AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

Geoff Bennett is on assignment.

On the "NewsHour" tonight: A Russian strike kills dozens of civilians in Ukraine, while, in the U.S., the fight for the House speaker's gavel puts military aid for Ukraine at risk.

The secretary of the Army discusses a major overhaul to boost recruitment after falling far short of its goal.

And despite a low overall unemployment rate in the United States, people with disabilities still struggle to find work and are sometimes paid below minimum wage.

JILLIAN NELSON, Task Force on Eliminating Subminimum Wages: The issue around increasing wages for people with disabilities is really just a human rights issue.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "NewsHour."

Today, in the Oval Office, President Biden convened his military and national security leaders for a briefing on the war in Ukraine, which took a devastating turn overnight.

Russian airstrikes struck a village in the eastern region of Kharkiv, killing more than 50 civilians, according to Ukrainian officials.

It is the most deadly attack in months.

And it comes at a moment when critical assistance from the U.S. is running out.

White House correspondent Laura Barron-Lopez and national security correspondent Nick Schifrin are at the table with me for an update.

And good to see you both.

Laura, just yesterday, President Biden expressed concern about securing some of that additional assistance for Ukraine.

What is the White House plan for getting that aid right now?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The president plans to give a speech in the coming weeks, Amna, where he is going to lay out the stakes.

He's going to essentially try to send a signal to foreign allies, foreign adversaries, but also domestically, that the U.S. needs to be in this, that the U.S. needs to continue its support of Ukraine.

And White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre was asked today about the urgency behind more aid for Ukraine.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, White House Press Secretary: We can go a bit longer, a bit longer, but it's not the long-term solution.

So the big piece of this right now is that we need Congress to keep their promise, to keep the promise that they made to Ukrainians.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And so I talked to a number of people today about this, essentially, two things, Amna.

One source close to the White House told me that what they want to hear from the president is a timeline and a big declaration for urgency, that this can't be something that is kicked down the road.

That's something that a senior Senate Republican aide also said that they agreed with.

And I also spoke to Senator Tim Kaine, a Democrat of Virginia, who sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

And he said that he wants Biden to lay out the stakes, but also not to necessarily just ask for Congress -- a vague request from Congress, that he wants Biden to say what exactly the White House wants in terms of the longer term, so into 2024, not the next 45 days, not to the end of the year, but well beyond that.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, Nick, what is the situation when it comes to funding in Ukraine?

How long can they last without additional funding?

NICK SCHIFRIN: The overall, simple answer to that, Amna, is not very long.

We just got back from the front in Southern Ukraine, and the situation is incredibly difficult.

We saw special forces units like this, and we saw ammunition shortages up and down the front, a lot of rationing by Ukrainian soldiers.

And that was even before the political chaos in Washington right now prevents the next package from passing.

Now, some U.S. officials believe Ukrainians are actually firing too much.

But the bottom line, long term, Ukraine cannot continue to fight the way it has been fighting unless U.S. levels of support remain at the levels they have been.

Now, the immediate term, let's look at the math.

Administration officials tell me they have about $5.6 billion of ammunition and weapons that they can draw down, draw down funds from existing stocks.

But here's the real number, $1.6 billion.

That's the number of replenishment funds that they would give to the military services for sending all those weapons to Ukraine.

And here's another number, zero dollars.

That is long-term military assistance known as the Ukrainian Security Assistant Initiative.

That is why you see the alarm from the administration right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: Laura, Nick referenced that political chaos here.

There is no full-time speaker in the U.S. House of Representatives right now, and there is a speaker race unfolding in real time.

How does that impact the potential for funding for Ukraine right now?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: It impacts it a lot.

So it's incredibly important who the speaker is.

And, so far, we have two declared candidates, one that's considering.

Those candidates are majority leader in the House Republican Conference Steve Scalise, Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan, and the head of the Republican Study Committee, Kevin Hern.

And so when you look at their grades on where they lie on support for Ukraine, the Republicans for Ukraine outside group has graded them based on their votes.

Scalise has a B.

Congressman Jim Jordan has an F. Congressman Hern has an F. And so when also asked about the potential for more Ukraine aid recently, Jim Jordan threw cold water on it.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I have been clear all along.

Why should we be sending American tax dollars to Ukraine when we don't even know what the goal is?

No one can tell me what the objective is.

And so until you can tell me the goal, I don't think we should continue to send money there, particularly when we have the problems we have on our border.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, talking to Democrats like Senator Tim Kaine, they read -- they see Jordan's comments and they say that isn't necessarily a hard no.

So, potentially, what could happen is that the Senate and a bipartisan group in the Senate tries to piece together a larger Ukraine aid package with some border security funding in it.

And they think that if they're able to do that, then they could potentially get, whether it's a Speaker Jim Jordan or a Speaker Steve Scalise, and their Republican Conference on board with that with some border security.

Now, if those House Republicans try to add on anything that would restrict refugee applications or asylum-seeker applications, go beyond just basic funding for the border and law enforcement down there, then, of course, they're going to meet resistance.

AMNA NAWAZ: Nick, what is the U.S. strategy moving forward for Ukraine?

NICK SCHIFRIN: Look, Ukraine has failed to push Russia out of Ukraine, and they failed to change Putin's calculus.

It still remains the same.

