Ohio awaits the abortion decision and COVID cases climb.

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Joining us on Columbus on the Record this week, Laura Bischoff, statehouse reporter for the USA Today Ohio Network.

Terry Casey, Republican strategist.

And Derek Clay, Democratic strategist.

Advocates on both sides of the issue and Ohio lawmakers listened carefully this week as the U.S. Supreme Court heard arguments in what likely will be a landmark abortion case.

The justices are considering the constitutionality of a Mississippi ban on abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy.

It looked like justices were ready to uphold the law and perhaps overrule Roe versus Wade altogether.

Such a decision likely would allow Ohio to start enforcing its so-called heartbeat law, which bans abortion as early as six weeks into pregnancy.

Laura Bischoff What is this?

We have this law that's on the books now that's on hold because of a court decision.

There are other laws bills out there.

What is the mood at the State House right now while we wait for this decision?

Well, I think that the the conservatives who oppose abortion are very excited about this, this potential decision, as you said, Ohio has a number of bills that are kind of like in the mix right now.

They're debating a complete ban on abortions and one that would also allow for civil lawsuits against anybody who facilitates or provides an abortion with no exceptions for rape or incest.

This is similar to the Texas ban that one has 33 Republican co-sponsors on it, and there's another bill I think that's expected to move next week out of committee and maybe to the House floor.

And that has to do with what they're calling born alive abortions.

That's where an abortion is undertaken and somehow the fetus survives into viability.

So Derrick Clay, what do you think happens between now and probably late June, when this decision is handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court?

Well, you know, in in Lebanon, Ohio, their City Council passed an ordinance that basically banned abortion within their city limits.

So what you could see is a number of other municipalities around the state to to take the same approach.

I think that you're going to have, you know, the the Ohio, of course, the the the Legislature is going to be watching this very closely.

There's going to be a number of bills that that will continue to be introduced around banning abortion in Ohio.

But I think you could definitely see other local municipalities taking the route of trying to outlaw it in their in their jurisdiction.

Terry Casey.

Why not just wait now the case has been heard.

It's there.

You know, it's hard to predict a decision based on oral arguments.

We've been wrong before.

People have been very wrong before, but it looks like further restrictions are coming for abortion in in the country.

Maybe a complete overturn of Roe.

Why not have lawmakers just wait until the decision comes out in June to pass any more laws and just do it when it comes when it happens?

This is politics, and people love to speculate on both sides.

The reality is, I think the good news is that America and the world medicine has advanced.

So what was the original standard in 73 has changed with the 92 Casey decision.

No relation to me.

But the question in my mind is where does that gray line hit?

Where do they draw the distinctions in terms of viability, the health of the mother, etc.

So speculation is going to run rampant because that's what people like to do on both sides and both sides like to raise money off this issue.

So the speculation is going to be rampant until we get the June Laura Bishoff.

Is there any talk of a 15 week law like like what is under consideration by the Supreme Court?

Like what is in existence in Mississippi?

Well, a few years ago, Ohio passed a 20 week law and then also Governor DeWine signed into law the heartbeat abortion ban, which means that once a heartbeat can be detected through fetal monitoring, that would be prohibited.

That is often as early as six weeks into into a pregnancy.

I think that with this viability line, you know, right now it's about 23 weeks and moving it back by two months to 15 weeks would set a new kind of a new line in the sand.

But I think then it would immediately be challenged by people who want complete bans or heartbeat bans.

So I think it would just be an incremental step in this fight.

Derek Clay Does this galvanize abortion rights supporters Democrats to be even stronger than they have in the past?

When you lose the right, you tend to be more.

When you're on the you're on offense, you're not playing defense.

It becomes more important, more politically charged, you know, excitable for that.

Do you see Democrats becoming more aggressive in this issue than they have been say in the past 30 years?

Not only Democrats, but I think that you'll see, you know, civil rights organizations get involved.

I think you'll you'll definitely see, you know, abortion more abortion rights advocates get involved with this fight.

