(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to The Journal.

I'm Steve Kendall.

Its mission is to secure high quality educational opportunities for all Ohio School children without diminishing the opportunities for students who reside at what are called high capacity districts.

Its title is the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy of School Funding, we're joined by the coalition's Executive Director William Phillis, and a member of the Bowling Green City School's Board of Education, Ginny Stewart.

I wanna welcome you both to Journal today.

Thank you for taking the time to be with us.

- Well, thank you.

- And and Mr. [Ginny] Thank you very much for having me.

- Yeah.

And Mr. Phillis, I know that school funding in Ohio is not a recent thing, the issue of how it's done kind a take us back to a kind of a step us through the history of school funding in Ohio that led us to where we are today.

So, kind of give people a background who may not be informed about how long this has been going, this effort to provide, adequate and equitable school funding for children in the state of Ohio.

- Well, school funding begins with the constitution of the state of Ohio, and more specifically began in 1825 when the legislature put forward the concept and not only the concept, but the reality of the public common school when they set up township, sub township, school districts and the various counties throughout the state.

And then that was reinforced that concept was reinforced in the 1837 when the legislature itself appointed a superintendent of common schools throughout the state.

And then in, 1850 - 1851 Constitutional Convention the delegates weren't satisfied with what was happening with regard to public education at that time.

And so they set forth the standard for public schooling and that is Article 6 Section 2 of the Constitution, which says that the General Assembly shall secure by taxation or otherwise a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the state.

That was the state's job a common school system throughout the state.

The Constitutional Convention of 1874 - 75, although they didn't, the people of Ohio didn't adopt those constitutional provisions that they formulated during their convention.

They still, the delegates to that convention confirmed that we still stay with this idea of a thorough and efficient system of common schools required of the state.

Then in 1912, the constitutional convention reiterated and said that provision should be made by law for the organization, administration, and control of the public school system funded by public funds.

[Steve] Hmm.

Now, during that convention, some of the city school delegates to the convention, wanted to separate the city schools out from from the state system by the state, giving the cities a charter for education.

The delegates to that convention said, "No way, you know we're going to, we have a state system we're gonna stay with the state system."

And so the Constitution is all about a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the state.

No charters, no vouchers, a common school system.

[Steve] Mm hmm - Now, as you know the coalition challenged the constitutionality of the state school funding system back in 1991.

- [Steven] Right.

-_ Now that went through the courts.

And the courts said in 1997, the the Ohio Supreme Court said that our elementary and secondary schools are neither thorough nor efficient.

Now, what does that mean?

It means they're unconstitutional.

[Steve] Right.

We have secured a thorough and efficient system.

Now that went before the Supreme Court four times and four times over the Supreme Court said that the system was neither thorough nor efficient.

Now, in recent months in fact, in the last three years, but more specifically in the recent months, the legislature a couple legislators, one, the the current speaker of the house and a former legislator one being a Republican, one being a Democrat.

Bob Cupp the Speaker of the House, John Patterson the representative on the Democrat side.

They came up with what is called, you know what we generally call the Cupp-Patterson Funding Bill, The Fair Funding Bill.

That particular bill would answer the Supreme Court's decisions in all because they began with identifying the components of a quantity education costing out those components.

And then they devised a formula to distribute money to the district's so that they could, in fact, the district could meet that last standard.

Now, unfortunately, the legislature, the house passed that legislation, unfortunately, the Senate didn't pass the bill in its original form.

Only partially funded it.

And of course, that's the way the state has operated from the very beginning.

[Steve] Mhmm.

They funded education by a residual budgeting mechanism.

Well, now what that means is fund everything else and then whatever's - [Steven] Left over - [William] Give to the school system.

And during that period of time the legislature has drained off millions, tens of millions, billions for charter schools, vouchers and of course, The EdChoice Voucher System is what we're contesting currently in court today.

So maybe Ginny can wanna fill in some gaps there.

- Yeah.

Well, one question, because we're gonna we can come back and talk about this in the next segment (coughing) - [William Phillis] Excuse me.