And some U.S. officials are telling me they doubt Ukraine can make any progress, frankly, in the next few weeks or the next few months.

So if the current strategy of providing weapons that the U.S. and the West have been willing to provide so far is not producing battlefield gains, and the level of support will probably go down, what's the administration going to do?

You have one option, go big, provide weapons systems that you have not yet provided to Ukraine, like long-range fires known as ATACMS.

You could go small, send less expensive weapons, send ammunition and smaller systems to make that $1.6 billion last longer.

But what they are unwilling to do, at least publicly, Amna, is Plan B, to even talk about any kind of negotiated settlement, because they think even talking about that with their allies would force or pressure Ukraine to concede.

And that is not their policy, at least right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: Amna Nawaz, Nick Schifrin, Laura Barron-Lopez, thank you so much for your reporting.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: In the day's other headlines: The president of Mexico criticized a U.S. plan to build new sections of border wall.

He called it a -- quote -- "step backwards."

On Wednesday, the Biden administration formally waived 26 federal laws to allow 20 miles of construction in South Texas, where illegal crossings have surged.

At the White House today, President Biden said he still thinks a wall won't work, but he argued Congress gave him no choice.

JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: The money was appropriated for the border wall.

I tried to get them to re-appropriate, to redirect that money.

They didn't.

They wouldn't.

And, in the meantime, there's nothing under the law other than they have to use the money for whatever is appropriated.

I can't stop that.

AMNA NAWAZ: The Trump administration erected some 450 miles of border barriers.

Today, Mr. Trump posted that President Biden should apologize for -- quote -- "taking so long to get moving."

Meantime, senior administration officials say the Biden administration will resume deporting people to Venezuela if they enter the U.S. illegally.

Venezuelan migrants have been arriving at the U.S. Southern border in growing numbers.

Deportation flights are expected to begin shortly.

A panel of federal judges has selected a new congressional map in Alabama's long-running fight over redistricting and race.

The map creates a second district with a substantial Black population.

Republican state lawmakers had submitted their own version, but the judges ruled that it failed to fix racial gerrymandering.

The late Senator Dianne Feinstein was laid to rest today after memorial service in San Francisco.

Mourners gathered on the steps of City Hall, where she'd once served as the city's first female mayor.

Her fellow Bay Area native Vice President Kamala Harris said Feinstein had a warm, but no-nonsense approach.

KAMALA HARRIS, Vice President of the United States: She was a serious and gracious person who welcomed debate and discussion, but always required that it would be well-informed and studied.

And I believe that this city, where she started, had a lot to do with that.

AMNA NAWAZ: Feinstein died last Friday after serving more than 30 years in the Senate.

She was 90 years old.

Exploding drones struck a military graduation ceremony in Syria today, killing at least 80 people and wounding 240.

It happened in the central city of Homs, just after the defense minister had left the proceedings.

The military blamed unnamed terrorists, but no group claimed responsibility.

In Northeastern India, flash flooding has killed at least 18 people, with nearly 100 still missing.

Heavy rainfall across Sikkim state triggered the deluge on Wednesday, stranding thousands of people.

The water broke dams and washed away roads.

Officials said it's the worst flooding in the region in at least 50 years.

Authorities in Iran are denying they have arrested a woman whose daughter was severely injured in Tehran.

That came today, as activists charged the 16-year-old girl was beaten into a coma by morality police for not wearing a hijab.

Security footage shows her being pulled unconscious out of a train in Tehran.

Activists are demanding to know what happened inside the car.

A year ago, the death of Mahsa Amini in a similar incident sparked nationwide protests.

Norwegian playwright and author Jon Fosse claimed the Nobel Prize in literature today.

The announcement said his works focus on human insecurity and anxiety and -- quote -- "give voice to the unsayable."

Fosse has penned 40 plays, as well as novels and children's books.

He spoke from Western Norway.

JON FOSSE, Nobel Prize Winner (through translator): I stand here and feel a little numb, but, of course, very happy for the great honor.

I have been involved in the discussion about the Nobel Prize for 10 years, but I'm used to not getting it.

That I got it this year was unexpected.

AMNA NAWAZ: Fosse is the first Norwegian to win the literature prize in nearly a century and the fourth overall.

Back in this country, former President Trump moved on two fronts in the battery of court cases facing him.

In Washington, his lawyers asked a federal court to dismiss charges that he tried to overturn the 2020 presidential election results.

And, in Florida, Mr. Trump asked that his classified documents trial be delayed until after the 2024 election.

It's currently set for next May.

And, on Wall Street, stocks were little changed.

The Dow Jones industrial average lost 10 points to close at 33119.

The Nasdaq fell 16 points and the S&P 500 dropped five.

Still to come on the "NewsHour": The Washington Post's former editor examines journalism in the Trump era; a winner of the Nobel Prize in medicine on how her work helped fight COVID-19; Beatles drummer Ringo Starr discusses his career and his new music; plus much more.

The Army is unveiling new plans for recruiting soldiers.

The service has struggled to meet its recruiting goals, thanks to COVID, a tight job market and some highly publicized cases of sexual assault in the military.

Nick Schifrin has more on the challenges and proposed solutions.

NICK SCHIFRIN: The United States Army has not met its recruitment goals since 2014.

For the fiscal year that just ended, the Army fell short of its 65,000 goal by 15,000.

