>>> THE REDISTRICTING DRAMA MOVES TO ACT THREE.

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JOINING US ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK, STATE HOUSE REPORTER FOR THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH.

DERRICK CLAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND GENE CRIPS, FORMER STATE LEGISLATURE.

A FEW DAYS LATE AND A FEW DAYS BEFORE THEY WERE ORDERED TO APPEAR AT AN OHIO SUPREME COURT CONTEMPT HEARING, MEMBERS OF THE OHIO REDISTRICTING COMMISSION THURSDAY APPROVED A THIRD VISION OF THE STATE LEGISLATIVE MAP WITH 54 REPUBLICAN SEATS AND 45 DEMOCRATIC SEATS IN THE OHIO HOUSE AT 18 REPUBLICAN TO 15 DEMOCRATIC SEATS IN THE OHIO SENATE.

THAT IS CLOSE TO THE VOTING PREFERENCES OF OHIOENS.

THEY SAY IT CREATES MORE THAN A DOZEN TOSS-UP DISTRICTS FOR DEMOCRATS VERSES ZERO FOR REPUBLICANS.

BOTH DEMOCRATS AND ONE REPUBLICAN VOTED AGAINST THE MAPS.

NOW WE WAIT FOR THE OHIO SUPREME COURT TO SAY WHETHER THESE MAPS MEET ITS VIEW OF THE CONSTITUTION.

THIRD TIME'S A CHARM PERHAPS.

WHAT IS THE THINKING AT THE STATE HOUSE?

IS THIS CLOSER TO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT WAS LOOKING FOR?

>> I THINK THAT DEPENDS WHO YOU ASK.

I MEAN WHEN THE DEMOCRATS COULD SAY NO IT'S NOT AND THEY ANTICIPATE THIS MAP WILL BE STRUCK DOWN.

BUT EVEN SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN ARES, BROKE RANK AND VOTED AGAINST THIS MAP SAYING HE THINKS IT'S WORSE THAN THE ONES THEY HAD BEFORE.

AND CLEARLY IT'S REALLY HARD TO PREDICT WHERE THE COURT'S GOING TO COME DOWN ON THIS.

I THINK BIGGEST QUESTION I HAVE IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT TUESDAY'S CONTEMPT HEARING?

>> THAT IS STILL GOING TO HAPPEN EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE SUBMITTED A THIRD MAP FOR THEIR CONSIDERATION.

>> AS FAR AS I KNOW, IT SEEMS TO BE STILL A GO AND PERHAPS BECAUSE REGARDLESS OF SUBMITTING TO MAP, THEY STILL VIOLATED THE COURT ORDER BY SUBMITING IT LATE.

>> WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

FIRST TO THE ARGUMENT THAT THE TOSS-UP DISTRICTS, THE ONES THAT ARE RELATIVELY CLOSE, THEORETICAL MARGIN OF VICTORY ARE LABELLED DEMOCRATIC BUT THE REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS ARE SOLIDLY REPUBLICAN.

IS THAT A TOKEN EFFORT OR THE WAY THE STATE IS BUILT RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THIS GOES TO THE CONFUSION WE'RE ALL SEEING ON THIS TOPIC.

AND I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE NOBODY, WHEN THEY WERE DRAFTING THE AMENDMENT LANGUAGE HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT MANS LOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEED AND DIDN'T DO A RANKING AS TO WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS AND RANK IT ON DOWN.

FOR A WHILE I'VE BEEN WONDER FIGURE THE SUPREME COURT WOULD APPOINT A SPECIAL COUNSEL.

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IS APPOINT AN ARBITRATOR.

THERE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO COME IN AND EFFECTIVELY -- I'M A STRICT CONSTRUCTIONEST.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOME CASE LAW BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION IS WAY TOO VAGUE ON WHICH ONES DO YOU MAKE THE MOST IMPORTANT.

