>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WHISTLE-BLOWER FRANCES HAUGEN IS SHINING THE LIGHT ON THE MANY, MANY WAYS IN WHICH Facebook HAS KNOWINGLY FAILED TO ADDRESS HATE, MISINFORMATION, AND MENTAL HEALTH TRIGGERS ON ITS PLATFORM.

HAUGEN'S ADVISOR, HARVARD LAW'S LAWRENCE LESSIG JOINS ME ON ALL THAT HIS CLIENTS REVEALED, WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT, AND WHETHER CONGRESS IS ACTUALLY UP FOR THE JOB.

THEN, LATER, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR FARAH STOCKMAN JOINS ME ON HER NEW BOOK: "AMERICAN MADE: WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHEN WORK DISAPPEARS."

AND, FINALLY, HE'S KNOWN AS THE "MICHAEL JORDAN OF THE BASS," VICTOR WOOTEN JOINS ME ON HOW HE'S ABOUT TO MAKE HISTORY WITH THE B.S.O.

♪♪ >> Braude: IN THE 17 YEARS SINCE IT FIRST WENT LIVE FROM MARK ZUCKERBERG'S HARVARD DORM ROOM, Facebook HAS BEEN NO STRANGER TO CONTROVERSY.

BUT WHILE IT STARTED AS A SITE FOR LOCAL COLLEGE KIDS BATTLING BACK LAWSUITS OVER WHO ACTUALLY FOUNDED IT, IT'S SINCE BALLOONED INTO A GLOBAL GIANT, AND WITH GIANT, GLOBAL PROBLEMS.

FOR YEARS PEOPLE HAVE RAISED CONCERNS OVER HOW THE PLATFORM AMPLIFIES MISINFORMATION AND HATE AND CONTRIBUTES TO SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS.

BUT NEWLY LEAKED DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE COME TO BE KNOWN AS "THE Facebook PAPERS" ARE SHEDDING LIGHT ON WHAT THE COMPANY HAS LONG KNOWN AND WHAT THEY HAVE, OR RATHER HAVEN'T BEEN DOING ABOUT IT, AND IT'S ALL THANKS TO WHISTLE-BLOWER FRANCES HAUGEN.

>> THE ALGORITHMS TAKE PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY MAINSTREAM INTERESTS, AND THEY PUSH THEM TOWARDS EXTREME INTERESTS, USUALLY SOMEONE CENTER, LEFT, WE'LL PUSH TO RADICAL LEFT.

YOU CAN BE CENTER RIGHT, LEFT PUSH THE RADICAL RIGHT.

UNQUESTIONABLY, IT'S MAKING HATES WORSE.

IT'S A CONCERN Facebook EMPLOYEES HAVE APPARENTLY BEEN RAISING FOR YEARS, AND ACCORDING TO N.P.R., WHICH IS AMONG 17 NEWS ORGANIZATIONS GIVEN ACCESS TO THE DOCUMENTS, IT'S SOMETHING EMPLOYEES SEIZED ON AFTER THE JANUARY 6 ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, WITH ONE WRITING ON AN INTERNAL MESSAGE BOARD: "WE'VE BEEN FUELING THIS FIRE FOR A LONG TIME, AND WE SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IT'S NOW OUT OF CONTROL."

THE Facebook PAPERS ALSO HIGHLIGHT GAPS IN Facebook'S ABILITY TO PREVENT HATE SPEECH AND MISINFORMATION IN MUCH OF THE MIDDLE EAST, WHERE COVERAGE OF MANY LOCAL LANGUAGES IS INADEQUATE.

AND THEY GO ON TO REPORT: "Facebook HAS KNOWN ABOUT HUMAN TRAFFICKERS USING ITS PLATFORMS SINCE AT LEAST 2018 BUT HAS STRUGGLED TO CRACK DOWN ON RELATED CONTENT."

THEN, OF COURSE, THERE'S THE Facebook V.I.P.

PROGRAM, WHICH ALLOWED PROMINENT AND INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE TO PLAY BY DIFFERENT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAN THE REST OF US.

AMONG THEM?

DONALD TRUMP, WHO WAS ALLOWED TO STAY ON THE SITE AFTER REPEATED VIOLATIONS AND WAS ONLY KICKED OFF AFTER THE CAPITOL RIOT.

HAUGEN HAS ALSO TESTIFIED AT LENGTH ABOUT THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS Facebook-OWNED INSTAGRAM HAS HAD ON YOUNG GIRLS, WITH MANY BOTH ADDICTED TO AND HURT BY SOME OF THE PLATFORM'S CONTENT.