For months, Army leadership has been studying the problem of how to staff an all-volunteer Army and, this week, unveiled their new plan.

To discuss that, we turn to Army Secretary Christine Wormuth.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to the "NewsHour."

One of your big initiatives is to recruit college students and graduates for the enlisted ranks, rather than for officers.

By 2028, you want one-third of new recruits to have more than a high school education, up from one-fifth.

Why?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH, Secretary of the U.S. Army: Well, frankly, it's, that's where the labor market is, Nick.

And I wouldn't say we're so much focusing on college graduates.

We're looking at folks with some college.

We're looking at folks who maybe have graduated from community college.

There may well be college graduates who also want to join the Army, but what we have recognized through this work we have done is that only 15 to 20 percent of the labor market are just high school graduates, so we need to fish in a bigger pond.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Do you compete against yourself, though, when you do that, given that at least college graduates would, I assume, normally end up in the officer track, rather than the enlisted track?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: I don't think we're really competing against ourselves.

I mean, there are folks who join the enlisted ranks with a college degree.

But, again, I think, for the enlisted folks, we'd be looking at more some college, community college.

NICK SCHIFRIN: But do you also acknowledge you're dealing, especially with Generation Z, in a declining trust in institutions and in the military?

According to Gallup, trust in the military is at the lowest point in a half-century?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: Yes, trust is declining.

And we call it propensity.

Are people wanting to join?

NICK SCHIFRIN: Propensity to serve for -- they want to serve, right.

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: Exactly.

And, like eligibility, propensity to serve has been declining for years now, but certainly part of it, I think, is Generation Z's distrust in institutions, sort of skepticism about authority.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And the military itself?

I mean, there's argument, especially in conservative circles, that the military is somehow acting out some kind of woke agenda.

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: Yes, well, happily, trust in the military is still very, very strong.

Next to small businesses, the United States military is the most trusted institution in the country.

But that has declined.

We used to be up in the 80s, and I think now we're in the sort of mid-60s.

So there's work to be done there too.

NICK SCHIFRIN: You're also creating full-time recruiters, rather than using soldiers who take on temporary assignment as recruiters.

I know that the Marines, at the very least, have been doing this for a while.

Why hasn't the Army been doing that, and what difference does that make?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: I think the reason we weren't doing it is because, for quite a while, we were doing fine with recruiting.

And -- but what we have come to recognize now is, in the last 20 years, the labor market has changed a lot.

And when we looked at Fortune 500 companies, almost all of them have a permanent recruiter work force.

And we have recognized, when the market is changing as much as it is, we need to have a strong specialized recruiting force that can help us be nimble and agile and able to compete against private sector companies.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Which, of course, is part of the challenge, competing against a shrinking job market.

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: That's right.

And it's a very competitive job market.

NICK SCHIFRIN: I want to talk about another challenge to recruiting that recruiters themselves have been speaking to us about.

And that is recruits' perception of sexual harassment and sexual assault inside the military, especially high-profile cases, including, of course, Vanessa Guillen, who was found beaten to death by another soldier outside of Fort Hood after Guillen reported two sexual assault incidents.

Take a listen to a former Marine Corps recruiter, Joanna Sweatt, who I talked to earlier today.

JOANNA SWEATT, Former Marine Corps Recruiter: There's definitely an impact on whether women want to join the service with news that has come out in recent years related to cases like Vanessa Guillen.

The instances that are happening specifically in the United States military become so egregious, because there's all these cover-ups happening, and nobody looks like they are protecting the victim or has the victim's interest.

Vanessa Guillen's family is who had to fight for her, not the United States military.

The Army didn't go to bat for her.

And so this is greatly going to affect whether women are going to join the service and is affecting them, because who wants to join a job knowing that there is a high percentage for you to be physically violated?

NICK SCHIFRIN: What's your response to that?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: I have heard that too, frankly.

I have heard it from our female recruiters in some cases, and I have heard those concerns expressed by young Americans.

And what I would say is this.

First of all, sexual harassment and sexual assault is a national problem.

It is not exclusively a military problem.

It's not exclusively an Army problem.

So I think we need to focus on it as a society.

But, that said, a bright spotlight shines on the United States Army.

And, particularly since the terrible murder of Vanessa Guillen, we have really worked hard in two areas, first of all, to do a better job of preventing those kinds of assaults in the first place.

And starting at basic training, we are talking to our new soldiers about what right looks like, about how to respect each other, to try and really make sure that we stamp out that kind of behavior.

We have also tried to improve how we respond to those situations, both to make sure that we're taking care of the victim, but also to make sure that we're holding perpetrators accountable.

And one of the things we have done is, we have taken those cases outside of the chain of command, and we now have a Special Trial Counsel that handles those kinds of cases.

NICK SCHIFRIN: So you have certainly taken those steps, but the problem remains.

Take a look at this statistic that we have got.

The Army's own survey data reveals that 64 percent of 16-to-28-year-old female prospects believe they would be sexually harassed, and 61 percent believe they will be sexually assaulted in the military.

That is from a March 2023 U.S. Army recruiting command PowerPoint briefing by the Defense Advisory Committee on Women's Service, better known as DACOWITS.

The problem remains.

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: It does.

And I think we have to stepped -- step up to it and talk about it.

I think we have to let people know what we're doing to try to get after this problem.