AND THE LAST TIME I WAS ON YOUR SHOW, I SAID SECTION 19 OF THE MAPS THE REPUBLICAN ARES SUBMITTED, I DON'T THINK, IS GOING TO PASS MUSTER.

I HOPE DEMOCRAT MAPS AND I THINK YOU'RE ALSO GUILTY OF VIOLATING SECTION 19.

THE QUESTION IS HOW IMPORTANT IS CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THIS?

WHICH ONE SHOULD THEY WAIT AND WHICH SHOULDN'T THEY?

>> IS THAT THE COMPACTNESS SECTION OF THE MAP?

>> NOT CUTTING UP COUNTIES, COMMUNITIES, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT HE WAS PROTESTING TO.

AND I THINK HE'S BEEN TALKING TO THE SAME PEOPLE I'VE BEEN TALKING TO IN RURAL OHIO WHO ARE GOING WHY CAN'T YOU REPUBLICANS JUST GET SOMETHING DONE?

AND WHY ARE YOU HIDING?

FACE THOSE DEMOCRATS IN AN OPEN SEAT THING AND TAKE THEM ON.

THEY THINK WE GOT THE BETTER VALUES.

WE'LL WIN.

>> TO THAT POINT, ARE DEMOCRATS ASKING TOO MUCH THAT THEY SHOULD GET DISTRICTS THAT, IN THEORY, ARE SAFE?

SHOULD THAT BE A GUARANTEED PART OF THIS PROCESS?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING TOSS-UP DISTRICTS THEY HAVE TO FIGHT TO WIN?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD NOT WANT AN UNFAVORABLE ADVANTAGE BECAUSE THE STATE OF OHIO VOTERS SAID THEY WANTED A FAIR PROCESS AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED THROUGHOUT THIS WHOLE PROCESS.

QUITE HONESTLY, YOU KNOW, THIS WHOLE THING IS A MESS AND COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

THE REPUBLICANS HAD AMPLE TIME TO DO HEARINGS AROUND THE STATE.

THEY'VE GIVEN MAPS TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE 24 HOURS, SOMETIMES LESS THAN THAT TIME, NOTICE FOR THEM TO RESPOND TO.

SO, ALL OF THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

BUT WE'RE AT THIS JUNCTURE WHERE THE SUPREME COURT IS ASKED THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION TO COME IN AND EXPLAIN THEMSELVES.

THIS ALL COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

>> TO THAT POINT THEY'VE ASKED FOR THE ACTUAL MEMBERS TO BE THERE.

THAT MEANS GOVERNOR, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, SENATE PRESIDENT ALL HAVE TO BE THERE TO SPEAK WITH THEM.

BUT THEY'VE GOT TO SIT IN FRONT OF THE JUDGES AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY MISSED THE DEADLINE.

DO YOU THINK THAT CAUSED THE CHANGE OF HEART ON THE PART OF THE LEADERS TO SAY LET'S TRY AGAIN AND SEE IF WE CAN COME UP WITH A MAP THE THIRD TIME?

>> I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE BEING CALLED TO THE PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE AND I DON'T THINK THEY WANTED TO GO EMPTY HANDED.

IF THEY GO IN CONTRITE, IT'S CRAZY THIS IS EVEN SOMETHING ABOUT TO COME OUT OF MY MOUTH.

BUT CONTEMPT OF COURT CAN INCLUDE BEING JAILED.

WHILE I THINK THAT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY, THEY CAN ALSO BE FINED, FOUFR THEM, BELIEVE ARE ARE ATTORNEYS.

THEY COULD BE CENSURED FOR DEFYING A COURT ORDER.

I THINK GOING IN WITH A MAP IN HAND AND BEING CONTRITE ABOUT THE ISSUE IS PROBABLY PUTTING THEIR BEST FOOT FORWARD.

>> DO YOU SEE ONE BRANCH OF A GOVERNMENT HOLDING ANOTHER BRANCH IN CONTEMPT?

OR IN THIS CASE THE LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE?

>> YES, AND HERE'S THE REASON WHY.

