL THAT IS REQUIRED TO ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, STAYING WITH YOU FOR ONE SECOND, THERE IS A STORY BY SHIRLEY YOUNG AT THE GLOBE, IN WHICH SHE SAYS, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT US IF WE CAN'T USE THE HELP WE ALREADY OFFER TO DIMINISH THIS SUFFERING.

REFERENCING THE BEDS AT YOUR FACILITY AND OTHER PLACES.

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO SHIRLEY'S QUESTION?

>> I THINK THE ANSWER TO SHIRLEY'S QUESTION IS PRETTY CLEAR: THIS IS A COMPLEX PROBLEM THAT REQUIRES COMPLEX SOLUTIONS.

SOLUTIONS ARE ABOUT AN ACTIVE PROCESS, NOT RUSHING TO AN ANSWER.

HOW DO WE TAKE THIS AND GET ALL OF THE KEY PARTIES INVOLVED, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY LIVING THIS EXPERIENCE, AND REALLY ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES TOGETHER AND COLLABORATE TO REALLY DRIVE REAL SOLUTIONS ONCE AND FOR UL.

ALL.

>> Braude: CRAIG, I'M TOLD YOU HAVEN'T LIVED AT MASS AND CASS, BUT I KNOW YOU VISITED A NUMBER OF TIMES.

IN THAT SAME PIECE BY SHIRLEY, A SISTER OF A RESIDENT SAYS RECOVERY IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT, IT IS FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT.

WHY DOESN'T EVERYBODY THERE WANT IT?

>> THE REASON WHY EVERYBODY DOESN'T WANT IT IS BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE PAIN AND THE SUFFERING THEY PUT THEMSELVES THROUGH -- IT'S HARD TO GET OUT OF THAT SITUATION.

AND YOU'RE SO STUCK IN THAT SITUATION.

>> Braude: MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU'VE BEEN DEALING WITH ISSUES OF ADDICTION FOR TWO-THIRDS OF YOUR LIFE, SINCE YOU WERE 20 YEARS OLD.

HAVE MADE ATTEMPTS TO GET OUT OF THIS, TO ADDRESS THIS, AND THEY'VE FAILED.

WHY IS THIS TIME DIFFERENT?

WHAT WAS THE THING THAT CAUSED YOU TO SAY THIS TIME IS REAL, AND SO FAR, APPARENTLY, IT HAS WORKED?

WHAT WAS IT?

>> UM, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO EXCUSE ME FOR A MINUTE, BUT I GET EMOTIONAL WHEN I COME TO THIS POINT OF TALKING ABOUT THIS RECOVERY BECAUSE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

BECAUSE I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT MY LIFE, AND I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT I CAN BE HERE TODAY AND BE GONE TOMORROW.

AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT I HAVE TO LIVE WITHOUT THIS AND KEEP PUSHING BECAUSE IT TOOK ME THROUGH A LOT OF CHANGES, CAUSED ME TO BE IN PRISON.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF CONSEQUENCES, LIVING HOMELESS, SLEEPING CAN IMAGINE WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

I KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGHOUT THERE.

THERE IS A LOT OF PAIN.

THERE IS A LOT OF LOSS OF HOPE.

NO SENSE OF DIRECTION.

IT IS JUST HOPELESS.

AND WE NEED A UNITY.

WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER AS PEOPLE AND TRY TO GO REACH OUT TO THESE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: CRAIG, CAN THESE PEOPLE, AS YOU DESCRIBED THEM, OR INDIVIDUALS, CAN THEY BE TALKED TO PROGRAMS, LIKE WHAT EXISTS AT THE DIMOCK, OR DO THEY HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION THEMSELVES?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION THEMSELVES.

THE FIRST THING YOU DO WHEN YOU WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, YOU'VE GOT A CHANCE AND YOU'VE GOT A CHOICE.

AND ONCE YOU MAKE THAT CHOICE AND MAKE YOU'RE MIND UP, YOU JUST HAVE TO PUSH FORWARD.

YOU CAN'T GIVE UP.

IT'S HARD FOR A PERSON TO BE IN ADDICTION FOR OVER 40 YEARS, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE ME.

IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO BE WHERE I AM TODAY.

IT TOOK A LONG TIME.

AND I FINALLY WOKE UP WHEN I FOUND MYSELF IN THE NATIONAL STREET JAIL.

