(lighthearted music) - [ Announcer] Roots, Race & Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat jazz music) - Hello and welcome to Roots, Race and Culture, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Lonzo Liggins.

- And I'm Danor Gerald.

Today we're going to uncover the roots of a fascinating and mysterious part of American history and culture.

And the epicenter of this story is Ogden, Utah.

- Anyone who grew up in Utah should know that Ogden was once the transcontinental railroad junction city of the west, where the Union Pacific and Central Pacific Railroads met.

- You know Lonzo, one of the things that I noticed when I first moved to Utah in 2003 was that people assumed that I was either a student athlete or that I was from Ogden.

(Lonzo laughing) - Yeah, well, it's not just the air force base that made Ogden so diverse.

Ogden is the unofficial mecca for black history in Utah.

To unravel Ogden's rich black history, we have an icon of Utah's black community, Betty Sawyer.

- Welcome.

- Betty, please take a moment to introduce yourself.

- Hello, Betty Sawyer.

I am president of the Ogden branch of the NAACP, the nations' oldest civil rights organization.

And direct the local nonprofit there as well.

- Thank you for joining us.

- What's the nonprofit?

- Project Success Coalition, and we started the Utah Juneteenth Festival - Whoah!

There we go!

- from my organization, thirty three years ago.

- Wow!

- We'd like to hear more about that.

- Yes.

- Also, we have another distinguished guest with us, Sarah McClellan.

Could you introduce yourself, Sarah?

- Hi, guys.

My name is Sarah McClellan, and I'm the executive director for Northern Utah Coalition.

We work with HIV, Aids and Hepatitis C. And I'm the unofficial Ogden historian - Oh!

Okay!

- because I have been in Ogden for fifty-three years.

(Lonzo whistles) - Nice.

- That's a time.

So, we want to hear more about what you've seen as time has gone through and changed Ogden.

But we want to just start off...

There's a lot of things to unpack here, but first, we want to understand, what was it that led so many black people to the state and to Ogden?

What was that like and what happened?

- Well, with me, my family...

I had an older sister.

I'm the youngest of eleven, so I'll just throw that out there.

And I had a sister that was twenty years older than I was and they came to Ogden.

Her husband got out of World War II and came to Ogden in 1946.

And I came to Ogden because my sister encouraged me to come.

- [Danor] Okay, so family was coming here?

- I have a family that came here in 1946 and that's how I happened to be in Ogden.

- Yeah.

So, black folk started migrating up from the South 'cause we know they were going to Chicago, they were going to New York.

Why Utah?

What brought black people specifically to Utah?

- I think a big part of it was the railroad as well as the military, Hill Air Force Base, Dugway Proving Ground, DDO Ogden.

So, job opportunity, like everybody else.

And when they got here they didn't see anybody that looked like them.

They started recruiting all their family and friends.

"Come to Utah!"

- Help us.

(all laugh) - Because my oldest brother brought me to Utah.

I'd never heard of Utah, and he came home from my grandfather's funeral and said, "You should come to Utah.

The mountains, the people."

And it took me two weeks to see a black person.

It's like, "where am I?"

(Lonzo laughing) Ready to go back to Maryland.

- So they come up here to Utah for the first time.

Are they accepted here?

I mean, is it a struggle?

- Well, I would wonder why they would stay because on the railroad you're going back and forth, right?

- Right.

So, they stay, they come up here.

So what was life like for them back then when they were here?

- For most of them, it was pretty decent.

I mean, the discrimination of course was a part of it.

Ogden was red-lined like a lot of other places, restrictive covenants.

So they lived in about an eight block radius, in those early days from like 25th to about 30th and below Washington Boulevard to Wall Avenue.

And so that's where they had to live and they made community in those few blocks.

- You want to chime in there?

- You could not live above Washington Boulevard.

They would not show you property above Washington Boulevard.

My sister's husband bought a house in 1955, and they were not shown property above Washington Boulevard.

So that's what Betty said.

There was in a certain perimeter where they all lived.

- So that was just the neighborhood?

- So it was just a little perimeter where they would say, "This is us, and y'all just stay out."

- Was he working for the railroad when he got here?

- Yes, he got a job and he became a chef/cook on the Union Pacific Railroad.

- Oh, we have some photos, actually.

