>>> THE OHIO SUPREME COURT RULES AUGUST WILL BE SPECIAL.

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!musiC@!!!musiC@!

WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

THE AUGUST ELECTION TO DECIDE WHETHER TO MAKE IT HARDER TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION IS ON.

IN A SPLIT DECISION, THE OHIO SUPREME COURT RULED STATE LAWMAKERS CAN OVERALL A LAW THEY JUST PASSED.

THAT LAW MADE AUGUST ELECTIONS ILLEGAL EXCEPT IF THEY WERE TO ADDRESS A FISCAL EMERGENCY.

THIS IS NOT A FISCAL EMERGENCY.

THE QUESTION, IF PASSED, WOULD REQUIRE FUTURE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS GARNER A 60% MAJORITY.

IT'S AN EFFORT TO THWART A POSSIBLE NOVEMBER VOTE TO ENSHRINE ABORTION RIGHTS IN THE CONSTITUTION.

JO INGLES, WHAT WAS THE MAJORITY'S REASONING FOR GOING AROUND THE STATE LAW THAT WAS JUST PASSED?

>> WELL, THEY SAID THAT THIS LAW IS LEGAL AND THAT THERE IS NO REASON THAT IT CAN'T BE APPLIED.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THE OTHER SIDE SAYING, WELL, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY THERE NEEDED TO BE, YOU KNOW, SOME SORT OF LAW OR SOMETHING AS A VEHICLE FOR THIS AUGUST ELECTION.

BUT THE COURT'S NOT BUYING THAT.

>> MARK, IT'S BASICALLY SAYING, AND FRANK LaROSE SAID THIS THIS WEEK.

YES, WE HAVE A LAW, BUT THIS LAW DOES NOT APPLY TO STATE LAWMAKERS.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO MAKE SENSE.

>> WELL, IT DOES WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY.

STATE LAWMAKERS MADE A LAW.

THEY GET TO MAKE ANOTHER LAW.

I PRACTICE AT THE SUPREME COURT ALL THE TIME.

I KNOW THESE JUSTICES.

THEY CONSTANTLY PUT IN THEIR OPINIONS, WE DEFER TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON WHAT THE LAW IS.

THE ULTIMATE DECIDER OF WHAT THE LAW IS, OF COURSE, IS OUR STATEHOUSE.

>> HERB, THE CONSTITUTION DOES SAY THAT THIS IS THE PURVIEW OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO SET AN ELECTION WHENEVER THEY WANT.

SO THERE IS A LEGAL JUSTIFICATION FOR IT.

>> YEAH, BUT IT'S ALSO VERY POLITICAL, AND I'M SURE IF THE COURT HAD BEEN AFFORDED THREE DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY, THE RULING WOULD HAVE BEEN 4-3 THAT YOU CANNOT HOLD THE ELECTION IN AUGUST.

>> FISHER, WE THOUGHT HE MIGHT BE THE SWING VOTE.

HE VOTED WITH THE MAJORITY, BUT HE DID NOT SIGN OFF ON THEIR OPINION.

MARK, HOW UNUSUAL IS THAT?

DOES THAT GIVE US ANY INDICATION THAT MAYBE HE WASN'T TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF THIS?

>> I NOTICE JUSTICE FISHER PRETTY WELL.

HE'S A THOUGHTFUL PERSON.

THEY ALL ARE.

THEY ALL HAVE THEIR INTERNAL REASONS FOR WHAT THEY DO.

IT'S THE FINAL NUMBER THAT COUNTS, AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ELECTION, AND THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DECIDE.

THAT'S NOT A TERRIBLE THING.

THE PEOPLE WILL DECIDE.

>> IT IS IT UNUSUAL TO VOTE WITH THE MAJORITY BUT NOT SIGN ON TO THEIR OPINION?

>> THEY DON'T DO IT A LOT, BUT THEY DO SEE IT.

PEOPLE SOMETIMES DON'T LIKE THE REASONING.

YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED.

IN OTHER COURTS, THEY DON'T LIKE THE WRITING STYLE OF ONE OF THEIR JUSTICES.

THEY AGREE WITH THE RESULTS BUT THEY DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY SET IT.

THEY'VE GOT INTERNAL POLITICS ABOUT WHO AGREES WITH YOU.

>> HERB, DO YOU AGREE?

IS THAT THE REASON?