>> THE COMPANY'S LEADERSHIP KNOWS HOW TO MAKE Facebook AND INSTAGRAM SAFER BUT WON'T MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGES BECAUSE OF THEY HAVE PUT THEIR ASTRONOMICAL PROFITS BEFORE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: IN SHORT, AS ONE EMPLOYEE PUT IT, ACCORDING TO THE ""WALL STREET JOURNAL", "WE ARE NOT ACTUALLY DOING WHAT WE SAY WE DO PUBLICLY."

I'D SAY SO.

AND ON MONDAY, ZUCKERBERG PUT UP A STATEMENT SAYING, IN PART: "THESE ISSUES AREN'T PRIMARILY ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A COORDINATED EFFORT TO SELECTIVELY USE LEAKED DOCUMENTS TO PAINT A FALSE PICTURE OF OUR COMPANY."

I'M JOINED NOW BY ONE OF FRANCES HAUGEN'S ADVISORS THROUGH ALL OF THIS, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR, CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR, AND FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE LAWRENCE LESSIG.

>> Braude: LARRY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE, JIM.

>> Braude: WE ONLY KNOW FRANCES HAUGEN FROM HER PUBLIC FACE.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HER.

>> WELL, SHE ALMOST SEEMS LIKE SOME CENTRAL CASTING.

SHE IS A GEEK GIRL FROM IOWA, WHO DECIDED TO GO TO SILICONE VALLEY BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO TAKE HER TECHNICAL ABILITIES AND DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH THEM.

SHE JOINED Facebook AFTER 2016 BECAUSE SHE HAD SEEN HOW IT RADICALIZED ONE OF HER CLOSE FRIENDS, AND SHE WANTED TO WORK INSIDE THAT COMPANY TO MAKE THE COMPANY PRODUCE A PLATFORM THAT WOULD BE SAFER FOR EVERYBODY.

SHE WAS VERY IDEALISTIC.

AND THE STRIKING THING ABOUT THESE PAPERS, IF YOU READ THEM, IS HOW MANY IDEALISTS, HOW MANY ENGINEERS, INSIDE OF THAT COMPANY ARE SO COMMITTED TO DOING THE RIGHT THING.

>> Braude: MANY CIVIL LIBERTARIANS DON'T LIKE HOW MARK ZUCKERBERG DOES BUSINESS, BUT THEY WORRY ABOUT RUNNING AFOUL OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

YOU THINK FREE SPEECH AND REINING IN THE WORST OF Facebook CAN CO EXIST.

HOW?

>> THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE SPEECH.

THE PROBLEM IS THE AMPLIFICATION OF CERTAIN SPEECH.

WHAT THEY DO IS NOT JUST MAKE SPEECH AVAILABLE, THEY USE THEIR ALGORITHMS AND DECIDE TO AMPLIFY SOME AND SUPPRESS OTHERS.

WHAT THEY DO IS TO AMPLIFY THE WORST OF WHAT WE SAY.

THEY DO THAT NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO DESTROY AMERICA, THIS IS NOT PUTIN -- THEY DO THIS BECAUSE HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY RESPONDS, REACTS BEST VIOLENTLY TO THE POLITICS AND HATE.

IN THEIR BUSINESS MODEL, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, IS TO ADDICT US AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS TO GIVE US THE WORST CONTENT.

SO THE SOLUTION TO THAT, IN MY VIEWRKS IS TO VIEW, IS TO LOOK AT THE TECHNIQUES THAT Facebook'S ENGINEERS HAVE IDENTIFIED AS A SPEED BUMP, SLOWING DOWN THE CRAZINESS TO MAKE IT MORE OF A HUMAN SPEED SO WE DON'T TURN OUT TO BE THE WORST OF WE ARE.

>> Braude: DOES IT MEAN LIMITLY HOW MUCHLIMITING HOW MUCH CAN BE SHARED?

IS IT THAT SIMPLE?

>> RIGHT.

IF A COMMENT IS RESHARED TWICE, IT IS FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO HAVE MISINFORMATION THAN ANY OTHER CONTENT.

IF IT IS RESHARED MORE THAN TWICE, THEN THAT NUMBER GOES UP DRAMATICALLY.

SO WHAT THEY PROPOSED IS TO LIMIT THE ABILITY TO EASILY RESHARE THESE COMMENTS.

YOU CAN TAKE THE U.R.L.

AND PUT IT IN YOUR OWN MESSAGE AND SEND IT OUT TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU WANT.

