The firing of a public safety official sows doubts about the future of Vermont's bias free policing work plus how the federal government shutdown is impacting Vermonters.

And after more than a decade of delays and turmoil, the redevelopment of Burlington's downtown mall is nearing completion.

All that and more ahead on Vermont this week.

From the Vermont public studio in Winooski, this is Vermont this Week, made possible in part by the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

Here's moderator Mitch Wertlieb.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I'm Mitch Werrlieb.

It's Friday, October 3rd, and with us on the panel today, we have Pete Hirschfeld from Vermont Public, Calvin Cutler from WCAX and Courtney Lamdin from Seven Days.

Thank you all so much for being here today.

Boy, we have a lot to talk about.

Some really interesting stories.

I want to start with, as we talked about at the top there, the future of Vermont's bias free policing work being called into question.

There was a firing of an official this week at the Department of Public Safety.

This is somebody who was hired to, you know, build some trust with, communities of color in Vermont minority communities.

Let's hear first from, the governor about, this firing and then from the employee who was let go.

We still believe in the in the premise of fair and impartial policing, and we will continue to follow through on that, at will.

They don't owe me a reason legally.

And as far as, the communities with whom we work are concerned, they do have a time, a reason.

It would be very weird not to see a link between thi and current national politics.

All right, Peter, still there's a lot to unpack there.

Let's talk about the gentleman who was fired, what his role was and what the reason was given, if any, for why he was let go.

Etan.

That's right.

And Longo has been involved in fair and impartial policing for well over a decade.

And he started that work as a volunteer, actually, he was training, recruits at the police academy on implicit bias.

Has spent years doing this.

About five years ago, he was hired by Vermont State Police to serve as co-director of the Fair and Impartial Policing Program, where he won some accolades in 2022.

He was, recognize for his outstanding contribution, contributions and dedication to fair and impartial policing.

Now, certain Longo told me that as recently as three weeks ago, he was told that they were very satisfied with his work, which was why it was so surprising to him when, last week, he was called into a meeting with Public Safet Commissioner Jennifer Morrison and told that he was no longer going to be working at VSP, that his role had been terminated.

And Nasreddin Longo says he was not given an answer for why that was happening.

So no reason apparently, given, Kelvin Cutler, you've been covering this story as well.

Again, a person who seemed to have been doing a very good job here.

What about what he was saying there in the clip about.

It's hard to not see this tied up with national politics.

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's fair to say that, you know, where we were five, ten years ago when it comes to equity, policing, social justice, you know, accountability for police.

We're in a much different spot with the new Trump administration.

There's been a lot of changing attitudes and philosophies about immigration, crime, policing, etc.. And so, Nasreddin Longo sees this as a fundamental shift from the state potentially turning its back on, a lot of the work that's been done in the last five, ten years with the fair and impartial policing policy, you know, to Pete's point, we never got an official reason as to to why he was fired.

You know, we asked Governor Phil Scott about this, and we heard it in the clip there from from the governor who said, you know, we are still committed to fair and impartial policing.

You know, he said that this was a, internal H.R.

Or human resources issue and that he wasn't able to to comment on it.

But he said that this was not, you know, related to, to National politics.

But you ask many in that sphere and in that are doing this work on the ground.

It's it's for them.

It's tough not to see a connection.

It's we should be clear.

There's no hard evidence at all that there is a link between the anti-de rhetoric that we're hearing at the federal level and what happened to Nasreddin long ago here in Vermont.

But, he was steeped in these issues in ways that few other people in Vermont are.

Up until recently, he wa the chair of an advisory panel to the legislature that was examining racial disparities in the criminal and juvenile justice systems.

He had been working with the the marginalized communities at this program is designed to build bridges with for many, many years.

And that is why when he was fired, we heard such an outcry from those communities.

Two prominent members of Vermont's Fair and Impartial Policing Committee said they were deeply disturbed by this, that, you couldn't really hope to find somebody better to fill this role.

And then Nasreddin Longo.

So a lot of confusion and and the fact that it came as a surprise, especially, I think, has led people that have been involved in this work for decades in some instances, to question whether or not the Scott administration is as committed to i as as they previously thought, but I will I will also add that the governor one of the questions we had for him is whether state police plan to refill this role.

And he says he believes that Vermont State Police do plan to fill this role.