>> IT IS SURPRISING THAT HE DID NOT CONCUR OR OFFER A SEPARATE THOUGHT-OUT REASON.

HE JUST, AS I UNDERSTOOD IT, VOTED YES.

>> SO NOW WHAT?

JO, THE CAMPAIGN IS CLEAR TO GO.

I THINK MAYBE BOTH SIDES WERE WAITING BEFORE THEY INVEST A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY IN A CAMPAIGN THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY HAD THEY CANCELED THIS ELECTION.

BUT NOW THE CAMPAIGN IS ON.

>> YEAH.

THEY'RE BOTH READY TO GO.

THE LOSING SIDE SAID THEY'RE DOING IT.

THEY'RE WORKING ON IT RIGHT NOW.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BACKING THIS HAVE BEEN AT IT FOR A WHILE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE IT IS.

IT'S A FIGHT OVER THE AMENDMENT ITSELF NOW.

>> MARK, HOW IS THIS CAMPAIGN GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THAN -- IT'S ONE ISSUE ON THE BALLOT.

IT'S IN AUGUST.

IT'S STATEWIDE.

SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE -- YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO BE TURNING OUT TO VOTE FOR OTHER THINGS.

MIDDLE OF SUMMER.

VACATION SEASON.

WHAT'S THIS CAMPAIGN GOING TO LOOK LIKE FROM A STRATEGIST STANDPOINT?

>> WELL, MOST ELECTIONS ARE ABOUT PERSUASION AND TURNOUT.

A SUMMER ELECTION, IF YOU WANT TO WIN, IS ABOUT TURNOUT.

YOU ALREADY IDENTIFIED WHO'S GOING TO BE ON YOUR SIDE.

THEN YOU HAVE TO CONVINCE THEM ON AN ODD MONTH, I MEAN UNUSUAL MONTH, TO COME OUT AND VOTE.

OF COURSE IN OHIO, WE HAVE VOTING MONTH.

WE HAVE EARLY VOTING.

THE NOTION THAT PEOPLE ARE ON VACATION FOR THE WHOLE SUMMER AND CAN'T VOTE IS RATHER SILLY.

THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES.

BUT IT'S GOING TO BE LOW TURNOUT COMPARED TO WHAT WE NORMALLY SEE.

>> HERB, WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, BUT WE'RE NOT NORMAL.

THE AVERAGE PERSON OUT THERE IS DEALING WITH OTHER THINGS, DEALING WITH RISING INFLATION, VACATION PLANS, GETTING THEIR KIDS INTO SUMMER CAMPS, PLANNING THEIR RETIREMENT.

HOW HARD IS IT TO GET FOLKS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS?

>> IT WILL BE DIFFICULT, BUT I THINK BOTH SIDES REALIZE, AS MARK SAID, IT'S A TURNOUT ELECTION.

YOU'VE GOT TO START TARGETING YOUR SUPPORTERS.

FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THE AMENDMENT, THEY'RE VERY FRUSTRATED.

UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES WILL NOT BE IN SESSION.

IT'S A LOT EASIER TO REACH STUDENTS WHEN THEY'RE ON CAMPUS.

NOW THEY'RE ALL DISTRIBUTED ALL OVER THE STATE.

BUT THERE STILL ARE WAYS.

THERE ARE WAYS THROUGH MAIL TO GET ABSENTEE VOTING DONE.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS ONLINE TO GET PEOPLE.

SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT KIND OF MESSAGING THEY CAN SEND TO WHICH PEOPLE, HOW OFTEN THEY HAVE TO SEND IT, AND WHAT ARE THE APPEALS?

HOW SCARY ARE THE APPEALS TO GET PEOPLE TO VOTE YES OR TO VOTE NO OR WHATEVER.

I THINK IT WILL NOT BE A TERRIBLE TURNOUT.

IT WILL BE IN DOUBLE DIGITS.

>> YEAH, RIGHT.

>> THE QUESTION IS DOES IT GET ABOVE 20?

>> THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

>> DO WE GET TO 30s?

>> THE HIGHER THE TURNOUT, PROBABLY THE BETTER CHANCE OF THIS GETTING DEFEATED.

>> YEAH, THAT'S THE WISDOM.

THAT'S USUALLY ALWAYS THE WISDOM IS THAT THE HIGHER TURNOUT, THE BETTER FOR DEMOCRATS, AND THE DEMOCRATS ARE DEFINITELY AGAINST THIS.