I think we have to highlight that our retention is historically high, which says that women who are coming into the Army, in the main, want to stay in the Army.

And I think we just have to keep getting after that.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And Joanna Sweatt and others advocate that these things have to happen.

You have to stick -- kick predators out of the military.

You have to strip them of their retirement benefits.

You have to put predators in jail.

Until then, the military will continue to struggle to recruit women.

Does this recruiting strategy have any attempt to counter that perception, counter that narrative?

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: I think, again, what we need to do is to arm our recruiters with the information about what we're doing to both improve our prevention of these kinds of harmful behaviors and then respond effectively to them.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Army Secretary Christine Wormuth, thank you very much.

CHRISTINE WORMUTH: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: Marty Baron has had a decades-long career in journalism, including leading some of the nation's most respected newspapers.

He sat down recently with Geoff Bennett to discuss his first book, "Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and The Washington Post."

GEOFF BENNETT: Marty Baron, welcome to the "NewsHour."

MARTY BARON, Author, "Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and The Washington Post": Thanks for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: You open this book with an at-the-time secret White House dinner the summer of 2017.

Donald Trump was the host, and the guests were you, Jeff Bezos, the former Post publisher, and the editorial page editor.

What did that dinner reveal to you about the level of contempt and disdain that Donald Trump reserved for the press and how that would affect your work moving forward?

MARTY BARON: Well, that entire dinner was an attack on our coverage, and it was clear to me that he was using that as an opportunity to attack us and to try to put leverage on Jeff Bezos to lean on us.

He felt that the owner of The Post would submit to his pressure and that he would then pressure us, in turn, to modify our coverage.

We weren't going to do that, and Jeff Bezos wasn't going to do that.

And, of course, he talked about his supposedly unfair treatment by the press throughout his campaign and during the early months of his presidency.

There was total contempt for us, and he felt that we should do his bidding, and that was the role of the press, that we didn't play an independent role.

We weren't there to hold him accountable.

We were there to really be subservient to him.

GEOFF BENNETT: You mentioned Jeff Bezos.

He purchased the paper from the Graham family less than a year into your tenure there.

And you wrote that you were initially concerned that Bezos might try to interfere with The Post's coverage of Amazon.

You wrote: "I expected to unearth some agenda that Bezos had been unwilling to own up to.

A man of his riches and power deserves to be doubted."

Did he have an agenda?

MARTY BARON: I didn't see one in my entire time at The Post working for him, and that was over seven years.

I always worried about that.

I certainly worried about it at the beginning, because, as I indicated in the book, he has enormous commercial interests, and they could be threatened by a president of the United States.

He could also have used the newspaper to try to influence Congress or policy generally.

He didn't do that.

I never saw him do that.

He didn't interfere in our coverage.

He gave us our full journalistic independence.

GEOFF BENNETT: In the book, you take the reader inside the decision-making around stories such as Edward Snowden's revelations of government surveillance, Christine Blasey Ford's testimony against Brett Kavanaugh, and the coverage of the Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements.

And you note that, while there were these cultural and racial reckonings happening, there was also internal pressure from some journalists about how to cover those stories and what they could say on social media.

You declared yourself weary of well-meaning, but moralistic young journalists.

In what ways?

MARTY BARON: There is a bit of a generational divide between how journalists of my generation view our jobs and how a younger generation of journalists views what they should be permitted to do.

Social media didn't exist when I grew up in journalism.

And our view was always that the journalism itself should speak for itself.

And I still believe that.

I believe that what we should be focusing on is the work, the journalism, and it should be powerful journalism.

It should be rigorous.

It should be thoroughly researched, totally fact-based.

And that should be the statement that we make to the public, that journalists should not be just going on to Twitter and other social media to express their feelings, their opinions, whatever impulsive thoughts they might have.

And so there was a conflict over that.

But I stick by my position that.

I think that journalism should speak for itself.

GEOFF BENNETT: During your time at The Boston Globe, you were, of course, instrumental in the coverage of the Catholic Church child abuse scandal, which became the basis for the film "Spotlight."

When you think about the start of your career, what are the key challenges that journalism faces now versus then, in this era where the pursuit of truth is so often cast as a partisan enterprise, a partisan pursuit?

MARTY BARON: The problem now is that people can't agree on what's a fact, that we don't share a common set of facts.

We can't even agree on how to establish that something is a fact.

So that is the biggest challenge that we face, among all of the other challenges that we face, the financial pressures that we face in this industry, the transformation to a digital media environment, all of which are enormous pressure, the speed at which we have to produce news these days.

But the fact that the public can't agree on a common set of facts and can't agree on how to even establish that something is a fact is clearly the biggest challenge that we face.

GEOFF BENNETT: After nearly a decade now of covering Donald Trump as a candidate, then a president, and now a candidate again, have we as journalists gotten better at figuring out how to cover him accurately and responsibly?

MARTY BARON: I think we have gotten somewhat better, but I think we're still struggling with how to cover him.

The fact is that media in countries throughout the world are struggling with how to cover politicians who are like Donald Trump, who are so-called populists, but also people who have an authoritarian impulse, as he does.

That's a huge challenge.

I think we're getting better at that.

I think we're also being more direct about what he's saying that's simply not true.

I think that's very important for us to do.

GEOFF BENNETT: For all of your decades in journalism, your storied career, you hadn't written a book until now.

