>>> TEACHERS WITH GUNS AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR REDISTRICTING REFORM.

♪♪ ♪♪ >>> JOINING US ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK, DARREL ROWLAND, SENIOR REPORTER FOR "THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH."

SAM GRESHAM OF COMMON CAUSE OHIO.

AND GENE KREBS, FORMER STATE LEGISLATOR.

A WEEK AND A DAY AFTER A GUNMAN SHOT AND KILLED 19 CHILDREN AND TWO TEACHERS AT A TEXAS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, THE OHIO LEGISLATURE MADE IT EASIER FOR OHIO TEACHERS TO CARRY GUNS IN THEIR CLASSROOMS.

LAWMAKERS GAVE FINAL APPROVAL TO A BILL THAT WOULD SET 24 HOURS OF TRAINING AS THE STANDARD FOR EMPLOYEES AND VOLUNTEERS TO CARRY GUNS IN SCHOOLS.

THAT'S DOWN FROM THE ROUGHLY 700 HOURS REQUIRED UNDER RULING FROM THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

SUPPORTERS OF THE MOVE SAY IT WILL PROTECT KIDS FROM ACTIVE SHOOTERS.

OPPONENTS SAY IT WILL NOT STOP SHOOTERS AND WILL MAKE CLASSROOMS MORE DANGEROUS.

MIKE DeWINE PROMISES TO SIGN THE BILL EVEN THOUGH HE HAS SAID HE WANTS TO DO MORE TO REGULAR REGULATE GUNS.

>> WHAT I HAVE AN OBLIGATION DOING IS GETTING DONE WHAT IS DOABLE, WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

IT DOESN'T DO A LOT OF GOOD.

AND PEOPLE CAN TEND SPEND A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT CAN'T GET DONE.

I CAN COUNT VOTES, I CAN SEE WHAT'S GOING ON.

MY JOB IS TO GET AS MUCH DONE AS I CAN THAT WILL ACTUALLY GET DONE.

>> GENE KREBS, SOUNDS LIKE THE GOVERNOR'S GIVEN UP.

>> UH, I CAN'T ARGUE THAT, AT LEAST ON THIS TOPIC, HE UNDERSTANDS WHAT HE'S DOING WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE.

IT'S ALL GOING TO BE SECOND AMENDMENT ON THIS.

AND ON THE TOPIC OF ALL THIS, THE THING THAT BROUGHT ME UP SHORT, I WAS, YOU KNOW, WILLING TO GIVE THIS SOME CONSIDERATION.

SO SOMEBODY POINTED OUT TO ME, SO YOU'RE A TEACHER, MAYBE A MALE TEACHER WITH A GUN IN THE HALLWAY, BECAUSE THERE'S A SHOOTER IN THE SCHOOL, AND THE POLICE COME IN, THEY'RE GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU ARE THE MASS SHOOTER AND YOU'RE DEAD BEFORE YOU CAN SAY, I TEACH SOCIAL STUDIES.

THIS IS WHY -- THIS IS NOT GOOD TO BE THAT WIDELY ADOPTED.

>> SAM?

ARMY TEACHERS, NOT A GOOD IDEA?

>> I THINK IT'S THE MOST ABSURD THING YOU CAN DO.

TEACHERS ARE TEACHERS BECAUSE THEY LIKE TEACHING.

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CARRY GUNS HAVE OTHER OCCUPATIONS THAT THEY CAN GO TO.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA.

AND I ALWAYS WONDERED TO MYSELF, SUPPOSE TWO TEACHERS GOT ANGRY AT EACH OTHER AND THEY HAVE THESE GUNS AT SCHOOL, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.

BUT I KNOW HOW I CAME UP WITH THE FORMULA OF HOW TO GET RID OF ALL THESE GUN BILLS.

I PROPOSE TO GIVE 175,000 AR-15s TO AFRICAN AMERICAN MALES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, 175.

AND I PROPOSE TO GIVE THEM 5,000 ROUNDS A YEAR.

NOW, I SUPPOSE ONCE YOU DO THAT, ALL THESE GUN RULES WILL GO AWAY.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> DARREL, IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE DAYTON SHOOTING NINE PEOPLE KILLED IN, WHAT, 34 SECONDS BY A MAN WITH AN AR-15.

STRONG OHIO WAS THE NAME OF GOVERNOR DeWINE'S MODEST RED FLAG LAW, UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, TOUGHENING THE PENALTIES FOR GUN CRIMES.