BUT THIS SIMPLE WAY TO FACILITATE THE RESHARE IS WHAT DRIVES THE CRAZINESS OF THE POLITICAL SPEECH THAT WENT OUT OF CONTROL ON JANUARY 6.

>> Braude: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT, WHICH HOLDS PEOPLE LIABLE FOR THINGS POSTED BY THIRD PARTIES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND BIDEN BOTH WANTED IT REPEALED.

>> REPEAL IS A BIG WORD.

THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING LIKE A 230 INSIDE OF THE INTERNET SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR USER POST CONTENT ON THE INTERNET.

BUT THE PREMISE OF THE 230, IS IT WOULD BE PLACES LIKE MESSAGE BOARDS, WHERE PEOPLE CAN POST COMMENTS AND THE MESSAGE BOARD CAN'T REALLY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.

NOBODY IMAGINED THE FIS FIS SOPHISTICATED MANIPULATIONS MACHINES.

SO I THINK IN RESPONSE TO THIS DIVULGING TECHNOLOGY, WE NEED TO INVOLVE 230 TO MAKE IT SO THESE PLATFORMS DON'T HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO SPREAD THE WORST OF THE SPEECH, AND THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR TAKING DOWN THE HARMFUL SPEECH, SUCH AS DEFAMATION, AT LEAST WHEN THEY'RE MADE CLEAR OF IT.

SO IT IS NOT GOING TO BE SIMPLE, BUT WE CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT KEEP WHAT WE HAVE OR ABOLISH EVERYTHING IN 230.

>> Braude: I'VE BEEN PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION WITH THE ELIZABETH HOLMES TRIAL, WHEN SHE WAS DEFRAUDING INVESTORS WITH, OBVIOUSLY, HER BLOOD-TESTING COMPANY.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ZUCKERBERG IS ELIZABETH HOLMES AT LARGE.

HIS PUBLIC PRONOUNCEMENTS ABOUT WHAT HE COMPANY DOES ABOUT HARMFUL CONTENT ARE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY WHAT YOUR CLIENT, FRANCES HAUGEN, AND OTHER INTERNAL DOCUMENTS DISCLOSE.

DOES HE HAVE POTENTIAL SERIOUS CRIMINAL LIABILITY HERE?

SHE COULD DO 20 YEARS IN PRISON, BY THE WAY.

>> I DOUBT HE FACES CRIMINAL LIABILITY, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE MANY S.E.C.

ACTIONS SAYING THEY MISLEADMISLED THEIR INVESTORS.

HE HAS BEEN VERY CAREFUL IN CRAFTING HIS STATEMENTS TO MISLEAD THE PUBLIC IN FUNDAMENTAL WAYS.

I WOULDN'T EQUATE HIM TO HOLMES BECAUSE HE HAS BUILT SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY, UNLIKE HOLMES, BECAUSE EVERYTHING SHE WAS BUILDING WAS TO FRAUD.

BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE WAY THE COMPANY IS STRUCTURED THAT WE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT.

AND THAT IS THE FACT THAT THAT MAN, SITTING ON TOP OF A TRILLION-DOLLAR COMPANY WHICH TOUCHES THE LIVES OF THREE BILLION PEOPLE EVERY SINGLE MONTH, THAT MAN -- EVERY DECISION HE MAKES IS A DECISION THAT CANNOT BE OVERTURNED BY ANYBODY ELSE'S ELSE IN THE COMPANY.

HE HAS A CONTROLLING OWNERSHIP IN THE SHARES OF THAT COMPANY.

THAT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

WE DID NOT HAVE A PUBLICLY-TRADED COMPANY OF THIS SIDE WHERE ONE PERSON IS BASICALLY UNREVALUABLE BY ANYBODY INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

A SIMPLE THING TO DO TOMORROW WOULD BE FOR CONGRESS TO MAKE THAT NOT ALLOWED SO AT LEAST THE COMPANY COULD BEHAVE LIKE EVERY OTHER PUBLICLY-TRADED COMPANY, AND WORK OUT ITS PROBLEMS TO THE STANDARDS OF A PUBLIC COMPANY AS OPPOSED TO THE EGO ON ONE PARTICULAR PERSON, WHO IS FOCUSED ON GROWTH OVER EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> Braude: 2018 SENATOR HATCH AND MARK ZUCKERBERG, HERE IT IS.

>> HOW DO YOU SUSTAIN A BUSINESS MODEL IN WHICH USERS DON'T PAY FOR YOUR SERVICE?

