>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT, THE 2022 GREATER BOSTON HOUSING REPORT CARD IS OUT, AND THE FINDINGS, NOT SURPRISINGLY, ARE BLEAK, HIGHLIGHTING WEALTH AND RACE GAPS ACROSS BOTH RENTERS AND HOMEBUYERS.

TWO OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE BOSTON FOUNDATION REPORT JOIN ME, WITH SOME OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS, AND POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS.

PLUS, THE ANATOMY OF AN EFFECTIVE PROTEST.

FROM WOMEN-- AND SOME MEN-- IN IRAN CALLING FOR REGIME CHANGE AFTER THE DEATH OF A WOMAN IN POLICE CUSTODY, TO ACTIONS HERE IN THE U.S. OVER ABORTION ACCESS, POLICE VIOLENCE, CLIMATE CHANGE-- OH, AND OF COURSE, THERE ARE THOSE BIG OIL OBJECTORS WHO THREW TOMATO SOUP ON A VAN GOGH, STILL GLUED TO THE WALL-- AND BEYOND, WHAT KINDS OF PROTEST ARE THE MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED?

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: WE'VE LONG KNOWN HOUSING AFFORDABILITY IN AND AROUND BOSTON IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, AND A NEW REPORT OUT TODAY FROM THE BOSTON FOUNDATION SHOWS THINGS AREN'T GOOD ON FAR TOO MANY FRONTS, FROM HIGH RENTS, TO SKYROCKETING HOME PRICES, MAJOR RACIAL INEQUITIES, AND CONFUSING PATHS TO SUBSIDIZED HOUSING, EVEN FOR THOSE WHO QUALITY, PUTTING AFFORDABLE HOUSING OUT OF THE REACH FOR FAR TOO MANY.

AS BOSTON FOUNDATION PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

LEE PELTON PUT IT, IT'S "A FRAGMENTED PROCESS THAT DEFIES ANY GOALS OF EQUITY AND DIVERSITY."

LET'S DIG INTO THE MESS AND HOW TO FIX IT.

JOINING ME ARE SONI GUPTA, ASSOCIATE VICE PRESIDENT OF NEIGHBORHOODS AND HOUSING AT THE BOSTON FOUNDATION, AND LUC SCHUSTER, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF BOSTON INDICATORS, WHICH IS THE BOSTON FOUNDATION'S RESEARCH CENTER.

>> Braude: GOOD TO SEE YOU, TOO, LUC.

THANK YOU TO BOTH OF YOU.

LET'S START WITH A RARE PIECE OF GOOD NEWS.

HOUSING PRODUCTION UPLIFT, YOU GUYS CALCULATOR THE NUMBER OF PERMITS, I THINK IT WAS AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL SINCE 2005.

WHY?

>> I'LL TURN THIS OVER TO LUC AS THE DATA PERSON?

>> I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A GROWING RECOGNITION OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS THAT WE HAVE A HOUSING CRISIS.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER AND TRYING TO GET HOUSING.

THE PRODUCTION INCREASES ARE NOT EVEN ACROSS THE REGION.

THERE ARE FAR MORE, ESPECIALLY MULTI-FAMILY PRODUCTION HAPPENING IN METRO CORE COMMUNITIES LIKE BOSTON, CAMBRIDGE, AND MUCH LESS IN THE SUBURBS.

>> Braude: IT SEEMS TO ME FROM HIS ANSWER, THE GOOD NEWS IS WHERE THERE IS A WILL, THEY CAN DO IT.

WHAT LUC IS SAYING, BECAUSE THEY REALIZED THERE IS A CRISIS, SOME RESPONDED.

IS THAT THE CONCLUSION I SHOULD DRAW FROM THERE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND SOME HAVE RESPONDED IN DOING FAR MORE OF THEIR FAIR SHARE THAN OTHERS.

FOR INSTANCE, BOSTON HAS ALWAYS PRODUCED MORE, AS IN MANY RECENT YEARS, PRODUCED A LOT MORE HOUSING, HAS PRODUCED A LOT MORE SUBSIDIZED HOUSING.

>> Braude: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT MAYOR WU'S PLANS ARE IN A MINUTE.

HOME PRICES AND RENTS AND SKYROCKETING, ZILLOW HAS BOSTON AS THE FOURTH HIGHEST OVER THE MAJOR METROPOLITAN MARKETS.

ANOTHER THING I SAW THIS MORNING PUT US AT NUMBER TWO.

IS THERE ANYTHING NEW IN THOSE FINDINGS OR MORE OF WHAT WE KNEW BEFORE.

>> WHAT IS SURPRISING ABOUT THE FINDINGS IS THAT THE PANDEMIC DIDN'T SHIFT THE TREND MUCH, THE GRAPH YOU JUST SHOWED.