HE'S BASICALLY SAYING, SORRY, THE LAWMAKERS WON'T DO IT, I CAN'T PUSH IT IT.

>> I MEAN, ON ONE HAND, IT'S MIKE DeWINE BEING MIKE DeWINE, REAL POLITIC HERE.

CAN MOAN AND GROAN ABOUT ALL THESE OTHER PROPOSALS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK.

WHY SPEND ANY POLITICAL CAPITAL ON TRYING TO BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS IN OHIO OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

SO, FROM THAT STANDPOINT, OKAY, CRITICS WOULD SAY WHERE'S YOUR LEADERSHIP ON THIS, GOVERNOR.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE -- WE ALL REMEMBER THAT DO SOMETHING CRY WHEN THE GOVERNOR WAS IN DAYTON AFTER THAT OREGON DISTRICT MASS SHOOTING MAYBE THE DAY AFTER.

LITERALLY THOSE SAME TWO WORDS ARE BEING ECHOED IN TEXAS AND TULSA AND EVEN IN PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH THE OTHER NIGHT, DO SOMETHING.

AND I THINK EVERYONE PERHAPS ON ALL SIDES OF THIS ISSUE ARE FRUSTRATED THAT NOTHING IS BEING DONE.

>> GEE, YOU LOOK AT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH THIS WEEK.

HE FACES THE SAME HURDLE THAT GOVERNOR DeWINE DOES.

HE DOESN'T HAVE THE VOTES FOR SWEEPING GUN REFORM.

HE CAN OFFER INCENTIVES TO STATES TO CHANGE THEIR LAWS.

THAT'S THE BEST THEY'RE HOPING FOR IN CONGRESS.

BUT HE'S PUTTING HIS STAKE IN THE GROUND SAYING WE NEED AN ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN, AT LEAST MAKE IT FOR PEOPLE 21 AND OVER.

WHY CAN'T GOVERNOR DeWINE SAY THIS IS TERRIBLE, LET'S GIVE IT ANOTHER SHOT?

>> BECAUSE I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS THAT PEOPLE NO LONGER KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT LIKE THEMSELVES.

TWO THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW.

SO, IN MY RURAL PART OF OHIO, IT TAKES IN BEST-CASE SITUATIONS 25 MINUTES FOR THE COPS TO GET THERE WHEN YOU CALL 9-1-1.

I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF IT TOOK 45 MINUTES FOR THEM TO GET THERE.

SO BETWEEN 25 MINUTES AND 45 MINUTES FOR THEM TO GET THERE.

COLUMBUS TAKES THREE MINUTES USUALLY FOR THE COPS TO ARRIVE.

THERE'S A MUCH LOWER CULTURE OF ARMING YOURSELF.

>> HOW OFTEN ARE VICTIMS IN THE FARM COMMUNITY -- HOW MUCH ARE THOSE FOLKS THE VICTIM OF VIOLENT CRIME AS SOMEONE WHO IS IN AN INNER-CITY NEIGHBORHOOD?

>> AND I MEAN THIS IN ALL APOLOGIES TO THE MEDIA IS THAT YOU TURN ON YOUR LOCAL NEWS AND WHAT DO YOU SEE?

OH, THERE WAS A SHOOTING HERE, AND PEOPLE SEE THAT AND THEY THINK THINGS ARE MUCH MORE VIOLENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE.

IN REALITY, HOMICIDE RATES HAVE GONE DOWN.

BUT YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN THAT TO PEOPLE, AND THEY LOOK AT YOU, OH, NO.

>> THEY'VE GONE UP IN MANY CITIES INCLUDING COLUMBUS.

BUT THE TOTAL HOMICIDES.

CERTAINLY COLUMBUS DID A RECORD LAST YEAR AND THIS YEAR.

>> IT WILL CONTINUE AS LONG AS THESE WEAPONS ARE AVAILABLE.

PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SHOOT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE THESE WEAPONS.

AND IT'S ONE THING ABOUT CITY LIVING THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND.

THE DENSITY OF CITY LIVING, THE INABILITY TO HAVE CERTAIN TYPES OF AMENITIES LIKE AIR-CONDITIONING, I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT UNTIL I DISCOVERED AIR-CONDITIONING OUT OF MY POVERTY, IT CALMS YOU DOWN.

