>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WE APPEAR TO BE TURNING A CORNER ON COVID AGAIN.

BUT WITH ONGOING RESISTANCE TO VACCINES AND OTHER PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES FROM TENS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, IS THIS JUST ANOTHER TEMPORARY DIP IN A NEVER-ENDING CYCLE?

B.M.C.

'S DR. CASSANDRA PIERRE AND CAMBRIDGE HEALTH ALLIANCE'S DR. LAKSHMAN SWAMY JOIN ME ON THAT, WHAT'S NEXT FOR BOOSTER SHOTS, VACCINE MANDATES, AND MORE.

THEN, LATER, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR RANDALL KENNEDY ON HIS NEW ANTHOLOGY TWO DECADES IN THE MAKING.

IT'S CALLED, "SAY IT LOUD: ON RACE, LAW, HISTORY, AND CULTURE."

♪♪ >> Braude: COVID IS ONCE AGAIN IN RETREAT, ACCORDING TO THE "NEW YORK TIMES" THIS WEEK, WITH NEW CASES FALLING BY MORE THAN A THIRD IN THE PAST MONTH ACROSS THE NATION, AND SIMILARLY HERE AS WELL.

BUT WE'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE.

AD THIS TIME THE EXPERTS ARE SHOUTING LOUDER THAN EVER: THE ONLY WAY FOR IT TO STAY IN RETREAT IS IF WE ALL DO OUR PART, AS THE GREAT DR. FAUCI REITERATED AGAIN THIS WEEKEND.

>> THE BEST WAY TO ASSURE THAT WE'LL BE IN GOOD SHAPE AS WE GET INTO THE WINTER WOULD BE TO GET MORE AND MORE PEOPLE VACCINATED.

>> Braude: OF COURSE IF THE PAST FEW MONTHS HAVE TAUGHT US ANYTHING, THAT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE THAT'S GETTING STEEPER BY THE DAY.

OVER THE WEEKEND, WE AS A NATION SURPASSED 700,000 TOTAL COVID DEATHS.

700,000.

MORE THAN 100,000 OF THOSE DEATHS HAVE COME SINCE SHOTS WERE MADE READILY AVAILABLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND MOST WHO HAVE DIED IN RECENT MONTHS HAVE BEEN UNVACCINATED.

YET, STILL, CROWDS WERE OUT YESTERDAY PROTESTING NEW YORK CITY'S NEW VACCINE MANDATE FOR THOSE WHO WORK IN SCHOOLS, EVEN GOING SO FAR AS FLIPPING OVER A TESTING TABLE AND TENT IN THEIR ANGER.

ANGER, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE AGAIN, OVER A VACCINE THAT SAVES LIVES.

A NEW HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES REPORT FINDS VACCINES HAVE BEEN LINKED TO 39,000 FEWER DEATHS, 100,000 HOSPITALIZATIONS, AND MORE THAN A QUARTER OF A MILLION FEWER CASES AMONG SENIOR CITIZENS BETWEEN JANUARY AND MAY.

AND FOR ALL THOSE WHO GOT A JOHNSON & JOHNSON SHOT AND HAVE BEEN ANXIOUSLY AWAITING WORD OF A BOOSTER, TODAY'S A BIG DAY AS J & J HAS OFFICIALLY ASKED THE F.D.A.

TO AUTHORIZE AN ADDITIONAL DOSE OF ITS SHOT, WHICH THEY SAY WOULD PROVIDE 94% PROTECTION AGAINST MODERATE TO SEVERE COVID CASES.

OF COURSE ANOTHER BIG GAME-CHANGER WILL BE WHEN YOUNGER KIDS BECOME ELIGIBLE FOR VACCINES, AND TO THAT END, THE BAKER ADMINISTRATION HAS STARTED REACHING OUT TO LOCAL HEALTH OFFICIALS TO START PLANNING THAT NEXT KEY PHASE OF THE ROLLOUT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT ALL THIS AND MORE ARE DR. CASSANDRA PIERRE, AN ASSOCIATE HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER AND AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR AT B.U.

's SCHOOL OF MEDICINE, AND DR. LAKSHMAN SWAMY, A CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN AT CAMBRIDGE HEALTH ALLIANCE AND INSTRUCTOR AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL AND THE CREATOR OF A NEW BOARD GAME CALLED "CRITICAL CARE," WHICH WE'LL GET TO A LITTLE LATER.