Why was now the right moment?

MARTY BARON: Well, I hadn't really had the opportunity to write until now.

GEOFF BENNETT: You have been a bit busy.

MARTY BARON: First of all, I was busy, yes, being the editor, top editor of three different news organizations, and I didn't have time to write a book, and it wouldn't have been an appropriate time to write a book either.

I think it was important to write this book now, because I was at The Post during an incredible moment in history, important moment in history for the United States, for the world, for the press.

Look, we had this newspaper that was owned by the same family, the Graham family, for 80 years, and it was sold to one of the richest people in the world.

And this was a legendary newspaper, one that helped bring down a previous president of the United States.

And then along comes a presidential candidate and ultimately a president who is unlike any we have ever seen before.

I think somebody needs to tell that story.

I was really the only one who could or would tell that story.

And, by the way, the motto that we have at The Post was "Democracy dies in darkness."

And the press is an important part of democracy, and I think we needed to tell our story, and I needed to tell it.

GEOFF BENNETT: Marty Baron.

The book is "Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and The Washington Post."

Thanks so much for your time.

We appreciate it.

MARTY BARON: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: Only about 20 percent of people with disabilities in the U.S. have a job, and some with intellectual and developmental disabilities are paid less than the federal minimum wage.

Last week, the Labor Department said it's reviewing the policy, allowing that.

Judy Woodruff went to Minnesota to learn what the disability community thinks for our series Disability Reframed.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Thirty-one-year-old Erik Marschel is into all kinds of sports, but the Golden are one of his favorite teams.

He loves his job greeting and guiding fans at the University of Minnesota football games.

ERIK MARSCHEL, Employee (through computer voice): Can I please see your ticket?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Erik has cerebral palsy and apraxia, which limits his ability to speak.

He understands others, but often uses a communication device to express himself.

He visited six different employers with his dad before finding this job and earns $17 an hour, like the rest of his co-workers.

ERIK MARSCHEL (through computer voice): It was difficult to get the employer to understand the value I could bring to the job, but I was persistent.

It was also hard when changes happened at work, but, with patience and training, I was able to succeed.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Before this, Marschel worked in what's known as a 14(c) program, where he was paid below minimum wage to place labels on bags of bagels.

FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, President of the United States: In the working out of a great national program... JUDY WOODRUFF: Section 14(c) of President Franklin Roosevelt's Fair Labor Standards Act made it legal to pay workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum.

It was designed to help wounded war veterans get access to jobs.

There are now some 42,000 people in 14(c) work nationwide.

The average hourly wage of a person working in the program is $4.15, but more than half earn less than $3.50.

KEVIN MARSCHEL, Father of Erik Marschel: It was strange because we'd get these little checks for 14 cents, 15 cents, things like that, and I'm going, oh, what is he doing exactly here?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Kevin Marschel says, while some of his son's first jobs were training opportunities, he was surprised by just how little Erik was earning.

KEVIN MARSCHEL: I guess the other side of it was that he was ready and able for some more challenges.

Essentially, he can't walk or talk, yet he has the ability to get out there and do a job of this structure and type.

And it's all about to have the right training and the right supports around him.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Supports like his fellow co-workers and job coaches that step in if Erik needs help.

Today, almost all 14(c) workers have an intellectual or developmental disability, and critics have long said no one should be paid that little.

Two years ago, the Minnesota state legislature set up a task force to create a plan to phase out 14(c) programs, while 17 states have taken action to phase out 14(c).

JILLIAN NELSON, Task Force on Eliminating Subminimum Wages: The issue around increasing wages for people with disabilities is really just a human rights issue.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Jillian Nelson was diagnosed with autism when she was 21.

Today, she co-chairs Minnesota's Task Force on Eliminating Subminimum Wages, a group that has called for a slow phaseout of the 14(c) program.

JILLIAN NELSON: When it happens suddenly and without planning, that's when people's lives crumble.

It was very important to me to make sure that, when Minnesota pursued this, that we had a plan, we had investment, we had support, so that when we ended subminimum wage in Minnesota, everybody was protected.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But, 200 miles north of Minnesota west of Minneapolis, in small town Park Rapids, Minnesota, 32-year-old Laura Kovacovich says 14(c) has been a crucial lifeline.

Laura has autism and obsessive compulsive disorder, among other disabilities.

Since 2013, she has worked at the barely used thrift store.

What do you really love about this job?

LAURA KOVACOVICH, Employee: What I love pricing and shelfing, going -- items, and putting them out on the shelves.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Putting on the shelves.

LAURA KOVACOVICH: And I sort the items that I call unsellable items.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Laura has become an employee the store can count on.

She makes around $5 an hour.

Laura, if you couldn't do some of the jobs that you do now, what would you think about that?

How would you feel about that?

LAURA KOVACOVICH: I'd be very sad if I could no longer work there.

I can't and don't want to work in a competitive job in a competitive community, because job supervisors who don't understand my disabilities would not know what to do if I get upset or anxious easily.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Laura got this job and another one making rugs through the Hubbard County Developmental Achievement Center, or DAC.

The nonprofit provides day programs and job services to people with disabilities.

Wages here are dependent on productivity levels, a process that is approved by the U.S. Department of Labor.

Twice a year, employees undergo a wage review.

And the center is also required to talk to them about other employment opportunities.