And so, you know, as this moves on, I think that you're definitely going to see Democrats banding together, trying to make sure that these laws don't, don't get more contentious in our state.

Terry Casey, the court mentioned this week justices said that you know, this should go.

This is not should be the not should not be the province of the courts that should go to the Legislature.

Let the let the lawmakers decide, let voters decide.

And to appoint one of these local ordinances that was passed recently was in Mason, where they made it a sanctuary for the unborn, basically banning abortion in that city and the three City Council members who voted for that all lost.

Does this put Republicans in a tough spot that they will have to take no meaningful votes on the abortion issue should the court overturn Roe?

Anything is possible as far as what happens.

But clearly in the United States, this is part of the big debate of should we have one rule for the whole nation or should different states be able to do different things?

And even here in the Midwest, I mean, abortion is still going to be legal in the United States.

The question is, where is it legal?

Is it Ohio?

Is it certain cities, as in Illinois?

Obviously New York and California, you're going to keep it.

And then the question again, at what point in time of the viability of the fetus?

Does it become illegal or illegal?

So yes, it could be an issue pro or con for some people, depending upon what ultimately happens with the Supreme Court decision.

Yeah.

All right.

Our next topic, even before the omicron variant makes its presence known in Ohio are COVID cases are spiking new daily cases topped 9,000 this week, the highest level since last January.

Hospitalizations are at their highest rate since then as well.

Governor DeWine says he is monitoring the rising cases and the news about the omicron variants, but there is no hint of any lockdowns or mandates.

Laura Bischoff This seems to be no appetite for any more restrictions.

Even President Biden was steering clear from lockdowns or mandates.

Do we expect any change in state policy as these cases spike and as winter approaches?

No, I don't think so.

And I think the fact that the cases are going up and the hospitalizations are going up is a function of the we're two weeks out after people gather for Thanksgiving.

So there was more exposure.

And I think that the DeWine administration, you'll continue to hear the message of get vacinated, wear a mask.

This is not over.

Terry Casey, what if hospitals start to get over overloaded again?

I mean, the hospital rate, the number of people in the hospital is high as high as it's been in almost 11 months.

If nonessential procedures have to be canceled, might there be more of a stronger, you know, call for mask mandates or lockdowns, shutdown of restaurants, maybe bars by the DeWine administration?

Well your questions is not a might.

If you looked at the Plain Dealer this morning, they had that the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital, the two major hospitals up there, are tightening and limiting certain things they're going to do.

And also, interestingly, both of those major hospital systems said they're going to take back certain requirements and mandates that employees do certain things.

So I think the only thing that's certain in this whole thing is that the more we know actually, the less we know between the new variant and the uncertainty as far as what's covered.

But I think definitely it's going to be push the vaccines, push the boosters because that is the sure way of protection.

The best tool we have.

Derrick Clay You can look at the variant two ways.

One, it might prompt more people to get the vaccine.

But we've also heard concerns from experts that this new variant, you know, the vaccine may not stop it.

So do you think this variant is going to push vaccine vaccinations higher or is it going to keep some folks from getting the shot?

You know, I think the people that have already been vaccinated are definitely going to go and get their booster so that those folks will definitely go and make sure that they got their booster shot moving forward, the people that have not gotten vaccinated yet, I don't see that there's going to be a huge spike in people that are getting vaccinated.

I mean, part of the reason why we're in this predicament is because people are not getting vaccinated when they surely have that option and the vaccination is not just to protect them, but to protect the public as well.

Laura Bischoff The lawmakers are considering banning vaccine mandates.

It's back on the table again, coincidentally, as there is a spike in cases and a new variant on the horizon.

What's the status of that bill?

So that's a House bill that passed out of the House last week, the week before it was shortly before Thanksgiving, and it's now pending in the Senate.

I think it's future there is cloudy given the Senate President Matt Huffman has said that he does not support legislation that would take away employers ability to tell employees, you have to you have to do X, Y and Z in order to work at this place.

X, Y and Z being like, you have to get vaccinated, get a flu shot.