BUT IF YOU'RE SITTING ON THE PORCH AND YOU'RE HOT, IT DOESN'T TAKE MUCH.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS STARTLING TO ME, WHEN THEY LOOK BACK ON THIS PART OF HISTORY, THEY HAVE TO SAY A MINORITY HAS DETERMINED THIS GUN ISSUE, NOT A MAJORITY.

BECAUSE ALL OF THE POLLS SAY OTHERWISE.

AND MY FINAL POINT ON THAT, OUR SYSTEM IS REALLY, REALLY MESSED UP.

>> IS THERE A CHANCE, DARREL -- THERE WERE SOME ARTICLES THIS WEEK THAT SHOW 90% OF FOLKS SUPPORT, YOU KNOW, 21-YEAR-OLD AGE LIMIT FOR AR-15s AND UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS.

BUT WHEN THEY GO TO THE ACTUAL POLLS, IT'S STILL 60%.

IT'S NOT QUITE THE 90 WHEN PEOPLE HAD TO GO TO THE POLLS AND VOTE ON THESE THINGS.

>> IT'S ONE OF THE PERPLEXING THINGS ABOUT THIS ENTIRE ISSUE.

YOU LOOK AT THE NRA, YOU KNOW, ON ONE SIDE IT'S A GREAT ORGANIZATION, ON THE OTHER SIDE, IT'S THE BLACK HAT.

EITHER WAY THEY'VE BEEN POLITICALLY WEAKENED, A LOT OF INTERNAL FIGHTING AND ALL THAT.

BUT THEY STILL HAVE THAT CLOUT.

AND IT'S NOT EVEN NECESSARILY THE TRADITIONAL CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS I WRITE ABOUT A LOT AND SAM'S GROUP COMPLAINS ABOUT A LOT.

IT'S JUST THE ABILITY TO MOBILIZE.

AND IT'S INCREDIBLY SUCH AN EMOTIONAL TOPIC THAT IT OFTEN WINS THE DAY HAVING A NUMERICAL MAJORITY.

>> IT'S THE RANKING.

>> DURING MY FOUR TERMS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY I GOT AN "A" FROM THE NRA RANKING.

EXCEPT MY LAST TERM THEY GAVE ME AN A MINUS.

AND I ASKED WHY.

AND THEY SAID BECAUSE YOU ASK TOO MANY QUESTIONS.

I CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALWAYS BOTHERS ME ABOUT HOMICIDES AND WEAPONS, 54% OF THAT NUMBER IS SUICIDES.

>> THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM.

MY GUESS IS FAR MORE PEOPLE IN RURAL AMERICA ARE KILLED BY GUNS BY SUICIDE.

>> I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT COULD VERY WELL BE THE CASE.

BUT WHAT I GOT TO GO TO IS THAT -- FOR FOLKS, MY NEIGHBORS, WE ARE A GOOD 25 MINUTES AWAY FROM THE COUNTY SEAT.

AND IF WE CALLED 9-1-1, IT WILL TAKE THE SHERIFF, IF HE'S IN THE COUNTY SEAT, IT TAKES 25 MINUTES TO GET TO OUR FARM.

IF HE'S IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE COUNTY, HE TAKES 45 MINUTES TO GET TO OUR FARM.

>> LET'S GET TO OUR NEXT TOPIC.

WE ARE JUST PAST MEMORIAL DAY, SO THERE IS A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

BUT NEW POLLS INDICATE WHERE THE TWO TOP RACES STAND IN THE U.S. RACE SENATE.

IN THE RACE FOR U.S. SENATE A "USA TODAY"/SUFFICIENT FOLK UNIVERSITY POLL SHOWS J.D.

VANCE AND TIM RYAN BASICALLY TIED IN THE RACE FOR U.S. SENATE.

VANCE STANDS AT 42%, WHILE RYAN IS AT 39%.

THAT'S WITHIN THE POLL'S MARGIN OF ERROR.

DARREL ROWLAND, POST PRIMARY, ARE THOSE ADS REFLECTED IN THOSE POLL NUMBERS?

>> I THINK THEY MUST BE.

AND I THINK THERE'S TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT HERE.

IT'S LIKE WHY ARE YOU SPENDING MONEY NOW, ARE PEOPLE REALLY MAKING UP THEIR MINDS NOW?

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU'VE GOT TO GET ON THE RADAR.

J.D.