We don't know a timeline, and we don't know who is going to be installed in this co-director role.

But to your point, you know, some some do see a link here, but that's sort of key, isn't it?

If they're going to refill the position, why why fire somebody who, as Pete was saying, had really gotten accolades for the job?

Everybody seemed to like this person.

There was reaction with the Department of Public Safety itself saying, this is baffling.

Yeah.

I don't know if we'll actually ever get, insight into that, to, to be honest with you, Mitch.

And I think that's one of the more puzzling parts about this story.

But as you mentioned, I mean, they do plan to fill the role.

And who knows, we may never know.

Let's talk about another role that is being filled.

Courtney Lambton in Burlington, Vermont's largest city.

There's a new director of racial equity.

Who is this?

And, what will she be doing?

Who she replacing?

Yeah.

So her name is Doctor Kelly Perkins.

She comes, most recently from a nonprofit profit in the Upper Valley.

But she has a lot of experience working in higher education and sort of residential life, student life type roles.

She obviously has a doctorate.

She is replacing really becoming the most recent director for a department that has had a lot of instability since it was formed in 2019.

She is becoming the I think it's the third director in six years for the department.

The previous leaders left for different reasons.

I don't know if they're I don't think you can necessarily connect those things, but what is true is that this is an issue, you know, equity.

Inclusion is something that Burlington has committed to.

Like you, all we're talking about with the governor, Mayor Mulvaney has said she is committe to continuing this department, even though it came up as a conversation piece in these really tough budget conversations that Burlington was having some people questioned if that should be something that Burlington should still do.

And Emma said, yes, I want to keep it.

And just now found someone to lead the department.

Some other sort of, recently breaking news to the, mayor is going to have to do some othe replacing on her staff.

Right.

There are other folks leaving.

Who's leaving?

Yeah, we just found this out yesterday.

Three people, three ke staffers in the mayor's office have all given their notice around the same time.

The the deputy chief of staff, Joe McGee, is one of them.

He was a former, Burlington city councilor.

He worked on the mayor's, campaign last year.

He is leaving.

Then there's the senior advisor on public safety.

That is Ingrid Jonas, who's a retired Vermont State police commander.

Long, you know, well-respected career in law enforcement who was brought in to, you know, streamline some of the city's kind of fractured responses to public safety.

And then the last one is, the special assistant to end homelessness.

It's a very weighty title, to have on your shoulders, but, that Sarah Russell and the city said she got a job with another nonprofit.

But obviously, particularly for, Ingrid and Sarah, those two women are in charge of handling some of the most pressing issues that we're seeing in Burlington right now community safety and homelessness.

And so we've heard from the city that Ingrid's position won't be refilled.

It was always going to be a temporary thing, but I think it's ending perhaps sooner than people expected.

And they will fill Sarah Russell's position.

So, we'll just have to wait and see.

Yeah.

There's going to be a lot of, busy, busy talk, happening, there in Burlington, for sure.

Let's talk about the the other big story that's happening.

It's affecting Vermont, but it's affecting the entire nation as we're talking right now.

At the time of this taping, the the federal government is shut down.

This could change by the time you're actually watching this.

We just don't know.

Events moved so quickly with this.

But at the moment we're talking there is a federal government shutdown, first one since 2018.

The Democrats are digging their heels in on this.

They're not passing the continuing resolution.

Let's hear what Senator Bernie Sanders has had to say about why the Democrats have this position.

I don't want to shock the people in Vermont, but sometimes, occasionally Trump lies.

The law is very clear.

Undocumented people cannot get Medicaid, cannot get Medicare do not have access to the ACA.

The people who are going to be hurt are 45,000 people in the state of Vermont.

They're going to lose their health insurance.

They're not undocumented.

31,000 Vermonters are going to see their premiums double.

Now, that's what these guys don't want to talk about.

It.

Calvin Cutler for those who may just be sort of like dropping in from space and hearing that, what is Bernie Sanders talking about?

Why is health care tied up with this federal government shutdown?

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a continuing resolution in the budget packag that passed through the House.

It's now in the Senate.

It does not include a extension of, affordable Care Act subsidies, which have really been keeping costs dow for many Americans, Vermonters and has been making it more accessible to, to have health insurance.

There is no extension of that right now.

And that's set to expire at the end of the year.