PREVIOUS GUESTS ON YOUR SHOW HAVE BEEN VERY ADAMANT THIS IS A POLITICAL PROCESS.

UP UNTIL A POINT AND THEN IT BECOMES A PROCESS OF THE LAW.

AND SO, IT'S HIT THAT POINT AND THE LAW NEEDS TO SPEAK.

THE OTHER THING WHEN PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT HOW MAUREEN O'CONNOR IS GOING TO APPROACH THIS, I'VE KNOWN HER A QUART OF A CENTURY NOW, SHE'S A FORMER SUMMIT COUNTY PROSECUTOR.

AND THEY SEE THINGS IN A VERY HERESY, THE FORCES OF RIGHT AND DARKNESS.

SHE KNOWS SHE'S ON THE FORCES OF RIGHT.

AND FOR EVEN SOME REPUBLICAN ASSOCIATED GROUPS TO THREATEN HER WITH IMPEACHMENT IS JUST GOING TO TICK HER OFF AND SHE'S JUST GOING TO PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND.

>> THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP IS STILL OUT THERE.

MARCH 4th.

THE DEADLINE FOR CANDIDATES TO FILE.

WILL WE SEE THAT MAP IN THE NEXT WEEK, DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION IS GOING TO MAKE EVERY ATTEMPT TO PUT A MAP OUT THERE.

BUT NOTHING SURPRISES ME AT THIS POINT.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS PROCESS HAS BEEN JADED.

I MEAN, THE VOTERS ASK FOR A FAIR PROCESS.

AGAIN, AND WE'RE AT A POINT NOW WHERE MAPS HAVE BEEN PRESENTED IN THE PAST THAT ARE WORSE THAN THE CURRENT LINES THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

SO, YES, THE COMMISSION WILL TRY TO MEET THAT DEADLINE BUT DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH ON THAT.

>> THE FIGHT OVER POLITICAL CARTOGRAPHY HAS CANDIDATES AND POTENTIAL CANDIDATES FIGURING OUT WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO RUN AND WHO THEIR VOTERS ARE GOING TO BE.

THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR DISTRICTS YET, WHEN OHIO WILL HOLD ITS PRIMARY.

IT'S HARD TO RUN A RACE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE COURSE OR WHERE THE FINISH LINE IS.

RIGHT, JEAN KREBS?

YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS IN YOUR FIRST RUN OF OFFICE?

>> MY VERY FIRST PRIMARY RACE IN 1992 WAS ALSO A YEAR OF NEW DISTRICTS.

I WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A MAY PRIMARY AND IT GOT MOVED TO JUNE AND THEN BACK TO MAY AND THEN TO JUNE.

I KNOW A LOT OF FOLKS ARE GOING HOW AM I GOING TO -- YOU JUST PUT YOUR NOSE TO THE GRIND STONE AND YOU JUST DO IT.

YOU JUST DON'T WHINE, YOU DON'T COMPLAIN.

FOR THAT'S NOT BECOMING FOR THE VOTERS TO SEE YOU WINE AND COMPLAIN.

YOU SIMPLY SAY THAT'S THE DISTRICT.

THAT'S WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

I FOLLOW THE LAW.

I'M GOING TO GO AHEAD AND DO IT.

>> LET'S JUST SAY IT'S A DELAY IN NOT TWO PRIMARIES.

WHICH CANDIDATES ARE HELPED BY A DELAY, WHICH ARE SNURT DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

AS GENE SAID PUT YOUR NOSE DOWN AND DO THE WORK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

CANDIDATES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE ACTUALLY BENEFIT IN SOME WAY BECAUSE ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE RUNNING AGAINST AN INCUMBENT, THEN YOU HAVE MORE TIME TO ACTUALLY TALK TO VOTERS.

SO, IN THAT REGARD, YOU KNOW, IT'S A WIN.

