(intense music) - The Ohio Supreme Court suspends a Cleveland judge over misconduct, Ohio Republican leaders appeal to the United States Supreme Court over the Congressional map ruled unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court, and health leaders say emerging coronavirus subvariants could create a winter wave.

"Ideas" is next.

(intense music) Hello and welcome to "Ideas."

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thanks for joining us.

The Ohio Supreme Court suspended indefinitely Cleveland Municipal Court Judge Pinkey Carr, after an investigation found that she ran her courtroom more like a game show host than a judge.

She also can't practice law, but can apply for the reinstatement of her law license after two years.

The fight over Ohio's unconstitutional congressional maps has been appealed to the United States Supreme Court, as state legislative leaders argue that the Ohio Supreme Court has no authority in this process.

Ohio isn't the only state basing its case on what had been considered a fringe theory.

More Covid-19 variants are emerging.

Ohio health leaders worry about another pandemic winter.

And Cedar Point does not have to issue refunds to season pass holders whose access was cut off due to the pandemic shortened 2020 season.

Joining me to talk about these stories and more, from Idea Stream Public Media, Senior Reporter Kabir Bhatia and digital reporter Stephanie Czekalinski, and from Columbus, Ohio Public Radio State House News Bureau Chief Karen Kasler.

Let's get ready to round table.

The Ohio Supreme Court this week removed Cleveland Municipal Court Judge Pinkey Carr from the bench and suspended her law license, determining that she flouted the rules, lacked decorum, and ran her courtroom more like a game show host than a judge.

Kabir, the Supreme Court went actually further than the Board of Professional Conduct's recommendations in this case.

So the Board of Professional Conduct looked into it and said two-year suspension.

Supreme Court said, that's not enough.

- They said the two years, I believe what was cited, even by the board was that that was for, in previous cases, one or two infractions.

This is dozens and dozens, over a hundred, I believe, is the number, so they went beyond the two years.

Even the judge was saying, how about two years but in six months I can reapply?

And that didn't fly either so they just made it indefinite.

And the fact that someone's gonna be appointed to that and then later subsequently elected to that seat, means that that indefinite could be permanent.

I mean, she can't even reapply for her license for two years.

- And someone to be appointed to her seat, that'll be governor Mike DeWine now that's able to make that appointment.

- [Khabir] True.

- What's interesting is it wasn't a unanimous decision.

It was five to two.

But the two who dissented didn't dissent because they didn't think she should be sanctioned.

They thought?

- They still said the two years is what we probably would've done.

So in either case, she was looking at at least a two-year, but as you mentioned, it was five to two and the majority said, no, she's gotta be on indefinite suspension from this.

There was tchotchkes all over her bench.

There's the interview where she's specifically saying, I did not issue warrants, and then they found video that said the exact opposite from the courtroom.

There's other things I'm sure Stephanie wants to get into.

- Yeah, Stephanie, so let's talk a little bit about how this all started.

So this has been going on for a while.

Her behavior has been like this.

I mean, sometimes she wears tank tops and workout gear to court, things that are just decorum issues.

But when it comes to issuing warrants to people that don't show up for a hearing, when the court is essentially closed except you and your courtroom say you're coming in, that's what really launched this.

- That's what launched it but that's not where it ended.

There were other problems that the examination found, including that Carr was jailing people in an effort to get them to pay fines to make more money for the court.

Cleveland.com reported that she once ordered a woman to spend 15 days in jail because the woman rolled her eyes and made disparaging remarks in Carr's courtroom during a hearing.

And you know, there's other things too.

She apparently negotiated plea deals with defendants on behalf of city prosecutors.

This is again according to cleveland.com.

- [Mike] And not her job?

- [Stephanie] Yeah.

- Right, I mean that's the prosecutor's job.

- That's correct.

- And that's where, when I mentioned there's a number of other things that were breaking rules, those are some of the rules that they say were broken.

- Yes, the quote from the disciplinary counsel's filing was that "The severity and scope of the judicial misconduct is unprecedented in Ohio."

So pretty serious.

- It is serious stuff.

And Karen, let's talk about that.

We mentioned that the court was not unanimous, but they all did agree that this was something that at least involved removing her from the bench.

Now she's gonna get replaced by Governor DeWine, so we'll see, unusually, in the Cleveland Municipal Court, a Republican judge.

- Yeah, and this is the first time since 2014 that a Cleveland judge has been removed, and like you said, Governor Mike DeWine gets to appoint somebody until that special election is held, and that position is filled then by voters.