AND MY EYES WAS OPEN.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU BELIEVE IN A HIGHER POWER, BUT I HAVE A HIGHER POWER OF MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OPENED MY EYES AND SAID, YOU'VE GOT A CHOICE: EITHER YOU WANT TO STAY IN HERE OR LIVE OUT THERE.

>> Braude: DR. ANDERSON, AS I'M SURE YOU AND CRAIG NOW, THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN CENTER STAGE IN THE MAYORAL DEBATE, WHICH I THINK IS NOTHING BUT GOOD IN TERMS OF THE ATTENTION BEING FOCUSED.

FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T SIGH SEE THE FINAL DEBATE, I WANT TO PLAY TO GIVE A FEEL FOR HOW INTENSE THIS DISCUSSION HAS BEEN.

HERE ARE COUNCILORS WU AND ESSAIBI GEORGE.

>> I HAVE A MESSAGE FOR MICHELLE.

BECAUSE SHE WAS STUCK IN CONVERSATION, SHE DOESN'T TRULY UNDERSTAND THE CRISIS THAT IS MASS AND CASS.

>> I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE COUNCILOR'S CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS.

EVERY CONVERSATION I HAVE IS ABOUT TAKING URGENT ACTION.

I WILL FIGHT FOR WHAT OUR RESIDENTS NEED AND DESERVE.

>> Braude: DR. ANDERSON, IT SEEMS TO ME REMOVAL IS NOT A SOLUTION; IT IS A TRANSITION.

HAVE YOU HEARD IN THIS DEBATE FROM THE CANDIDATES OR IN THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, HAVE YOU HEARD SOLUTIONS THAT YOU THINK CAN GET US FROM HERE TO THERE?

>> I THINK THE THING ABOUT SOLUTIONS, I GO BACK TO THIS KEY POINT, RIGHT?

IT IS ABOUT HOW WE ACTUALLY WRESTLE WITH THESE THINGS AND UNTIE THE PROBLEM TOGETHER.

ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN BE PART OF THE ACTUAL EVENTUAL SOLVING OF THIS COMPLEX PROBLEM.

YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT IS VERY CLEAR IS THAT THIS IS BEYOND A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

THIS IS A HUMAN SUFFERING CRISIS.

AND I THINK IT REQUIRES US TO HAVE THE TYPE OF HEADSET THAT SAYS, LOOK, LET'S MAKE SURE, FIRST, WE'RE ADDRESSING HUMAN SUFFERING.

AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE MORE SUFFERING THAN BEING IN THE COLD, OUTSIDE IN A TENT, WITHOUT ACCESS TO BASIC NECESSITIES, IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU'RE PREYED ON.

THAT IS A CONDITION OF BASIC HUMAN SUFFERING.

SO I THINK ANYTHING THAT WE DO THAT IS TARGETED AT THAT FIRST MAKES GOOD SENSE.

>> Braude: AND, DOCTOR, IF IT TURNS OUT THAT INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE THERE ARE NOT VOLUNTARILY WILLING TO LEAVE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, SHOULD THEY BE INVOLUNTARILY FORCIBLY REMOVED?

>> WELL, THAT GETS TO CRAIG'S POINT, YOUR POINT ABOUT HOW MUCH OF THIS REQUIRES AN INDIVIDUAL SAYING I'M READY.

AND HERE IS THE CHALLENGE, WHEN WE LOOK AL THIS FROM PURE HUMAN SUFFERING, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER 23 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES SUFFER WITH SOME FORM OF ALCOHOL OR DRUG ADDICTION.

OF THOSE 23 MILLION, ONLY 10% ACTUALLY SEEK TREATMENT AND RECEIVE TREATMENT.

WHAT THAT TELLS YOU IS THERE 90% -- NINE OUT OF TEN PEOPLE OUT THERE ARE NOT READY TO GO RIGHT INTO TREATMENT.

SO THE QUESTION IS: WHAT ELSE DO WE OFFER THEM?