BUT YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER THERE ARE A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE COMING OUT AGAINST IT.

FORMER A.G.s AND FORMER GOVERNORS, AND WE ALSO SEE A LOT OF BUSINESSES WHO ARE DEFECTING FROM THE MAJOR BUSINESS GROUPS THAT HAVE SUPPORTED THIS.

THE BUSINESSES THEMSELVES ARE COMING OUT AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT FOR THIS EITHER.

SO IT'S GOING TO DEPEND ON HOW THEY MOBILIZE THE VOTERS.

I MEAN THAT'S GOING TO BE THE KEY.

>> YOU KNOW, MARK, I'M NOT A STRATEGIST.

I DON'T WANT TO BE A STRATEGIST.

BUT IF I WERE TRYING TO CONVINCE A RURAL OHIO VOTER TO VOTE AGAINST THIS, I WOULD PUT A MAILER IN THEIR MAILBOX THAT SAYS, MIKE DeWINE WANTS TO TAKE YOUR VOTE AWAY.

A LOT OF FOLKS, THEY'RE NOT TOO KEEN ON THIS BECAUSE IT WILL HURT THEM DOWN THE ROAD FOR OTHER ISSUES THEY WANT, VACCINE MANDATES FOR INSTANCE.

>> THIS CUTS BOTH WAYS.

WHEN SPECIAL INTERESTS CAN BUILD THEIR OWN PROFIT INTO OUR CONSTITUTION BY GETTING SOMETHING PASSED STATEWIDE, IT COULD BE FROM THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT.

WE ALREADY SAW SPECIAL INTERESTS GUARANTEEING THEIR PROFITS IN THE GAMBLING INDUSTRY.

THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WANT TO TAKE THE POLICY THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH AND ENSHRINE IT IN YOUR CONSTITUTION.

>> SO, HERB, IS THERE A DANGER IF EITHER SIDE TIES THIS DIRECTLY TO THE ABORTION DEBATE?

IF THE FOLKS WHO SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS SAY THIS IS THE WAY TO PROTECT THOSE RIGHTS, AND THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT SAY THIS IS THE WAY TO CONTINUE YOUR FIGHT?

>> THAT WILL BE OUT THERE.

IF IT'S NOT OVERT, IT WILL BE COVERT.

YOU CAN'T DENY THAT IT WILL BE THERE.

BUT I THINK ALSO THE "NO" SIDE HAS AN ADVANTAGE IN SAYING THEY'RE TAKING AWAY YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE.

YOU'RE SENDING MORE POWER TO COLUMBUS.

AND I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE MORE APPEAL ACROSS THE BOARD, CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS, BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY EFFECTIVELY WHAT IT DOES.

IT'S SAYING IT'S MORE DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO EXERCISE A RIGHT THAT YOU HAD IN THE PAST, BUT NO IN FACT IT WILL BE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT WITH A 60% MAJORITY AND SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE UNBELIEVABLY TOUGH.

>> SPEAKING OF SIGNATURES, THE FOLKS WHO WANT TO PUT THE ABORTION RIGHTS ISSUE ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT HAVE JUST A FEW WEEKS LEFT, JUST A COUPLE WEEKS LEFT TILL JULY 5th TO TURN IN THEIR SIGNATURES.

JO, WHAT HAVE WE HEARD ABOUT HOW THAT IS GOING?

>> THEY SAY THEY'RE GETTING THE SIGNATURES.

THEY SAY THEY WILL HAVE THEM.

WE ARE SEEING WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN MESSAGES TO THEIR SUPPORTERS SAYING, HEY, GET YOUR PETITIONS IN.

GET THEM ALL IN ORDER.

SO IT'S LIKELY WHEN THEY COME IN, A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM SHOULD BE GOOD IF THEY'RE ACTUALLY CHECKING THEM AS THEY SAY THEY ARE.

>> MARK, THERE'S A GALLUP POLL THAT CAME OUT THIS WEEK THAT SHOWS GROWING SUPPORT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS.

THE ONE NUMBER THAT STRUCK ME AND STRUCK OTHERS IS 69% OF AMERICANS -- THIS WAS A NATIONWIDE POLL.

69% SAY ABORTION SHOULD BE LEGAL IN THE FIRST TRIMESTER.

>> YEAH.

>> THE FIRST 12 WEEKS.