>> SENATOR, WE RUN ADS.

>> Braude: DOES THAT NOT CAUSE YOU TO WORRY THAT CONGRESS DOESN'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO REGULATE THIS BUSINESS IN SAY FASHION, LAWRENCE LESSIG?

>> IT TERRIFIES ME, BUT I DON'T THINK SENATOR HATCH IS A MEASURE OF CONGRESS.

I THINK THE REAL PROBLEM TO CONGRESS IS A PROBLEM THAT YOU AND I, JIM, HAVE TALKED ABOUT DOZENS OF TIMES.

IT IS A DEEPLY CORRUPT BUSINESS.

THE HEARING THAT FRANCES PARTICIPATED IN HAD JUST AS MANY REPUBLICANS STANDING UP TO SAY THIS IS A PROBLEM AS DEMOCRATS.

BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS, EVEN IF THEY COME UP WITH GOOD SOLUTIONS, AND MANY OF THEM ARE TALKING ABOUT GOOD SOLUTIONS, THE BROKENNESS OF THIS SYSTEM MEANS IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE CONGRESS ADOPTING THEM BECAUSE SILICONE VALLEY MONEY CAN STEP IN AND BLOCK REAL REFORM.

>> Braude: I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: "THE BIG QUIT," "THE GREAT RESIGNATION," WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, THE BOTTOM LINE IS CLEAR: WORKERS HAVE BEEN LEAVING THEIR JOBS IN DROVES SINCE THE START OF THE PANDEMIC, BOTH BY CHOICE AND BY CIRCUMSTANCE.

BUT AS PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR FARAH STOCKMAN HIGHLIGHTS, THAT KIND OF DRAMATIC CHANGE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S FORCED ON A WORKER, CAN SHAKE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THEIR IDENTITY, AND THAT'S BEEN A REALITY FOR MANY SINCE LONG BEFORE COVID-19.

"AMERICAN MADE: WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHEN WORK DISAPPEARS," FOLLOWS THREE PEOPLE IN INDIANA WHO LOST THEIR LONG-TIME JOBS WHEN THEIR FACTORY, THE REXNORD MANUFACTURING PLANT, RELOCATED TO MEXICO.

YOU MAY REMEMBER THE COMPANY FROM WHEN DONALD TRUMP PUBLICLY CALLED IT OUT DURING HIS 2016 CAMPAIGN FOR "RATHER VICIOUSLY FIRING ALL OF ITS 300 WORKERS."

THEN DECLARING, "THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER OUR COUNTRY!

NO MORE!"

BUT MOVE THEY DID, ENDING CAREERS AND DEEPLY CHANGING HUNDREDS OF LIVES IN THE PROCESS.

FARAH STOCKMAN IS A MEMBER OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES" EDITORIAL BOARD, FORMERLY OF "THE BOSTON GLOBE," AND SHE JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS, FARAH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME AND FOR READING IT.

>> Braude: YOU TELL THE STORY OF SHANNON MULCAHI -- YOU TELL THE LIVES OF ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

CAN YOU GIVE US BRIEF BIOS OF THE THREE?

>> YEAH.

LET ME TAKE A STEP BACK AND SAY I STARTED THIS BOOK ON ELECTION NIGHT, ESSENTIALLY, OF 2016BECAUSE I WAS STUNNED THAT SO MANY AMERICANS HAD VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.

I GREW UP IN MICHIGAN, THE RUSTBELT, AND WHEN I STARTED ASKING AROUND ABOUT WHY TRUMP, PEOPLE KEPT SAYING, HE IS GOING TO SAVE MY JOB, HE IS GOING TO BRING THE FACTORIES BACK.

SO FOR ABOUT SEVEN MONTHS, AS IT SHUT DOWN AND MOVED TO MEXICO -- TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT DOES THAT FEEL LIKE, TO BE TOLD THAT YOUR JOB IS GOING AWAY BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE ARE GOING TO DO IT CHEAPER.

I FOLLOWED SHOOPTION, SHANNON, WHO WAS IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP BUT WAS ABLE TO LEAVE A VIOLENT MAN BECAUSE OF HER WORK IN THE FACTORY.

AND HE WORRIED HER WAY UP, ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AND HIGHLY-PAID JOBS.

SHE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST WOMEN TO EVER OPERATE THE FURNACES THERE.

I ALSO FOLLOWED WALLY HALL, WHO WAS A BLACK MAN, WHO SERVED A STINT IN PRISON, AND HE WAS ABLE TO GET HIS LIFE BACK ON TRACK BECAUSE OF THE JOB IN THE FACTORY.