AND ARE WERE YOU THINKING THROUGH THE RANGE OF SOLUTIONS, ARE WE WORKING TOGETHER, TO REALLY BE CREATIVE ENOUGH TO MEET THOSE BASIC NEEDS IN A WAY THAT SOMEONE DOES UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I NEED DO.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, AS I'M SURE YOU KNOW, RHODE ISLAND IS ABOUT TO BECOME THE FIRST STATE WITH THE PILOT OF THE SAFE INJECTION SITE, I'M NOT SUGGESTING IT IS A SOLUTION, BUT PROPONENTS ARGUE IT KEEPS PEOPLE ALIVE UNTIL HOPEFULLY A SOLUTION CAN BE FOUND -- DO YOU SUPPORT THAT KIND OF INTERIM STEP?

>> MY THING IS THIS: AS WE'RE SOLVING AND WORKING TOWARDS UNTYING THIS PROBLEM, WE HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT EACH ONE OF US BRINGS TO THE TABLE.

WHAT WE DO AT THE DIMOCK CENTER IS ABOUT THOSE 10% WHO ARE SAYING I'M READY.

AND WE MAKE SURE WE DO THAT IN AN EXCEPTIONAL WAY.

SO WE ARE SERVING A THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR -- OVER A THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR, I SHOULD SAY, WHO ARE SAYING, I'M READY AND WE'RE MAKING SURE THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE TYPE OF STEPS.

IT IS NOT JUST WHEN WE THINK ABOUT SUBSTANCE ABUSE DISORDER AND THOSE STEPS, WE'RE GETTING THEM PLUGGED INTO INSURANCE, WE'RE GETTING THEM PLUGGED INTO PRIMARY CARE, WE'RE RECONNECTING THEM WITH THEIR CHILDREN, WER WE'RE GETTING THEY THEM PLUGGED INTO DENTAL CARE AND EYE CARE.

THEY CAN BE ON OUR CAMPUS FOR UP TO A YEAR WHILE WE'RE HELPING THEM TRANSFORM THEIR LIVES.

THAT IS WHAT WE DO.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WILL FOCUS ON THE OTHER ASPECTS OF THIS VERY COMPLEX PROBLEM.

AND I DON'T NEGATE ANY OF THOSE AS BEING PART OF THE SOLUTION.

>> Braude: IF COUNCILORS ESSAIBI GEORGE AND WU ARE LISTENING, CRAIG, WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND TO THEM?

YOU'VE BEEN ON THE GROUND, AND WHAT SHOULD LEADERS BE DOING?

>> THEY SHOULD COME TOGETHER AS A UNITY TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT TO THE OUTREACH AND BE ABLE TO ENCOURAGE THESE PEOPLE, BE ABLE TO TALK TO THEM.

AND SOMETIMES IT TAKES MUCH MORE THAN THAT TO TRY TO GET THROUGH TO THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY'RE SO CAUGHT UP OUT THERE AND THEY'RE CONFUSED.

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF SUPPORT.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO REACH OUT TO THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY TOO FAR GONE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE ASKED YOU, CRAIG, FIRST, BEFORE I ASKED ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD SAY TO THE LEADERS, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY FROM MASS AND CASS WHO IS JUST DOUBTING AND DOESN'T FEEL HOPE, DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A WAY OUT OF THIS MISERY?

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY TO THEM THAT YOU HAVE A CHANCE.

AS LONG AS YOU'VE GOT BREATH IN YOUR BODY, YOU'VE GOT A CHANCE.

AND THERE IS A WAY OUT.

THERE IS A WAY OUT OF THIS SITUATION.

AND IT'S ONLY -- YOU CAN ONLY JUST ENCOURAGE THEM, GIVE THEM SOME HOPE, YOU KNOW?

AND REACH OUT TO THEM.

WHATEVER NEEDS THEY HAVE, REACH OUT TO THEM.

DO WHATEVER YOU CAN.

GIVE BACK WHAT WAS FREELY GIRLFRIEND TOGIVEN TO ME.

I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GO DOWN THERE ALONE -- I WOULD HAVE TO COME AS A UNITY.

I WOULD NEED ALL OF THE SUPPORT I CAN GET TO DO THAT.

>> Braude: DR. ANDERSON, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THESE PEOPLE?

>> WHEN I LOOK AT THESE THINGS, IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE THOSE BARRIERS.

THE LITERATURE WOULD TELL US -- AND SOME OF IT MAKES LOGICAL SENSE, AND YOU SEE IT NOT JUST FOR US AS A COMMUNITY AND A SOCIETY TRYING TO ADDRESS THIS, EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE TRIED TO ADDRESS THIS, AND THEY'LL TELL YOU THE NUMBER ONE BARRIER IS DENIAL.