DOES THIS -- THAT SHOULD BE A WARNING EVEN TO FOLKS WHO WANT THIS 60% THRESHOLD THAT, YOU KNOW, BY NOVEMBER IT COULD BE ENOUGH TO GET OVER THAT 60%.

>> COULD BE.

HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW ABORTION POLLING.

IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW YOU ASK THE QUESTION.

MOST AMERICANS ARE KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE.

VERY FEW AMERICANS WANT ALL ABORTIONS OUT, AND VERY FEW TAKE THE EXTREME DEMOCRATIC POSITION WHICH IS ANYTHING GOES UNTIL THE NINTH MONTH.

I THINK WHAT WILL BE INTERESTING ABOUT THE PETITIONS, I WANT EVERYONE TO LOOK OUT AT THE SKY THE DAY THE PETITIONS ARE FILED.

YOU'LL SEE PARACHUTING LAWYERS COMING IN TO CHECK SIGNATURES TO CONFIRM THEY'RE CORRECT.

THAT WILL BE THE NEXT BIG FIGHT.

IT'S ALWAYS THE BIG FIGHT.

IT'S NOTHING NEW.

BUT THE SIGNATURES, THERE WILL BE DOUBLES.

THERE WHETHER BE TRIPLES.

THERE WILL BE PETITIONS POORLY DRAFTED.

SO THE BATTLE OF THE ELECTION LAWYERS IS THE NEXT BIG BATTLE.

>> THEY DO HAVE THAT TEN-DAY GRACE PERIOD TO WORK THAT OUT.

>> THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW PRO CHOICE DEMOCRATS WHO ARE ADVOCATING FOR ABORTION FOR THE NINTH MONTH.

>> SHOULD THESE SUPPORTERS OF ABORTION RIGHTS HAVE MADE THIS AMENDMENT MORE LIMITING THAN IT IS?

HAD THEY SAID JUST FIRST TRIMESTER, IT'S LEGAL WITHOUT EXCEPTIONS, THEN LATER ON EXCEPTIONS FOR THE HEALTH OF THE MOTHER, WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN A SAFER BET?

>> THAT CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN SAFER, BUT THE QUESTION BECOMES WHAT IS THE MAGIC NUMBER?

IS IT 12 WEEKS, 15 WEEKS, 17 WEEKS, 22, 24?

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THEY CERTAINLY SAID THE OUTER LIMIT WOULD BE THE SECOND TRY MESS -- TRIMESTER UNLESS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE HEALTH OF THE MOTHER.

CERTAINLY THE LOWER THE NUMBER OF WEEKS ALLOWED, PROBABLY YOU WOULD HAVE STILL HAD SUPPORT FOR IT.

BUT A LOT OF OPPOSITION SAID, NO, 12 WEEKS IS -- THAT WOULD STILL BE TOO MUCH.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DAMPEN THE OPPOSITION TO A 12-WEEK VERSUS A 24.

YOU MAY HEIGHTEN THE OPPOSITION IF IT'S CLOSE TO 20, 24 WEEKS.

>> AUGUST IS ON.

WE SHALL SEE.

>>> THE OHIO SENATE FLEXED ITS CONSERVATIVE MUSCLES THIS WEEK AS IT APPROVED ITS VERSION OF THE STATE BUDGET.

THE SENATE PLAN INCLUDES A $3.1 BILLION IN TAX CUTS.

THE PLAN WOULD SPEND LESS MONEY ON SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAN THE GOVERNOR OR THE OHIO HOUSE PROPOSED.

THE SENATE BUDGET WOULD MAKE MAJOR CHANGES IN EDUCATION POLICY FOR K THROUGH 12 SCHOOLS.

IT WOULD GIVE POLICY CONTROLS TO THE GOVERNOR AND LEGISLATURE.

IT WOULD MAKE TAXPAYER-FUNDED PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS AVAILABLE TO ALL FAMILIES IN OHIO.

FOR HIGHER ED, IT WOULD BAN DIVERSITY TRAINING AT PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AS WELL AS REQUIRE PROFESSORS TO CREATE CLASSROOMS FREE FROM BIAS.

JO, THE HOUSE BUDGET GOT A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC VOTES WHEN IT PASSED.

THIS BUDGET DID NOT.

>> THIS HAD ZERO DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

IT PASSED PURELY ALONG PARTY LINES.

THIS IS GOING TO GO BACK TO THE HOUSE, AND THE HOUSE IS GOING TO SAY UH-UH.