THE LOSER HERE IS THE PUBLIC BECAUSE THE BOTTOM LINE IS EVERY TIME YOU DELAY THIS THING, THIS PRIMARY OR YOU HAVE TO HAVE TWO PRIMARIES, THE TAXPAYERS PAY FOR THAT.

AGAIN, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN ALL AVOIDED IF THE GOP WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, HANDLED THIS PROCESS WITH A LITTLE MORE INTENSITY.

>> TWO PRIMARIES COULD COST THE STATE AT LEAST $15 MILLION BASED ON ELECTIONS FROM A FEW YEARS AGO.

IN A STATEMENT TO THAT POINT, FRANK LAROSE SAID WE CAN'T HAVE THE MAY 3rd PRIMARY WITH BOTH LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE OFFICES ON THE BALLOT.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TWO OR DELAY IT?

WHAT ARE THE CHANCE VOFZING TWO RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THAT'S HARD FOR THE REASON YOU LISTED.

IT'S GOING TO COST MORE MONEY.

I THINK THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS WHEN WE'RE GOING TO MOVE IT AND HOW FAR BACK.

WE HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION SET FOR AUGUST.

SO, ARGUABLY THE CHEAPEST MOVE MIGHT BE TO GO TO AUGUST.

THAT COULD BECOME PROBLEMATIC FOR CANADA.

>> THERE HAS TO BE DEMOCRATS OUT THERE WAITING FOR THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP TO COME OUT AND BE APPROVED.

BECAUSE THERE LIKELY WILL BE MORE AVAILABLE DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS BASED ON HOW THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE THREE SAFE DISTRICTS FOR DEMOCRATS.

CHANCES ARE YOU HAVE AT LEAST SIX TO MEET THE CONSTITUTIONAL THRESHOLD.

MY GUESS IS THERE ARE A LOT OF CANDIDATES IN A WAITING GAME TO SEE IF THEY'LL RUN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

FOLKS THINKING ABOUT RUNNING FOR CONGRESS IN SOME OF THESE OPPORTUNITY DISTRICTS ARE DEFINITELY KEEPING THEIR EYE OUT FOR WHEN THESE MAPS ARE GOING TO BECOME FINAL.

>> GENE, I HATE TO BE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST BUT IS THAT PART OF THE MIXTURE THAT THE LONGER IT TAKES THE DISADVANTAGE IT GIVES TO CHALLENGERS, WHETHER THEY BE EREPUBLICAN CHALLENGERS OR GETTING REALLY SOLID DEMOCRATS THEIR CAMPAIGNS UP AND RUNNING?

>> I THINK WHAT IT WOULD DO IS -- FOR ANY -- FOR DEMOCRAT PRIMARIES, IT WILL BE PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE THEY'RE LOOKING TO CHALLENGE THE INCUMBENT REPUBLICAN, THEN THEY'RE BOTH CAMPAIGNS FUNCTIONING.

SO, THAT WILL INCREASE THEIR COSTS OVER TIME.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS ON THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY SIDE, IT'S GIVING THE CHALLENGERS TO MIKE DEWINE MORE TIME GET ORGANIZED AND GET GOING EVERYTHING.

AND ON WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A PRIMARY FOR THE U.S. SENATE, THERE'S FIVE CANDIDATES, I THINK, RIGHT NOW AND MOST OF US OF THE OLDER SET THINK WHOEVER WINS WILL WIN WITH 21%.

SO, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL ON THE REPUBLICAN U.S. SENATE PRIMARY.

>> MORE TIME ON THE U.S. SENATE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES AND MORE TIME FOR THEM TO TRY TO WIN THE EFECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

THERE'S NO INDICATION HE'S CLOSE TO GIVING IT, IF HE'S EVEN GOING TO GIVE IT IN THIS RACE.

ANYTHING NEW ON THAT THIS WEEK?

>> NO.

HIS ENDORSEMENT IS STILL THE GOLD STANDARD FOR A LOT OF THE ONLY THING WE HEARD THIS WEEK IS IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE, JIM SENT OUT A MAILER SAYING HE WAS ENDORSED BY TRUMP, WHICH WAS TRUE IN 2018.