If we could pull that photo up of some of the railroad workers from that time.

- A lot of the porters at that time.

So those are the jobs that a lot of black- And the porters were high paying jobs, right?

- [Betty] They were.

And there were a lot of college students that came and got those jobs, as well as older people.

People from some of our historical black colleges and universities got jobs during the summer as porters and waiters, and that's how they made their money.

They would go back home and go to school then come back the next summer and work for the railroad.

- So outside of the porters, there probably wasn't a lot of work, I would guess.

- They had cooks on the railroad.

You had cooks, you had porters and waiters.

You had the porters and the waiters, and I forget... - [Betty] Red Caps.

- Red Caps.

Yeah, you had Red Caps.

- What are the Red Caps?

Remind me.

- Red Caps, they wore a red hat but they would help you with your baggages and getting around the Union Pacific 'cause that was great, especially during World War II.

There was a lot of traffic going through Ogden, going to California and to Las Vegas.

- And so just to make sure, for those people who've never ridden on a train or anything like that, what was it that made Ogden such an important place?

So, you had to get off of one train, and get onto a different one, or something like that?

- We were the hub, like you had shared.

This was a junction.

It was called Junction City for a long time and that was connecting the East to the West.

And so Ogden was a place that they would leave to go to California and places like that.

So it became a hub.

A lot of folk, they were on their way whether it was to Vegas or to California, ended up in Ogden, sometimes staying over.

The musicians, Count Basie...

Some of those guys take a gig while they're here for their layover and made Ogden not just that junction but a swinging town.

- Within that frame, at that time when you had all of these musicians, you had all these people coming through.

So it's clear that black folks moved up here from the South.

They started to enjoy somewhat life in Utah but they made a community for themselves.

- Yeah.

- And it was a bus-link community apparently, right?

So they had some good clubs and good- - Well, there's one place that I've heard of, you said porters and waiters.

And someone started it.

- Yes.

Miss Anna Belle and her husband.

Anna Belle Wheatley and her husband, Billy Wheatley.

They started the club and they had residential areas too because they had sleeping rooms- - [Lonzo] There's Anna Belle Wheatley right there.

- [Danor] Oh, there she is right there.

- [Lonzo] That's it.

So they started a really popular... One of the most popular clubs in the United States.

- [Betty] It was.

And you couldn't get hotel rooms.

- They had a third floor that was used as a motel because blacks could not stay in a motel downtown.

- In downtown Ogden- - Downtown Ogden and downtown Salt Lake City.

- That was the motel to go to.

- Except the Royal Hotel.

- Except the Royal?

So the Royal Hotel and the Porters and Waiters Club were the two places that you could go.

And the Royal Hotel was a black hotel as well?

- Yes.

- Was that in Ogden as well?

- Yeah, Leager Davis- - Davis owned Royal Hotel.

And it's on the register- - And so is all this inside of that perimeter that you guys were describing?

- Yes.

- So, where is this perimeter that you speak of in Ogden?

- Wall Avenue, the main street you come in, that's 100 East, and Washington Boulevard is 400 East.

So that was the space that most of the folk lived.

- And in between that and about 5 different You have Grant, you have Lincoln, some other little small streets.

And Grant and some other little street in between.

So between Washington and Wall, that's what you have.

- So, I want to kind of get into what...

So a lot of people are passing through, famous people, but there must have been some people who stayed who were pretty well known for what they contributed as well.

Were there any of these musicians who stuck around?

I mean, how did that work?

- Joe McQueen.

We lost him a couple of years ago.

He lived to be 100 years old.

Saxophonist.

And he had come here for a gig, and as he tells us- - He was a famous saxophonist, right?

- Yes, very famous.

He played with all of the Duke Ellington and Count Basie and all of those folk.

And the guy stiffed him on the pay and so he ended up sticking around for a week, and a week turned into a month, and a month turned into like 75 years living in Ogden and being a part of that jazz scene forever.

- Wow!

- Yes - That's amazing.

- Were any other type of artists besides musicians?

I understand there was a poet who was also from Utah, Wallace Thurman, does that ring a bell?

- Yes, uh-huh, yes - Tell me about him.

- He ended up down at the U of U but was in the Ogden area for a while as well.

So very famous poet.

Left his mark.