Things of that nature.

Yeah, it's harder to sell that to when you keep hearing reports of rising cases, rising hospitalizations, shutting down, non-essential procedures in and the variants not even here.

Yet, as far as we know.

The COVID pandemic will have lasting consequences of course, one could be its effect on municipal income taxes here in Ohio.

Many of us pay city income taxes to the city where we work, not necessarily to the city where we live.

Last year, the pandemic forced many to work from home, and now many will choose to work from home going forward.

And then city income taxes will stay home as well.

The new law, a new law and new reality hits Columbus hard.

It projects 6.3 percent decrease in the city's income tax revenue next year.

To make up for that shortfall, the city will dip deeply into its cash reserves.

Derrick Clay, do you do you see the system changing?

We have the arrangement where you if you live in a suburb, you work in Columbus, you pay your income tax to Columbus, and they and the city where you live won't charge you.

Do you see that arrangement changing now as more people work from home?

Well, you know, I think it's going to depend on how how far these these projections dip in these cities.

You know, Columbus is very blessed in the fact that we have a pretty healthy reserve.

You know, there was an income tax increase that was passed, you know, several years ago under the Coleman administration.

So we're in a we're in a good spot financially, but some of these cities that may not be in such a such a great financial position, they're going, they're going to feel the effects of this.

You know, one of my employees works works in the Lancaster area and you know, her income tax is now going to be taken from from the city of Lancaster versus the city of Columbus.

So I think that moving forward, you know, if these cities continue to lose money, I think that you would definitely see some changes at the state legislature around around this issue.

Terry Casey Columbus is very reliant on income tax.

I think it's around 85 percent.

Maybe even more of its revenue comes from income taxes, which has been great.

But now, if more folks, even a small percentage of those folks work from home, it's going to have a big bite.

Is this a long term or a short term problem?

Yeah, I think it's both, and I disagree with Derrick, because the city Columbus, The Dispatch documented very well this week that Columbus is dipping into reserves and extra workers comp money that they got back and they're dangerously spending down the rainy day fund that they have.

So I think Columbus better tighten its belt and better be more careful because I think it's going to be a long ways because there's lots of people example might live in a township, a Delaware county that used to work inside at Polaris and say, Chase Bank or the mall.

Well, if they worked at the mall, be different, but at Chase Bank and now they're working from home.

So that's a lot less money for the city, Columbus.

And I think it's a long term problem.

But Columbus has spent a lot of money very fast, and I think they're creating a problem for themselves.

Laura Bischoff This all came about because of a change in state law that takes effect next year.

Might there be other changes down the road or they're going to see how this pans out?

You know, I don't think that the Legislature really has the appetite to allow for taxation in an area where you're not working.

I mean, I think that there's sort of a a feeling that if you're going to be working or living somewhere, OK, it's fair pay taxes.

But if you're not doing that, then you shouldn't be paying taxes.

The Ohio Mayors Alliance did a study in the fall and found that one in three office workers aren't planning to go back full time to their office.

So this is a problem across Ohio for cities that rely heavily on personal income taxes, and that is it's pretty much across the board.

Derrick Clay, is there a better way, too for the system to work?

You know, that remains to be seen, Mike.

The we've never faced this before where we had a pandemic where, you know, businesses were shut down, folks had to be sent home to to work.

And businesses basically had to adjust, you know, over the past year.

So I think the the business community is definitely going to be looking at ways in which we can remedy the situation.

I think the commercial real estate market and realtors are definitely going to be looking at ways in which they can then remedy the situation.

So.

This is this is an issue that the Ohio Chamber and local chambers of commerce around the around the state definitely need to be paying attention to and trying to find a remedy for.

Yeah, we'll have to see also if the work from home trend becomes permanent.

Very well might.

But you know, our memories are short and three years from now, we'll have to see if as many folks are working from home as as often as they are now, we'll have to see.

For the third time in three years, a central Ohio law enforcement officer faces a murder charge for an on duty shooting.