THERE WAS A DRIP IN 2020s, BUT IT REVERSED IN EARLY 2021 AND WE'RE SETTING RECORDS AGAIN.

IT SPEAKS TO THE FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURAL PROBLEM -- >> Braude: SO WE WENT FROM INSANELY UNAFFORDABLE TO MAINLY UNAFFORDABLE?

>> YEAH, AND A LOT OF THAT WAS STUDENTS LEAVING DURING THE PANDEMIC YEAR AND COMING BACK A YEAR LATER.

>> Braude: CAN YOU EXPLAIN, EITHER OF YOU, WHAT COST BURDEN IS?

>> SURE.

COST BURDEN IS THE RATIO OF THE FAMILY'S INCOME TO THE HOUSING COSTS.

SO WHEN WE SAY A FAMILY'S COST BURDEN, WE USUALLY MEAN THEY'RE PAYING MORE THAN 30% OF THEIR INCOME, WHERE IT'S HOUSING COSTS, WHICH MEANS RENT OR MORTGAGE PAYMENTS, AS WELL AS THE COST OF HEATING THEIR HOMES.

>> Braude: 45% OF ALL RENTERS ARE COST BURDEN, BLACK AND LATINO RENTERS OVER 50%.

WHICH BASICALLY MEANS YOU HAVE NO MONEY FOR ANYTHING ELSE, SKEPTIC TO PAY YOUR RENT?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

YOU'RE BARELY SURVIVING BY PAYING FOR HOUSING JUST TO KEEP A ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD.

>> Braude: I WANT TO MOVE OVER TO SOLUTIONS.

IS THERE ANOTHER FINDING I'M IGNORING THAT YOU THINK IS CENTRAL TO THE PROBLEM?

>> RELATED TO THE COST BEARING ONE, WE HAVE SEEN A SHARP INCREASE IN FAMILIES LIVING IN OVERCROWDED HOUSING.

BASICALLY A TWO THIRD INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES LIVING IN OVERCROWDED HOMES REGION-WIDE.

>> Braude: A QUESTION I HESITATE TO ASK BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ME AND SAY THIS GUY COPY NOT CANNOT BE AS CLUELESS AS HE APPEARS, WHY IS HOUSING NOT KEEPING UP?

>> WE HAVE 351 VERY SMALL CITIES AND TOWNS IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND THE STATE HAS SEATED MOST OF THE IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, LAND USE AND HOUSING DECISIONS TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN THOSE CITIES AND TOWNS.

IT HAS MEANT THERE HAS BEEN KIND OF A RACE TO THE BOTTOM IN EAR IN IR ERECTING HOUSING.

>> Braude: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MOST TROUBLING ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS IT DOESN'T TAKE AN EXPERT ON RESEARCH TO REALIZE THAT THE MOST PART OF MOST FAMILY'S WEALTH IS THRIR HOME.

AND I'VE TALKED TO YOUR COLLEAGUE, LEE PELTON, AT NAUSEAM ABOUT THE WEALTH GAP OUT OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE, AND I KNOW YOU'RE PARTNERS IN AN EFFORT TO UPDATE IT IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

THE $250,000 FOR A WHITE FAMILY, AND $8 FOR A BLACK FAMILY.

AND SOME LATINO FAMILIES EVEN LOWER AT ZERO.

THIS IS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTING PROBLEM TO THAT GAP, IS IT NOT, THE HOUSING PROBLEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND IT IS HOUSING NOT JUST -- NOT JUST OWNERSHIP HOUSING, IT IS RENTAL HOUSING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS, MORE BLACK AND LATINO HOUSEHOLDS ARE RENTERS, SO ANY INTERVENTION IN ADDRESSING THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP MUCH LOOK AT RENTERS, AND TODAY'S REPORT LOOKED AT HOW MANY RENTER HOUSEHOLDS ARE LEFT OUT OF HOME OWNERSHIP BECAUSE OF JUST EVEN OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS BECAUSE OF THE INCREASES IN HOME PRICES, AND NOW THE INTEREST RATE INCREASE AND HOW MORE AND MORE HOUSEHOLDS ARE UNABLE TO BECOME HOME BUYERS -- >> Braude: AND ALSO CAN THEY NOT BECOME HOME BUYERS, BY DEFINITION, THAT INCREASES THE DEMAND FOR RENTAL HOUSING, SO OBVIOUSLY RENTAL PRICES GO UP AS WELL.

CAN YOU SHARE WITH US A COUPLE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS IN THIS REPORT, EACH OF YOU, I'LL ASK, THAT YOU THINK ARE MOST IMPORTANT BUT THEY HAVE TO PASS THE LAB TEST.