AFTER THE FACTORY CLOSED, HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST OPTIMISTIC PEOPLE I EVER MET, AND HE WANTED TO START A BARBECUE BUSINESS, AND I REALLY WANTED TO FOLLOW HIM TO SEE IF HE ACTUALLY DID IT.

AND THE LAST PERSON I FOLLOWED WAS JOHN FELTNER, WHO WAS THE UNION VICE PRESIDENT, WHITE MAN, GRANDSON OF COAL MILES AN HOUR,MILES ANMINERS,AND I FOLLOWED HIM TO SEE WHERE DOES HE GO AFTER THE FACTORY CLOSES.

>> Braude: I ALWAYS WONDERED NOT ABOUT HOW THE WORKERS FELT ABOUT THEIR BOSS, BUT HOW THEY FELT ABOUT THE WORKERS WHO WERE REPLACING THEM.

AND IN THIS CASE, IT IS ON STEROIDS BECAUSE THESE WORKERS HAD TO TRAIN THE WORKERS WHO WOULD BE REPLACING THEM IN MEXICO.

THERE WASN'T A MONOLITHIC RESPONSES AT ALL, WAS THERE?

>> RIGHT.

SO JOHN, THE DIE-HARD UNION GUY, WENT THROUGH THE PLANT SAYING, OKAY, LET'S STAND TOGETHER AS A UNION AND REFUSE TO TRAIN OUR REPLACEMENTS.

THERE WAS A SENSE IF THEY DID THAT, THEY COULD HURT THE COMPANY AND MAYBE THEY COULD BUY SOME TIME.

AND THE BLACK WORKERS WERE KIND OF LIKE -- MANY OF THEM THOUGHT THAT WAS RACISM, NOT TO TRAIN THE MEXICANS, TO REFUSE THE TRAIN THE MEXICANS.

THE EARLIEST PEOPLE TO RAISE THEIR HANDS TO TRAIN WERE BLACK WORKERS WHO SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO STOP THE PLANT FROM MOVING.

WE MIGHT AS WELL GET THIS BONUS.

AND A LOT OF THE WOMEN, TOO, THEY REMEMBERED THAT IT HAD NOT BEEN THAT LONG AGO WHEN THE WHITE MEN HAD REFUSED TO TRAIN THEM.

SO IT WAS REALLY, LIKE, THERE ARE DIFFERENT IDENTITIES THAT MADE IT HARD FOR THE UNION TO STAND STRONG AND UNITED AS THE PLANT WAS CLOSING.

>> Braude: ONE OF THE REASONS I COULDN'T PUT THE BOOK DOWN BESIDES HOW INTERESTING THESE THREE WERE, BECAUSE I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, AND I'M GOING TO LET THE PEOPLE BUY THE BOOK AND FIND OUT THAT, BUT I FOUND ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS IS YOU IN THIS BOOK.

I MEAN, YOU INTRODUCE THE READER TO YOU RIGHT AWAY AS THE PRIVILEGED KID OF TWO TENURED COLLEGE PROFESSORS.

YOU'RE A HARVARD KID -- I ASSUME MOST LOCAL PEOPLE KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT YOU.

HOW WAS YOUR LIFE CHANGED BY YEARS OF INTERACTION WITH THEM AND ALL OF THIS?

>> IT WAS A HUGE EDUCATION FOR ME.

IT WAS A HUGE EDUCATION.

I -- MY MOTHER GREW UP IN JIM CROW, MISSISSIPPI.

MY MOTHER IS A BLACK WOMAN FROM THE SOUTH, AND SO I WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE RACIAL BARRIERS THAT STILL EXIST IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE DISPARITIES THAT ARE STILL UNACCEPTABLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT I HAD NEVER REALLY GRAPPLED WITH THE CLASS ISSUE.

WE KIND OF PRETEND IN AMERICA THAT CLASS DOESN'T EXIST, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT SURE DOES.

AND IT WAS A BIG -- IT WAS A BIG REALIZATION TO ME THAT MOST DECISIONS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE MADE BY PEOPLE WITH COLLEGE DEGREES, EVEN LAW DEGREES, AND THAT, YES, WE ARE A MINORITY.

WE REPRESENT ONLY A THIRD OF AMERICAN ADULTS.

TWO-THIRDS OF AMERICAN ADULTS DON'T HAVE A B.A.