A grand jury this week indicted former Franklin County deputy Jason Meade for murder in the shooting death of 23 year old Casey Goodson Jr.. Meade shot Goodson several times in the back as Goodson entered his home.

Meade claims Goodson pointed a gun at him as the deputy was leaving his work on a federal fugitive task force.

There's no body cam footage of this encounter because Franklin County deputies don't wear them, Derrick Clay before the indictment of Andrew Mitchell, a Columbus police officer charged with murder.

We went two decades without a law enforcement officer in Franklin County being charged for an on duty shooting.

Now we've had three and three years.

What's changed?

Well, I think the appetite for officer involved shootings is very thin with the public.

And I think that that's what you're seeing now.

I think that, you know, you had the Goodson case and then a few weeks later, you had the the Andre Gray case where where he was shot coming out of his home with a with a cell phone in his hand.

So I think the appetite is very, very thin at this point with the public around officer involved shootings.

Terry Casey, what do you attribute?

The increase is that just because these cases were more clear than the cases for the past 20 years, or is it because of body cam footage?

Is no body cam footage in this case or in smartphone camera footage?

Well, it's kind of a little bit of all of the above, but to me, one of the most shocking things when I heard that the sheriff's department didn't even have body cams and hadn't even thought about doing it, it was really shocking to me because clearly Franklin County could have afforded the cameras.

And this is a case where you really need that because if I was sitting as a juror, I'd want to know what's true.

Did he really have a gun or not that he point the gun does?

Was the deputy justified?

Because clearly justice is a two way street, and just because you're a law enforcement officer doesn't mean you could do things improperly.

So hopefully the sheriff's department is going to get those cameras, and it's good that we've got that both to protect the officers when they do something right or if they do it wrong, they should be punished accordingly.

Laura Bischoff Statewide, there's more of a movement to get more body cameras on corrections officers, on state highway patrol troopers.

What's the situation statewide?

What is the Legislature doing the governor's office doing?

Well, I know that in the Department of Corrections, the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction has been doing a pilot study in a couple of different prisons.

I think that that's concluded and they're trying to figure out what system they want to buy, how they're going to fund it.

How would it work?

You know, these these body camera systems are only as good as the policy to govern, how they are used, how the data is maintained, how long it's stored, when the, you know, when the cameras are turned on or off in the Department of Corrections, the the the evidence for this was the Michael McDaniel death in February at a corrections reception center down Pickaway County.

There were no charges brought in his death or in the death of another guy who also died at that prison.

So I think that the the body cameras, the footage will, like Terry says, kind of hold people accountable for for, you know, professional behavior, but also for misconduct.

The attorney for the media and the Ohio Central Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, the police union suggests that politics may have played a role here.

They note that this indictment came just a couple of days before the first anniversary, just a couple of days before a planned protest at City Hall.

Derrick Clay Do you think politics played any role in the timing of this indictment?

I don't know if it played a role in the timing or not.

What I will say, though, is that officers really need to spend or the unions needs to spend more money or cultural competency training and de-escalation tactics for these officers because in a lot of situations, the the it's been cloudy as to whether the they are the suspect had a gun or not.

Right.

And I know that officers are in a very tricky situation when when they're out serving our public.

But at the same time, this young man was shot several times in the back as he was going into his grandmother's house.

So there needs to be cultural competency training for these officers, ongoing cultural competency training for these officers and de-escalation tactics.

Terry, could the fact that this was a special special prosecutors in charge of this case, the Andre Hill case was prosecuted by the State Attorney General's Office, does a little separation between the prosecutor and the police officers they work with every day visit.

Bring a fresh look at some of these cases, do you think?

Well, unfortunately, this case was botched literally from day one, because it was unclear who was going to do the case, and then they decided three or four days later they wanted the attorney general and the state crime people to do it.

But by then it was so late and the crime scene had not been protected and preserved.

So this is really a bad case because of how it was handled on day one, a day two between the county and the city.

So hopefully people have learned some things.