BRAWRMD DOCTORS, IT IS VERY GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR DOING IT.

>> Doctor: GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: STARTING WITH YOU, DR. PIERRE, CASES ARE DOWN, NOT UNJUST HIGH VAX STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY -- WHY?

DOES THAT MEAN WE'RE COMING OUT OF THIS?

>> Doctor: COVID SEEMS TO THRIVE ON OUR SHORT-TERM MEMORIES, AND EVERY TIME WE START THROWING AWAY OUR MASKS, IT COMES BACK.

WE'VE SEEN THIS CYCLE OF INFECTION.

THE NUMBERS ON THE DECLINE ARE GREAT, BUT WE KNOW WE'RE HEADING TO FALL AND WINTER, WHERE PEOPLE START MOVING INDOORS, CELEBRATING HOLIDAYS, AND THERE ARE ESTIMATES THAT THE NUMBERS WILL RISE.

AND AS DR. FAUCI, WE NEED TO PRIORITIZE VACCINATIONS AND GIVE PEOPLE A REAL SENSE OF HOW THIS VIRUS SPREADS SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

SO WE'RE NOT OUT OF THE WOODS.

>> Braude: EVEN IF WE'RE NOT OUT OF THE WOODS, DR. SWAMY, IN LOW VAX STATES THE NUMBERS ARE GOING DOWN AS WELL.

IS THAT A CYCLICAL KIND OF DEAL?

>> Doctor: THIS IDEA WHERE THERE IS THIS CYCLE WHERE WE SEE CASES GO UP AND DOWN NOT ALWAYS EXACTLY IN TUNE TO WHAT WE EXPECT, RIGHT?

LIKE YOU SAID, LOWER VACCINATIONS STATES, IT COMES DOWN, ALSO.

IT IS EASY TO TRY TO PIN THE HUMAN NARRATIVE ON EVERYTHING WITH COVID, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT IS THAT SIMPLE.

IT DOESN'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY.

I DON'T THINK WE TOTALLY UNDERSTAND WHY THE VIRUS EBBS AND FLOWS COMPLETELY LIKE IT DOES, BUT, YOU'RE RIGHT, WE SEE THAT HAPPEN.

>> Braude: DR. PIERRE, LET'S GO FROM GRANTS TO STUDIES -- I KNOW YOU GOT A GRANT TO STUDY WHAT WENT WRONG THAT PREVENTED AFFECTION PROTECTION AMONGST PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BUT IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHEN WE SPOKE TO THE GOVERNOR ON THE RADIO, I GUESS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, I KNOW WE WERE TOPPING MOST OTHER STATES IN TERMS OF VACCINATIONS OF HISPANICS AND BLACK MEMBERS OF OUR POPULATION, BUT HOW ARE WE DOING IN THIS STATE AS COMPARED TO THE VACCINATION RATE FOR WHITE PEOPLE?

>> Doctor: IT IS STILL LOW, AND WE'RE STILL OFF BY -- DEPEND OG ANDING ON THE COMMUNITY, A PERCENTAGE OF 10% TO 15% UP TO 20% THE GAP BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITES.

AND THAT'S A REALLY BIG GAP.

WE KNOW A LOT OF THE REASONS FOR IT.

I KNOW THAT YOU TALKED EVEN THIS MORNING ABOUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, THE WEIGHT OF CENTURIES OF OPPRESSION, MISINFORMATION AND EXPERIMENTATION IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, ARE THE REASON FOR LOW VACCINE ACCEPTANCE AND VACCINATION IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

THAT IS A BRIDGE, EVEN AS GOOD AS WE SEEM TO BE, AND AS WE'RE PATTING OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE A REAL GAP THAT COVID WILL EXPLOIT, OR CONTINUE TO EXPLOIT COME THIS WINTER, AS WE GATHER TOGETHER INDOORS.

SO IT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO CONTINUE TO PUSH THE NARRATIVE OF VACCINATION AND THE KNOWLEDGE WE HAVE ABOUT SAFETY AND EFFICACY, ESPECIALLY IN BLACK COMMUNITIES.

