The think tank down in southeast Michigan.

It's nice to have you on board.

Let's start with a simple Yo u know, the governor has got Wo uld you write a letter recommending to them that there has to be a tax increase to improve services in Michigan to attract people to Would you sign such a letter, sir?

To me, it's always great to be with you.

And listening to the first segment, I'm reminded why we do and you do politics.

But as you point out, this is an i I think our study shows that we have a real revenue problem in the state, and a tax increase is one way to address that.

But it's not the only way.

Part of the problem in the state as our t has eroded, as we have failed to grow as a state, we have just done marginal budgeting for the last 20 years and honestly, the And so we're trying to do the same things with less money and we're not doin The statistics show that we're 36 in educational outcomes, 39th in health outcomes, 47th in road funding.

So, you know, you sort of get what you pay for.

So a tax increase has to be on the table, but at the same time, maybe it's time to take a hard look at what the state' and say we just can't afford to do everything that we've always done and therefore we can divert money and do some things better.

So if you'll pardon the expression, a hybrid approach, a tax increase along with belt tightening, everything has to be on the table.

Sure.

Eric, that sort of, you know, laid the groundwork for this work.

The Population council that Whitmer appointed is doing Michigan, you know, over the past 30 years ranks 49th out of 50 states for population growth, I believe.

Of all your research, what's the most startling data point or factor for that population stagnation, in your opinion?

So on the population side, when we really dug into the numbers and found out how much of our youn that's really for the last 20 years or maybe a little bit longer been the story of why we haven't grown as a state to many of our young people are getting their high school diploma or college degree and saying, don't you know, 40 other states look better?

I want to go to Memphis or Nashville or Houston or Denver or someplace else, that the grass looks greener there.

And so as we think about the future of the young talent here to grow and to do the And we're an old state already.

We're going to get older with that la on the policy side to find out that we are now 46th in the country and effective tax rate.

Michigan was a high tech state not that long ago where that was working against us.

As we tried to do economic developm Your taxes are too high.

I can do this better s 46th in the in the nation.

That's a huge fall.

And now we've had the personal ou t that show that Michigan relative to the U.S. average is as low as it's been.

So, you know, we started doing the study ha ving done this work for 37 years, was none of this is new.

This is all issues that we, the Citizens Research Council and we the people of Michigan, have been talking about for years.

But to pull it all together and to see the interconnectedness, this is, again, really eye opening.

How different is this situation, though, Eric?

Because it seems like we've had stagnant population for The young people are always going to Chicago or New York because the grass is greener and more exciting.

Is the current dynamic any really any diffe No.

You know, when we put out our first report back in May, I talked to several of your and they said, you know what's different this time?

We've been talking about this for years And and I didn't have a good answer, except for now people are paying attention.

The governor's office has leaned on for this.

The chambers of commerce, business leade people across the aisle have come together and said, you know what?

We can't just kick this can down the road anymore.

I wish I could take credit for that.

We were in the right place at the right And thanks to the foundations that it's increased attention to it this time where there hasn't been in the past.

But, Eric, why don't why should people care?

Why should we care that we're stuc What difference does it make?

You know, there's nothing magical about 10 million versus 11 or 12 o But it's that missing middle part of our population that should be concerning as we think about aging as a population and people leaving the workforce, Who's going to be around to be the next floor manager at the Ac Widget Company, who's going to be taking care of us as we grow into our retirement and we need home care workers or nurses or doctors.

It's it's how the economy is going to operate in the future with so few people that are part of the workforce.

And if we can start addressing these things now, maybe we can start attracting people and growing that population, getting young families here that want to be part of the state, want to enjoy the beauty around us with our lakes and forests and everything we have to offer.

But just accepting that ten million's a good number and life will go on.

Doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

How big of a problem does it pose?

The fact that the number of Americans who move across state lines has declined over the years, and so is that Michigan kind of just competing for a shrinking pool of folks who are willing to try to move to a different state who aren't from Michigan?

Well, it's a shrinking core of people movin And we can't do anything about how many people want to move.

But those that do think about wanting to be someplace else and certainly MDC and all the local economic development agencies are in the business of trying to attract businesses.

And with businesses come, people go.

So, you know, we have to play on the field that's that's given to with the rules that are given and we're we're not winning right now.

I know that you're not diving into the auto strike thing, but as you look at this situation unfolding, what do you think the impact is on Michigan an sending to folks who think I don't really don't want to go to that state, You know, I thought about that.

At the same time, we have to grow Michigan toge Counsel trying to think about how we can do things better and how think about pure Michigan and telling our story better.

And at the same time, on the national news, people are seeing the picketers on the front line and the the strife between labor and business And they're seeing it on Michigan.

Right.

They're not going down to th plants to look at peopl They're coming to Michigan for that.

So it really puts us on the fron Some people will really appreciate the strength of the middle class, the strength of the unions in But for a lot of stuff that going to the state, do you think the union movement in attracting people?

I don't think it hurts us, but, you know, it's something out of our control.

We are a manufacturing state and it's part of the who we are as a state.

We have to part of our studies.

We have to be better at diversifying our and growing the high wage jobs so that we're less dependent on those auto auto jobs, that union jobs, things like that.

And and that's part of the problem is we're so dependent o Patti Anderson points out, for this to go on much longer just would cripple the state and the economy.

The revenues coming into the state and local government.

So I think it's the dependance that's the issue.

Not so much that we're the unions are so big here.

Eric Tim started this conver about the potential for raising taxes.

A lot of Republican candidates and officials have said, well, maybe the answer is actually cutting taxes.

You know, the income tax.

They look at state like What what does the data show about that?

Is that a major factor for people choosing 30 seconds.

I.

It is a factor, but it's not the most important fact People want quality of life.

The beauty of Florida being able to cut taxes is they have a place that people want to come because o and oranges and Mickey Mouse.

We just don't have that.

So we're.

Thank you very much for all the work you do on the policy.

Did you enjoy the political discussion?

It's great to be on the outside looking in.

Nicely put.

Would Also, our thanks to our great pane See you next week here for more off