TO ME, YOU COULD JUST SEE HOW THE LAWS AND POLICIES THAT EVEN WELL-INTENTIONED PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HELPING THE WORKING CLASS, IT IS NOT ALWAYS WHAT THESE WORKING PEOPLE WANT.

>> Braude: DO YOU THINK THEIR PERSPECTIVE AS A THREESOME, AND I KNOW THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS -- DO YOU THINK THEIR PERSPECTIVE OF THE CHILD OF TWO TENURED PROFESSORS CHANGED THROUGH THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

I REMEMBER SHANNON TELLING ME ONCE, LIKE, I WONDER WHAT MY LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE IF MY PARENTS HAD BEEN LIKE YOUR PARENTS.

SHE GREW UP IN A TRAILER PARK, SHE SUFFERED ABUSE FROM HER STEPFATHER.

YOU KNOW, SHE JUST HAD EVERY TERRIBLE THING, AND SHE IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AGE AS ME.

AND SO IT WAS SO EASY TO SEE, OKAY, I WAS GOING OFF TO COLLEGE.

SHE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

I WAS HIRED AT "THE BOSTON GLOBE," SHE WAS HIRED AT THE FACTORY AS A JANITOR.

I'M AT THE "NEW YORK TIMES" NOW, AND HER JOB IS GOING AWAY.

AND SO IT WAS REALLY EASY TO SORT OF LOOK AND SEE HOW -- TO GRAPPLE WITH MY OWN EDUCATIONAL PRIVILEGE.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS AWAY.

MY MAJOR TAKE-AWAY FROM THIS BOOK IS THE PAYCHECK, THAT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT THING WORKERS TAKE AWAY FROM THEIR JOBS -- IS THAT YOURS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WORK WAS TO THEM -- THE FACTORY JOB WAS A FRATERNITY, IT WAS A FAMILY HEIRLOOM, IT WAS A STATUS SYMBOL.

SO IT IS EASY TO SEE HOW THE LOSS OF TO IDENTITY CAN UP END OUR POLL TICKS.

>> Braude: IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT BOOK.

CONGRATULATIONS.

AND I URGE EVERYBODY TO PICK IT UP.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU, FARAH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "AMERICAN MADE: WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHEN WORK DISAPPEARS."

NEXT UP, LOCAL MUSIC HISTORY WILL BE MADE THIS WEEK WHEN THE BOSTON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA FEATURES ITS FIRST-EVER ELECTRIC BASS SOLOIST IN THE ORGANIZATION'S 141-YEAR HISTORY.

FIVE-TIME GRAMMY-WINNING ELECTRIC BASSIST AND FOUNDING MEMBER OF BELA FLECK AND THE FLECKTONES, VICTOR WOOTEN, WILL SHOWCASE HIS ORIGINAL CONCERTO, "LA LECCIÍON TRES," OR "THE THIRD LESSON," WHICH BUILDS ON THE WORK OF HIS 2008 MUSICAL-PHILOSOPHICAL NOVEL AND AUDIOBOOK CALLED "THE MUSIC LESSON."

♪♪ WOOTEN HAS LONG FOCUSED ON THE INTERSECTION OF MUSIC AND NATURE, INCLUDING THROUGH HIS LECTURES AT UNIVERSITIES AND SPIRITUAL CENTERS AND THE FORMATION OF HIS CENTER FOR MUSIC AND NATURE IN TENNESSEE, A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF MUSIC CAMP, NOW IN ITS 22nd YEAR.

WOOTEN WILL BE PERFORMING AT SYMPHONY HALL TOMORROW THROUGH SUNDAY UNDER THE BATON OF THOMAS WILKINS, THE B.S.O.

'S ARTISTIC ADVISOR FOR EDUCATION AND COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT, AND BOTH JOIN ME NOW.

>> Braude: VICTOR, GREAT TO MEET YOU.

TOM, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU AS WELL.

>> Braude: VICTOR, I'M LISTENING TO BELA FLECK AND THE FLECKTONES, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT JOURNEY -- I THINK IT WAS "SINSINESTOR MINISTER."

WAS THAT HARD FOR YOU?

>> YEAH, A LITTLE BIT.

I DIDN'T THINK I WAS READY FOR IT WHEN I FIRST GOT ASKED TO JOIN THIS CLASSICAL PARTY THAT A LOT OF MY FRIENDS HAVE ENTERED.

BUT WITH THE HELP OF A BUNCH OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING MR. WILKINS, WHO I'VE KNOWN SINCE THE '70s, THEY HELPED ME.