SO YOU'VE GOT TO HELP WITH THAT FEELING OF I'VE GOT THIS, I'M FINE LIVING THE WAY I'M LIVING.

SO YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE IN OUR SOLUTIONS WE'RE BUILDING SOMETHING THAT ADDRESSES THAT DENIAL.

THE NEXT ONE IS SHAME, RIGHT?

WE'VE GOT TO COME AT THIS FROM A PLACE THAT UNDERSTANDS THAT HUMAN FEELING OF SHAME, RIGHT?

AND THE OTHER ONE IS FEAR, AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST THE FEAR OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME IN REHAB, BUT IT IS ALSO THAT FEAR THAT AS I GET BETTER AND I AM NOW ABLE TO START TO REMEMBER THE THINGS THAT PUT ME IN THIS CONDITION IN THE FIRST PLACE, ARE THERE SYSTEMS IN PLACE FROM A MENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVE TO HELP ME DEAL WITH THAT?

SO I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS THAT ARE CLEAR BARRIERS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE 90% TO GET MORE OF THEM INTO THE 10%.

>> Braude: CRAIG, IT IS GREAT TO MEET YOU, AND DOCTOR, YOU, TOO, I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, GBH NEWS HAS BEEN DRINKING YOU STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING BIG CHANGES TO THEIR LIVES, AS A RESULT OF THE PANDEMIC, IN OUR NEW SERIES: "THE BIG QUIT."

MOST ARE EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN RE-EVALUATING HOW THEY WANT TO LIVE AND WHAT MAKES THEM HAPPY.

AND WHILE SOME MAY THINK THE BEST OF THE BEST IN THEIR INDUSTRIES ARE IMMUNE TO ALL OF THIS, IT'S TIME TO THINK AGAIN.

BECAUSE AMONG THOSE TAKING A LONG, HARD LOOK AT THE CAREER IN WHICH HE'S SPENT DECADES WORKING HIS WAY TO THE TOP IS THE MAN WHO FIRST BROUGHT US CRAIGIE STREET BISTRO, WHICH WENT ON TO BECOME CRAIGIE ON MAIN, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF TONY MAWS.

NEARLY TWO MONTHS AGO HE CLOSED UP FOR WHAT HE THEN CALLED A "PAUSE, TO THINK ABOUT WHAT'S NEXT AND SPEND SOME MUCH-NEEDED TIME WITH OUR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS."

AND NOW ONE OF MY FAVORITE RESTAURANTS IS UP FOR SALE FOR A HALF MILLION DOLLARS.

IF ONLY MY CULINARY SKILLS EXTENDED BEHIND BOILING WATER THE, I MIGHT CONSIDER TRYING TO GET ON THAT MYSELF.

TONY MAWS JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: HEY, TONY.

>> YOU'RE TOO SMART TO TRY YOUR HAND AT THIS THING.

>> Braude: THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK.

SO CRAIGIE ON MAIN IS NO MORE.

WHY?

>> WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I WISH THERE WAS ONE SIMPLE ANSWER BECAUSE I WOULD BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY IT TO MYSELF.

LIKE YOU SAID, IT HAS BEEN DECADES IN THE MAKING.

THE ENTITY OF CRAIGIE IS ALMOST 20 YEARS OLD AT THIS POINT.

I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE DIFFERENT BULLET POINTS WE COULD TALK ABOUT.

SOME ARE PERSONAL, TIME AND REFLECTION, AND THINKING ABOUT WAS WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME AT THIS POINT IN MY LIFE, WITH MY FAMILY AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THINK A LOT OF US IN ALL INDUSTRIES ARE TAKING A GOOD, HARD LOOK AT WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

THERE ARE SOME NUTS AND BOLTS OF THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY THAT HAVE BEEN -- IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A CHALLENGING THING, BUT WE SAW THINGS EVEN PRE-COVID THAT WERE MAKING THE FORMULA, I THINK COMPLICATED WOULD BE THE PLIGHT WORD.

WE'VE GOT A LABOR ISSUE THAT WE READ ABOUT.

WE HAVE A HOUSING ISSUE WE READ ABOUT.

WE HAVE A TRANSPORTATION ISSUE.

PEOPLE NEED TO GET TO WORK AND RESTAURANT HOURS ARE TOUGH.