THEN IT'S GOING TO GO TO A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE WHERE THEY'LL HAMMER OUT THE DIFFERENCES.

WE DID GET AN INDICATION FROM FINANCE CHAIR MATT DOLAN.

HE SAID BASICALLY THE STRATEGY IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND ENOUGH REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE TO PASS THIS.

HE'S NOT LOOKING TO DEMOCRATS TO PASS IT.

YOU KNOW, YOU COULD THEORETICALLY DO THAT, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER THAT THE OHIO HOUSE HAS HAD SOME PROBLEMS BECAUSE THERE IS A FRACTION OF -- THERE'S LIKE A GROUP THAT'S FOR THE SPEAKER AND A GROUP THAT'S AGAINST THE SPEAKER.

AND THEY KIND OF DISAGREE.

SO SOMETIMES SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE IT MIGHT BE AN EASY LIFT ISN'T SO EASY.

>> HERB ASHER, THE STATE IS FLUSH WITH CASH.

WE HAVE A BIG, HUGE RAINY DAY FUND THAT'S OVERFLOWING.

THIS TAX CUT APPEARS TO BE EVENLY DISTRIBUTING.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING $3.1 MILLION BACK?

>> YOU COULD ARGUE THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.

>> WE AGREE.

>> THAT IT'S A WONDERFUL POLITICAL STATEMENT.

IT'S A WAY FOR THE REPUBLICANS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO UNITE BEHIND.

AND THE REAL CHALLENGE HERE IS IF, IN FACT, YOU CAN SUPPORT OTHER PUBLIC SERVICES AT A LEVEL THAT REALLY IS MORE THAN SUFFICIENT, AND YOU STILL HAVE A SURPLUS, THEN IN FACT YOU CAN SAY, WHY NOT DO A -- NOW, THE OTHER ARGUMENT WOULD BE, KEEP IT IN THE RAINY DAY FUND.

SOMEDAY THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO GO DOWN THE TUBES AGAIN, SO HAVE MORE MONEY THERE.

RIGHT NOW I DON'T HEAR A LOT OF PEOPLE ARGUING AGAINST THIS ON THE GROUNDS THAT YOU'RE SHORT CHANGING OTHER PUBLIC SERVICES.

THE HOUSE WILL INSIST ON MORE MONEY BEING SPENT FOR CERTAIN SERVICES, AND I ASSUME THEY'LL COME UP WITH A COMPROMISE.

WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT ALL THESE THINGS HAVE GOTTEN LOADED TOGETHER INTO THE BUDGET.

SO YOU HAVE ACTUALLY THE PRIMARY AND SECONDARY STUFF IN THE BUDGET AND THE HIGHER EDUCATION.

THIS IS SORT OF A REFLECTION OF SENDING MORE POWER TO COLUMBUS.

>> MARK, SHOULD THE POLICY BE IN THIS BUDGET?

SENATOR HUFFMAN SAID IT'S FOR CONVENIENCE.

WE PUT IT IN HERE AND WE DON'T HAVE TO COME BACK IN AUGUST OR THE FALL OR WHEN LAWMAKERS ARE RUNNING AGAIN, PREPARING FOR THE PRIMARY.

IS THAT THE RAY TO RUN THE RAILROAD?

>> TRADITIONALLY THIS ALL GETS DONE IN THE BUDGET, WHICH GETS DONE IN ODD-NUMBERED YEARS FOR A REASON.

BECAUSE PEOPLE IN THE LEGISLATURE ARE RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

THIS HAPPENS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

IT'S NOTHING NEW, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF FOCUS ON THE STATEHOUSE RIGHT NOW.

THEY CAN GET A LOT DONE FAST, AND THEY'RE CLEANING UP PORTIONS OF THE REVISED CODE THAT NEED TO BE CLEANED UP.

IT'S GOING TO BE A GIGANTIC BILL THAT FINALLY PASSES ON JUNE 30th.

>> THERE ARE CERTAIN ISSUES THAT PROBABLY DESERVE MORE INDEPENDENT ATTENTION, INCLUDING ISSUES RELATED TO PRIMARY AND SECONDARY AND HIGHER EDUCATION RATHER THAN LUMPING THEM ALL TOGETHER.

I THINK SENATOR HUFFMAN, WHO IS A VERY SKILLED POLITICIAN, WHEN YOU ASK HIM, WHY ARE WE DOING THIS?