And like I said, a lot of folk there, a lot of firsts that took place in Utah because we were those pioneers.

You had to just like we created community there, they had to create whatever part of community that they wanted to be a part of because other things weren't available.

I can remember even coming here, wanting to go out and clubs closing at midnight and I'm just getting ready to leave the house.

(all laugh) It's like, "They're closing."

You know, in the city you go out late.

Nobody wants to be the first one out.

- So, Sarah, I want to hear about the Royal Hotel.

The Royal Hotel, I know that this is a renowned hotel and I know you know a lot about it.

Tell us a little bit about that hotel.

- A lady name is Davis because when folks was coming through they didn't have anywhere to stay.

Even when Count Basie and the Duke Ellington would play in Salt Lake City, they would have to leave Salt Lake City and come to Ogden after they performed in Salt Lake City in order to stay because there wasn't anywhere for them to stay in Salt Lake City.

And we had what we call a Bamberger.

A Bamberger is a street car that ran on rails, and it would leave Salt Lake at a certain time and that's how folks didn't have a lot of cars and they would ride the Bamberger.

The Bamberger is a street car - [Danor] Right that came from Salt Lake to Ogden - Like a light rail?

- Like a light rail.

(laughing) - Streetcar?

- Yeah, like the street car in San Francisco but it runs all the way up to Ogden.

- It ran through Ogden.

And so people like Duke Ellington and all of them that would perform here at Hotel Utah that they would come to Ogden to stay at the Royal Hotel and at the Anna Belle Wheatley place.

And they would live there and they would jam as of that because I used to go down there to Anna Belle's.

'cause she had a restaurant also.

- We got some photos actually of the Ogden nightlife and some people doing some things and - [Lonzo] Having some good times in Ogden.

See here we go right there.

- [Danor] Do you recognize any of these?

There's a group of singers.

- [Sarah] That group that's singing, one of the guys in the middle is Ed Taylor.

- [Danor] The Chaperones - [Sarah] Uh-huh.

- [Betty] The Chaperones - [Lonzo] The Chaperones - [Danor] The Chaperones - [Sarah] Yeah.

- [Danor] Who's that in the middle?

- [Lonzo] Ed Taylor.

- [Sarah] Ed Taylor.

- [Lonzo] Is he just the lead singer?

- [Sarah] They go just folks from Ogden.

- [Lonzo] Oh, they're local folks, - That's not the - Not the famous Chaperone.

- That's not the famous chaperone, that's the Ogden Chaperone (all laugh) - We were like everybody else all the other doo-wop groups when they get together.

- Doo-wop stuff and Annabelle Wheatley even signed with one of the guys that's in that with Bill Wheatley.

He's one of the folks that's part of- - Time frame here, are we talking about pre-1964 before LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act or what's the time frame just to kind of help us understand this.

- From probably the mid 40s through the mid 60s when a lot of this was going on so I like to - I came to Utah in 1966 - [Danor] OK so it was right around the time the Civil Rights- - And so there's still a lot of segregation going on - Because there was an elementary school located in that kind of eight to ten block area the Pingree Elementary School in Ogden so most of the folk walk to the school that was the school they went to before they were able to go to the other schools in the community - And earlier you mentioned to me that there's a building a community center - [Betty] Yes - Can you tell me a little bit about the history of that?

- The Marshall White Community Center so for awhile the blacks were able to go the Wall Avenue Recreation Center and it was falling apart and so the community NAACP and others worked together to get- - May interject something about that?

- Yes, uh-huh - That, what she's talking about was the NCO Club for black soldiers out from Hill Air Force Base because black soldiers that were stationed at Hill Air Force base could not go to the NCO club on the base.

- Oh it was segregated too?

- And so they built a place for them to come on 27th and Wall and the black soldiers would come in to Ogden - [Danor] Oh wow.

- to socialize, so I just wanted to throw in- - And you want to throw in the black soldiers usually the community it was opened up after the soldiers left for the community to use as a rec center.

- (indistinct) - and it was dilapidated and no investment the community got together the black community and petitioned the City as well as the Federal Government to get moneys to build the Marshall White Center.

- Now who's Marshall White?