The whole thing I think, you know, it's easy to look at some of the things like she had all the tchotchkes on her desk, and she was wearing spandex and tank tops in court, and talking about some sort of Mississippi strip club, and calling her bailiff a name and things like that.

You know, these are all things that are interesting to point out, and maybe people might poke fun at them, but there were people who spent days in jail because of this, and that's why this is so serious.

In the arguments before the Ohio Supreme Court on her disciplinary case, one of the justices said there were five people who spent 28 days in jail because of some of the rulings that she issued.

And so that's the real question, and that was the question that the justices asked, how did things like sleep apnea, and menopause, and untreated mental issues affect her judgment to the point that she was issuing these orders, She was holding court when she shouldn't have been, she was lying about this.

That's all kind of part of this whole thing, and it's really a fascinating but weird, but serious case.

- And some of the things that you just mentioned were things that she brought up in her defense.

I mentioned anxiety and depression, but there were other things that she brought up, which might be things that contributed to her behavior.

- Right, and the question then, of course, before the justices was how do these things relate?

I mean, certainly there are people who have sleep apnea, and menopause, and anxiety, and function, and they don't lie and they don't do some of these other things.

And so that was really kind of the issue of was she being honest even with her own mental health treatment team.

And so the justices, I guess decided, again, five to two, saying that this suspension, this very serious suspension is warranted for what is essentially a pretty serious case.

- And it can get more serious for her, Kabir.

I mentioned that the attorney general is looking into this.

What could that lead to?

- That could lead to all sorts of charges.

She seems to have crossed the line, as Karen kind of touched on from eccentric and humorous oddities, to possible criminal charges.

And that's what Yost is looking into, the Attorney General's office, and seeing if there are actual charges they can file for things like, I think at one point she was mentioning plea deals based on if you'll give me storage space or bring me food to defendants coming into court.

- [Mike] That doesn't sound kosher.

- No, that is not kosher at all.

You're not supposed to do that.

And as Stephanie mentioned, all of those plea deals, those are the jobs of the prosecutor's office.

So Yost is gonna look into that.

They've appointed a special prosecutor to review whether there are criminal charges to be filed here.

(intense music) - The latest polling shows the race between JD Vance and Tim Ryan for US Senate is essentially tied.

Vance and Ryan went at each other in their second and final debate this week in Youngstown, Ryan's home turf.

It had more personal jabs this time.

Format allowed the candidates to spar a little bit.

- Yeah, I'm really, really refraining from commenting on the production values.

I mean I'm recalling when Idea Stream produced the 2018 governor's debate between Mike DeWine and Richard Cordray, and it was this fabulous production as well as incredible content.

This had good content.

- And an amazing moderator.

- [Mike] I think with that.

- Well, ahh (laughs) - But this had good content in that you did get an opportunity to hear the candidates go back and forth a little bit because, you know, we have to remember, while debates are important forums where we can get real information about candidates, they are also television shows and streaming shows essentially, and so having those moments where the candidates really relate to one another, and having those periods of drama, does make something like this more interesting for people to watch.

And you had a couple of those moments where specifically Tim Ryan went after JD Vance for the so-called Great Replacement Theory, which is this conspiracy theory that non-white voters are coming into the country to replace white voters.

And that's something that some conservative and far right pundits have talked about, including some of the people that JD Vance has been talking to during his campaign.

And of course the issue of abortion, some other issues that really came up.

And so there were some real opportunities to see the candidates spar back and forth.

In the previous debate, the Monday before, it was a little bit more staid, and what I thought was interesting in the first debate, last Monday, the candidates even dressed alike.

I mean, they were wearing almost the same outfit.

So this time it was a little different.

But I think both of these together have given people an opportunity to see the candidates face to face and see how they relate to one another.

And boy you can hear a lot of Scherer-Brown in Tim Ryan, in some of the comments that he was making and the way that he's presenting himself.

And you could hear some of the frustration that JD Vance has had with some of the things that have been said about him.

- Though when you see JD Vance, I think one of the things, the question is, whether he's just acquitting himself well enough.

You know, he's not a politician.

He hasn't run for office in the past.

And when he stands up there on those debates, he's givin' it pretty good.

- Oh yeah, I mean, he was pushing back, and certainly his followers on Twitter were retweeting videos of him when he and Ryan really sparred over that whole Great Replacement Theory because JD Vance is married to a daughter of South Asian immigrants, and so he really took personal offense to that.