BOSTON IS A REALLY TRICKY CITY RIGHT NOW TO LIVE IN.

>> Braude: IT SORT OF SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE INTIMATING -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG -- THAT THE BUSINESS COULD HAVE SURVIVED, BUT YOU COULDN'T HAVE SURVIVED IN IT THE WAY IT IS.

IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

>> I THINK YOU SUMMED IT UP PERFECTLY, JIM.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT -- THERE ARE RESTAURANTS THAT HAVE HAD -- WE'VE ALL HAD A REALLY CHALLENGING TIME, AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAD FINANCIAL WOES THAT HAD THEM CLOSE THEIR DOORS.

THE WAY WE SOLVED THAT PROBLEM, UNFORTUNATELY LIKE A LOT OF PLACES, WE HAD TO FURLOUGH SOME PEOPLE.

WE WORKED AROUND THE CLOCK, AND THAT'S HOW WE MADE IT HAPPEN.

FINANCIALLY THAT WASN'T THE ISSUE FOR US, BUT THE WAY WE HAD TO DO BUSINESS, THE AMOUNT THAT WE HAD TO ASK OF OURSELVES AND OUR TEAMS TO BE ABLE TO PULL IT OFF DAY IN AND DAY OUT WAS JUST -- PEOPLE USE THE WORD SUSTAINABLE, AND SOMETIMES I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS AT THIS POINT, BUT PUT IT THIS WAY: WE ALL HIT A WALL AND IT WASN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE THAT WAY.

AND I DON'T HAVE A MAGIC WAND OR A MAGIC EIGHT BALL TO LOOK INTO THE FUTURE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT IMMEDIATELY IS GOING TO GET SOLVED?

AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS.

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU KNOW A TON OF YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE INDUSTRY, AND I'M GUESSING THAT A LOT OF THEM ARE, EVEN IF THEY HAVEN'T MADE THE SAME MOVE YOU HAVE, THEY'RE FEELING WHAT YOU'RE FEELING.

IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT IS.

I AM IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION WITH MY DEAR FRIENDS AND PEERS, AND, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN VERSION OF THE STORY.

BUT IT'S A COMPLICATED ONE, AND EVERYONE IS FEELING IT IN THEIR OWN WAY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO SEIZE ON SOMETHING YOU SAID A MINUTE AGO, TONY -- I'M PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, THIS IS NOT A PANDEMIC CASUALTY.

I WAS READING AN INTERVIEW WITH YOU IN 2019, BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, YOU SAID ALMOST THE SAME THING, YOU TALKED ABOUT LABOR ISSUES.

THE MILLENNIALS DON'T WANT TO WORK 12 HOURS A DAY FOR 10 YEARS TO FIND THEIR PLACE.

YOU SAID THAT PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION WAS AWFUL, THAT HOUSING WAS UNAFFORDABLE.

SO PANDEMIC OR NO, THESE ARE SYMPTOMS OF A REAL DISEASE THAT IT SEEMS TO ME THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY AND BEYOND HAVE TO SOLVE FOR YOUR PEERS TO SURVIVE, NO?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, LOOK, WE HAVE BUILT -- WE'VE ALL SEEN THE GROWTH IN THE METROPOLITAN BOSTON AREA, RETAIL IS PRETTY MUCH DEAD.

SO ON THE FIRST FLOORS EVERYONE WANTED TO PUT IN RESTAURANTS.

SO WE'VE GOT MORE RESTAURANTS, WHICH MEANS MOR LABOR.

MORE LABOR.

THE HOUSING MARKET IS CRAZY.

YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE IN CAMBRIDGE UNLESS YOU'RE MAKING SIX FIGURES, AND SO THEY HAVE TO COME FROM SOME PLACE ELSE.

AND TRANSPORTATION IS AWFUL.

SOME BUSINESSES HAVE DIFFERENT MODELS WHERE THEY CAN FIGURE IT OUT.

A PLACE LIKE CRAIGIE ON MAIN, THAT REQUIRED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF STAFF TO PULL OFF WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO, IT BECAME NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO THAT.

WE LOOKED AT OURSELVES IN THE MIRROR AND THOUGHT HARD AND LONG ABOUT WAYS WE COULD DO IT DIFFERENTLY.

WHAT PEOPLE EXPECTED OUT OF CRAIGIE ON MAIN, I JUST NEVER COULD FIND A FORMULA THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO WORK.