The discussions when the legislature looks at these plans, like the one you mentioned, the Cupp-Patterson Plan.

What was their reason for saying for not following through and in passing that as it was written by Cupp and Patterson.

Is it simply we don't think we have the money?

Or is there some other reason why they didn't want to approve that plan?

Because Bob Cupp is obviously a person of high stature in the state of Ohio.

If someone was gonna write this plan he would be the one that you would think a lot of people could get behind or all of his colleagues in the legislature could.

and yet that wasn't even good enough apparently.

- You know, Bob Cupp was working on school funding back in the 1980s.

I was there with the assistant superintendent public instruction and he and I worked together on a similar kind of planning, but couldn't get the legislature to go along with it.

- [Steven] Yeah.

To be more specific, to answer your question specifically, regardless of what legislators might say, the problem is this they didn't have enough money they said to fund the Cupp-Patterson Bill completely.

However, they did have enough money to give a 25% increase in vouchers and the amount of a voucher.

They had enough money to expand the voucher program.

They had enough money to expand the charter school program.

But they didn't have enough money to fund the constitutionally required thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the state.

Now that, that's unacceptable, that is totally unacceptable.

- Hmm.

Yeah.

Well, when we come back in the next segment, Ms. Stewart, maybe you could talk to how this sort of moving platform that school funding is on, how that makes it difficult or it can make it difficult as a board member to continue to provide, you know, adequate schools and adequate education for people in your district.

So we come back, we'll be talking more with William Phillis, Executive Director of the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy of School Funding, and Ginny Stewart, Board of Education member Bowling Green City Schools back in just a moment on The Journal.

Thank you for staying with us here on The Journal.

We're talking about school funding in Ohio with a representative, the Executive Director of the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy of School Funding, William Phillis, and also with us as a school board member from the City of Bowling Green Schools, Ginny Stewart.

Ms. Stewart when we left that last segment we were talking about, Mr. Phillis talked about the latest challenge to constitutional school funding is with regard to vouchers.

You've been on the school board for a number of years but, maybe talk about when you became a school board member what you found out about how funding worked and how vouchers may or may not be impacting your local school district.

- Okay.

Well, I've been on the board for seven years and I think the most challenging part of being on the board when I first became a board member was... finance.

And I can honestly tell you I didn't understand the finance.

So fortunately we have a treasurer who's very good at at sharing information, and I was looking at our finance reports that are distributed to the board and to the community before every board meeting.

And there was a line item that I didn't understand but it seemed to be quite a bit of money.

When I inquired about it, it was the amount of money that goes out in a EdChoice vouchers, from our district to 4 or 5 or 6 different depending on when it is different parochial schools, charter schools, private schools.

And I was, I was, I have to say I was troubled.

- [Steven] Hmm So I also am the legislative liaison for our board.

And I was receiving emails from Vouchers Hurt Ohio, about what's happening throughout the state.

And what I realized, and what I found out was, the state will tell a district or any district that they send you the same amount of money for every student depending on whether their grades K through 8 or 9 through 12.

But the money that we actually get is not that.

And the money that goes out for a voucher for a student in K through 8 is $6,500 and for a 9 through 12 student is $7,500, but we're lucky if we see a third of each one of those amounts... - Ahhh, hmm.

- for each student.

And in looking at that in fiscal year 2021 and fiscal year 2020, just to keep it current, our districts lost almost half a million dollars to to these Ed voucher students and schools.

And it was really troubling for me, that I didn't know about it.

Our board members didn't know about it.

It's not because we didn't want to know.

It's just something that I don't think the general public up to this point is, is very aware of.

So I decided it was going to become something we made public.

And our board, I asked Bill and another member of the coalition to come and make a presentation to our board.

And instead of just doing it to our board, we did it to a large group of Northwest Ohio school districts.

And I think everyone was a little bit taken aback as to how much money their schools are losing.

And I think it's important, that people know that these are tax dollars, that we're all paying to go to public schools and they're leaving our public schools regardless of whether the student has even attended our public schools.