>> Braude: WHAT IS DOUBLING TROUBLING TO ME, DR. PIERRE, I'M READING IN "U.S.A. TODAY" TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE VACCINE IS AVAILABLE TO KIDS FIVE TO 11, VIRTUALLY ALL EXPERTS EXPECT KIDS OF COLOR TO HAVE ACCESS ISSUES, TO MY REACTION IS, DID WE LEARN NOTHING IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS IN TERMS OF HOW TO PREPARE KIDS FOR THE VACCINE WHEN IT IS AVAILABLE?

DID WE LEARN NOTHING?

>> Doctor: AGAIN, COVID PLAYS ON THE GAPS IN OUR SHORT-TERM MEMORY.

I SHARE YOUR FRUSTRATION.

I THINK THAT WE'VE HEARD THAT EVEN PARENTS WHO ARE VACCINATED CONTINUE TO HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF COVID IN OUR CHILDREN.

THAT IS ONE BIG BEAR REAR WE'LL HAVE TO ENCOUNTER.

THE OTHERS WILL BE THE LACK OF ACCESS ISSUES THAT CONTINUE TO PERSIST IN AREAS.

AND THIS IS NOT JUST A GENERATIONAL ISSUE, IN TERMS OF LACK OF ACCESS; THIS HAS BEEN A CENTURY'S OLD ISSUE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IN THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF.

>> Braude: DR. SWAMY, IF WE CAN STAY WITH KIDS, EVERY TIME I HAVE A SIMPLE SOLUTION OR PROBLEM, I KNOW I'M WRONG.

SO YOU'LL HAVE TO TELL ME WHERE I GOT IT WRONG HERE.

IT SEEMS TO ME WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT KIDS OF COLOR WHO ARE GOING TO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH AC ACCESS, THE SOLUTION IS SO EASY: DO WHAT CALIFORNIA HAS DONE, MANDATE COVID SHOTS FOR KIDS WHEN THEY'RE AVAILABLE, AND TO BE SURE THAT THEY GET THEM, GIVE THEM TO THEM, MAKE THEM AVAILABLE TO THEM AT THE SCHOOLS.

ISN'T THAT OBVIOUS ANTIDOTE TO THIS PROBLEM?

>> Doctor: I MEAN, I THINK YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

LIKE VACCINES, I ALWAYS THINK OF IT AS A PUSH AND A PULL AT THE SAME TIME.

WE PUSH PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED BY MANDATING IT, AND I THINK THAT WILL HAVE A HUGE EFFECT IN CALIFORNIA, AND I HOPE TO SEE THAT ELSEWHERE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU CAN'T JUST PUSH PEOPLE.

WE SAW THE ANGER -- WE SEE IT EVERYWHERE.

MAYBE LESS SO HERE, BUT BEING PUSHED LIKE THIS -- WE HAVE TO PULL, TOO, AND WE HAVE TO CONVINCE THE OTHERS, WHERE PEOPLE ARE, IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, AND LIKE YOU SAID, WE HAVE TO GO TO THEM WITH A LOT OF TRUST FROM TEACHERS, FROM NURSES.

WE CAN GO TO WHERE THEY ARE AND GET SHOTS OUT THERE.

>> Braude: WHY CAN'T WE PUSH -- I WAS JUST LOOKING AT SOME NUMBERS AT KAISER PERMANENTE -- I'M SURE YOU HAVE SEEN THEM -- THE PRE-MANDATE, 78% OF THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED THERE WERE VACCINATED.

I THINK IT WAS TWO WEEKS LATER, GIVE OR TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS, THEN 97% WERE VACCINATED.

WHY CAN'T WE PUSH PEOPLE IN THE DIRECTION OF MANDATES.

MANDATES?

THEY DO WORK?

>> Doctor: I THINK -- THERE ARE DIFFERENT POPULATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEING THEIR HESITANCY.

YES, YOU SEE THE PEOPLE ON THE NEWS IN NEW YORK AND ALL OF THAT, AND THAT ANGER.

THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF HONEST FEAR.

AND THAT'S WHAT I SEE IN A LOT OF MY PATIENTS, ESPECIALLY PATIENTS OF COLOR.