AND SO, HE GOT A LITTLE BIT OF FLACK FOR USING AN OLD ENDORSEMENT ON A NEW FLYER.

>> DID HE HAVE FINE PRINT AT LEAST?

>> NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE QUIRKY THINGS THAT HAPPENS IN CAMPAIGNS.

HE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S ENDORSEMENT AND I'M PRETTY SURE MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE PRIMARY FEEL THE SAME WAY.

>> ENDORSED BY THE PRESIDENT A LONG TIME AGO BUT ENDORSED NONETHELESS.

NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH BUT SOME OF THE TRUTH.

THE MASKS ARE COMING OFF.

VEXLY ENDED ITS COVID MASK MANDATE.

COLUMBUS COUNTY DECIDED TO HOLD OFF A LITTLE WHILE LONGER.

THE LATEST CDC TRANSMISSION MAP SHOWED FRANKLIN COUNTY TO ORANGE.

COLUMBUS OFFICIALS SAY WE HAVE TO GET DOWN TO YELLOW.

THAT IS A MODERATE RATE OF SPREAD TO DITCH THE MAP RULES.

AND HIGHWAYS AND OFFICE PARKING LOTS ARE GETTING CROWDED.

EMPLOYEES ARE HEADING BACK TO THE OFFICE AND NOT EVERYBODY'S HAPPY ABOUT IT.

BUT DERRICK CLAY, FIRST TO THE WHOLE MASK THING.

THE CDC IS KNOWING TO BASE RECOMMENDATIONS ON HOSPITALIZATIONS, NOT CASES.

WE'RE SEEING THE END OF THE MASK MANDATE, AT LEAST FOR ARE NOW, IT SEEMS, ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> AS OF EARLY AS YESTERDAY, OHIO SAW 90% DROP IN CASES.

SINCE THE PEEK IN JANUARY.

IF THE CASE LOAD GOES DOWN, THEN SOME OF THE MUNICIPALITIES AND COUNTIES ARE LOOKING AT WHETHER THEY SHOULD KEEP THOSE MASK MANDATES IN PLACE.

I KNOW THAT CITY OF COLUMBUS, THE MAYOR WANTS -- ANDREW GEMPLER WANTS TO MAKE SURE WE LOOK AT THOSE CASES A FEW MORE WEEKS TO MAKE SURE THE CITY OF COLUMBUS WILL LIFT THEIR MANDATES.

AT FIRST IT WAS DELTA AND THEN OMICRON.

SO, YOU KNOW, ONCE WE START TO THINK THINGS ARE GOING DOWN, THERE'S ANOTHER VARIANT OUT THERE.

OFFICIALS ARE BEING CAUTIOUS AT THIS POINT.

>> AND THEN WE LEARN THERE'S A VARIANT OF THE VARIANT, IF WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH TO BE WORRIED ABOUT.

THE COVID OMICRON VARIANT VARIANT.

WE'LL KEEP AN EYE ON THAT.

MASK MANDATES NOT REALLY AN ISSUE.

MASK WEARING PROBABLY NOT A HUGE ISSUE OUT THERE.

YOU EVER SEE A POINT WHERE FOLKS IN RURAL OHIO WILL GO BACK TO WEARING MASKS IF THINGS DO GET BAD?

>> THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE BUT NOTHING SHORT OF THAT.

AND REALLY, THAT'S IT.

THEY DO NOT FEEL THEY NEED TO WEAR A MASK.

THIS COVID HAD ABOUT A 2% MORTALITY RATE, ALTHOUGH SOME INDICATION LOOKING AT THE EXCESS DEATH NUMBERS IT MAY BE SEVERAL TIMES THAT NUMBER.

AND IF YOU READ THE BOOK "PALE RIDER" ON THE SPANISH FLU, HISTORY SELDOM REPEATS AND OFTEN RHYMED.