- Marshall M White was a police officer and at the time of his death he was President of the Ogden NAACP, and he was killed in the line of duty - [Lonzo] This is him right here - [Betty] and so with that when they were looking at naming the facility his name rose to the top of the list to honor him in naming and up until about 3 years ago the Marshall White Center was the only public building in the state of Utah named after an African-American.

- Oh wow, that's really great!

- Yes and so- - There's another one too - Yes, Jackson Elementary School here in Salt Lake they recently named a particular school after one of the educators that was there for many many years and so you know with the Marshall White Center we're going into another phase and looking into getting a brand new facility built - Oh, so they are redoing it.

- The city has agreed and you know, like anything else, make sure the money stays where it needs to stay so send money but they're scheduled to close the building this spring to start demolition and building a new facility and as a part of our community efforts, it was important for it to stay on the same footprint.

That the existing center in that inner city of Ogden and keep the name of Marshall White continue to honor his Legacy in the facility - So after the Civil Rights Bill passes what was Ogden like after, post segregation, I mean was, how did life transform for black folks?

What do you think, Sarah?

- One of the things, houses changed because at one time you could only live in that certain area.

Because they had two buildings, I don't know if you heard about Sahara Villa and Arsenal Villa that where with the government housing that only blacks could live in in rural Utah.

And one was an Antelope Drive - Uh-huh - And blacks lived there.

My sister and her family in the 40s and the 50s lived in Arsenal Villa in Roy Utah.

And wasn't nothing living in Arsenal Villa but black folks.

- It was on Antelope drive like as you're going out to the Great Salt Lake - No, there was another one called Sahara Villa on Antelope Drive.

- Mm, OK - It was two of them.

(laughs) - (indistinct) I grew up in Salt Lake.

I spent very little time in (indistinct) My father came out here from the military in '86.

At the time I remember there was like an all black community, a smaller all black community, and you don't se that in Salt Lake City - [Sarah] Right - You see it primarily in Ogden.

Is that still a thing today?

Is there still like a black community where a lot of black people live?

- A lot of us are still there but it is scattered, just like any other community.

When housing opened up in other areas, we don't have to live here anymore, we can go out and venture out in North Ogden, South Ogden, a lot of folk moved into the Davis County area as well because they had newer housing stock and things of that nature, but when you were talking about that transition, it's almost like today just because they change the law that don't mean that they change nobody's mindset (all laugh) so there was still discrimination going on even though it wasn't legal - Right, right.

- for it to happen, but people had ways of keeping you from getting a house from above Washington or certain areas.

Mr. Gillespie talks about when he bought his home out in Washington Terrace, someone put a bomb in his mailbox.

And that was, you know- - Dizzy Gillespie?

- James Gillespie - Oh James Gillespie!

- He was NAACP president for about 30 years in Ogden, but people weren't ready for it yet.

- Well there were always a lot of arts and things in a community like that.

Whenever we get together.

So, were there any other institutions besides those hotels and that sort of thing?

Theaters or other things that people were doing to create black history in Ogden, Utah?

- Well the church was a big part of that and we did everything at church.

The cooking went on at church, the dances, the plays, all of those things so church became a very essential part.

And even in Ogden's inner city, that area there's still probably seven or eight predominantly African-American churches that are still - [Danor] Oh wow!

- in that same space, and so that became a big part of it and then just arts in general you know over the years several art companies Nurture the Creative Mind that was working with young people to do art work, we have some poet collectives and things of that nature.

Just trying to keep culture alive.

- That's great, well we actually have two sisters who are creating black history today in Ogden Utah with a theater company.

Alonzo you're familiar with them.

- That's right - You've worked with them.

- It's Alicia Washington and Camille Washington.

- [Danor] Yes - They started this great black theater company up in Ogden called, Good Company Theater.

I've done a few plays there.

Great to work with they do a lot of cutting-edge new stuff and they're actually, uh, one of the sisters, Camille Washington, made a video for us explaining a little bit more about what they actually do, so why don't we go ahead and watch that?

And we can talk about it after.

- Hi, my name is Camille Washington and I am the co-director of Good Company Theater.

We are located in downtown Ogden.

Originally the idea was to be in Ogden because it's where we're from.

Ogden has a great history of cultural production.

It's a great performing arts town and it just felt like a really approachable place to start a contemporary theater space.