Though again, he's been on Fox News with Tucker Carlson talking about that so-called Great Replacement Theory.

You know, there were these moments of real interaction that I think were important.

And that's one reason why we wanna see debates happen is because those opportunities are rare, they're not scripted, they're not in front of somebody with cue cards and directing them and everything.

These are are real moments between human beings who one of them is gonna be elected to represent you, in this case in the US Senate.

These are important issues and that's why debates are just critical, I think.

Even if people say they don't wanna watch, they should consider watching.

(intense music) - Ohio Republican State House leaders say the state Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Congressional district maps and have joined with North Carolina to have the US Supreme Court intervene.

The Ohio Supreme Court ruled the congressional districts drawn by the Ohio Redistricting Commission represent an unconstitutional gerrymander.

Karen, the lawmakers are now claiming the Supreme Court has no role in the process at all.

They're the same ones who put the voter reforms into the state constitution, gave the Ohio Supreme Court oversight.

- Right, and in my conversations with the candidates for the five executive offices, which are governor, auditor, Attorney General, Secretary of State and treasurer, I asked the three governor, auditor, and Secretary of State who are on the Ohio Redistricting Commission about redistricting, and the most recent one I produced, which was with Frank LaRose and Chelsea Clark, who are running for Secretary of State, I talked to them a little bit about this and Frank LaRose specifically said that he feels that the Ohio Supreme Court went too far.

And that's what a lot of Republicans have been saying.

They feel the Ohio Supreme Court went too far in their decisions.

You might remember that there was even talk about impeaching Chief Justice Maureen O'Connor, the Republican Chief Justice, because she also ruled with the three Democrats on the court.

So there's a real feeling among Republicans that the Supreme Court is not where they want any of this to be decided, and so they joined in on this case, which is a case outta North Carolina, Moore v. Harper, that the US Supreme Court will hear.

But this independent state legislature theory really gives lawmakers tremendous power when it comes to drawing congressional maps, and then you could potentially take that onto other situations involving federal elections.

And so I'm not surprised at all to see Ohio jump in on this because of what's been happening with redistricting here.

When I talk to some legal experts, they've said that Ohio having two constitutional amendments that specifically spell out some of these things is a bit more helpful for voters who are concerned and frustrated about this process.

But what the US Supreme Court decides here could be really, really interesting and really important in Ohio.

- So the contention though is that the lawmakers, the legislature, has complete control over this, but we have an electorate who has made a directive in the form of an amendment to the Constitution saying this is what must happen.

Do they not have an obligation to follow the constitution?

- Well, and that's the question.

I mean, the independent state legislature theory suggests that only state lawmakers, which I presume would also rule out voters who approved this constitutional amendment, that only state lawmakers have the ability to draw the maps for congressional elections.

And so the arguments in this, I think, will be really interesting to follow and figure out how Ohio, with those two constitutional amendments, the one in 2015 on State House and Senate maps, and the one in 2018 with the congressional map, how those play in and whether the justices feel that voters, who overwhelmingly approved the changes to this and gave the Supreme Court the option and the authority to step into this, whether that will be something that the US Supreme Court will uphold.

- Now we're talking about congressional maps, but we've been talking about this mess forever, including the state legislative maps, that create that super majority in the State House.

They're gerrymandered.

That's one of the reasons that we see a legislature that's not really reflective of the electorate.

Where does the process stand on the state legislative maps?

- Well we are, again, under the election that will happen in 17 days, and the one that happened in August, these are maps that are unconstitutionally gerrymandered as ruled by the Ohio Supreme Court, so presumably the Ohio Redistricting Commission, once the election's over, is going to have to reconstitute and come back and draw a new set of maps for the next time that the House and the Senate and the congressional offices will be on the ballot, which will be in 2024.

And there are three members of that commission that are elected directly.

Again, Governor, Secretary of State and auditor.

And so who wins those positions will be very important in what happens with the constitution of that Ohio redistricting commission.

So this is not over by any stretch whether we wanted it to be or not.

We've been doing this for over a year now, you know?

And I think a lot of people when they voted for those constitutional amendments to change the process that they did not even remotely expect that this would happen.

And even some of the people I've talked to who are on the commission have said, this is not what we expected.

But it sure seems like there's always a way around what the court's ruling is.

- And not only the folks who would be elected, who would serve on that commission, but also the Supreme Court.