THINGS THAT ARE ACTUALLY ACHIEVABLE IN THIS KIND OF POLITICAL ENVIRONMENTAL.

GIVE ME ONE OR TWO, LUC.

>> I'LL GIVE ONE IN THINKING ABOUT THE FRAMEWORK, WHICH IS I THINK WE NEED TO DO MORE AT A REGIONAL OR STATE LEVEL SCHOOL.

THE UPZONING LAW THAT WAS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE THAT IS EXPECTING MOST COMMUNITIES IN GREATER BOSTON TO ADOPT ONE NEIGHBORHOOD ZONE THAT ALLOWS FOR HOUSING -- >> Braude: THIS IS ONE OF THE BAKER'S PLANS -- >> THE VAST MAJORITY OF MASSACHUSETTS.

ANYBODY WHO HAS SOME ACCESS TO A TRANSIT NOTE IN THE REGION, YOU HAVE TO HAVE ONE MODEST PORTION OF YOUR COMMUNITY THAT ALLOWS FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN JUST SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES.

AND IT IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN LACKING TODAY.

>> Braude: A LOT OF RESISTANCE IN SOME COMMUNITIES?

>> IT SPEAKS TO THE KIND OF PATH DEPENDENCE WHERE WE HAVE LOCAL PLANNING BOARDS AND LOCAL TOWN MEETINGS THAT HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED WITH MAKING THESE CRITICAL HOUSING DECISIONS.

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW PEOPLE LIVE AND WORK.

PEOPLE ARE MOVING ACROSS THESE TOWN BOUNDARIES ALL OF THE TIME AND WE NEED TO LEVEL UP OUR POLICIES.

>> Braude: AND BAKER CHANGED.

DID HE NOT WIN THAT ZONING PERCENTAGE APPROVAL THING, WHICH IS PRETTY SIGNIFICANT, TOO.

WHAT WOULD YOU ADD TO THE LIST OF RECOMMENDATIONS THAT DOES PASS THE LAB TEST?

>> WE PUSH FOR SOME SORT OF FAIR HOUSING LEVEL -- >> Braude: WOULD WOULD THAT MEAN?

>> AN OFFICE OF FAIR HOUSING WITH A SENIOR ADMINISTRATION PERSON MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT -- AND LOOKING AT DATA ACROSS THE STATE TO SEE WHAT KINDS OF INTERVENTIONS WE NEED TO DO AT A STATE LEVEL.

>> Braude: MAURA HEALEY IS THE FRONT-RUNNER AND LIKELY THE NEXT GOVERNOR -- A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T VOTED YET -- I KNOW SHE SEEMS TO EMBRACE THIS TRANSIT HUB THING THAT BAKER DID.

SHE'LL BE WITH US ON THE RADIO TOMORROW, AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT, AND SHE SEEMS TO BE IN FAVOR OF SOME SORT OF SUBSIDY FOR LOW INCOME RENTERS AND FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS.

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> YES.

AND I THINK THAT COULD BE AN INCREDIBLE PUSH AT THE STATE LEVEL, TO LOOK AT WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE HOUSING AFFORDABLE FOR LOWER INCOME HOUSEHOLDS.

WE'RE LOOKING AT A STATE-WIDE INCREASE IN THE MASSACHUSETTS STATE RENTAL VOUCHER PROGRAM, TO MAKE IT MORE OF A RIGHT OR A PROGRAM THAT IS AVAILABLE TO ANY HOUSEHOLD THAT MIGHT BE INCOME ELIGIBLE.

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE HOUSING AFFORDABLE FOR ALL HOUSEHOLDS?

>> Braude: YOU DON'T WEIGH INTO THE RENT CONTROL DEBATE IN THIS REPORT, DO YOU?

>> NOT IN >> NOT IN THIS REPORT.

THEY'RE CALLING IT RENT CONTROL -- >> Braude: I USED TO BE A RENT CONTROL LAWYER IN NEW YORK CITY.

>> THEY DID IT WITH STATEWIDE UPZONING IN OREGON AL ALLOWING AT LEAST DUPLEXES, AND YOU HAVE TO DO STRATEGIES LIKE THAT.

>> Braude: I'M QUITE SURE THAT MAURA HEALEY HAS TOLD US ON THE RADIO IN THE PAST, SHE WOULD SUPPORT THE LOCAL OPTION, THE RENT CONTROL BILL THAT IS PENDING, MEANING NO MANDATE, BUT PUR MISSION PERMISSION.

HAVE YOU HOPEFUL -- HOW DO YOU COME OUT OF THIS REPORT?

>> WELL, HOPEFUL IN THE SENSE THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME VERY DOABLE, LIKE YOU SAID, LAB TEST PASSING SOLUTIONS AND WITH A NEW ADMINISTRATION, AND THE DATA TO SUPPORT IT, I THINK WE HAVE SOME POTENTIAL TO MAKE SOME IN-ROADS.