PART OF THE ANSWER IS BECAUSE WE CAN AND IT IS MORE CONVENIENT.

BUT THAT CONVENIENCE IS NOT THE THING THAT SHOULD DOMINATE HOW YOU HANDLE CERTAIN MAJOR POLICY ISSUES.

>> JO, THE GOVERNOR DOES HAVE A LINE ITEM VETO POWER.

ANY INDICATION FROM HIM -- IT'S EARLY STILL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE FINAL PRODUCT.

ANY INDICATION FROM HIM OR HIS OFFICE WHICH ITEMS HE DOES NOT LIKE RIGHT NOW?

>> NO, HE'S NOT GIVING ANY INDICATION OUTWARDLY.

BUT IF YOU WATCH, YOU CAN SEE HIS BUDGET AND SEE WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO HIM.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS HE'S GOING TO BE LOOKING FOR IN THE BUDGET.

AND IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT GOES AGAINST THOSE POLICIES, THOSE PRIORITIES FOR HIM, YEAH, LINE ITEM VETO MIGHT BE.

>> HE'S PART OF THAT NEGOTIATING PROCESS.

IT IS THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

>> IT'S LIKE A CHESS GAME.

I LOVE THE FACT THE GOVERNOR HAS THE LINE ITEM VETO, BUT HE HAS TO REMEMBER WHEN HE COMES BACK TO THE LEGISLATURE FOR HIS FUTURE LEGISLATION, IF HE'S LINED OUT ONE PARTICULAR SENATOR'S IMPORTANT BILL, THAT COMES BACK AROUND.

SO IT'S A CAREFUL DECISION EVERY GOVERNOR HAS TO MAKE.

>> I NOTICED THAT MATT DOLAN BECAME A MAJOR SPOKESMAN FOR THE BUDGET, AND HE'S DESCRIBING IT AS A CONSERVATIVE BUDGET, AND HE'S ALSO A CANDIDATE IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY FOR THE U.S. SENATE.

SO I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD POLITICS ON HIS PART TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH A BUDGET THAT WILL BE VERY -- REPUBLICANS WILL BE HAPPY WITH.

>> OHIO LAWMAKERS ARE REACTING IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INDICTMENT FOR HOARDING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AT HIS FLORIDA HOME.

DEMOCRATS LIKE SENATOR SHERROD BROWN AND JOISZ JOYCE BEATTY SAID NOTHING.

GOVERNOR DeWINE SAID JUSTICE WILL BE DONE, AND HE NOTED HE HAS NOT ENDORSED ANYONE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

CONGRESSMAN MIKE CAREY ACCUSED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OF WEAPONIZING THE GOVERNMENT AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND SENATOR J.D.

VANCE TOOK THAT A STEP FURTHER.

>> SO I'VE ANNOUNCED TODAY THAT I WILL BE HOLDING ALL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NOMINEES THAT MERRICK GARLAND WILL USE IF CONFIRMED NOT TO ENFORCE THE LAW IMPARTIALLY, WHICH IS HIS DUTY, BUT CLEARLY TO HARASS HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

I THINK WE HAVE TO GRIND THIS DEPARTMENT TO A HALT UNTIL MERRICK GARLAND PROMISES TO DO HIS JOB AND STOP GOING AFTER HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

>> LARGELY SYMBOLIC.

MARK, YOU'VE WORKED FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN YOUR CAREER.

IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO, POLITICIZING THIS AND ACCUSING THEM OF POLITICIZING IT?

>> EVERYONE IN D.C. IS ACCUSING EACH OTHER OF POLITICIZING THINGS WHILE THEY ALL POLICE -- POLITICIZE THINGS.

IF DONALD TRUMP BROKE THE LAW, HE'LL HAVE TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT'S JUST TRUE.

AND THAT THE LEADER OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT -- JOE BIDEN RUNS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT -- HAPPENS TO INDICT HIS MOST LIKELY OPPONENT IN THE NEXT ELECTION, A LOT OF AMERICANS THINK THAT LOOKS LIKE A BANANA REPUBLIC.

>> HE'S ON TAPE TELLING SOMEONE, WHO IS NOT CLEARED TO SEE THEM, A CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT.

ACTUALLY HIS WORDS ARE, HEY, LOOK AT THIS.

SO SHOULD HE BE EXEMPT BECAUSE HE'S RUNNING FOR OFFICE?

>> NOT AT ALL.