VANCE AND THAT ENTIRE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY JUST SPENT A BAZILLION DOLLARS ON ADS.

AND LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM, HIS FACE IS OUT THERE A LOT.

TIM RYAN SAYS, YEAH, AND YOU NEED TO BOOST THE POLL NUMBERS, YOU NEED TO SHOW PEOPLE GIVING MONEY THAT, HEY, I'M IN THE RACE AND IF YOU GIVE ME MORE MONEY, THAT COULD TURN THE TIDE.

AND CERTAINLY THE SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY POLL SHOWS THAT.

NOW, FROM A TECHNICAL STANDPOINT, YOU COULD PICK AT IT, AS YOU SAY, IT'S A LONG WAYS OUT.

THE MARGIN OF ERROR IS PLUS OR MINUS 4.5%.

SO THAT MEANS A 9% SLIDE, BECAUSE IT'S A RELATIVELY SMALL GROUP.

THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

BUT I THINK, GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT RACE IS, AS THEY CALL IT, A STATISTICAL TIE, OR CERTAINLY COMPETITIVE.

I DON'T THINK THE POLL'S OFF BY THAT MUCH.

>> GENE, THERE HAVE BEEN NO NEGATIVE ADS ATTACKING TIM RYAN YET, THAT I'VE SEEN ANYWAY.

SO THAT WILL DEFINITELY HURT HIS POLL NUMBERS DOWN THE ROAD.

>> YEAH.

BUT I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TOTAL NUMBER -- WELL, THIS IS A WEIRD RACE BECAUSE J.D.

VANCE ONLY GOT ONE-THIRD OF THE REPUBLICANS TO VOTE FOR HIM.

AND THAT MEANS THAT ALL TIM RYAN HAS TO DO IS CONVINCE 10%, 15, 20% OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM YOU MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE BY NOT VOTING FOR HIM THE FIRST TIME.

NOW, DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE AND VOTE FOR HIM NOW.

I GOT TO TELL YOU, WHEN I SAW HIS ADS SHOW UP AT 6:59 IN THE MORNING AND 6:28 IN THE EVENING, I WENT, THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY, BUT NOW I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THEM GOING THIS MAY ACTUALLY WORK ON HIS PART.

AND I'VE NOT SEEN ANYTHING FROM J.D.

VANCE OR ANY OF HIS DARK MONEY GROUPS YET.

>> AS DARREL MENTIONED, IT CERTAINLY COULD BRING IN SOME FUNDRAISERS.

THIS RACE COULD BE COMPETITIVE THROUGH JULY 4th, PERHAPS AUGUST.

>> WHERE'S THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

WHERE HAVE WE HEARD ONE OF THEM COMMERCIALS SOMETHING THAT'S IMPORTANT TO US?

THE SCUTTLEBUTT I GET FROM PEOPLE WHO TALK TO ME IS IS HE A DEMOCRAT?

>> HE'S RUNNING AS A TRUMP DEMOCRAT.

THAT WON'T WORK IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

>> NO, THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

SO I AM NOT SURE THAT EVERYTHING IN HEAVEN IS GOING TO BE OKAY.

AND EVENTUALLY SOMEBODY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS GOING TO CONFRONT HIM ON THIS ISSUE.

WHERE IS OUR STUFF?

YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR ISSUES.

AND THIS HAS BEEN IN THE BACK OF BLACK PEOPLE'S MINDS FOR A LONG TIME THAT THESE DEMOCRATS ARE WAITING FOR THE TRUMP PEOPLE TO COME BACK SO OUR ISSUES ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT.

>> ALL RIGHT, IN THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR, THE POLL SHOWS DEMOCRAT NAN WHALEY HAS SOME WORK TO DO.

THE DEMOCRAT TRAILS GOVERNOR DeWINE 45% TO 30%.

THERE IS AN INDEPENDENT IN THIS RACE, NIEL PETERSEN.

HE IS AT 10%.

DARREL, AN INCUMBENT FACING RE-ELECTION.

HOW ODD IS THAT GAP, 15 POINTS?

>> UM, YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS ON THE YEAR IN OHIO.

CERTAINLY THE DEMOCRATS HAVE PUT UP SOME WEAK CANDIDATES OVER THE YEARS.

IT'S A VERY HEALTHY MARGIN.

AGAIN, IF YOU TAKE THAT MARGIN OF ERROR, MAX IT OUT TO THE DEMOCRATS' FULL ADVANTAGE, IT COULD BE JUST SIX.