THE LOCAL OPTION, FOR INSTANCE, SEEMS LIKE A LOGICAL SOLUTION.

THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT WANT TO LOOK AT RENT CONTROL AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO.

>> Braude: SOME DAY SOMEBODY WILL EXPLAIN WHY A LEGISLATURE SHOULD NOT VOTE UNANIMOUSLY FOR ANY CITY OR TOWN IF WHAT THEY DO DOESN'T AFFECT PEOPLE BEYOND THEIR BORDERS.

WERE YOU IN THE HOPEFUL SCALE?

OBVIOUSLY NOT AS HIGH AS YOUR COLLEAGUE?

>> I THINK THE PERMITTING NUMBERS YOU CITED ARE POSITIVE OVER THE PAST FIVE OR 10 YEARS.

I THINK THE POLICY STEPS THE STATE HAS TAKEN IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ARE PROMISING.

THE THING I'VE WORRIED ABOUT IS ARE WE GOING TO WAIT UNTIL OUR HOUSING GETS AS BAD AS IT IS IN CALIFORNIA TO REALLY TAKE ACTION.

CALIFORNIA ON THE LEGISLATIVE SIDE IS LAPPING UP.

THEY ARE GOING BACK AND PASSING NEW LAWS, AND THEY'VE LEGALIZED THE ACCESSIBILITY.

I'M WORRIED THAT THEY'RE TAKING THAT CRISIS BECAUSE THEY ARE WORSE THAN OURS, AND I WOULD HATE FOR US TO HAVE TO GET THERE BEFORE WE DO MORE AT SCALE.

>> Braude: >> BRAUDE: SONI GUPTA, LUC SCHUSTER, THANKS.

YOU CAN FIND THE FULL BOSTON FOUNDATION HOUSING REPORT CARD ONLINE AT TBF.ORG.

AND YOU CAN FIND MUCH MORE ON THE HOUSING CRISIS IN MASSACHUSETTS IN OUR ONGOING SERIES AT GBHNEWS.ORG/PRICEDOUT.

MOURNERS AND PROTESTERS ARE MARKING 40 DAYS SINCE 22-YEAR-OLD MAHSA AMINI DIED WHILE IN THE CUSTODY OF IRAN'S "MORALITY POLICE."

AND, DESPITE DEADLY GOVERNMENT CRACKDOWNS, DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THE REGIME ARE STILL GOING STRONG ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT, HOW LIKELY ARE THEY TO SPARK REAL CHANGE?

DATA COMING OUT OF HARVARD FINDS THE ODDS ARE NOT IN THEIR FAVOR.

AS THE LEAD RESEARCHER PUT IT, "NON-VIOLENT CAMPAIGNS ARE SEEING THEIR LOWEST SUCCESS RATES IN MORE THAN A CENTURY," WITH AROUND ONE IN SIX PROTESTS LEADING TO SOME SORT OF SYSTEMIC CHANGE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, COMPARED TO 2-IN-3 FINDING SUCCESS IN THE EARLY 2000S.

THE RESEARCHER WENT ON TO SAY, "FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE 1940S-- A DECADE DOMINATED BY STATE-BACKED PARTISAN REBELLIONS AGAINST NAZI OCCUPATIONS-- NON-VIOLENT RESISTANCE DOES NOT HAVE A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE OVER ARMED INSURRECTION."

DOES SOUP-THROWING STAND A BETTER CHANCE?

WHAT KIND OF PROTEST IS LIKELY TO LEAD TO REAL CHANGE, AND WHAT IS NOT?

COULD SOME OF THAT POWER LIE IN THE ARTS?

I'M JOINED BY STEPHEN DUNCOMBE, A PROFESSOR AND THE CO-FOUNDER AND RESEARCH DIRECTOR FOR THE CENTER FOR ARTISTIC ACTIVISM AT N.Y.U.

WE'D ALSO HOPED TO HAVE BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVIST DERAY MCKESSON, WHO CO-FOUNDED CAMPAIGN ZERO, WITH US, UNFORTUNATELY, HE WAS UNABLE TO JOIN US AT THE LAST MINUTE.

>> Braude: STEPHEN, GOOD TO MEET YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Braude: PRETTY PROVOCATIVE HEADLINE IN THE GUARDIAN, "THE SOUP PROTESTORS," THOSE WHO THREW TOMATO SOUP AT THE GALLERY AND GLUED THEMSELVES TO THE WALL.

"THEY GRABBED THE WORLD'S ATTENTION, BUT WERE THEY AFFECTIVE?"

HOW DID YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION, WERE THEY AFFECTIVE?