WHEN I PROSECUTE CASES AND I HAND UP INDICTMENTS, I HOPE THE PRESS REPORTS ON THEM WITH SUCH ZEAL BECAUSE INDICTMENTS ARE SIMPLY ALLEGATIONS FROM A GRAND JURY.

BUT I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE HIS DEFENSE.

I DO KNOW THAT HILLARY CLINTON OF COURSE WAS GIVEN A PASS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ELECTION FOR DIGITAL RECORDS THAT JIM COMEY HIMSELF SAID PROBABLY OUR ENEMIES GOT ACCESS TO THEM.

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID IN HIS PRESS CONFERENCE.

NO ONE SAID THAT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

SO WITHOUT RESPECT TO THE LEGAL CASE, WHICH REALLY OUGHT TO BE HEARD IN DUE COURSE, AMERICANS ARE RIGHT TO QUESTION WHETHER THE BIDEN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OUGHT TO BE TARGETING THEIR MOST LIKELY POLITICAL OPPONENT.

>> THAT IS THE MOST POLITICAL INTERPRETATION, WHICH IS WHAT EVERYBODY'S DOING THESE DAYS.

I THINK ACTUALLY THE BRILLIANT PERSON HERE IS DONALD TRUMP.

HE HAS BEHAVED OUTRAGEOUSLY AND BEHAVED ILLEGALLY AND STILL REMAINS TO BE CONVICTED AND ALL OF THAT.

BUT HE KNOWS BY GOING AFTER THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND BIDEN, HE WILL, IN FACT, PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON LEADING REPUBLICANS TO, IN FACT, ENDORSE YOU, SAY YOU'RE BEING TREATED UNFAIRLY, WHICH THEN SENDS A CUE TO A LOT OF GRASSROOTS PEOPLE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS BEING VICTIMIZED HERE.

THAT ENHANCES HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

I REALLY DO THINK HERE THAT A FEW REPUBLICANS ARE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, ASHA HUTCHINSON AND CHRIS CHRISTIE AND, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY ELSE WERE NEGATIVE ABOUT TRUMP, BUT ALL THE OTHERS ARE REALLY REINFORCING DONALD TRUMP.

AND EVEN WHEN THEY SAY BOTH THINGS, WHEN THEY SAY, WELL, HE'S GUILTY, BUT IT SHOULD GO TO COURT, AND HIS GUILTY OR INNOCENCE WILL BE DETERMINED.

BUT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS WEAPONIZING.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE HEARING POOR DONALD TRUMP, AND ALL THAT'S DOING IS POLL NUMBERS ARE GOING UP IN REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES.

>> IT'S TRUE.

>> JO, EVERY CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE IN 2024, ESPECIALLY REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE, IS GOING TO BE ASKED, SHOULD DONALD TRUMP BE PARDONED IF HE IS -- EVEN BEFORE HE'S CONVICTED A LA RICHARD NIXON?

THAT'S GOING TO BE A MAJOR ISSUE FOR THESE FOLKS TO HAVE TO ANSWER.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT THIS REMINDS ME A LOT, OF SPIRO AGNEW AND THE WAY THE PUBLIC REACTED AROUND THAT.

IT'S LIKE PEOPLE JUMPED IN WITH POLITICAL -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS A POLITICAL THING, AND THEN LATER WE FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING TO IT, AND HE RESIGNED.

BUT THE THING IS THAT, YOU KNOW, HOW PEOPLE PERCEIVE THIS IS IMPORTANT.

AND PEOPLE ARE NOT SITTING THERE READING THAT INDICTMENT.

YOU SAID IT EARLIER.

WE READ THINGS.

WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

INDICATIVE.

AND SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE RELYING ON WHATEVER IS BEING SAID BY PEOPLE THAT THEY RESPECT.

>> MARK, I RECENTLY LISTENED TO A PODCAST CALLED CROOKED CITY.

IT TRACES THE YOUNGSTOWN -- >> YEAH.

>> IT'S GREAT.

JIM TRAFFIC ANT WON THE FIRST TIME BUT HE WAS CONVICTED IN FEDERAL COURT THE SECOND TIME.

WHEN HE WAS CHARGED BOTH TIMES, HE SAID THE GOVERNMENT'S ABOUT TO GET ME.

IT'S A WITCH HUNT.

AND HE DEMONIZED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

IS THAT NOT DANGEROUS TO OUR SYSTEM?