BUT THE GOVERNOR HAS CLEARLY -- >> I THINK THAT UNDERSCORES CERTAINLY WHAT MOST OF US HAVE PROBABLY FELT ALL ALONG THAT THIS RACE HAS BEEN SINCE THE GET-GO.

YOU LOOK AT THE CROSS TABS OF THE POLLS.

EVERYONE KNOWS MIKE DeWINE.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE BUT MAINLY FOR BETTER.

A LOT OF THIS RACE IS GOING TO BE ABOUT DEFINING NAN WHALEY.

AND IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HER SIDE TO DEFINE AS SHE WANTS.

BUT, GUESS WHAT, THE OTHER SIDE, HATE TO KEEP COMING BACK TO THAT MONEY, BUT I'VE COVERED ENOUGH CAMPAIGNS.

IT MAKES SO MUCH DIFFERENCE IF THEY GET TO THAT AIR POINT.

>> IT WAS EARLIER IN THE CYCLE THAN, SAY, MAY BEFORE THE ELECTION, BUT KASICH MADE IT UP.

>> TO GET DEMOCRATS OUT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXCITING CANDIDATE, SOMEBODY WHO'S DYNAMIC, RAISES A LITTLE FERVOR, LOOKS GOOD, HAS A FAMILY HISTORY.

THE CANDIDATES THAT THEY COME UP WITH ARE NOT THOSE TYPES, OR THEY HAVE TO HAVE SCANDALS TO GET THEM IN.

NOW, THERE'S A BENCH IN COLUMBUS, GOOD POTENTIAL STATEWIDE CANDIDATES.

AND I THINK THEY NEED TO BEGIN TO DEVELOP THOSE PEOPLE AND THEN FIND WAYS TO GET THEIR NAME RECOGNITION UP AND RUN.

BECAUSE THE CANDIDATES THAT -- AS MY GRANDDAUGHTER SAID, THEY LOOK SAD, GRANDPA.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> IF THERE IS A MINORITY WOMAN ON THE TICKET, WOULD THAT CUT IT?

>> JOBS GOT TO BE CUT BY WOOD.

>> GETTING TO THIS GUN ISSUE, NAN WHALEY TRAILING, SHE'S GOT AN UPHILL CLIMB.

WHAT IF SHE WERE TO DOUBLE DOWN LIKE BETO O'ROURKE HAS IN TEXAS ON THE GUN ISSUE, AND THEY BOTH RUN THAT STAGE IN DAYTON.

SHE WAS STANDING WITH MIKE DeWINE WHEN HE INTRODUCED HIS STRONG OHIO PLAN.

SHE COULD SAY HE'S DONE VERY LITTLE ON THIS PLAN, I'M STILL FIGHTING FOR IT.

WOULD THAT BE AN ISSUE THAT WOULD HELP HER?

>> YEAH, BECAUSE WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM SOME OF MY MORE MODERATE REPUBLICAN FRIENDS IS THAT THEY'VE BEEN OUTRAGED OVER DeWINE, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR HIM BECAUSE HE SIGNED THE BILL ALLOWING CONCEAL CARRY WITHOUT TRAINING.

BUT GOING BACK TO THE POLLING, THE THING THAT NOBODY'S TALKING ABOUT IS PETERSEN.

I WAS EXPECTING PETERSEN TO COME IN AT 2 TO 4%.

FOR HIM TO COME IN AT 10%, HE'S TAKING THE PAGE OUT OF THE MANDEL PLAYBOOK WHEN HE RAN FOR U.S. SENATE.

HE'S AN EVANGELICAL PENTECOSTAL PREACHER OUT TO ME.

HE'S GOING TO ALL THOSE CHURCHES AND CAMPAIGNING THERE.

IF HE'S ALREADY AT 10%, IF I WAS MIKE DeWINE'S TEAM, I WOULD BE SWEATING BLOOD RIGHT NOW.

I SAID LAST TIME I WAS ON YOUR SHOW THAT NAN WHALEY WAS GOING TO WIN AFTER SEEING THE PETERSEN NUMBER OUT OF THE GATE AT 10%, HE CAN DOUBLE THAT IF ALL THAT'S GOING TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF MIKE DeWINE.

>> ARE WE PRONOUNCING HIS NAME RIGHT, IS IT NEAL OR NILE?