>> IT IS TOO SOON TO KNOW.

BUT MY REAL QUESTION IS: WHAT WAS THEIR OBJECTIVE?

WHEN WE WORK WITH ACTIVISTS, THE KEY THING WE WORK WITH IS, OKAY, WE HAVE A GOAL, RIGHT?

AND THIS CLEARLY IS TO STOP OIL.

BUT WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF THE ACTION?

WHAT WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO BE DONE BY THE ACTION?

WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO DO?

AND WHO IS YOUR AUDIENCE?

AND WHAT DO YOU WANT THAT AUDIENCE TO THINK, FEEL, AND DO?

HERE WE ARE, WHAT, TWO WEEKS LATER AND WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE ACTION AND WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT UNLESS WE GET RID OF CARBON-BASED FUELS, WE'RE GOING TO EXTERMINATE HUMAN LIFE ON THIS PLANET.

THAT IS PROBLEMATIC, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ACTION AND NOT WHAT THE OBJECT OF THE ACTION MIGHT BE OR THE GOAL OF THE ACTION.

>> Braude: I THINK I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU UNLESS, AND I HAVE NO IDEA, THEY HAVE A LONGER-TERM PLAN.

STEP ONE WAS TO CRACK PEOPLE'S MINDS OPEN -- THE ONLY ANALOGY I CAN THINK OF IS MOST PEOPLE I TALKED WERE APPALLED BY THE SOUP THROWING -- I THINK THERE IS PLEXIGLASS AND IT WASN'T ON THE VAN GOGH ITSELF.

IT IS LIKE PEOPLE RESPONDING TO PETA A DECADE AGO.

THEY WERE THROWING RED PAINT ON WOMEN INEXPENSIVE FURS.

ALL WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WAS THE RED PAINT, AND IT TOOK A WHILE, BUT DOWN THE LINE, A LOT OF COMMUNITIES SAID NO TO FUR.

MY HOME TOWN OF CAMBRIDGE IS VOTING ON IT.

IF IT IS PART OF A CONTINUUM OF ACTION, MAYBE WE WILL KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THN JUST THE SOUP.

>> WE WILL SEE.

IF IT IS NOT LARGER, THEN IT WON'T BE AN AFFECTIVE CAMPAIGN.

WHAT PETA HAD GOING FOR IT -- I'M NOT THE BIGGEST FAN OF PETA'S ACTIONS, BUT WHAT THEY HAD GOING FOR THEM THERE WAS A DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ACTION AND THE MESSAGE.

WHICH IS YOU ARE WEARING A FUR, A FUR IS TAKEN FROM AN ANIMAL WHO BLEEDS, RIGHT?

THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THROWING TOMATO SOUP AT A VAN GOGH PAINTING OF A SUNFLOWER TO PROTEST OIL IS SO CON CONVOLUTED THAT THE LEGIBILITY FACTOR -- YOU WANT YOUR AUDIENCE TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT AND WHAT THEY CAN DO TO ACT UPON IT, AND THAT GETS LOST.

>> Braude: I THINK CONVOLUTED IS BEING KIND, FRANKLY.

SO WHAT DOES MAKE A SUCCESSFUL PROTEST?

AND ARE THERE COMMON THREADS THROUGH ALL OF THEM, ACTUALLY, WHETHER THEY'RE, AGAIN, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ON THE STREET FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER AFTER MICHAEL BROWN WAS KILLED, AND OBVIOUSLY AFTER GEORGE FLOYD, TO SMALL DEMONSTRATIONS ABOUT OTHER THINGS THAT MATTER.

IS THERE A COMMON THREAD?

>> YEAH, I THINK SO.

MY GO-TO EXAMPLES IS ALWAYS FROM THE U.S. CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT BECAUSE THEY WERE BRILLIANT AT THINKING ABOUT TABLGHT TACTICS.

LET'S TAKE A FAMOUS ONE, ROSEROSA PARKS, NOT GIVING UP HERE SEAT.

THE ACTION COMMUNICATED WHAT THE MESSAGE WAS, WHICH IS THE RIGHT OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO SIT WHEREVER THEY WANT ON A BUS.

THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, IT WAS PART OF A LARGER CAMPAIGN.

IT WAS KICKING OFF THE CAMPAIGN, BUT IT WAS A FULLY WORKED OUT CAMPAIGN THAT INCLUDED OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, THE BLACK CHURCHES, AND HAD A METHOD TOWARDS DESEGREGATION, WHICH WAS GOING TO BE THE BUS BOYCOTT.

THEY THOUGHT ABOUT THEIR AUDIENCES, BOTH AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN MONTGOMERY, AND THEY ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT A WIDER AMERICAN AUDIENCE WHICH MIGHT NOT CARE ABOUT THE POLICIES OF WHITE SUPREMACY, AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY TALKED ABOUT THE U.S.