And we've got a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, you mentioned Maureen O'Connor, who the Republicans wanted to impeach.

She's a Republican.

She's leaving, there's a race to replace her.

There are other open seats on the court.

That makeup could make a big difference here.

And perhaps the issue is if you don't get the work done to redraw the maps until after there's a new Supreme Court, then whatever map you draw would likely pass through if there's a Republican majority.

- Right, and it's important to note that there are three positions here, Chief Justice and two associate justices, and if Jennifer Brunner, the Democrat, who's running against Republican Sharon Kennedy, they're both on the court right now.

Whoever wins, Governor Mike DeWine gets the opportunity to replace them on the court because of the way that the terms coincide.

Even if he loses the governor's race, he does appoint the new person to replace either Brunner or Kennedy.

So that position will stay Republican.

The other two, the two associate justices, you could make the argument the Democrats really need to win those to really affect change on the court.

Republicans really need to keep those, to have the balance that they want and to really maintain their majority.

(intense music) - The Covid-19 virus continues to mutate, creating new subvariants.

Health leaders in Ohio say they're worried about another pandemic winter and urge the unvaccinated to get the shot.

Stephanie, one of the more startling pronouncements is that we could see another wave of illness coinciding with the holiday season starting with Halloween and extending all the way through New Year's.

- Yes, winter is coming, I guess.

- [Mike] Okay, Jon Stark.

- (laughs) Dr. Gordon was talking about a couple of things that is on his radar.

It's more complicated than it was previously in the pandemic when we were just concerned about Covid-19.

He said that his doctors right now are seeing a variety of different respiratory illnesses coming in, including flu and rsv.

And if you haven't heard of rsv, it's a virus that infects children mostly, and it's a leading cause of bronchitis and pneumonia.

- I gotta look that up 'cause we've gotta have the rsv.

I don't allow acronyms.

- Okay, you're gonna have to Google it because I do not know.

- Go ahead.

- We'll get it before we're done.

- All right, also we're looking down at the southern hemisphere and they had a particularly nasty flu season, which normally does not bode well for us, and that has doctors on edge.

And then too, they're looking at Europe and China and there are new variants that are emerging, and also, just generally Covid numbers are ticking up in Europe which has been a bellwether for the United States.

So Covid's not done with us even if we're done with Govid.

- It's morphing.

And the rsv is respiratory syncytial virus.

Oh did you find it?

- [Mike] I looked it up.

You already knew it or do you have your computer out?

- We had it at home because my daughter decided, our four-year-old, at school, "I kissed everyone's hand and put it on their heart to show them love."

- That's beautiful.

- Oh what a sweetie.

- Two days later, everyone's sick.

- [Stephanie] That's beautiful.

- It went through the whole house.

And here's a caution for people.

Our son just turned three.

He was right on the cusp for them saying younger than that, it could be very serious.

He was right on the cusp.

Fortunately he's doing well, but it is going through the schools like wildfire and whenever we had to call for appointments recently, through Akron Children's in this case, they were completely booked up.

They said just go to urgent care 'cause that's probably what this is.

- Wow, and how fortuitous, you named your daughter Super Spreader.

- Yes, well that's her middle name.

We call her her first name.

- Let's talk about one of the things that's different than the earlier wave, Stephanie, is that many people are vaccinated and many people have had it.

I don't know anybody who isn't either vaccinated or has had Covid.

There's very few people like that.

So that's going to give us some sort of protection and maybe it won't be as bad.

So then you wonder, okay, you know, are they just telling us about the storm clouds gathering and scaring folks?

- You know, they don't seem to be alarmist in most cases.

It's just things that they are keeping track of and they're letting people know about it.

We do have many more tools at our disposal.

You mentioned the immunity that we have from the vaccine and from getting the virus itself, but we also have therapeutic options too.

So if you get infected and you're a high risk patient, you can take, you know, there are a variety of pills.

If you call your doctor within five days of exposure, they can write you a script to help you weather the storm.

So we're in a better spot.

But if you're thinking about Covid, one thing that Covid is really good at, and it's proven that it's good at, is mutating.

There was a lot of talk previously about the omicron variance.

Well, if you think about that as like the child of Covid, well the children are having children, so now there are sub-subvariants that are starting to pop up and things are, you know, getting a little more diverse.

- No one wants these grandkids to visit.

- No one wants these grandkids to visit this Christmas.