AND EVEN THINGS WE THOUGHT ABOUT DOING DIFFERENTLY, I THINK IT WAS CLEAR TO US -- LOOK, PARTLY WE JUST GOT BURNED OUT.

>> Braude: BUT IT SEEMS TO ME, FROM READING YOUR THOUGHTS FROM 2019 AND FROM TALKING TO YOU TONIGHT, THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF DOING DIFFERENTLY THAT YOU OR YOUR COLLEAGUES CAN DO TO SOLVE THE LARGER PROBLEMS.

IT SEEMS THIS IS YET ANOTHER CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE GOVERNMENT HAS GOT TO DO MORE THAN JUST BAIL RESTAURANTS OUT OF A CRISIS, BUT SORT OF FOCUS ON THE BIGGER PICTURE, DON'T THEY?

>> YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THERE ARE A NEW CITIES IN THE NATION THAT ARE FEELING THIS.

BOSTON, OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS OUR HOME, BUT WE'RE SEEING SIMILAR THINGS WITH OUR FRIENDS IN SEATTLE AND SAN FRANCISCO, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE PLACES WHERE THE URBAN REAL ESTATE HAS BECOME SO CASEY.

I DON'TCRAZY.I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SOLUTION IS IF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T WILLING TO TACKLE THE PROBLEM.

WE'VE BEEN READING ABOUT THE M.T.A.

ISSUES FOR YEARS.

THE HOUSING MARKET -- IT IS GREAT IF YOUR A LANDLORD, BUT NOT IF YOU'RE A SERVICE-LEVEL EMPLOYEE WHO WANTS TO LIVE CLOSE TO THEIR WORK.

>> Braude: I KNOW HOW SINCERE A PERSON YOU ARE, BUT WHEN SOMEONE IS AS GOOD AS YOU ARE -- I THINK THIS QUOTE WAS IN THE "GLOBE," AS MUCH AS I LOVE COOKING FOR PEOPLE, YOU SAID, I DON'T HAVE TO DO IT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

I BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY IT, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO SAY TO YOURSELF, I'M REALLY GOOD AT THIS.

PEOPLE REALLY LIKE WHAT I DO.

I'VE HEARD YOU SAY A MILLION TIMES IN PERSON AND IN PRINT, I LOVE COOKING FOR PEOPLE.

SO HOW DO YOU DO THIS?

>> THIS IS THE QUESTION I'M ASKING MYSELF RIGHT NOW.

IT IS FUNNY, I EVEN -- I WAS ON A WALK WITH MY SON, HE IS 13 YEARS OLD, AND I ASKED HIM -- I'M LOOKING FOR ANSWERS ANYWHERE.

COOKING IS IN MY BONES.

COOKING IS ABSOLUTELY IN MY BONES.

AND THE THOUGHT OF NOT MAKING PEOPLE HAPPY THROUGH FOOD IS -- I'M NOT -- I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER, AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO GET USED TO THAT ANY TIME SOON.

SO I'M NOT PREPARED TO SAY THAT I'M DONE, BUT I AM PREPARED TO SAY IT IS NOT WORTH CAUSING IRREPARABLE HARM TO EITHER MYSELF OR MY TEAM.

AND WE WERE ALL FEELING IT EMOTIONALLY, MENTALLY, AND PHYSICALLY.

SO AT SOME POINT YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO STEP BACK.

I SINCERELY HOPE THERE IS A WAY THAT I CAN FIND A WAY TO, YOU KNOW, GET BEHIND A STOVE IN SOME WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

I JUST THINK THAT THE CRAIGIE ON MAIN AS WE ALL KNEW IT AND LOVED, THAT PART IS NOT COMING BACK, YOU KNOW?

IT SADDENS ME TO SAY THAT BECAUSE WE HAD A REALLY GREAT RUN.

WE WERE REALLY FORTUNATE.

WE MADE SOME PEOPLE HAPPY, AND I KNOW IT IS GOING TO BE MISSED.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M 51 YEARS OLD, AND I'VE GOT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS BEST FOR THOSE WHO ALSO HAVE BEEN THE MOST SUPPORTIVE TO ME.

THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE BENT A LOT OVER THE YEARS TO ENABLE ME TO DO WHAT I DO.

AND NOW IT IS TIME TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE HAPPY, TOO.