BEING IN COMPETITION WITH THE SOVIET UNION ON A WORLDWIDE STAGE OVER WHO WAS GOING TO BEAR THE MANTEL OF PEACE AND JUSTICE.

AND THOSE IMAGES PLAYED INTO ALL OF THAT.

>> Braude: THERE ARE A LOT OF SUCCESSFUL EFFORTS THAT ARE NOT NEARLY AS THOUGHT OUT NOR AS IMPACTFUL.

JUST THIS WEEK ADIDAS DROPPED KANYE WEST, AND HE WENT FROM A BILLION TO HIS 400 MILLION DOLLARS.

THEY DIDN'T DO IT BECAUSE THEY'RE A SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE CORPORATION.

THEY TOOK A HUGE AMOUNT OF CRAP.

WHAT COMMON THREAD TO YOU SEE IN SUCCESSFUL PROTEST WAS THERE THERE THAT LED TO THAT OUTCOME.

>> WHAT THEY FEAR IS A BOYCOTT.

BOYCOTTING CAN BE A VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL TACTIC.

I THINK OF THE UNITED FARM WORKERS IN THE 1970s.

MY PARENTS WOULDN'T BUY GRAPES, THEY WOULDN'T BUY LETTUCE.

IT WAS BRILLIANT BECAUSE IT TOOK THIS ABSTRACTION OF A LABOR STRUGGLE ACROSS ALL THESE FIELDS IN CALIFORNIA AND BROUGHT IT TO A CENTRALIZED PLACE, AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, GAVE PEOPLE SOME TO DO.

MY PARENTS COULD SUPPORT THE FARM WORKERS WAY OUT IN CALIFORNIA BY NOT BUYING LETTUCE AND GRAPES.

>> Braude: I HAD DELORES HERE NOT TOO LONG AGO, AND IT WAS THRILLING.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT THERE WAS NOT -- THE WOMEN'S MARCH IS THE DAY AFTER THE INAUGURATION OF TRUMP, WERE ABSOLUTELY HUGE.

I HAVE TO SAY I WAS STUNNED BY THE FACT THERE WAS NOT A NATIONAL UPHEAVAL OF WOMEN AND MEN AFTER THE DOBBS DECISION REPEALING ROE.

WERE YOU SURPRISED?

I MEAN, THERE WERE DEMONSTRATIONS OUTSIDE THE SUPREME COURT, ISOLATED DEMONSTRATIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY, BUT NOTHING HUGE.

WHY?

>> WELL, I THINK THIS GOES BACK TO EXPLAINING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ACTIONS OF THE "JUST STOP OIL" ACTIVISTS.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS SORT OF TRIED AND TRUE, YOU KNOW, METHODS OF THE MARCH, THE RALLY, THE PETITION, IS THEY'VE DONE SO MUCH THEY'VE BECOME ROOTINIZED, AND THEY HAVE BECOME EVERY DAY, AND SO THEY DON'T HAVE THAT CAPACITY TO MAKE US STOP AND THINK AND RE-EVALUATE.

I APPLAUD THIS IDEA OF THINKING ABOUT NEW ACTIVISM.

WE GET PEOPLE TO TRY TO CREATE LIKE ARTISTS WHEN THEY GO INTO THEIR ACTIVISM AS A WAY TO OFFER SURPRISE AND SHAKE PEOPLE UP SO THEY CAN'T DISMISS IT AS THAT IS JUST ANOTHER MARCH, THAT IS JUST ANOTHER RALLY.

I THINK THAT EXPLAINS A LITTLE BIT OF THAT SORT OF SHOCK VALUE THAT THOSE PROTESTORS THAT THREW THE TOMATO SOUP WANTED.

BUT EVEN AS YOU'RE STRIVING TO BE NEW, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT OLD THINGS, LIKE, WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTIVE?

WHO IS YOUR AUDIENCE?

IS THIS GOING TO RESONATE WITH THEM AND PASS YOUR MESSAGE THROUGH?

I THINK THAT THE OLD MODELS HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BE RECREATED.

>> Braude: DO YOU KNOW IF THEY'RE STILL GLUED TO THE WALL, STEPHEN?

>> I IMAGINE THEY GOT THEM OUT.

>> Braude: STEPHEN, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> NO PROBLEM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, AS WE CONTINUE OUR SERIES ON THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" FIVE-STAR-RATED RESTAURANTS, WITH CHEF AND OWNER OF NIGHTSHADE IN LYNN.

AND I CAN'T WAIT TO SAMPLE SOME OF THEIR 14-COURSE OFFERINGS.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE, DON'T FORGET ABOUT UKRAINE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> I'M DEEP IN THE LYNN WOODS, INSIDE THE BELLY OF THE BEAST, DUNGEON ROCK.