But what the doctors have said is that they're confident, as of now, that the protection that we're getting from the vaccines is holding up to these new variants.

It's true that omicron is good at evading the body's immune system to the extent that you may get a milder dose if you're already vaccinated.

But there's another kind of immunity that you get when you get the vaccine.

It's called cellular immunity, and it gives you a longer lasting protection against the disease.

And they said that that's still quite effective.

So they're urging people to get vaccinated, to get that new booster, and get themselves a little bit more protection.

- Should we be concerned that air travel has opened back up though?

And if these are happening in other countries?

- Right, I mean certainly.

The doctors did say, you know, like at this point it's all about personal choice.

So if you're feeling uncomfortable, pop that mask on.

And I know that people are exhausted about Covid.

I am (laughs) I am too.

I write a lot of articles about this.

You know, we're all ready for it to move on.

But when you're thinking about masks and protecting yourself, there's one stat that sticks out in my mind and that is that normally in any given year, 200 kids across the country die from the flu, last year, only one did.

So if you're feeling like you don't wanna get sick, you know, take those steps, put on a mask, stay home if you're not feeling well.

- Brings up another point, get your flu shot.

- That's right.

- It's also time to get your flu shot.

(intense music) - Cedar Point does not have to give refunds to season pass holders who couldn't use the park during the 2020 pandemic shutdown.

The Ohio Supreme Court ruled unanimously in the park's favor, saying it had the right to change its operating dates and hours.

- Yeah, this became a very technical argument between whether breach of contract, or some of the other legal terms that are involved in when you buy something from somebody, when you buy a ticket versus a season pass, a ticket to one event versus a pass to access to multiple days.

And so the bottom line was though that the state had ordered the parks not to open.

You might recall, back in March of 2020, there were shutdown orders and so the parks were not able to open as scheduled in May.

They actually went to court to ask for the permission to open in June, but they ended up opening in July.

And so the unanimous Supreme Court said this was not any sort of unjust enrichment on the part of Cedar Point.

They did not break a contract with their season pass holders.

It says very clearly in the agreement season pass holders sign when they buy the tickets, that hours and dates of operation can change without notice because of weather or other things.

Certainly Covid was one of those other things.

- It seems like act of God would come under that probably.

- And what's interesting too, Karen, is that it's not like it'd be bad for business to say, okay, well sorry we canceled that.

We're gonna keep the money.

What they did then is said, we'll extend your passes into 2021, they're still good, but the person who sued said, nope, I just want a refund, and that's where this jumped off.

- Right, and I mean, Cedar Point did a lotta things during the pandemic.

They cut hours, they cut pay for their own employees, their full-time employees, and did a lotta things to try to mitigate the damage of not being able to be open, which a lot of businesses also had to do.

And so the Supreme Court was again, unanimous in saying they didn't do anything that goes against the contract they had with their season pass holders, who had bought those season passes, obviously, before Covid hit.

I mean season passes for Cedar Pointer are on sale right now for next year.

(intense music) - Cleveland's role in propelling the environmental movement was marked this week as the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency commemorated the 50th anniversary of the Clean Water Act on the banks of the Cuyahoga River, whose 1969 fire got the nation's attention.

Stephanie, you think a lotta people maybe don't know that the environmental movement really got a boost right here in Cleveland?

- I don't think that people realize.

I think that people think about the amount of ridicule that Cleveland got after those fires, but I don't think that they understand the impact that those images mostly, especially I'm remembering, I don't remember exactly which magazine it was on the cover of, was it "Time?"

- I think inside "Time" there was a big layout and it was several months later and people are like, good Lord, this looks bad.

- Those images are so powerful of water burning that you know.

- [Mike] Yeah, for sure.

- [Khabir] It kick started the movement, yeah.

- And there was the picture with the hand dipped into the river.

as if it had been covered in ink.

- That too.

- That really drove it.

I know that Carl Stokes pushed for improvements then as the mayor and it did launch.

I mean, it was a terrible, embarrassing thing that finally smacked people upside the head and said, "Let's get something done about it."

- This summer I kayaked up and down that river and it was beautiful.

- It's beautiful now.

(intense music) Monday on the "The Sound of Ideas," we'll bring you an episode of "Talking Foreign Policy," a quarterly discussion of international affairs from the Case Western Reserve University School of Law.

This week's discussion focuses on Ukraine and the challenges of holding Russia accountable for the war there.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thank you so much for watching and stay safe.

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