>> Braude: I ADMIRE YOU FOR BEING ABLE TO MAKE SUCH A DECISION, TONY.

I HOPE YOU ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A STOVE SOME TIME SOON.

BEST OF LUCK IN THE FUTURE.

>> I PROMISE YOU YOU'LL BE EATING SOME FOOD THAT I COOKED.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: OF COURSE, PEOPLE IN ALL DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES ARE RE-EVALUATING, AS WE MENTIONED BEFORE, ABANDONING THE JOBS THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE STUCK IN UP UNTIL THE PANDEMIC, TO DO INSTEAD WHAT THEY REALLY LOVE.

HERE'S ANOTHER SUCH STORY FROM GBH NEWS' "THE BIG QUIT" SERIES.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY COOL WHEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, MY BIKE MECHANIC IS WORKING ON MY BIKE NOW, YOU KNOW, AND I'LL BE GETTING IT BACK NEXT WEEK.

SO I DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALL A BIKE MECHANIC.

I AM BRIAN JOHNSTON.

I USED TO BE AN I USED TO BE AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER FOR 41 YEARS, IN THE SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY.

I ALWAYS TINKERED WITH BICYCLES SINCE I WAS 10 YEARS OLD.

IT'S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORK AT A YOUNG AGE, WAS PART OF IT.

IN THE JOB THAT I DID, THE MOST JOY WAS SOLVING ISSUES THAT COSTUMERS HAD THAT WERE DIFFICULT.

THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME.

HEY, IT'S BEEN THREE WEEKS.

WE HAVEN'T FINISHED FIXING THIS PROBLEM.

FLY TO SINGAPORE.

FLY TO KOREA.

FLY TO OREGON.

BE ON SITE AND FIX THE ISSUE.

I LIKED GOING INTO DIFFERENT LABS, DIFFERENT CULTURES.

I'VE MET PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE WORLD, AND I WOULD ALWAYS COME HOME WITH STORIES.

THE PANDEMIC JUST PUT IT AN END TO THAT.

I DIDN'T WANT A JOB WHERE I WAS SITTING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER.

AND NOW I WAS SITTING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER ALL DAY LONG.

THE JOY WENT OUT OF IT.

SOMETHING CHANGED IN ME WHERE IT WAS NO LONGER FUN.

I WAS GOING TO WORK TILL I WAS, LIKE, FULL RETIREMENT AGE, 66 AND A HALF, YOU KNOW, BUT SINCE I HAD THE RESOURCES AND THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE, I DECIDED TO RETIRE.

I SAT DOWN AND SAID, WHAT AM I REALLY GOING TO DO IN RETIREMENT?

AND DO I WANT TO DO THIS BICYCLE MECHANIC THING?

I WANTED A SPACE WHERE PEOPLE COME IN, WE PUT THEIR BIKE UP AND I GO THROUGH THE BIKE AND I FIND OUT WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT, AND I TELL THEM.

THE ENGINEER IN ME, YOU LIKE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.

YOU LIKE TO HAVE A SPECIAL SKILL.

ONE CUSTOMER HAS COME BACK FIVE TIMES ALREADY, WITH FIVE DIFFERENT BICYCLES, HER CHILDREN, HER GRANDCHILDREN.

I GET A LOT OF SATISFACTION OUT OF THAT.

AND I GET SOME SPENDING MONEY.

YEAH.

I FEEL VERY PRODUCTIVE DOING THIS.

I FEEL LIKE I'M MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

>> Braude: YOU CAN FOLLOW "THE BIG QUIT" STORIES AT gbhnews.org/thebigquit, AS WELL AS RADIO 89.7, AND HERE ON GBH 2.

YOU CAN ALSO CONTACT US AT gbhnews.org/thebigquit TO SHARE YOUR STORY.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

PULITZER PRIZE WINNING "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER, FORMERLY OF THE "BOSTON GLOBE", FARAH STOCKMAN, JOINS ME ON HER NEW BOOK: "AMERICAN MADE: WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHEN WORK DISAPPEARS."

PLUS, HE'S KNOWN AS THE "MICHAEL JORDAN OF THE BASS," VICTOR WOOTEN JOINS ME ON HIS UPCOMING SHOWS WITH THE B.S.O., ALONG WITH CONDUCTOR THOMAS WILKINS.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org