- [Steven] Hmm.

- And since we have made it more public at our school board meetings and also at a rather large meeting we had two or three weeks ago for all of Northwest Ohio, superintendent board presidents treasurers and union members.

I think that it's becoming a bigger issue that I believe school districts will start and boards will start paying attention to.

- Now.

- [Ginny] So that's how I came into this.

- Sure.

And the other side, and I'm arguing just, devil's advocate here, they would say, "Well school choice is a good thing and we should be allowed to choose where our children go to school."

Your argument isn't so much with that.

It's the fact that the way the model is set up more money goes out than would typically come in for a given student.

So you don't collect, if I understand correctly, you're not collecting the $6,500 Bowling Green City Schools see 65, but if that student chooses to go you have to send the $6,500, that you didn't fully receive to wherever that student wants to go to school.

Is that, is that correct or am I not understanding it either?

[Ginny] No, that's exactly right.

[Steve] Okay, all right.

Which was, yeah, so you - I have no issue with school choice but not on the backs of public school funding.

- Sure, yeah.

Which I guess is what Mr. Phillis was talking about too.

That money was found for that.

But at the same time, as you just described, it seems as if you are being, you are asked to pay out more than you've actually collected for that student.

So there's a almost like a subsidizing going on beyond even tax dollars being used for vouchers which I say people can have their discussion about school choice, but when more money is flowing out of a public school than you're collecting for that student, that does seem to be not exactly the way maybe the Ohio Constitution intended that even at its most extreme approach to this.

When it comes to vouchers Mr. Phillis, as you mentioned, I think when you were describing the funding that was never mentioned as part of the tools to provide the type of school system that Ohio legislators and constitutional amendment attendees intended.

So how do vouchers fit into this?

Are they... Obviously they've been found somewhat constitutional or am I totally missing how that's how that's become part of the school funding network now?

- Well, let me mention here at this point that in under House Bill 110, which is the current state budget bill, - [Steven] Okay.

We're in the second year of the state budget the two year budget at this point in time.

But that during that budget formulation, the state started taking the voucher money and the charter school money out of the general school district's basic aid allowance.

And so now all districts are sharing the cost of vouchers, whether they have voucher students or not.

- [Steven] Oh.

- Because they're taking it right out, right out - [Steven] Before.

- the traditional public school, basic aid money.

They're just siphoning off hundreds of millions of dollars out of that basic aid line item for vouchers and more so for charter schools.

And so all schools are, you know getting less money than what the state says is necessary to fund students because the money's being siphoned off.

Now, you know, personally I don't have any problem with private schools.

In fact, I was on a private school board one time, but the question is, is that a public enterprise that the public should pay for?

- [Steven] Hmm.

- Now, you know, for example should I be given a subsidy for a swimming pool in my backyard if I don't want to use the public pool?

- Ah.

- Or should I be given a road scholarship a highway scholarship to build my own transportation system?

Should I be getting a portion of the fire department's money so that I can hire my own private company?

- [Steven] Right.

- You know, taxes are for the public good.

- Right.

- Taxes are for the public, not for private individuals.

And so when we start, when the argument comes up well, you know, I pay taxes.

Well, you know, I pay taxes for swimming pools - [Steven] Mhmm - and, you know, - [Steven] Sure.

but I don't particularly use the public's pools.

I pay taxes for various recreation facilities and parks and now should I get a voucher if I don't use those?

Should I get a voucher for my country club dues?

Should I get a voucher for other private choices?

And obviously the answer is no.

- [Steven] Mhmm.

- So why should I get a voucher, public money, to go to a school because I don't want to use the public system.

- Yeah, That, that's a good point.

And I need to take a break here, we come back let's talk about more about that, the voucher issue because obviously that's the next step as your organization looks toward trying to deal with the adequacy and equity of funding in school.

So yeah, we'll be right back.

We'll talk about vouchers when we come back in even more detail.

Back in just a moment, here on The Journal.