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS NEAL.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YOU GET TO 12% IF YOU PRONOUNCE THE NAME CORRECTLY.

I WASN'T QUITE SURE WHEN I WAS WRITING THE SCRIPT.

ANYWAY, WE SPELLED IT RIGHT, I KNOW THAT.

OHIO VOTERS WILL HAVE TWO CHANCES TO CHANGE THE STATE'S CONSTITUTION IN NOVEMBER.

LAWMAKERS HAVE PUT TWO PROPOSED AMENDMENTS ON THE BALLOT.

ONE WOULD ALLOW JUDGES TO CONSIDER PUBLIC SAFETY WHEN SETTING BAIL.

A RECENT SUPREME COURT RULING SAID JUDGES CANNOT CONSIDER SAFETY.

THE OTHER AMENDMENT WOULD PROHIBIT NONCITIZENS FROM VOTING IN OHIO ELECTIONS.

IT'S ALREADY ILLEGAL, BUT SUPPORTERS SAY THIS AMENDMENT WILL MAKE THE LAW EVEN MORE CLEAR, CRITICS SAY THE MEASURE AIMS TO FUEL ANTI-IMMIGRANT FEELINGS AMONG VOTERS.

SAME QUESTION, FIRST TO THE BILL AMENDMENT QUESTION, IF SOMEONE IS ACCUSED OF ASSAULTING HIS WIFE, SHOULDN'T THE JUDGE BE ABLE TO SAY, BECAUSE OF HER SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF OTHERS, I'M GOING TO SET BAIL AND KEEP YOU IN JAIL?

>> THERE'S A LOGIC TO THAT.

BUT BOTH PIECES OF LEGISLATION, IN MY OPINION, IS HYPOCRISY AND POPPYCOCK.

THE IMMIGRANT PIECE IS JUST A THROWAWAY PIECE.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY THEY'RE DOING IT.

I THINK THE DOMESTIC POINT THAT YOU RAISED IS PROBABLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO GET A SENSE OF COMMUNITY FEELING THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE DOING SOMETHING.

I AGREE WITH THAT PORTION.

BUT THE REST OF IT, AND I THINK IT'S HYPOCRISY ON THEIR PART TO SAY THAT THEY EVEN CARE ABOUT THAT.

WHEREAS OTHER PIECES OF LEGISLATION THAT ILLUSTRATE THAT SAME CARING?

>> ON THE NONCITIZEN VOTING, ROSE CITED THE CONSTITUTION SAYING YOU CAN'T DO, BUT NOW HE SAYS WE NEED THIS AMENDMENT BECAUSE THE YELLOW SPRINGS NEVER APPEALED IT.

IS THERE ANY THOUGHT THAT WE DO NEED THIS?

>> WELL, I SUPPOSE -- SORRY, AN OLD SCHOOL REFERENCE FOR YOUR YOUNG FOLKS.

>> GENE WEARS THE SUSPENDERS.

>> EXTRA BONUS.

>> ANOTHER SECRETARY OF STATE THEY'RE SAYING HE COULD RULE THE WAY AND IT SHOULDN'T RELY ON THE WHIMS OF WHOEVER OCCUPIES THAT PARTICULAR OFFICE.

IT SHOULD BE NAILED DOWN IN OHIO LAW.

BUT THE SERVICE COMMISSION WHICH IS BIPARTISAN, KIND OF AGREES BASICALLY LAYMAN'S TERMS IF YOU WANT TO BE SURE, YEAH, GO AHEAD AND DO THAT.

THERE'S NO ONE WHO ASSERTS ABSOLUTELY THAT IT WOULD BE LEGAL NOW, HOWEVER.

THIS IS JUST -- THERE'S A POSSIBLE LOOPHOLE THERE.

>> WHAT'S THE MOTIVATION HERE?

IS IT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUR SUSPENDERS OR IS IT TO FUEL THIS ANTI-IMMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION IS A PROBLEM?

>> HISTORY SELDOM REPEATS, BUT IT DOES OFTEN RHYME.

2004, THE REPUBLICANS PUT UP ON THE BALLOT THE MARRIAGE ACT.

MAIN PURPOSE WAS TO DRIVE THEIR VOTERS TO THE POLLS.

IT DID.

AND IT ELECTED GEORGE WALKER BUSH TO HIS SECOND TERM.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE AGAIN?