Democrats, who are in the minority and don't control any chambers in the Congress, are using this as really the main wedge, the main bargaining chip, that they have to try to force Republicans to have concessions.

But it's a really it's a double edged sword here.

In terms of, you know, the political calculus that that Democrats are making it's a little bit of a gamble.

I think it's fair to say, I don't want to get too much into the weeds with, you know, the D.C.

politics of all of this.

But this potentially could have a real impact o on Vermonters and health care, if these subsidies are not, refilled and extended, and it comes you know, we've talked so much on this show about, you know, the challenges that Vermont's health care system, the solvency of insurance companies, the affordability, access, it's a really tough time for for Vermonters accessing health care.

Obviously, it's a political gamble.

Any time you're talking about a government shutdown, the question is who's going to take blame?

The Democrats however, at this exact moment, don't have a whole lot to lose, right?

We have seen them underwater in numerous national polls.

I saw one recently that showed a 63% disapproval rate for congressional Democrats.

So, what they have been doing has not been resonating with the electorate at large messaging, the messaging.

They've also been, without a leverage point for, for basically the last eight months.

Right now they have one.

It seems pretty clear, based on conversations with members of the delegation, that they felt like we had to do something different.

Here's our opportunity to do that.

And to Bernie Sanders is one of the people leading this charge right now.

That wing of the party, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, have been pushing for a more aggressive, assertive posture from Democrats.

And we really see Sanders as one of the people in Congress who is very much out front on this.

Yeah.

Can I just ask this, though, because I can remember back when in Trump's first term, there was a concerted effort by Republicans to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

There was a large public response to that.

They did not want it repealed.

So why then, would this not be perhaps a winning issue for Democrats to to plant their flag?

That's a great question.

I you know, I asked Congresswoman Beck about, that this morning.

And basically, you know, she said that at the end of the day, there's no trust in Congress right now.

And they are not able to work with Republicans.

I think there's two ways that you can, from Democrats perspective, that you can take this.

The way that they are choosing is, you know, let's go with the shutdown and, you know, try to use that as a as leverage as a negotiating chip or, you know, the alternative being, okay, let's let these, subsidies expire and let's, you know, have Americans feel the pain, of of having increased health care costs and then take that to the voters, take that to, the, you know, and use that agains Republicans in the midterms or in, you know, the next presidential election.

That's not the tack that we're seeing right now.

You know, there is a political calculus that is being made to extend this shutdown.

We'll see how long it will go.

It's the last shutdown that we had.

It was in 2018, 2019.

That was 35 days.

That had a pretty prolific impact on on Americans.

We can talk a little bit about sort of the the brass tacks of what it means here in Vermont.

Just at this bit in my next question, because I do want to know, like, yeah, what effect is this going to have on federal workers here or the state at large?

I talked to the Public Assets Institute that did some polling right before the DOJ's cuts back, in the spring.

They said that there's about 6600 federal workers.

I mean, these are everybody from the TSA, the V.A., Army National Guard, USDA Small Business Administration, just a galaxy of of government agencies, because of where Vermont sits.

And we're close to the border, and we have homeland security and the military most we don't know exactly how many, but it's fair to say most of our federal workers will stay on the job.

Some with pay, some without pay, or excuse me, with without pay.

That is, but there's going to be a lot of folks that are going to be going without pay and the forward services, the forward facing services to Vermonters, the SBA, the USDA, you know, those are going to be, paused.

And, you know, it's one of these things the longer the shutdown lingers, the more Vermonters will feel it are earmarks.

It could be at risk for Vermont, you know, potentially tens, hundreds of millions of dollars.

And, you know, there are social safety net programs.

Quick snap.

Those aren't going to be cut off yet.

But if this goes on for more than 4 or 5 weeks, there is the there is the potential that we see an interruption in critical, life preserving, benefits that people rely on.

And then there's also the broader economic issue.

Right.

There are high ranking officials in the Scott administration.

There are economists I've spoken to that say Vermont's economy is in a very tenuous spot right now.

We heard economists for the legislature in the administration just a couple months ago talk about how uncertain things are and how susceptible the state economy is to, unexpected things happening.

And so that's another concern that the macroeconomics of this could, could become really bad really quickly if it lingers too long.

We've talked about our economy from the immigration perspective of, you know, raids on dairy farms.