>> Braude: VICTOR, WHY IS THE TITLE IN SPANISH?

>> BECAUSE IT SOUNDED COOLER THAN "THE LESSON THREE."

>> Braude: IS THAT TRUE OR NOT TRUE?

[LAUGHTER] >> IT IS VERY TRUE.

[LAUGHTER] >> I'M VERY BAD WITH TITLES.

AND MY HEAD WAS IN THE MUSIC.

AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS LIKE WE HAVE TO PUT SOMETHING IN OUR BOOKLET.

WE NEED A TITLE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I JUST CAME UP WITH THE LESSON THREE, BUT THAT SOUNDED KIND OF CORNY, SO I DID IT IN SPANISH.

BECAUSE I'VE BEEN TRYING TO LEARN SPANISH FOR ABOUT 40 YEARS.

>> Braude: IT WORKED FOR ME.

TOM, YOU'RE THE INITIATOR OF THIS COLLABORATION.

AS VICTOR HAS SAID, YOU GUYS HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR QUITE A WHILE.

DID THIS WORK FOR YOU AS SOON AS YOU HEARD ABOUT IT?

>> OH, YEAH.

I -- INTERESTINGLY, WHEN WE WERE PUTTING THIS PROGRAM TOGETHER, I KNEW I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT BECAUSE I LIKE DOING THAT.

AND FOR SOME REASON VICTOR'S NAME JUST POPPED INTO MY HEAD.

SO I JUST SENT HIM A TEXT, LIKE RIGHT AWAY, AND SAID, DUDE, WHERE ARE YOU?

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

AND CAN WE DO THIS?

I WAS STUDYING TO DO OTHER CONCERTO THAT THE WORLD KNEW ABOUT, AND HE SAID, I JUST FINISHED MY OWN CONCERTO, AND HE SAID, LET'S DO THAT.

AND THAT'S HOW WE GOT HERE.

>> Braude: DID HE RESPOND TO YOUR TEXT IN SPANISH OR ENGLISH, TOM?

[LAUGHTER] >> Braude: THIS IS A NEW THING FOR YOUR ORCHESTRA, TOO.

HOW DID THE PLAYERS REACT TO THIS?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, THEY LOVED DOING SOMETHING THEY HAVEN'T DONE BEFORE.

AND I LOVE THAT ABOUT THESE PLAYERS.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE PLAYED ALL OF THE STANDARD CONCERTOs FOREVER, AND THE MINUTE YOU PUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN FRONT OF THEM, THEY LIGHT UP.

THE ENTIRE PROGRAM IS MUSIC THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED BEFORE, AS WAS MY LAST CONCERT WITH THEM.

SO THEY'RE OPEN AND HUNGRY AND READY, AND THEY'RE HAVING A LOT OF FUN.

>> Braude: IT IS ALL OF THE MUSIC OF BLACK COMPOSERS, TOM, IS THAT TRUE?

>> THAT'S TRUE, ALTHOUGH ONE IS AN ENGLISH/BLACK COMPOSER.

>> Braude: VICTOR, MY UNDERSTANDING IS WHILE YOU'RE PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH AN INSTRUMENT THAT YOU PLAY INCREDIBLY WELL, BUT THE INSTRUMENT FOR THIS IS A NEW CREATION.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YOU ARE CORRECT.

IN SIXTH GRADE I STARTED PLAYING CELLO.

AFTER I PLAYED ELECTRIC BASS, I GOT INTO THE MIDDLE SCHOOL ORCHESTRA, AND SINCE THAT TIME, I'VE LOVED THE SOUND OF THE BOW.

AND MY ELECTRIC BASS CAN'T MAKE THAT SOUND.

DECADES LATER, I FINALLY GOT A BASS MADE WHERE I HOLD IT LIKE NORMAL, BUT I B.O.E.BOW IT.

>> Braude: THIS IS ALMOST AN EMBARRASSING QUESTION TO ASK SOMEBODY OF YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS, BUT DOES THAT MAKE YOU NERVOUS, VICTOR, THAT YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING -- >> YES.

>> Braude: REALLY?

DOES IT?

>> YEAH.

MY WORLD IS JAZZ OR R & B, MAKING PEOPLE DANCE.

I GET TO MAKE UP MY PART.

BUT NOW TOM KNOWS EVERY NOTE THAT I'VE GOT TO PLAY.

SO I HAVE TO LEARN THIS THING FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END.

I'M NOT USED TO THAT.

[LAUGHTER] >> AND, PLUS, IT IS LEGENDARY BOSTON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA.