You're with us here on The Journal on WGBU-PBS and our guests are Ginny Stewart a Board of Education Member of Bowling Green City Schools and William Phillis, who is the Executive Director of the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy of School Funding.

In the last segment, we were starting into vouchers and obviously that's the next issue.

I think that organizations are looking at they're looking at school funding.

When it comes to vouchers, if I take a voucher and go to a private school, a Catholic school a parochial school, a private school outside what we would consider the traditional public system, is that money accountable the same way it would be in a public school system or not?

- [William] Well, I think I'll start this discussion and then defer to Ginny if that's okay.

You know, the auditor of state audits all public schools.

- [Steven] Mhmm.

If a treasurer misappropriates five cents, the auditor will find it.

Now, there is no public audit of private schools even though private schools are getting some direct money from the state, under administrative cost reimbursement, they're getting auxiliary services money and they're getting transportation provided by the public system.

- Mhmm.

- Now, public schools are completely accountable, they're completely transparent, but that's not so in the private sector.

And I'm not asking for, you know, complete transparency and accountability of private operations as long as no public money involved.

And Ginny can look at that from board member's perspective.

- Yeah, I mean... - [Steven] Sure.

- Bill basically said what I was going to say about that is every year our treasurer goes through a very, very stringent audit.

and it's no joke that it's down to a penny.

- [Steven] Right.

- And that doesn't happen with private schools and charter schools that are receiving our voucher funds.

The other issue that I think needs to be understood is testing standards and accountability for the type of education these students are getting is very stringent in public schools.

We spend a great deal of time on state testing and there's an argument for "Are we doing too much of that?"

[Steven] Right But right now, that is what we have to do that does not happen in private schools and charter schools.

- [Steven] Mhmm, ahh.

And the rhetoric from charter schools is that our students are doing so much better because we teach a higher level of curriculum.

There's no way of accounting for that or improving it.

In fact, it's been proven that that isn't the case at all.

- Hmm okay.

- And it doesn't make sense that our tax dollars are just being given out blindly because it feels like it's being given out blindly and there is no accountability and no way to see how is that money being used year after year after year.

- Yeah.

And, and I know that obviously there is a lawsuit dealing with vouchers that your organization has brought forward.

What would you, Mr. Phillis, what would you like to see, we've got just a couple of minutes... What would you like to see that lawsuit accomplish?

What is the purpose of that?

When it comes to the voucher system that's currently in use in Ohio?

- We, we are challenging the constitutionality of the EDChoice voucher system completely.

- [Steven] Ahh.

- In other words, we're asking the court to rule that the state has no authority to issue EdChoice vouchers.

That's the bottom line.

The state is responsible for a thorough and efficient system of common schools, public schools, it is not responsible for funding parents or parochial schools or private schools that want to go off here and, you know, take public money.

- Hmm.

- The public money is for public schools.

Just like the public money is for the public highways.

Public money is for the public good.

The services that all citizens are entitled to embrace.

- Yeah.

Okay.

Well, we'll have to leave it there.

We're right at the end of this particular segment.

We look forward to talking with both of you more about school funding.

I mean, obviously we've been talking about it for hundreds of years, but most recently, obviously since 91, 97 and here we are in 2022 and school funding is still an issue in Ohio that remains unsolved in a way that that is comfortable to everybody.

So we appreciate your efforts on that and keeping everybody informed about how the system is working or not working and what needs to be improved by it.

So Ginny Stewart, Board of Education Bowling Green City Schools appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

And William Phillis, Executive Director of the Ohio Coalition for Equity and Adequacy of School Funding.

Thank you so much for being here.

We'll stay in touch and as things develop, we'll stay in contact and maybe talk with you more as things progress through the court system with regard to the voucher lawsuit.

So thank you again.

[William] Well, thank you so very much Steven.

[Ginny] Thank you for having us, Steve.

- [Steven] Sure.

- [Ginny] Really appreciate it.

- Yep.

Mhmm You can check us out anytime at WBGU.org of course you can watch us every Thursday night at 8:00 PM on WGBU-PBS.

We'll see you again next time.

Goodnight and good luck.

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