SOME SAY THAT THIS PLACE IS SERIOUSLY HAUNTED... >> DO YOU WORRY THAT IT'S ACTUALLY HAUNTED?

>> FOR SURE.

YES, ABSOLUTELY.

>> OTHERS, THAT IT HIDES THE TREASURE OF THE 17th CENTURY PIRATE THOMAS VEAL.

>> HE'S IN THE CAVE.

THE TREASURE'S IN THE CAVE.

AND HE'S SMASHED FLAT.

>> SO THIS ROCK BECOMES HIS DUNGEON.

ONE THING THAT IS CERTAIN: IT WAS DUG BY A MAN WHO BELIEVED HE WAS BEING LED RIGHT HERE FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE.

SO THERE IS A SUPPOSEDLY HAUNTED CAVE HERE IN LYNN.

WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS SPOOKY STORY, AND OUR QUEST BEGINS RIGHT HERE.

>> I GREW UP NOT TOO FAR FROM THE WOODS.

WE DEFINITELY LEARNED ABOUT DUNGEON ROCK AS KIDS, FOR SURE.

IT'S A PRETTY COOL AND COMPELLING STORY.

>> IN THE MID-1800s, THE WOODS ENTERED AN OMINOUS CHAPTER, BECOMING A HOTBED OF THE PARANORMAL, THANKS TO A MASSACHUSETTS MAN NAMED HIRAM MARBLE, A MEMBER OF THE SOCIAL RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT CALLED "SPIRITUALISM."

>> THEY HAD MEDIAS THAT BELIEVED THAT THEY COULD SPEAK TO PEOPLE THAT HAVE PASSED ON.

AND SO HIRAM MARBLE WOULD USE THESE MEDIUMS.

>> MARBLE PURCHASED THE LAND IN LYNN WOODS BECAUSE HE BELIEVED HE WAS BEING LED THERE BY ONE SPIRIT IN PARTICULAR, THE GHOST OF A PIRATE FROM THE 1600s NAMED THOMAS VEAL.

STORIES HAVE IT THAT THERE WAS A PIRATE WHO ENDED UP TAKING UP SHOP THERE, HIDING WITH HIS TREASURE.

AN EARTHQUAKE HAPPENED AND HE WAS SEALED IN THE CAVE WITH THE TREASURE, ALLEGEDLY.

>> THE PIRATE STORY FIRST APPEARED IN PRINT NEARLY TWO CENTURIES AFTER IT SUPPOSEDLY HAPPENED, AND SOON VERSIONS BEGAN POPPING UP ALL OVER.

AND IT WAS AGAINST THIS BACKDROP THAT HIRAM MARBLE AND HIS SON EDWIN WOULD SPEND 30 YEARS RELENTLESSLY DIGGING A CAVE IN SEARCH OF THE REMAINS OF THOMAS VEAL AND HIS BURIED TREASURE.

A CAVE STILL THERE TODAY, DUNGEON ROCK.

WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN JOINING ME FOR A LITTLE TRIP TO THE PIRATE CAVE?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO STILL GO TO DUNGEON ROCK.

I'M JUST NOT ONE OF THEM.

>> WAIT, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN INSIDE?

>> NO.

>> WHY?

>> IT CREEPS ME OUT A LITTLE BIT.

>> DO YOU WORRY THAT IT'S ACTUALLY HAUNTED?

>> YEAH, FOR SURE.

>> FOR SURE?

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

I DON'T NEED TO ENCOUNTER THAT SPIRIT.

AT THE EDGE OF THE WOODS -- TODAY A 2,200-ACRE PARK -- WE MET UP WITH RANGER DAN SMALL, OR GUIDE INTO THE ALERT OF HIRAM MARBLE'S UNHOLY OBSESSION.

THERE WAS NO TURNING BACK NOW.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WON'T GO IN.

ONE TIME, OH, 20 YEARS AGO, I HAD AN ASSISTANT RANGER, AND HE WAS A RUGGED GUY.

HE WAS LIKE A REGULAR GUY.

BUT HE WOULD NOT GO IN THERE.

>> AS THE ORIGINAL STORY GOES, ONE NIGHT IN 1658, A MYSTERIOUS SHIP APPEARED IN THE BAY.

FOUR MEN, INCLUDING THOMAS VEAL, WERE SEEN ROWING FROM IT UP THE SAUGUS RIVER.

THEY TOOK UP RESIDENCY IN THE WOODS.

>> AND HE HAD THE TREASURE WITH HIM, WHICH IS THE IMPORTANT PART.

>> THREE OF THE PIRATES WERE CAPTURED BY AUTHORITIES, BUT THOMAS VEAL ESCAPED.