While some workers make below $4 an hour, others will make up to $10.59, Minnesota's minimum wage.

After several years on the rug-making team, two of which she's worked the loom, Laura began making $10.59 this year.

She says the decision to work is all her own.

LAURA KOVACOVICH: My work, my life, my home, my choice.

(LAUGHTER) DAWN KOVACOVICH, Mother of Laura Kovacovich: It should be your choice, right.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Laura's mother, Dawn Kovacovich, says her daughter requires constant support staff, and most competitive work isn't an option for people with severe disabilities.

DAWN KOVACOVICH: Some of them need diaper changes.

Some people need assistance with seizures.

Others, like Laura, have to have somebody there every minute in case there's an anxiety issue.

You can't just stick somebody in a rural community like this in some job and say, well, here, accommodate them.

You're not going to find an employer who can handle that.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Dawn says, without the 14(c) program, Laura would spend all her time in day services or at home.

But Jillian Nelson says, under the task force plan, places like the DAC can keep giving people work as long as they're all paid minimum wage.

JILLIAN NELSON: We are not saying anyone has to change where they spend their time or how they spend their time.

We don't want to take away the choice.

We have provided support for programs to figure out how to change their business model, so they can continue doing things the way they're doing them now, but just paying people more money.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But Dawn told us, because her daughter's living expenses are covered through Medicaid, that her jobs aren't just about the money.

One would think that earning at least the minimum wage would be seen as a fair thing to do, but you're saying that's not right.

DAWN KOVACOVICH: Fair does not mean equal.

It does not mean exactly the same for you as it does for me, because we have different needs.

It's about having the right to work.

And I'm all about equal rights.

I think everybody has the right to equality of life, and the right to work will be taken away if we're taking away the sliding wage option.

GERTRUDE MATEMBA-MUTASA, CEO, Lifeworks Services: People with disabilities can bring value to your businesses.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Back near Minneapolis, Gertrude Matemba-Mutasa the CEO of Lifeworks, a nonprofit that helps people with disabilities find day support services, like volunteering and field trips, and seek paid work options too.

In 2017, Lifeworks came out against 14(c) and stopped connecting clients to jobs that paid less than minimum wage.

GERTRUDE MATEMBA-MUTASA: Eighty-eight percent of the employers we were working with transitioned to minimum wage, and they are thriving.

What really made the difference was really making the business case to employers to say, think of this as part of your diversity strategy, bringing in diverse employees who are going to have unique life experiences, unique skills and can add a tremendous amount of value.

STATE SEN. PAUL UTKE (R-MN): They're not capable of putting out the job performance that people typically making minimum wage and above are getting.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But former business owner and Minnesota State Senator Paul Utke says most employers can't afford that business model.

STATE SEN. PAUL UTKE: You have got to make things -- at the end of the day, make things work pay-wise.

I mean, what's your output versus your investment?

We're all paid for what we can do.

Their reimbursement is kind of based on what they're being able to put out.

JUDY WOODRUFF: In Minneapolis, Erik works eight hours a week, on average, and hopes to increase that time.

For now, he has a job he loves and a paycheck he says he spends on those who love him.

ERIK MARSCHEL (through computer voice): I really like to be able to buy my parents things for their birthdays.

It makes me feel proud to provide for my needs.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What would you want other people who have disabilities to know?

ERIK MARSCHEL (through computer voice): I am sharing my story to help make sure other people with disabilities can find success as well.

Don't be afraid.

It may take some time, but it is worth it.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Just what opponents of 14(c) programs want to hear, even as some families worry other meaningful jobs for people with disabilities will go away.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Judy Woodruff in Minneapolis and Park Rapids, Minnesota.

AMNA NAWAZ: This week's Nobel Prizes are once again highlighting groundbreaking work in the sciences and in medicine.

William Brangham spoke with one of the winners whose work led to a profound change in tackling the pandemic.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This award was given to two people whose breakthrough work on messenger RNA made possible the creation of the COVID-19 vaccines, which have saved millions of lives around the world and helped bring a global pandemic under control.

One of those award winners joins us now, Hungarian-born biochemist Katalin Kariko.

She's also just published a very well-timed memoir called "Breaking Through: My Life in Science."

Katalin Kariko, so good to have you on the "NewsHour."

Enormous congratulations to you on this award.

We're just a few days now post this announcement.

I'm curious, how is this all sitting with you right now?

KATALIN KARIKO, Nobel Prize Winner: Thank you very much for inviting me.

Yes, it is a little bit hectic time, and didn't have enough time to settle all of this news about winning the Nobel Prize.

I just cannot believe it.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Did you do anything special to celebrate?

KATALIN KARIKO: Not really.

I was so tired.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Come on, not even a single glass of champagne or anything?

KATALIN KARIKO: Well, yes, we drank, yes, a little Hungarian wine.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Excellent.

Excellent.

As I mentioned, you were awarded this Nobel for years of dogged work that you and your colleague did on messenger RNA and your belief that in fact it would prove to be so revolutionary.

I'm curious, how is it that, when you look back, that you explain your belief that this little molecule could be so powerful?

KATALIN KARIKO: So, at 1989, when I started to work with messenger RNA, at the beginning, there were -- it was not as powerful as today.

It was like a very tiny amount of protein could be produced, which was seen for many people that is irrelevant for any kind of therapeutic use.