SO THIS IS A DIFFERENT CROWD THAN WHAT I'M USED TO.

>> Braude: TOM, I HATE TO ASK YOU THIS IN FRONT OF THE GUY HIMSELF, BUT IS HE THE BEST BASS PLAYER THERE IS?

THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS, IT APPEARS.

>> HE HAS BEEN THE BEST BASS PLAYER THERE IS SINCE HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD AND I FIRST MET HIM.

HIS BROTHER, ROY, AND I WERE THE CONTEMPORARIES, AND HE WAS THIS RUNNY KID HANGING OUT WITH US, WHO PLAYED THE BOOZES.

BASS.

I WAS ACTUALLY HIS SUBSTITUTE TEACHER.

>> Braude: AS I SAID, VICTOR'S PERFORMANCE IS A FIRST, AND HASN'T HAPPEN BEFORE, AND AS WE DISCUSSED BEFORE, THE FIRST BLACK CONDUCTOR OF THE BOSTON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA WAS YOU.

ARE THESE CHANGES ON THE STAGE TRICKLING DOWN TO LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS IN TERMS OF HOW THEY VIEW SYMPHONY HALLS AROUND THIS COUNTRY?

ARE THEY?

>> YEAH, I THINK SO.

AND I THINK IT IS A MULTI-PRONGED APPROACH.

IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THEM SEEING ME ON STAGE, BUT IT IS ALSO ABOUT THEM HEARING OTHER KINDS OF MUSIC ON STAGE, ESPECIALLY MUSIC THAT, IN VICTOR'S CASE, FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE IN THE AUDIENCE, THEY ARE THERE BECAUSE VICTOR IS THERE.

SO TO SEE THOSE TWO WORLDS COME TOGETHER SO BEAUTIFULLY, I THINK, IS A MESSAGE TO EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM THAT WE ARE REALLY MORE ABOUT REMOVING THE LABELS AND REMOVING THE OBSTACLES TO BEING IN THAT ROOM THAN WE ARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Braude: VICTOR, BEFORE YOU GO, YOU MENTIONED OBVIOUSLY JAZZ A MINUTE AGO.

IS THERE A COMMON THREAD THROUGH THE WORLD OF JAZZ AND THE WORLD OF CLASSICAL MUSIC, OR NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET?

>> NO, NO, THEY SHOULD DEFINITELY MEET BECAUSE IT IS ALL MADE UP OUT OF THE SAME INGREDIENTS.

JAZZ IS SO COOL IT GETS A 13th NOTE.

WE'RE WORKING OFF THE SAME INGREDIENTS.

AND MUSIC IS A GREAT REPRESENTATION OF HOW LIFE SHOULD BE LIVED.

THINK ABOUT IT, JIM, AN ORCHESTRA IS BUILT OUT OF DIFFERENCES.

WE DON'T FORCE THE FLUTE TO BE LIKE A SNARE DRUM.

WE DON'T FORCE THE BASS PLAYER TO BE LIKE THE TROMBONE.

WE KNOW THAT THE ORCHESTRA IS BETTER BECAUSE ALL OF THE INSTRUMENTS ARE DIFFERENT.

ISN'T THAT THE WAY LIFE SHOULD BE?

WE WORK TOGETHER AND IN THE END, NOBODY LOSES OR WINS; WE ALL WIN.

SO MUSIC IS A GREAT WAY TO SHOW HOW LIFE SHOULD BE.

>> I'VE ACTUALLY SAID IT IS THE BEST REPRESENTATION OF COMMUNITY THAT WE IN OUR EXISTENCE, A GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS WORKING TOGETHER FOR A COMMON GOOD.

>> Braude: BEAUTIFULLY SAID.

IN THE SPIRIT OF VICTOR WOOTEN, BUENAS NOCHES TO BOTH OF YOU.

CONGRATULATIONS.

I LOOK FORWARD TO IT.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Braude: >> Braude: YOU CAN CATCH VICTOR WOOTEN AND THOMAS WILKINS, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE BOSTON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA, TOMORROW THROUGH SUNDAY.

TICKETS ARE AVAILABLE NOW AT BSO.dot.org.

THERE WILL ALSO BE A LIVESTREAM ON SATURDAY NIGHT, WHICH YOU CAN FIND AT BSO.ORG/now AND THAT RECORDING WILL BE AVAILABLE ON DEEMED FROM NOVEMBER 11 TO DECEMBER 11.

THAT'S IT IS FOR TONIGHT'S.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Gro