RIGHT NOW WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THE LATE WINTER SPIKE OF OMICRON AND SPIKES OF THE SPANISH FLU, HISTORY REALLY DOES RHYME.

IT'S MUCH THE SAME THING.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR PRIMARY KEPT GETTING MOVED ALL THOSE YEARS AGO AND WE'RE BACK IN THE SAME SPOT ALL THESE YEARS LATER.

MOVING TO THE WORK FROM HOME SITUATION.

WHEN YOU GO BACK TO THE OFFICE, WE'RE GOING TO BE VERY DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE GREAT ARTWORK BEHIND GROU THE SHOW.

WHAT IS THE FEELING, DO YOU THINK, RIGHT NOW AMONG RANK AND FILE OFFICE WORKERS?

ARE THEY READY TO GO BACK OR DO SOME WANT TOSTAY HOME PERMANENTLY?

>> I KNOW MANY FOLKS ARE LOOKING AT HYBRID MODEL.

MONDAY, FRIDAY AT HOME.

TUESDAY, WEDNESDAYS AT THE LEGISLATURE.

MANY OF MY NEIGHBORS APPRECIATE THAT FLEXIBILITY.

NICE TO PICK MY DAUGHTER UP FROM THE SCHOOL BUS WHEN SHE GETS HOME AND HAVE MORE FLEXIBILITY IN THE SCHEDULE AND DO A LOAD OF LAUNDRY BEEN TWEEN WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO CALL BACK.

WHAT THE PANDEMIC IS SHOWN IS WE CAN WORK WELL FROM OUR HOMES AND HAVING THE MIXTURE AND THAT FLEXIBILITY IS -- SEEMS TO BE REALLY VALUABLE RIGHT NOW.

>> IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE IN THE OFFICE.

HOW IS YOUR COMPANY HANDLING THIS?

AND DO YOU THINK THAT EVENTUALLY MEMORIES WILL FADE AND WORKERS WON'T HAVE AS MUCH PULL AS NOW AS THE ECONOMY TAKES A BIT OF A DOWN TURN, THAT PEOPLE WILL BE BACK IN THE OFFICE MORE THAN NOW MOW MATTER WHAT?

>> YOU KNOW, TO ANA'S POINT, COVID HAS DEFINITELY TAUGHT US WE CAN WORK FROM ANYWHERE.

AND WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS, YOU CAN DO IT VERY WELL.

OUR OFFICE SITUATION HERE IS MOST OF THE PROFESSIONALS IN OUR OFFICE ARE ACTUALLY IN THE OFFICE DAILY.

BUT WE DO HAVE SOME FLEXIBILITY WITH THE HYBRID MODEL AS WELL.

SO, OF COURSE, IF ANYBODY IS FEELING SICK OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THEY OF COURSE CAN TAKE THEIR LAPTOP HOME AND WORK FROM HOME.

I DO THINK THAT THE DOWNTOWN BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET SOME OF?

FOLKS BACK INTO THE OFFICES ON A NORMAL BASIS.

BECAUSE BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HONESTLY, SUFFERING BECAUSE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF TRAFFIC DOWNTOWN.

>> IT DOES GO INTO A PUBLIC POLICY DEBATE.

I MEAN, WE'RE TRYING TO GET ALL THESE MIXED USE DEVELOPMENTS.

OFFICE, RETAIL, AND RESIDENTIAL AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW MANY HIGHWAYS WE NEED TO WIDEN TO GET PEOPLE TO AND FROM WORK EVERY DAY.

IF 20% OF THE WORKFORCE STAYS HOME EVERY DAY, WE HAVE TO RETHINK THAT, RIGHT?

>> MY FIRST THINK TANK WAS WITH ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, URBAN REDEVELOPMENT, FARM AND PRESERVATION.

SO, THE ISSUE OF ZONING IS ONE I'M FAMILIAR WITH.