WHAT I SEE IS PEOPLE WHO ARE GENUINELY CONFRONTED WITH AS MUCH CONCERN THAT THE VACCINE WILL GIVE THEM COVID AS THEY ARE THAT COVID IS BAD.

SO WE'VE GOT TO GET TO PEOPLE.

>> Braude: DR. PIERRE, I KNOW AS DR. SWAMY DESCRIBED THE HESITANCY, I KNOW IT IS THERE.

THE HEAD OF THE LEAGUE OF COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS, MICHAEL CURRIE, WAS ON A RADIO SHOW THIS MúRNING SAYING ALMOST THE EXACT SAME WORDS DR. SWAMY WAS SAYING.

THE OTHER THING I WORRY ABOUT, THE OTHER NIGHT I WAS CELEBRATING THIS HUGE BREAKTHROUGH, IT SEEMS TO ME AS A LAY PERSON, WITH MERCK'S ANNOUNCEMENT THERE MAY BE AN ANTIVIRAL PILL, WHERE YOU GET COVID AND AS LONG AS YOU TAKE THIS PILL EARLY ON -- NOT PROVEN YET -- AS LONG AS YOU TAKE IT EARLY ON, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS DISEASE, AS WELL AS THE TRANSMISSIBILITY OF IT, WILL BE CAPPED, OR AT LEAST INHIBITED.

BUT WHEN I WENT HOME THAT NIGHT, I SAID TO MYSELF, THAT'S GOING TO GIVE EVEN A FURTHER EXCUSE FOR VACCINE-HEFTHESITANT PEOPLE NOT TO TAKE A VACCINE, WHO SAY, EVEN IF I DO GET IT, WHICH I WON'T, BUT IF I GET IT, I TAKE THIS PILL AND ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD.

IS THAT A LEGITIMATE FEAR?

I THINK IT IS, NO?

>> Doctor: YEAH.

I THINK THERE IS A CONCERN THAT PEOPLE WILL CONFLATE TREATMENT AS AN EXCUSE TO FORGET ABOUT PREVENTION, AND ALSO THE CONCERN THAT AS GOOD AS THIS MEDICATION PROMISES TO BE, WE DON'T HAVE THE STUDY HERE TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT WHO IT WORKS FOR AND HOW WELL IT WORKS IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

WE WON'T HAVE ACCESS ISSUES TO THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE THE HARDEST HIT AND MORE SOCIALLY AND FINANCIALLY VULNERABLE, AND THE GLOBAL STAGE, WHERE WE HAVE SEEN PATENTS CONTINUE TO PREVENT ACCESS TO THINGS.

AND WE WOULD THINK AS BASIC AS VACCINES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WONDERFUL NEWS.

YOU WERE RIGHT TO CELEBRATE IT, ABSOLUTELY.

I DO THINK THAT OUR MESSAGING HAS TO BE ON POINT, TO CONTINUE TO STATE, THOUGH, AS GOOD AS A MEDICATION IS IN PREVENTING DISEASE, WE DID SEE DECREASES IN HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS, BUT IT WASN'T 100% REDUCTION.

SO PREVENTION CONTINUES TO BE THE MAINSTAY WAY WE CAN -- I USED TO SAY GET OUT OF THIS PANDEMIC, BUT AT LEAST MAKE IT MORE MANAGEABLE FOR US.

>> Braude: DR. SWAMY, I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREAT EXPERTS ON BOOSTERS HAD TO SAY IF ASKED IF HE WAS GOING TO GET A BOOSTER.

HERE HE IS?

>> WELL, IF I FELT IT WAS NECESSARY -- I GUESS I HAVE SORT OF A DOUBLE VACCINE BECAUSE I HAD IT.

I, IN ADDITION TO THAT, GOT THE SHOT.

I'M SOMEBODY THAT TELLS PEOPLE I'D LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE GET IT, BUT I ALSO WANTS THEM TO HAVE THEIR FREEDOMS.

BUT I GOT THE DOUBLE SHOT.

>> Braude: A RESPONSIBLE COMMENTARY -- DOES THAT STILL HURT THE EFFORT, OR IS HE, LIKE, ANCIENT NEWS ON THIS ISSUE?

>> Doctor: TO ME, ANCIENT NEWS IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL LISTEN TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

IF WE CAN GET ANY MESSAGING OUT THERE THAT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED, I THINK IT IS WORTH IT.