And I think last week in Hardwick, there was one on a construction site and people were detained.

So there's the labor side of this.

But also just looking at, how many Vermont companies have contracts with the federal government during the shutdown?

They will not be paid.

I was talking with the Chamber of Commerce.

There's $359 million in government contracts to manufacturers, high tech chip makers, etc.

that right now are not going forward.

And the longer that goes on, that could affect employees of those specific companies.

And that's cash flow that isn't moving through the economy.

So it's just there's a lot of ripple effects, to to a shutdown here.

And that makes, you know, the pressure, especially in the Senate, even more, it's an unbelievably dangerous game of chicken is what it sounds like at this point.

And we're just going to have to see where this goes.

I appreciate the updates on both of the, both of you on those stories.

Courtney, Lindsay, I want to circle back to you on a Burlington story.

That's really a big deal, given how much how long this took the hit, as it has been not so affectionately known, is kind of no more.

We're talking about this huge redevelopment project in downtown Burlington.

The first phase of it is now up and running.

What can you tell us about that and what is still left to be done?

Yeah.

So absolutely, this is the development that was for years known as CityPlace.

I will have a hard time remembering now to call it Burlington Square.

So they renamed it, maybe to kind of clear the air, I don't know, it's like a new beginning for them.

But this project has gone through lawsuits, ownership, ownership changes, public opposition, zoning, you know, all of this stuff.

And finally, this month, the first of two towers in this, on this lot, which is right in the center of downtown, opened.

And this tower in particular has 53 apartments in it.

And a very swanky, if I might say, hotel.

It's an AC Marriott.

Feels very metropolitan.

And you know, the question with now that it's open is, is who can afford to live there?

Will people want to live downtown in a place that's kind of struggling with many social issues?

You know, I got some data when I was reporting on this to compare the rents at this, new tower to others in Chittenden County.

So I found that most new, newly built, two bedrooms are going for between 2300 and $2800 per month.

There are outliers.

I mean, that alone sounds expensive.

It's higher than my mortgage, for sure.

But there are outlier for complexes that have, like, really great views or other amenities.

And Burlington Square is for sure one of those, two bedrooms.

There range from 3650 to $6800 a month.

The latter.

Yeah.

Eye popping numbers.

So the latter is for a unit on the, the kind of rooftop.

So you do get like near panoramic or just very incredible views and that's that's what they're asking.

When I talked to them last, they hadn't had too many people sign up yet.

It's been a couple of weeks.

They are going to start a new marketing push.

But that's that's what it's looking like not to worry, though, because there are supposed to be some affordable housing units attached to this project.

Two.

Right.

Those are up and running, aren't they?

No.

Yes.

So, yes, you're alluding to an ordinance in Burlington that requires, developers of buildings of certain a certain size to build a percentage of what they call inclusionary units or affordable units.

It's tied to people's income and all of that.

The developers made a deal with the city to include all of those units in the second tower.

That is not yet built.

Right now, it is just a steel frame.

And the last I checked, they don't have financing for the building.

I think that was supposed t come through later this month.

You mean financing for for finishing that that steel tower?

Yes.

So you can imagine that city officials might be feeling a little queasy about the likelihood of these opening.

When I spoke to the developers, they said, you know, we have to do it.

We will do it.

We just might need a little bit more time.

The city's deadline, I think they're asking for like six more months from whatever their deadline is.

They want to extend it into like fall next year, I think.

At what time was the issue with the first phase of the project?

Right.

It just kept taking so long.

It did keep taking so long.

It did.

And I think, you know, I think we'll just have to see like this is, like I said, a new project team.

These are local guys.

And what one of them said to me, Dave Farrington is like, you know, if we don't do this, like, we won't survive.

Like, our reputation won't survive in this town.

So it is not only do they have to do it, I think they do want to.

It's just a matter of when.

Wow.

It's tough to look under the hood because we don't know the finances.

We don't know, you know, the the math behind this.

But a lot of developers that I talk to, like on the statewide level, just recently there was a ribbon cutting and affordable housing development down in, on route seven, down in Shelburne.

Labor, lumber, construction materials, inflation.

It's a very tough time to, to be building.

And so, I mean, it makes sense, you know, again, we don't know the math of this, but it's understandable that, you know, building and especially a big building like this, there potentially could be delays here.