But, as time went by, just incremental improvement could be made.

And then, later, we -- when we could see in the mice some effect, then we thought that, oh, maybe it is useful for human also.

So, it was, like, incremental.

And we just -- we could improve the product.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But, as you detail in your memoirs, I mean, you had to push through years and years of skepticism and people who didn't believe you, institutions that didn't believe in you, people who pushed you out, even forced you to retire in some instances.

And yet you kept persevering.

You knew somewhere in the back of your mind that your work would be vindicated?

KATALIN KARIKO: I mean, I don't blame anybody for such action, but because I'm not focused on those people who were just a naysayer.

I always had one or two person who believed also with me, and then we proceeded together.

I don't blame.

I am not that kind of person.

It's fine.

I understand, the system is not set up properly.

That's what I would say.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The COVID vaccines, the arrival of the pandemic and then the development of the COVID vaccines, using this breakthrough obviously was proof to the world.

And, as I mentioned, your breakthrough saved millions of lives globally.

I mean, that has to be incredibly gratifying, Nobel Prize or not.

KATALIN KARIKO: Yes, indeed.

So, I -- 10 years ago, I started to work at the BioNTech.

And, 2018, BioNTech, Pfizer signed an agreement to develop mRNA-based vaccine for influenza.

And we already proceeded for two years.

We were ready with the product.

So -- and when COVID came, then we just had to change the template and we could have the right vaccine.

So, I was always happy that I was part of the -- this process.

That's how I felt.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As your memoir details, you came to the United States from remarkably modest circumstances back in Hungary, came here as a postdoc with $1,200 in cash stitched into the clothes of your child's teddy bear.

I mean, when you look at that trajectory to where you came from, to where you are today, do you ever reflect on that?

Do you ever stop and think how far you have come along?

KATALIN KARIKO: Yes, of course.

But if I say that my father had six elementary education and I grew up in a very modest home in a very small place, and I went on and went to university, I finished high school, went to university, and I went to then get Ph.D., and that was already -- if I keep looking back, it would be such a distance.

So, it is -- yes, this is a very long, long distance.

But I more, like, look forward and ahead, rather than keep looking back at, oh, that's a long distance.

(LAUGHTER) KATALIN KARIKO: Now, I should rest a little bit now.

(LAUGHTER) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: No resting at all, it sounds like.

KATALIN KARIKO: No.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I know you also did not go into this to become a champion of women in science, but the fact is, very few women have won this award.

I believe you're the 13th out of some 200 for the Nobel in medicine.

How do you view all the accolades that you're getting that you are yet another champion for women in science?

KATALIN KARIKO: Yes, many very talented scientists are there.

And they could not advance, because, yes, still, we give birth, and we have to take care of the child, but we have to share that responsibility with our partner, so that I keep telling them that find the right guy.

(LAUGHTER) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Find the right guy, that's good advice, yes.

KATALIN KARIKO: Yes.

And I tell them, you don't have to choose between family and profession, because my daughter turned out fine.

She's a two-times Olympic champion.

She finished -- get Ivy League school finished here, and she get an MBA at UCLA.

So she did very well.

She learned just seeing me and my husband working hard.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It's a truly remarkable life and career.

And it sounds like you're only just getting started.

Katalin Kariko, it's such a pleasure to talk to you.

Congratulations on the Nobel Prize.

Thank you so much for talking with us.

KATALIN KARIKO: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: He was inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame twice.

He's been knighted.

He's acted in many films and on TV, including as Mr.

Conductor right here on PBS.

To the world, he is simply Ringo.

Ringo Starr, former Beatles drummer, now 83 years old, has a new recording out this month and is on tour.

Jeffrey Brown joined him in Los Angeles for our arts and culture series, Canvas.

JEFFREY BROWN: He's youthful and fit, as recognizable as when the Beatles first took the world by storm nearly 60 years ago, performing with his own All-Starr Band, which he's led in various forms since 1989 and now releasing a new E.P.

titled "Rewind Forward."

For Ringo Starr the music has always been there.

RINGO STARR, Musician: That's what I do?

That's why I had a dream of 13 to be a drummer, and I hit that drum, and I knew immediately I wanted to be a drummer.

JEFFREY BROWN: What did you hear?

I mean, what happened?

RINGO STARR: I don't know.

It's like magic.

Oh, yes, I just love music.

I love -- and I wanted to play.

And there's not a lot of point being the drummer if you have no one else.

What would you do, just me and the drums?

(LAUGHTER) RINGO STARR: Yes, it doesn't work.

You need the others.

JEFFREY BROWN: The others would become John Lennon, Paul McCartney and George Harrison, together, The Beatles, the most, beloved important and influential band in rock 'n' roll history.

By his mid-20s, Ringo was world-famous, giving the Beatles a backbeat and a whole lot of personality.

But he started life as Richard Starkey, a sickly child in and out of hospitals, a poor kid trying to make his way in working-class Liverpool, England.

We talked about it recently at the Sunset Marquis, a famed Hollywood hotel, complete with its own NightBird recording studio in the basement.

RINGO STARR: I was always working on the railways, on the boats, in the factory forever.

JEFFREY BROWN: What was that young boy's, your hopes and dreams at that time?

And what could you imagine?

RINGO STARR: Well, it all felt like it was something I was doing until I could do what I wanted to do, which was play.