I THINK THAT MESSAGE IS GOING TO BE TAKING DIFFERENTLY BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

IT IS GOING TO BE SPUN IN MANY WAYS.

SO I WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT COMES FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT IN TRYING TO END THIS PANDEMIC.

BUT WE'LL DO WHAT WE CAN.

>> Braude: SO, DR. PIERRE, ON THE BOOSTER FRONT, MY UNDERSTANDING IS IF THINGS GO WELL FOR THOSE OF US WHO GOT MODERNA OR JOHNSON & JOHNSON, BY MID-OCTOBER, I THINK THE MEETING IS THE 15th OR 16th, THERE WILL BE A RECOMMENDATION THAT A BOOSTER -- OR SOME PEOPLE SAY IT SHOULD BE CALLED A THIRD SHOT IN THE CASE OF MODERNA, A SECOND SHOT IN THE CASE OF JOHNSON & JOHNSON -- WILL BE APPROVED.

IS IT LIKELY THAT THE F.D.A.

IS GOING TO FINALLY ANSWER THE MIX AND MATCH QUESTION?

EVEN THOUGH I ASSUME IT IS LESS IMPORTANT WHEN ALL THREE ARE APPROVED.

BUT WILL THAT BE ANSWERED BY PEOPLE IN D.C.?

>> Doctor: I THINK IT IS STILL AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

I DON'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO ALSO TAKE ON THE ISSUE OF THE MIX AND MATCH FOR THE SECOND OR THIRD DOSE AT THIS TIME.

THEY'VE BEEN WAITING FOR -- THEY REALLY WANT TO BE AS SCIENCE-BASED AS POSSIBLE, AND LOOK AT EVIDENCE THAT SPECIFICALLY APPLIES TO MODERNA AND JOHNSON & JOHNSON AND PFIZER.

AND WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DATA ON THAT JUST YET.

THE ASTRAZENECA, SIMILAR IN TERMS OF CONCEPTION AND DESIGN TO THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON.

WE DO HAVE EVIDENCE ABOUT THE SAFETY AND EFFICACY WITH ANOTHER mRNA VACCINE, BUT WE DON'T YET HAVE IT FOR A LOT OF OTHERS.

I THINK WHEN THE DECISION IS ABOUT THE BOOSTER SHOTS FOR MODERNA AND JOHNSON & JOHNSON ARE MADE, IT MAY COME UP TO INDIVIDUAL-LEVEL DECISION-MAKING AS TO WHETHER MIX AND MATCH WILL HAPPEN, BUT I DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE.

>> Braude: DR. SWAMY, I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.

WHEN ONE OF MY CO-WORKERS TOLD ME YOU WERE THE CO-DEVELOPER OF SOMETHING CALLED "CRITICAL CARE, THE GAME," I ASSUMED THEY WERE JOKING.

THEY'RE NOT, ARE THEY?

WHAT IS THIS THING?

>> Doctor: THIS IS A PROJECT I STARTED ON WHEN I WAS WORKING IN THE I.C.

IN THE BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER DURING THE FIRST COVID SURGE.

AND IT WAS A DARK TIME FOR US.

I REALIZED TALKING TO THE PUBLIC SO MUCH, THAT THE PUBLIC DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WE DO.

I REALLY WANTED TO SHARE IT, AND IT IS A GAME FOR EVERYONE, 14 AND UP.

YOU CAN LEARN ABOUT MEDICINE, BUT REALLY IT IS (indiscernable).

>> Braude: SO IF I CAN WATCH JEOPARDY, I CAN PLAY CRITICAL CARE, THE GAME AS WELL.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IT'S BEEN TWO DECADES IN THE MAKING: AN ANTHOLOGY ON RACE AND LAW, WITH A TITLE BORROWED FROM AN ICONIC LINE BY ICONIC MUSICIAN JAMES BROWN: "SAY IT LOUD: ON RACE, LAW, HISTORY, AND CULTURE," EXPLORES EVERYTHING FROM NAT TURNER'S SLAVE REBELLION TO BROWN VERSUS BOARD OF EDUCATION, FROM THURGOOD MARSHALL TO CLARENCE THOMAS, FROM DONALD TRUMP TO GEORGE FLOYD.