>> HE RAN UP INTO HERE WITH THE TREASURE.

BEHIND THIS BIG ROCK THAT YOU'RE STANDING NEXT TO, THERE'S ACTUALLY A NATURAL CAVE.

>> AND THERE HE LIVED FOR A TIME, UNTIL A GREAT EARTHQUAKE STRUCK AND COLLAPSED HIS MAKESHIFT ABODE.

THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED DUNGEON ROCK.

THIS IS THE PRIORITY'S DUNGEON, BECAUSE A BIG BOULDER HAS HIM TRAPPED UNDERNEATH IT.

>> AS FOR THE VERACITY OF THIS OLD YARN?

>> MEH.

THERE WERE PIRATES IN THIS AREA AT THAT TIME.

THERE REALLY WAS A GUY NAMED TOM VEAL.

THERE'S RECORDS OF HIM IN THE SALEM COURT.

>> BUT WHILE THERE ARE FIRSTHAND RECORDS OF EARTHQUAKES HERE IN 1638 AND 1663, THERE WASN'T ONE IN 1658.

>> ANOTHER MAJOR FAULT WITH THE STORY, TOO, IS NOWHERE BEFORE ABOUT 1850 OR 1840 IS THERE ANY REFERENCE TO THIS AREA BEING CALLED DUNGEON ROCK.

>> TRUE OR NOT, HIRAM MARBLE WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED THE TALE.

AS FOR PEOPLE TODAY?

>> I'VE FOUND RITUALLY-KILLED CHICKENS.

I'VE FOUND THINGS WITH CANDLES AND COCONUT, AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT WERE SET UP.

IT'S EASY TO DISMISS IT ALL AS A HOAX OR HOOEY, BUT THE REALITY IS A LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON UP HERE.

AND WHO AM I TO SAY THERE ISN'T?

>> OUT OF EXCUSES AND REASONS TO STALL, IT WAS TIME TO ENTER THIS LITERAL UNDERWORLD.

INSIDE IT IS COLD, IT IS DAMP, AND IT IS DARK.

THE TUNNEL IS ERRATIC.

>> THEY ACTUALLY WOULD HOLD SEANCES IN THE CAVE.

THE GHOST WOULD APPEAR, HE WOULD SAY GO RIGHT, GO LEFT, AND THAT'S WHY IT MAKES THESE ABRUPT CHANGES.

>> AND IT ABRUPTLY ENDS 174 FEET FROM THE START, WITH TWO STAGNANT POOLS OF WATER.

WE GOT A TRUSTY GHOST METER HERE.

IT RUNS ON A 9-VOLT BATTERY.

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH OF A GHOST METER IT CAN REALLY BE, BUT WE'RE GOING TO TURN IT ON AND SEE WHAT WE FIND HERE AT THE END OF THE CAVE.

ALL RIGHT.

THE NEEDLE SEEMS TO BE DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN ANY DIRECTION.

A LITTLE BOUNCE HERE.

>> HELLO?

>> WHAT?

HONESTLY, WHAT IN THE (bleep) WAS THAT?

>> HELLO?

>> HELLO.

>> TURNS OUT IT WAS JUST SOME KIDS MESSING WITH US.

LIKE, THAT WAS LEGITIMATELY, FOR A MOMENT, TERRIFYING.

IN THE END, THERE WERE NO GHOSTS.

THERE WAS NO GOLD.

A DISAPPOINTMENT I THINK THE MARBLES MIGHT RELATE TO.

HIRAM PASSED AWAY IN 1868.

EDWIN KEPT DIGGING UNTIL HIS DEATH IN 1880, AND HE IS BURIED IN AN UNMARKED GRAVE JUST STEPS FROM THE CAVE'S ENTRANCE.

THEY DIDN'T FIND THE TREASURE, EITHER, BUT IN A WAY, THEY DID GET WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR.

>> EDWIN AND HIRAM'S PLAN FROM THE START -- AND THEY MADE THIS VERY PUBLIC -- WAS THAT IF THEY EVER FOUND THE MONEY, THEY WERE GOING TO BUY ALL THIS LAND AROUND HERE, AND THEY WERE GOING TO TURN IT INTO A PARK FOR THE PEOPLE IN LYNN.

>> TODAY IT IS EXACTLY THAT.

AND THEIR MANMADE CAVE AT DUNGEON ROCK IS FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC WHENEVER THE WEATHER ALLOWS.

SO, YES, YOU CAN COME AND SEE IT FOR YOURSELF.

IF YOU DARE.

>> THE CURIOSITY DESK IS SPONSORED BY EMERSON COLLEGE, INSPIRING CURIOSITY AND CREATIVE EXPRESSION IN ALL OF US.