THE IMPEDIMENT TO THIS IS FOR A LOT OF THESE CORPORATIONS, THEY MAY HAVE NINE BUILDINGS ON THEIR CAMPICE AND THEY ONLY NEED ONE OF THEM.

BUT THEY CAN'T CONVERT THOSE OTHER BUILDINGS OVER TO APARTMENTS OR CONDOS BECAUSE OF ZONING.

IT'S ZONE COMMERCIAL AND THEY'VE REACHED OUT TO THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITY TO SAY HEY, YOU GUYS HAVE FLEXIBILITY CONVERTING THESE TO CONDOS AND THEY GO NO, THAT'S AN INDUSTRIAL PARK, A RESEARCH PARK.

WE DON'T WANT CONDOS IN THERE.

SO, NOW THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT WE NEED TO JUSTIFY OUR EXPENSES FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY DISRUPTIVE AND TOUGH SITUATION FOR MANY FOLKS.

>> IMAGINE WHAT THE MILL WORKERS FROM 100 YEARS AGO THINK IN THE FANCY LOFTS IN THE OLD FACTORY IN THE URBAN AREAS, THE WAY THEY USED TO SWEAT AND TOIL EVERY DAY.

AFTER MOUNT CARMEL FIRED HIM, FACING A JURY THIS WEEK.

HIS MURDER TRIAL BEGAN IN FRANKLIN COUNTY COURT.

DO THEY THINK HE INJECTED CRITICALLY ILL PATIENTS TO EASE SUFFERING OR SPEED DEATH?

HE GAVE 14 PATIENTS, HE'S CHARGED WITH MURDERING, DOSES OF OPIOID PAIN KILLERS THAT FAR EXCEED WHAT WAS PRESCRIBED.

HIS EXCUSE IS SOME HAD BUILT UP A HIGH TOLERANCE TO THE DRUG.

IN A MURDER WHERE THE GUN IS PRETTY SIMPLE.

WAS IT SELF DEFENSE OR DID YOU INTENTIONALLY KILL THE PERSON?

THERE'S NO DOUBT WHAT HAPPENED.

WITH MEDICINE AND DOSING, THIS IS REALLY DIFFICULT.

>> YEAH.

AND SO, HERE'S THE STATEMENT.

PRIOR TO THE MID1990s, THERE WAS NO LEGISLATION, NO LAW IN OHIO DEALING WITH WHAT IS CALLED PALATIVE CARE IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

I HAVE TO GIVE FULL CREDIT TO THEN REPRESENTATIVE TOPS WHO RUNS THE CENTRAL OHIO HABITAT FOR HUMANITY.

SAW THE NEED FOR THIS, HAD LEGISLATION FOR IT AND IN 2019 DID AN UPDATE TO HIS WORK.

WHEN THIS CASE HAPPENED, I WAS STUNNED.

I'M GOING THIS HAS BEEN OLD LONG-TERM SETTLED LAWS THAT UPDATED.

HOW COULD THERE HAVE BEEN THIS AMOUNT OF QUESTION WHERE THINGS LIKE THIS COULD HAVE ALLEGED TO HAVE HAPPENED?

AND I'M JUST -- I WAS JUST BAFFLED.

I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THE CASE A LITTLE BIT.

SFLRLS PROFESSIONAL INTEREST AND I STILL CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW THIS WHOLE THING HAPPENED LIKE THIS.

>> THIS IS -- PART OF IT IS THE PROBLEM WITH OPIOIDS THAT THERE ARE SO MANY FOLKS TAKING THEM FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS OR SO FOR TREATMENT OF ILLNESSES OR PERHAPS THEY BECAME ADDICTED TO IT, THAT IT TAKES MORE AND MORE OPIOIDS TO KILL THE PAIN, TO STOP THE SUFFERING AND THAT'S PERHAPS ONE THING YOU JUST CAN'T LEGISLATE.