ITS AUTHOR, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR RANDALL KENNEDY, JOINED ME YESTERDAY TO DISCUSS.

>> Braude: RANDALL KENNEDY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Braude: OBVIOUSLY, THE SUPREME COURT STARTS A TERM, POTENTIALLY MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT CASES.

IT SEEMS TO ME, AS OUTSIDER, THAT WHEN JUSTICE ROBERTS SIDES WITH LIBERALS, CLARENCE THOMAS THE DEFACTO CHIEF JUSTICE, HERE IS WHAT YOU WROTE: "IF THOMAS IS NOT A SELLOUT, THE TERM IS NO UTILITY.

HE IS A PARADYNAMIC FIGURE WHO MANY AFRICAN-AMERICANS RIGHTLY DESPISE, A BLACK WHO FROM A POSITION OF PRIVILEGE OBTAINED BY THE SPONSORSHIP OF POWERFUL WHITES, ALL THE WHILE DEPLOYING HIS BLACKNESS AS A SHIELD AGAINST CRITICISM."

AND YOU WRITE YOU WERE SOLICITOUS OF HIM AT FIRST AND THEN YOU SAID, I'M A SAP.

WHO CHANGED, THOMAS OR YOU?

>> WELL, I THINK I WOKE UP JUSTICE THOMAS CONTINUED TO VOTE IN A WAY AND TO WRITE IN A WAY THAT AIL ALIENATED HIM FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE.

I'M -- I'M ON THE LEFTWARD END OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

BUT I WAS ONE OF THOSE, ALTHOUGH AN IDEOLOGICAL ADVERSARY OF JUSTICE THOMAS, WELL, HE'S ON THE COURT, LET'S SEE WHAT HE DOES AND SEE HOW HE ACTS.

AND JUSTICE THOMAS HAS BEEN A THOROUGH DISAPPOINTMENT EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO HAD INITIALLY A LOW OPINION OF HIM.

JUSTICE THOMAS HAS WRITTEN A NUMBER OF OPINIONS, HAS CAST A NUMBER OF VOTES, THAT ARE BAD FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND THAT ARE CERTAINLY BAD FOR BLACK AMERICA.

AND THAT'S WHY I WAS SO CRITICAL OF HIM AND REMAIN EXTREMELY CRITICAL OF HIM.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU HEAR PEOPLE LIKE THOMAS AND -- WELL, IT IS ACTUALLY A BIPARTISAN AISLE-CROSSING KIND OF THING DENY THERE IS AN AISLE, BRIAR, BRIAR, AMY CONEY BARRETT, SAYING THERE IS NOT AN AISLE -- >> I THINK THOSE COMMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

JUSTICE BRIER IS THE SENIOR MOST LIBERAL, AND HE HAS JUST WRITTEN A BOOK, WHICH HAS AS PART OF ITS TITLE, "THE PERILS OF POLITICS," MAKING IT SEEM AS THOUGH THE SUPREME COURT IS ABOVE POLITICS.

OF COURSE IT IS NOT.

IF THAT WERE SO, WHY -- HOW CAN ONE EXPLAIN THE FIGHTS OVER CONFIRMATION OF JUSTICES?

THE SUPREME COURT IS INEVITABLY POLITICAL OF AN ELECTED POLITICIAN, NAMELY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES NOMINATES, AND OTHER ELECTED POLITICIANS, NAMELY THE SENATORS, CONFIRM.

CLEARLY IT MATTERS WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE.

CLEARLY OUR LAW IS LARGELY DEPENDENT ON THE PERSONNEL THAT MAKE IT TO THESE SEATS ON THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: SO YOUR VIEWS OF THOMAS HAVE EVOLVED.

SO HAVE YOUR VIEWS ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF RACIAL EQUALITY.

YOU USED TO CALL YOURSELF A COMPETENT OPTIMIST, TALKING ABOUT A GOAL BEING REACHING A RACIAL PROMISED LAND.

YOU HAVE LOWERED YOUR SIGHTS TO WHAT AND WHY?

>> WELL, I'VE LOWERED MY SIGHTS BECAUSE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS WE'VE SEEN A LEVEL OF RACIAL RESENTMENT, RACIAL ANGER.