But Sheldon Proj project with 55 units, I believe, at a cost of over $50 million.

Or maybe it was 90 units, I don't know, it was 90, 94 point is an affordable housing complex where the average per unit cost at scal was over a half $1 million.

So building affordable housing, is not affordable, as it turns out.

And inevitably, somebody is going to be subsidizing the cost of that construction in order for for somebody of modest means to be able to live there.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

The other factors that always contribute to this are the cost of materials.

Tariffs, I'm sure play into this too, right?

I mean, it's just these these are not easy things.

And Courtney, to your point, you were mentioning how you know who's going to be able to afford those really expensive, apartments there, who's going to want to live, necessarily in downtown Burlington?

That brings us to the issue of the Overdose Prevention Center, which Burlington has the money for.

They've been talking about this for a while, a place where people can, actually use illegal drugs, under supervision so that they don't overdose and die, that that is the goal.

Right?

But where is this going to be?

Is it going to be what is the update on that situation?

Yeah.

So the the legislature eventually passed a bill, it survived the governor's veto and allocated $2.2 million to the city of Burlington to operate a two year pilot project, to have this overdose prevention center somewhere.

So now that they have the money, that is the question, where is it going to go?

And I think the debate will really be is it going to go downtown or not?

You know, and I think that is what people want to know.

There's arguments for that, right?

It's walkable.

The people who are already using in public spaces is is predominantly downtown.

So they want it to be in a place where the intended audience can access it.

There's public transportation.

There are other social services that are around there, but also local businesses in Burlington have been saying for year now that they can't they can't really, sustain any more of the kind of disorder that's downtown.

Now, whether the OPC, as they call it, will bring more of that downtown is open question.

Obviously, we don't know.

It's untested here.

There are studies across the country or across, you know, the world wher other centers operate that say more crime doesn't come to these areas.

One of them was actually written by the former police chief in Burlington, Randall Park.

So he's now a researcher on this thing.

I mean, but I think because it's the unknown, right?

People are don't know what to do with it.

And the optics to.

Right.

Yeah.

Because something could be working.

But if you see people using that there's a perception problem there.

There is.

And I think the argument that the proponents have made is that people are using now in City Hall Park, you know, in front of Galvin's apartment in Burlington, you know, in Old North End, this the idea is to give them a place to go so that the perception of Burlington could improve.

Right?

Like if these folks are not out on the street, maybe that would be a good thing.

And I guess the organizers say the people behind it, is a nonprofit in Burlington that will operate.

It says that they hope the center will include other amenities.

So like, kind of maybe like a place for people to kind of just hang out, after they consume drugs, there will be access to recovery services.

So the idea isn't for it to just be a place to use and then spill back out onto the streets, but again, untested.

And go ahead, Gail, briefly.

Also, I'm just how would this fly in the Trump administration?

I that's the other kind of the federal piece of this.

Will will this even get off the ground I don't know.

Yeah.

And is there a date for this, by the way, is there any kind of like, you know, set date for when they want to have this set up or.

No.

Emma had said when the the legislation passed that she hoped to open it this year, but she's now realizing tha it's going to take much longer for that to happen and is not committing to a new date.

And the mayor's challenges just got more challenging in that sense because of losing some of those officials that we talked about earlier, though I will say she still does maintain a special assistant for the Overdose Prevention Center.

You guys.

Okay, so there is that.

But but all of the people are supposed to be working together and she's committed to it.

She is okay.

Yeah.

All right.

I will have to see where that one goes.

Yeah.

Incredible stuff going on all around.

Oh, by the way, if you're thinking of streaking in Burlington anytime soon, don't do it.

Because the city has now passed an ordinance banning nudity.

Right.

They have.

Okay, I got I got to change my plans for this weekend.

I did want to finish on this news that, Vermont has set a new record for the largest, state pumpkin ever grown, 1,814 pounds.

Go ahead and carve that for Halloween.

I think you can come up with something pretty great there.

I would go with Jabba the Hutt.

You folks, we're gonna have to leave it there for today.

I want to thank everyone for watching.

And thanks to our panel, Pete Hirschfeld from Vermont Public, Calvin Cutler from WCAX, and Courtney Lamdin from Seven Days.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb, thank you so much for tuning in.

I hope you'll join us next week as well for Vermont This Week.

In the meantime, have a great week.