>> NO.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING ARGUMENTS ABOUT ONE OF THE PATIENTS IN THE CASE WAS THAT HE'D BEEN IN SURGERY NOT TOO LONG BEFORE AND BEEN GN GIVEN MANY MORE TIMES THE DOSAGE OF FENTANYL AS THE DOCTOR INJECTED HIM.

I ACTUALLY THINK THERE WERE, I BELIEVE 11 CLAIMS DISMISSED, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS GOING TO REACH THE THRESHOLD.

IT WAS 25 CASES AND NOW WE'RE DOWN TO 14 CASES BECAUSE THEY WERE ARGUING THOUGH IT WAS A LARGE DOSE, PERHAPS NOT A FATAL DOSE OR THE PROSECUTOR DIDN'T THINK THEY COULD MAKE THOSE CASES.

>> DERRICK CLAY, IS THERE ANY WAY TO PUT A MARKER AND SAY IF YOU GIVE MORE THAN THIS AMOUNT, THIS IS INTENTIONAL?

COULD BE CALLED EUTHANASIA OR MURDER AND LES THAN THIS AMOUNT IS PAIN AND SUFFERING?

SHOULD WE LEGISLATE IT?

>> I KNOW THE OHIO STATE MEDICAL BOARD IS LOOKING A THAT CASE VERY CLOSELY.

BECAUSE THERE MAY BE SOME LEGISLATION THAT COMES OUT IN RESPONSE TO THIS CASE.

BECAUSE THE PROSECUTION IS GOING TO HAVE TO PROVE THAT HE INTENTIONALLY DID THIS.

AND THEY HAVE A NUMBER OF CASES AND EVIDENCE RIGHT NOW THAT HE DID.

BUT IT'S BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT THEY HAVE TO CONVINCE THE JURY THAT THIS HAPPENED.

SO, YOU CAN VERY WELL SEE SOME LEGISLATION AROUND HOW YOU GIVE OUT MEDICINE.

>> THAT AND HOSPITALS CHANGING POLICIES, TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THE SCIENCE.

LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

GENE, YOU GO FIRST.

>> TWO WEEKS AGO THE UNIVERSE AND ANTICORRUPTION EFFORTS IN OHIO CHANGE.

I WON'T GO INTO REASONS WHY.

BUT BECAUSE OF THAT, I THINK YOU CAN NOW BEGIN TO EXPECT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO START TAKING A CLOSE LOOK AT SOME OF THE ACTORS IN THE UTILITY INDUSTRY.

AS TO WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE OHIO COUNSEL BUDGET WAS CUT IN HALF AND THEY ATTEMPTED, IN EFFECT, TO DESTROY THE AGENCY.

I THINK YOU'LL SEE THAT COME BACK NOW.

>> INTERESTING.

DERRICK CLAY.

>> WE DON'T HAVE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS YET IN THE STATE.

AND YOU KNOW, ALSO THE FACT THAT THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION HAS TO GO BEFORE THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

I THINK ALL THERE'S LESSONS TO BE LEARNED FROM THE STATE OF IOWA THAT HAVE A MUCH SIMPLER PROCESS WHERE POLITICS ARE LARGELY LEFT OUT OF IT.

>> YOU'RE UP.

>> THE COLUMBUS MONTHLY THIS WEEK PUBLISHED THE DEFINITIVE ARTICLE.

I THINK IT'S WELL WORTH THE READ IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN POLITICS IN OHIO.

THEY ARE ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST FAMILIES IN THE COUNTRY AND IT DETAILS ALL THEIR INNER FIGHTING, SECURITY FRAUD, ALLEGATION.

THE WHO'S WHO OF THIS VERY LARGE AND POWERFUL LOCAL FAMILY.

>> MY OFF THE RECORD COMMENT.

ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO A DELEGATION FROM UKRAINE VISITED ON THE "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" SET AND THEY WERE COMMITTED JOURNALISTS WHO WANTED TO TELL THE STORIES OF THEIR PEOPLE.

WE JUST HOPE THEY'RE ALL SAFE THIS WEEK.

THAT'S "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.ORG/COTR.

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