AND IN SOME INSTANCES, RACIAL HATRED THAT I THOUGHT HAD BEEN -- I THOUGHT WERE REALLY IN OUR BACK-VIEW MIRROR.

I DID NOT THINK, FOR INSTANCE, THAT WE WOULD SEE ANOTHER AMBITIOUS POLITICIAN WHO WANTED TO BECOME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CLEARLY TRAFFIC IN RACIAL ANIMOUS.

I THOUGHT, WELL, WHATEVER YOUR VIEW, WHATEVER YOUR FEELINGS, YOU WOULD HIDE IT.

THAT THAT JUST WASN'T A POLITICALLY SALEABLE PRESCRIPTION.

WELL, I WAS WRONG.

DONALD TRUMP BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND, UM, I THINK MORE THAN ANY SINGLE THING, THE ASCENSION OF DONALD TRUMP SHOWED ME THAT WE WERE NOT AS FAR DOWN THE ROAD TO RACIAL DECENCY AS I HAD ONCE THOUGHT.

>> Braude: WELL, FOR HIM TO MAKE THAT SALE, THOUGH, THERE HAVE GOT TO BE A LOT OF BUYERS.

TENS OF MILLIONS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

>> IT -- IT -- IT, UM, HAS A VERY SOBERING LESSON.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THERE ARE MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO, IF THEY DON'T HAVE RACIAL PREJUDICE OF A STRONG SORT, THEY'RE CERTAINLY WILLING TO TOLERATE RACIAL PREJUDICE OF A STRONG SORT.

SO I THINK THAT THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP, AND EVEN WHEN HE WAS -- EVEN IN THE LAST ELECTION, WHEN HE LOST, HE STILL GOT OVER 70 MILLION VOTES.

>> Braude: HE DID.

>> AND I THINK THAT IS VERY SOBERING, GIVEN THAT RACIAL RESENTMENT WASN'T THE ONLY THING HE WAS RUNNING ON, CLEARLY NOT.

BUT IT WAS CERTAINLY AN IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SELL.

>> Braude: RANDALL KENNEDY, BEFORE YOU GO, ONE OTHER THING YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE TALK ABOUT SO MANY THINGS -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THIS IS A WORD, BUT THE DE-MORALIZATION MOVEMENT.

I THINK THAT IS MY WORD.

LIKE THE ROYALS, THE INSIGNIA AT HARVARD, A SLAVE HOLDER.

AND I THINK YOU WENT TO YALE, AND VICE PRESIDENT CALHOON'S NAME TAKEN OFF A RESIDENTIAL HALL BECAUSE HIS NOTION THAT NOT ONLY WAS SLAVERY NOT BAD, BUT IT WAS A GOOD KIND OF THING.

WHY ISN'T DE-MEMORIALIZATION AN IMPORTANT THING AND AN IMPORTANT STATEMENT TO THE PEOPLE THOSE MEMORIALS GROSSLY OFFEND WHEN THEY LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY HANG OVER THEIR HEADS?

>> IT CAN BE.

MY POSITION IS THAT MEMORIALS CAN HAVE A WIDE VARIETY OF MEANINGS.

SO TAKE HARVARD LAW SCHOOL.

THAT'S RIGHT, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL GOT RID OF ITS INSIGNIA BECAUSE IT WAS BASED ON A CREST OF A SLAVE-OWNING FAMILY.

>> Braude: RIGHT.

>> NOW, THE STUDENTS -- THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO GET RID OF THAT SAID, THAT'S TERRIBLE.

WE OUGHT TO BE MORE RESPECTFUL OF THOSE WHO WERE OPPRESSED, THOSE WHO WERE ENSLAVED.

SO LET'S GET RID OF IT.

OKAY.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IS A SENSIBLE ARGUMENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE WERE PEOPLE AT THE LAW SCHOOL WHO TOOK THE POSITION THAT, WELL, MAYBE WE SHOULD HOLD ON TO THIS INSIGNIA TO MEMORIALIZE THE ENSLAVED.

LET'S NOT DO ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO ALLOW US TO FORGET THE TERRIBLE ASPECTS OF OUR HISTORY.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT WITH RESPECT TO ALL OF THIS.