>> YOU WOULD BE A POLITICAL NAIVE TO THINK OTHERWISE.

LET'S GET TO OUR LAST TOPIC.

THE LONG AND EXHAUSTING FIGHT OVER OHIO'S LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS HAS ENDED TEMPORARILY.

AS EXPECTED, A FEDERAL COURT HAS ORDERED THE STATE TO USE MAP NUMBER THREE OF STATE AND HOUSE DISTRICTS.

IT AND FOUR OTHERS WERE RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

SO VOTERS NOW KNOW WHO THEIR CANDIDATES ARE FOR THE AUGUST PRIMARY.

THAT LEAVES FAIR DISTRICT ACTIVISTS WITH THE QUESTION, OKAY, NOW WHAT?

SAM GRESHAM, COMMON CAUSE OHIO, YOU ARE ONE OF THESE REDISTRICTING REFORM ADVOCATES.

>> THEY WERE WHO WE EXPECTED THEM TO BE.

YOU'VE HEARD THAT PHRASE BEFORE.

WE EXPECTED THEM TO DISRESPECT THE PEOPLE OF OHIO WHO GAVE 70 PLUS.

WE EXPECTED FOR THEM TO PLAY ALL THESE GAMES WITH THE PROCESS.

AND WE EXPECTED THAT IF THE OHIO SUPREME COURT COULD NOT GET THEM TO WORK IT OUT, THAT THEY WOULD GO TO THE FEDERAL COURT AND THEY WOULD GET ONE OF JUDGES TO GO FOR IT.

BUT WHAT THEY DID NOT ANTICIPATE, ONE, WE HAVE TO START THE PROCESS OVER NEXT YEAR, IT'S ONLY ONE YEAR LEFT.

>> ONE CYCLE.

>> AND THEY ALSO HAVE GIVEN US ENOUGH CANNON FODDER TO PUT A MEDIA CAMPAIGN TOGETHER TO SAY WHY THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO DO THIS AND PUT AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION IN PLACE.

>> SO DO YOU HAVE TO ACT ON THAT NOW WHILE THIS IS TOP OF MIND AND WHILE PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION?

>> NO, WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

WE NEED TO PUT OURSELVES TOGETHER FOR '24.

AND IN '24, WE'VE GEMMED UP ENOUGH AND THEY'VE GIVEN US ENOUGH FREE PUBLICITY AND WE'VE GOT ENOUGH NEWS FOOTAGE THAT WE CAN PUT TOGETHER, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BEAT THEM ON THIS.

I'M GOING TO END THIS BY SAYING THIS IS EVERYTHING I ANTICIPATED THAT THEY WOULD DO.

>> GENE, IS IT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION THE ANSWER?

DO YOU SEE THAT COMING NEXT?

>> OH, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS LOOK TO SEE WHAT MICHIGAN DID.

BUT THERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION, THOUGH, THAT HAS BEEN PUZZLING ME.

I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHY DOES KEITH SABER VOTE WITH THE DEMOCRATS ON THESE MAPS?

AND KEITH IS A VERY SHREWD POLITICIAN.

AND HE SEES SOMETHING I DON'T THINK THAT ROSE AND DeWINE HAVE SEEN ON THIS YET.

AND I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON THERE.

>> I THINK THE STATED REASON HAS BEEN THAT HE'S AGAINST THE MAPS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T -- THEY WENT TOO FAR TOWARD THE DEMOCRATS.

NOW, PEOPLE MAY FORGET THAT REASON AND JUST REMEMBER THE VOTES.

>> GERRYMANDERED.

THE DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS WOULD GERRYMANDER.

>> RIGHT.

AND THERE'S A POINT TO THAT.

YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH IF YOU'RE GOING TO TRY TO GO FOR THE OVERALL BALANCE AS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT MANDATED, AS THE SUPREME COURT INTERPRETED IT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT TO COME OUT WITH THAT OVERALL PROPORTION.

BUT THERE ARE SO MANY QUESTIONS THAT ARE UP IN THE AIR.

IS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT WAS PASSED IN OHIO IN 2015, I THINK FOR THE LEGISLATIVE, IS THAT EVEN IN EFFECT ANYMORE?

DOES THAT EVEN -- IS THAT RELEVANT OR ARE WE JUST IN SORT OF NO-MAN'S LAND?

THAT WAS DESIGNED TO HAPPEN AFTER THE CENSUS.