On the whole the unique challenges that we've had have to do with us being black women, us being the people who are here, we administrate the entire theater ourself we make all the creative decisions, we manage the facility, we plan the calendar, we raise the funds, we do it all and there have been a lot of people that we interacted with organizations that we've interacted with that aren't used to seeing black people, black women specifically in positions of power, and just in the Arts making their own decisions.

Something that's really exciting about Ogden is that we are the home of the Marshall White Center, which is the only Civic building in the state of Utah dedicated to a black man.

It is getting ready to undergo renovations.

It's in a historically black neighborhood, Ogden's historically black neighborhood, and it's just an important center for the black community and for all communities in Ogden.

One of the heroes I have who is a fixture in the black community in Ogden is Sarah McLellan.

Ms. Sarah, she is the founder of the Northern Utah Coalition which she started about 25 years ago to raise awareness about HIV and AIDS in the black community here.

Good Company Theater develops and promotes high-quality eclectic theatrical productions and events forging new relationships between audiences, performers, and spaces in the process.

- That was great!

- Wow!

- An honor Looks like you're her hero, how does that feel?

(Sarah laughs) Do you know her?

You know Camille, right?

- Yeah, I know Camille, I know her sister.

- [Lonzo] Yeah - I've been around Ogden (all laugh) I've been doing in the community for the last 40 years.

I got the YWCA award back here, when was that, Betty?

Whatever day it was, but yeah, I've been around.

I've been around a long time.

- You two ladies are legends in your own right, and you're one of the things that I always think about from experiences that I've had traveling and things is that you know, black history is also American History.

- Definitely - And, you know, my family was part of The Great Migration from Mississippi to Chicago.

Right, we were all in Chicago and I just never would have known so much culture could be found in Utah and Ogden that I can relate to, so I thank you all for your contribution so much.

- Yeah, absolutely!

Today what would you want us to know about present-day Ogden history?

Why don't we start with you, Betty and then we can close up with you.

You got about a minute-and-a-half each.

- Okay, I would say that Ogden is still a vibrant community and like any other community and inner-city it needs that investment to keep dreams and hopes alive, and that's what we do as a part of our organization, that's our motto, 'Keeping Hope Alive' so we want people to know that there's a place to invest and we are excited about what's going to happen with the Marshall White Center, and how we can make that center and heart beat of Ogden again.

Where arts, athletics, you know most of our big-time athletes have been in and through the Marshall White Center.

Most of our young people got their first jobs at the Marshall White Center as coaches, and running the after-school programs, and things of that nature, and that's what's needed now to continue to build community.

- So people want to donate to that, or help that, how can they help that cause?

- They can reach out to Ogden City Recreation or the Ogden Branch NAACP and we would definitely keep them and make them make those connections for them for this new, improved Marshall White Center, - Yes - in the heart of Ogden.

- Yes.

Alright what do you say?

- I'm going to piggy back on what Betty said, I'll go along with her, but I've seen Ogden grow.

Because when I came to Ogden there was a- In 1966 there I saw a lot of I've seen a lot of changes, especially when I first came to Ogden the Orpheum Theater that's no longer exists, blacks could not sit on the floor, we had to sit up in the balcony and I've seen that change, so I've seen a lot of changes taking place as far as the segregation and for us coming together as a group of people.

I uh used to be more divided but I see later years I see more togetherness with all of the different races I am hoping that will continue because we still have a long way to go.

I still see there's still a lot of segregation and they said somewhere that 11:00 is the most segregated part of the week.

Or the 11:00 on Sunday because we don't go to the same churches and I would like to see us become more together because there's still a lot of segregation going on in Ogden.

And especially for the young folk because with the young people they do not know a lot about their history and that's why I guess I became the unofficial historian and I talked to the young folks about it because they don't have a lot of history of who they are and where their folks came from because that wasn't taught a lot in the public schools in the Ogden school District so I would like to see more of that take place, and more to get the young folks to know who they are because you need to know who you are before you can know where you're going.

- Absolutely we're going to talk more about this a little after the show, but we're going to go ahead and wrap it up.

So that does it for today folks!

Join us next time as we discuss people of color and STEM.

Thanks for joining us for Roots, Race, and Culture, we are out!

(upbeat jazz music) - [Announcer] Roots, Race, and Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat jazz music)