And the first band I was in was a factory band.

We used to play at the -- in the lunch hour to the men.

And they'd all be telling us to leave, in not quite a nice way.

(LAUGHTER) JEFFREY BROWN: He eventually joined Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, one of the top bands in Liverpool, then got to know another up-and-coming group with a different drummer at the time, The Beatles, up close when both bands were booked into the same Hamburg, Germany, club.

RINGO STARR: It was 12 hours at the weekend between two bands, so you get to know your own band.

But we would try and top them.

They would try and top us.

And the top wasn't very high then, but we were still -- we want the crowd, and they want the crowd.

So it was a great learning space.

JEFFREY BROWN: The Beatles asked Ringo to join them, and the rest, of course, is history.

And what history, especially if you were on the inside.

In the hotel's photo gallery, Ringo noticed a 1964 shot of the group with Muhammad Ali, then still Cassius Clay.

RINGO STARR: This was, like, early and first time in America.

Like, when we flew over New York, I felt New York saying, come on down.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes.

RINGO STARR: And we were finally in America, the land of all our music that we loved.

JEFFREY BROWN: Because you had listened to American music, I know, as a kid.

RINGO STARR: Yes.

Yes.

And I come from a port where every other house had someone who was in the merchant navy.

And they would bring records over.

And so we heard a lot of sort of country and blues and stuff that England wasn't getting first.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yes.

And are the personalities coming out?

RINGO STARR: Yes, I think so.

(LAUGHTER) RINGO STARR: What?

JEFFREY BROWN: Is that you?

(LAUGHTER) RINGO STARR: Yes.

JEFFREY BROWN: They would have nearly eight years together, countless hit songs, epic changing albums.

RINGO STARR: Someone's got hold of me finger.

JOHN LENNON, Musician: Are you trying to attract attention again?

JEFFREY BROWN: Fun-filled films.

Everyone knew The Beatles, the music and the individuals.

For Ringo, who grew up an only child, it was as personal as could be.

RINGO STARR: Got three brothers, and we were very close.

And besides the touring, when -- we always shared a room.

We only ever got two rooms.

It was important, and I think part of our makeup, that we stayed together and closeness, and we really got to know each other and knew where we're coming from.

And that certainly happened.

JEFFREY BROWN: Ringo, behind his drum kit, sang several songs written by the others, including this one.

(MUSIC) JEFFREY BROWN: And though far overshadowed by his songwriting partners, he did write a few himself.

That helped later in his post-Beatles career.

RINGO STARR: The interesting thing that not a lot of people know is that, when I'd first present my songs, the rest of the band would be rolling on the floor laughing, because I'd really just rewritten some other song.

It wasn't my song at all.

I just, like, reworded it.

And they would say, yes, sure.

(LAUGHTER) RINGO STARR: But that's how I started.

I got out of that and started making my own moves.

But George was really helpful.

He produced the first couple of singles that I put out.

And God bless him.

JEFFREY BROWN: The Beatles' end in 1970 is much discussed, much debated.

Peter Jackson's 2021 documentary series "The Beatles Get Back" focused on a key final period.

Most important to Ringo, who says he loved the film, capturing their closeness, as well as the tensions.

RINGO STARR: Peter Jackson was going to do it.

We would hook up in L.A. several times.

And we'd find parts.

And I kept telling him, we were laughing.

We were brothers.

We had arguments.

We had fun.

And we're playing with each other.

And I have -- it's not all that dark.

JEFFREY BROWN: And you wanted that to come through.

RINGO STARR: And I want it to come through, like it's a real band.

JEFFREY BROWN: After the breakup, each Beatle went solo.

Ringo, now his own front man, had a string of hits, including "It Don't Come Easy."

In fact, he says it didn't.

You have also talked about some of the difficulties there, including struggles.

RINGO STARR: Well, the first -- when it was first split up, I sat in the garden, wondering what to do.

It was like, that's it now.

What -- you're so used to that job.

And we worked a lot.

But then, suddenly, well, it's over.

And it's really over.

Yes, I had a moment of, like, reflection.

And I started to play with other artists.

JEFFREY BROWN: And that's what he's continued to do, along with a few other things, including acting.

He met his wife, Barbara Bach, while working together on the 1981 movie "Caveman."

RINGO STARR: This new train schedule is tommyrot, balderdash, and cuckoo.

JEFFREY BROWN: And he played Mr.

Conductor on the children's series "Shining Time Station."

He marks his birthday every year with a peace and love celebration.

That, he says, is his one birthday wish.

And, most of all, the music endures.

RINGO STARR: Our audiences are bigger than they were and younger than they were.

It's really weird, far out.

And we will see.

There's no guarantee, but we're doing it with our heart a blazing.

JEFFREY BROWN: And we started talking about that young boy back in Liverpool.

RINGO STARR: It's far out, isn't it?

JEFFREY BROWN: And here -- it is, but here you are.

RINGO STARR: I live in L.A. You know how far out that is, you know?

It's weird.

JEFFREY BROWN: It's weird, but you're still going.

RINGO STARR: I'm still going, yes.

(LAUGHTER) JEFFREY BROWN: For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey Brown in Los Angeles.

AMNA NAWAZ: Peace and love, and the music endures.

And that is the "NewsHour" for tonight.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire team, thank you for joining us.