But again, I think the cameras and also the better quality because like in the prisons today, they've got better quality digital cameras which give better quality and resolution than the old days when it was just your old VCR kind of things that recorded things.

So I think all of this is good on both sides because accountability is key.

We still don't know exactly why this grand jury indicted this deputy.

The details are still kind of scarce in.

As far as we know, there was no video and very few witnesses to the actual shooting, but we shall see.

Ohio's primary election is about five months away and active campaigns are starting to emerge.

Jim Renacci this week announced his running mate and his primary challenge to Governor DeWine.

Renacci has chosen Christian film producer Joe Knopp as his candidate for lieutenant governor.

Meanwhile, a group who likes Governor DeWine has started a group called the Ohio Conservative Restoration Project, the so-called Dark Money Group.

So we don't know who's behind it, but it has some mean things to say about Jim Rennaci and they say the meanest being the Jim, and he did not support President Trump and his campaign in 2016.

Those are fighting words, Terry.

We'll get to that in a moment.

But have you heard of Mr. Knopp before this week?

Well, when you have to pick for lieutenant governor, somebody a nobody from nowhere that shows you're kind of desperate.

And obviously, Jim Renacci is burdened by the problem that he's a millionaire but doesn't want to spend his own money.

Maybe he knows something that the rest of us would like to know, but to be honest, enjoy the holidays and the new year because starting in January, we've already had TV ads, but they're going to get ramped up even more.

And of course, we have the case of Donald Trump objecting to a commercial use in him where it was attacking somebody else.

So the craziness come January, you might either want to get a better clicker for your TV or tune in to Netflix because it's going to be bad starting in January.

Derrick Clay How did Democrats break through to make sure voters don't forget about them?

They're lacking in candidates for the down ballot races?

Yeah.

lacking candidates right now.

But I think that that's intentional.

You know, I think that the Democrats are definitely taking a look at who's going to be the best candidates to run on the Democratic slate.

You know, in terms of the Republican slate, Terry, you mentioned that things are going to get crazy in January.

They've been crazy all along.

So January is just another month, right?

So in GOP land, when it comes to crazy, so.

So, you know, the Democrats are definitely going to have a full slate of candidates.

You know, we we're concentrating right now on Tim Ryan and the U.S. Senate race and some other candidates.

You know that we've got a couple of candidates running for governor in some of the down ballot races.

And of course, Tim Ryan does face a primary opponent in Morgan Harper in that race for the Democratic nomination for U.S. Senate.

Time now for our Off The Record parting shots.

And Terry Casey, we will start with you.

I'm predicting that a big issue in the coming months, certainly in the next three to four years, is about public employee pensions of state, local county employees because there were several things in the past week that came up.

They're going to have to be addressed because the rate of earnings by these pension funds, which have $250 billion, is not anywhere near what they need to sustain the benefits that are promised.

Derrick Clay.

Winter Fest is upon us.

If you are in town tomorrow, Saturday, from 11 to four down to Bicentennial Park, the Columbus Recreation and Parks Commission is hosting Winter Fest is going to be food drinks and it's going to be a great family event.

So come on down.

Hopefully, a nice weather.

And Laura Bischoff, your final thought.

So oral arguments are coming up this week in the redistricting maps for the legislative districts, and so it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

I think that is a split court and Maureen O'Connor is clearly in the driver's seat.

And you can watch those arguments on television.

This week, WOSU radio listeners heard live audio of the U.S. Supreme Court arguments in the Mississippi abortion case.

It was a compelling, informative illustration of smart people deliberating a very difficult issue.

The pandemic has made streaming audio the norm for U.S. Supreme Court hearings.

Let's hope video cameras will soon follow.

If the court is truly worried about how the American people feel about it, cameras in the courtroom in the hearing room, which surely help.

That is Columbus on The rRecord for this week.

Check us out online.

We're on Facebook and Twitter, and you can watch each episode on demand at our web site wosu.org/cotr For our crew and for our panel.

I'm Mike Thompson.

Have a good week.

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