WHERE WE'VE GOT ONE ELECTION IN, AS SAM POINTS OUT, AFTER THE CENSUS HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF NOW.

NOW WE GOT 2024, MAPS FOR THAT YEAR.

WHO DECIDES, HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> I THINK THE ANSWER IS NO.

IT'S NO MAN'S LAND.

WE DO UNTIL WE FIGURE IT OUT.

I AGAIN POINT OUT THE LAWLESSNESS, THE TOTAL DISREGARD FOR THE CONSTITUTION.

THERE'S NOTHING SACRED ABOUT IT.

I GREW UP IN A TIME WHERE THE CONSTITUTION WAS SACRED.

YOU DON'T DO THAT.

AND IT ALSO SHOWS ONE THING.

THE PURE POLITICAL RUTHLESS GRABS THAT REPUBLICANS USE.

>> AN INDEPENDENT CHRISTIAN, YOU MENTIONED MICHIGAN, IT'S IN PLACE FOR THIS YEAR.

THE OUTSIDERS HAVE SAID IT HAS CREATED MORE FAIR MAPS FOR THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, BUT IT'S STILL BEING CHALLENGED.

THERE'S ONE MORE REFORM TOO -- FULL DISCLOSURE, AS ALWAYS, I'M ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN THE EFFORT PRO BONO TO BRING RANK VOTING TO OHIO.

I GOT TO TELL YOU, THAT COMBINED WITH FAIR MAPS WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN OHIO FROM GETTING PEOPLE OF QUALITY ELECTED.

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

PREDICTIONS FOR THE WEEK AHEAD.

GENE KREBS, YOU'RE FIRST.

>> JOYCE BARRETT, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR IS RETIRING THIS COMING TUESDAY.

HER ORGANIZATION HAS DONE MORE TO REVITALIZE DOWNTOWNS, BOTH SMALL AND LARGE CITIES, THAN MOST PEOPLE KNOW.

16 YEARS AGO JOYCE AND I DRAFTED AND PASSED THE STATE HISTORIC TAX CREDIT FOR REHABILITATION.

THAT HAS DONE QUITE A LOT, AND I WISH JOYCE WELL IN RETIREMENT.

SHE CAN RETIRE KNOWING SHE'S CHANGED THE FACE OF OHIO AND MADE IT MORE ATTRACTIVE TO ATTRACT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO COME BACK HOME.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SAM GRESHAM?

>> I'M TRYING TO CONVINCE MY COLLEAGUES TO PUT A BALLOT ON THE INITIATIVE FOR INDEPENDENT COMMISSION USING SOME MODEL.

AND I WANT TO THANK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR GIVING US AMPLE CAMPAIGN INFORMATION.

>> ALL RIGHT, AND DARREL?

>> IN THE COMING WEEK WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE JANUARY 6th U.S. HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE IN PRIME TIME.

THE LONG-AWAITED PRESENTATION ON WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT SPARKED THAT RIOT, THE INSURRECTION.

AND THE REPUBLICANS LED BY, OF COURSE, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, ARE GOING TO DO SOME COUNTERPROGRAMMING.

I THINK THE INTERESTING THING ESPECIALLY FOR OHIOANS IS THAT JIM JORDAN IS LIKELY GOING TO BE FEATURED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE -- INTERESTING FOR THOSE OF US IN OHIO.

>> IT'LL BEGIN THURSDAY NIGHT IN WASHINGTON.

PRIME TIME 8:00 START TIME.

THE OHIO CONTROL COMMISSION HAS SET THE DATE FOR LEGAL GAMBLING IN OHIO.

IT'S JANUARY 1st.

JUST IN TIME FOR THE NFL PLAYOFF AND THE SUPER BOWL.

BUT TOO LATE TO BET ON THE BUCKEYES LEGALLY, ANYWAY, THIS YEAR.

UNLESS THE BUCKS PLAY IN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME ON JANUARY 9th.

SO ANOTHER REASON TO HOPE THE BUCKEYES MAKE IT TO THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ONLINE.

WE ARE ON FACEBOOK, AND IF YOU MISSED A SHOW OR JUST WANT TO RE-LIVE THE EXPERIENCE, YOU CAN WATCH US ON DEMAND AT OUR WEBSITE WOSU.ORG OR ON THE PBS APP FOR OUR CREW AND FOR OUR PANEL I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

♪♪ ♪♪