YOU KNOW, JOHN C. CALHOUN, THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU CAN GET RID OF HIM, AND THERE IS AN ARGUMENT FOR THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS AN ARGUMENT FOR KEEPING JOHNJOHN C.CALHOUN ON THE BUILDING, EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT HIS LEGACY.

THAT, TOO, IS A PERFECT WAY TO GO.

>> Braude: EARLIER IN THIS DISCUSSION, YOU REFERRED TO YOURSELF AS ON THE LEFT END OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

AND OTHER PEOPLE SAY I CONSIDER HIM AN A CONSERVATIVE INTELLECTUAL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> I'M NOT SO CONCERNED WITH LABELS.

ASK ME ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF MY BELIEFS.

ASK ME DO I THINK THAT AMERICAN SOCIETY IS A WELL-ORDERED SOCIETY NOW?

NO, I DO NOT!

IN FACT, IT HAS NEVER BEEN WELL-ORDERED.

WE HAVE A SOCIETY THAT IS IS -- THAT IS CRUEL.

WE HAVE A SOCIETY THAT MARGINALIZES PEOPLE.

WE HAVE A SOCIETY THAT IS IN DIRE NEED OF REFORM, IN WHICH WE DEMOCRATIZE OUR SOCIETY, AND IN WHICH WE REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH AND POWER IN OUR SOCIETY.

IF YOU WANT TO CALL THAT CONSERVATIVE, FINE, THEN I'M A CONSERVATIVE.

>> Braude: RANDALL KENNEDY, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "SAY IT LOUD: ON RACE, LAW, HIGH SCHOOL AND CULTURE."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME BACK TOMORROW, CHRISTINE NACHRISTINA BAKER KLEIN JOINS ME.

AND THE LEADER OF THE NEW COALITION URGING THE STATE HOUSE TO PUT A BILLION DOLLARS IN STIMULUS MONEY TOWARDS KEEPING BLACK BUSINESSES AFLOAT.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ >> WAIT, DID I JUST COMMIT A CRIME?

HEY, FOLKS.

I'M EDWARD B. HERWICK III FROM GBH'S "CUROSITY DESK," WHERE YOU ASK QUESTIONS AND I FIND ANSWERS.

TODAY'S QUESTION COMES COURTESY OF BETTE DAVIS FROM GLOUCESTER, MASSACHUSETTS, WHO WANTS TO KNOW: IS IT, IN FACT, A CRIME TO REMOVE THESE LABELS?

NOW YOU FIND THESE GUYS ON PILLOWS, MATTRESSES, AND EVEN A LOT OF WINTER COATS.

AND THE REASON WHY IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT SEE WHAT IS INSIDE OF THOSE ITEMS.

NOW TODAY PILLOWS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE USUALLY STUFFED WITH FEATHERS OR COTTON OR SOME KIND OF SYNTHETIC MATERIAL.

BUT ACCORDING TO MAGGIE TERRY, BACK IN THE DAY THEY PUT SOME PRETTY GNARLY STUFF IN THE STUFFING.

>> I MEAN, IT USED TO BE YEARS AGO THEY'D THROW ANYTHING THEY WANTED TO INTO THE BEDDING.

NEWSPAPERS, DIRTY RAGS -- >> HORSE HAIR, USED HOSPITAL OR HOTEL MATTRESSES, CORN HUSKS -- >> SWEEPING OFF THE FLOOR, PART OF YOUR LUNCHES, DROPPINGS -- I MEAN ANYTHING.

>> FOR STARTERS, THAT'S DISGUSTING.

AND, FURTHERMORE, IT'S DANGEROUS AND UNHEALTHY.

SO TODAY A LOT OF STATES REQUIRE THESE LABELS THAT TELL YOU WHAT IS INSIDE OF THE ITEM.

AND IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE THEM.

SORT OF, RETAILERS AND MANUFACTURERS CAN BE FINED IF THEY REMOVE THE LABELS, BUT ONCE YOU BUY IT, OR I BUY IT, IF YOU READ CLOSELY MOST OF THESE END WITH THE LINE "EXCEPT BY THE CONSUMER."

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT.

FEEL FREE TO RIP AWAY.

DON'T FORGET TO FOLLOW US AND TELL US WHAT YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT BECAUSE, HEY, I MIGHT JUST LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDWARD B. HERWICK III.

STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.

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