>> WELL, IT'S ONLY DANGEROUS IF IT'S NOT TRUE, RIGHT?

BECAUSE WE REALLY DO KNOW THERE WAS NOT A RUSSIAN MEMO THAT SAID DONALD TRUMP WAS COLLUDING WITH RUSSIA.

WE KNOW NOW FOR SURE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

YET THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FBI RAN AROUND AND TOLD JUDGES THAT, IN FACT, IT WAS HAPPENING, WHICH WERE LIES.

SO JUST LIKE THE CHURCH COMMISSION IN THE '70s CAME IN AND SAID SOMETHING'S WRONG IN THE CIA, WE NEED TO MAKE SOME REFORMS.

THE FBI, WHICH I SERVED WITH AT THE DOJ, THERE NEEDS TO BE A MODERN-DAY CHURCH COMMISSION.

>> REMEMBER EAST PALESTINE?

THE NATIONAL NEWS CREWS HAVE LEFT.

NATIONAL POLITICIANS HAVE LEFT.

BUT THE CONTAMINATION REMAINS NEAR THE SITE OF THAT TOXIC TRAIN DERAILMENT AND FIRE.

FEAR OF THE CONTAMINATION'S HEALTH EFFECTS REMAINS AS WELL.

SOME FAMILIES HAVE NOT RETURNED TO THEIR HOMES.

OTHERS ARE HAVING THEIR KIDS LIVE ELSEWHERE FOR NOW.

THE STATE OF OHIO HAS ANNOUNCED HELP FOR BUSINESSES AFFECTED BY THE ACCIDENT.

THE STATE WILL OFFER ZERO-INTEREST FORGIVABLE LOANS TO BUSINESSES HURT BY THE DERAILMENT.

THE LOANS COULD BE AS MUCH AS $1 MILLION.

BUSINESSES WOULD NOT HAVE TO REPAY THEM IF THEY USE THE MONEY FOR BUSINESS EXPENSES LIKE EMPLOYEE SALARIES, RENT, OR DECONTAMINATION.

HERB ASHER, GENEROUS PROGRAM BY THE STATE.

YOU CAN ARGUE IT'S VERY WORTHWHILE, BUT SHOULDN'T NORFOLK SOUTHERN BE OFFERING THESE LOANS OR OFFERING THE AID, WHICH THEY ARE SOMEWHAT?

>> YES.

I WOULD HOPE NORFOLK SOUTHERN WOULD STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND BE MORE GENEROUS IN A VARIETY OF WAYS.

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS UNLIKE A LOT OF OTHER TRAGEDIES OR CALAMITIES OR WHATEVER, THE NEWS MEDIA, NATIONAL, AND STATE ARE ALL PRESENT.

THEN FOUR DAYS LATER, THEY'VE FORGOTTEN ABOUT EVERYTHING.

MY SENSE IS THERE'S MORE ONGOING COVERAGE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN EAST PALESTINE, AND THANK GOODNESS FOR ONLINE AND TV AND NEWSPAPERS.

SO THEY'VE NOT GONE OUT OF OUR MEMORIES.

WE STILL ARE SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND THE STATE DOES SEEM TO BE STEPPING UP, AND THAT REMINDS US THE PROBLEM HAS NOT BEEN SOLVED.

SO IT'S A TRAGEDY, BUT I THINK IT'S NOT A TRAGEDY THAT WE'VE PUT OUT OF OUR MINDS.

>> JO, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

USUALLY FOLKS HELICOPTER INTO A PLACE.

THEN THE NEXT TRAGEDY COMES AND WE MOVE ON TO THAT.

>> I THINK THIS ONE HAS A LITTLE MORE STAYING POWER BECAUSE THERE ARE BIGGER ISSUES HERE.

WE KNOW THAT THE TRAIN DERAILMENTS ARE NOT JUST EAST PALESTINE.

THEY'RE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

AND SO PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT WHAT'S BEING DONE TO ACTUALLY FIX THE PROBLEM.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE SEEING ARE A LOT OF RESIDENTS THERE WHO ARE GOING TO STAY ENGAGED.

THEY WERE DOWN AT THE STATEHOUSE THIS WEEK TALKING ABOUT EAST PALESTINE AND WHAT THEY NEED OUT OF IT.

AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HEAR A LOT FROM THEM.

>> THIS COULD HAVE A LONGER LASTING EFFECT.

THINK ABOUT A CATTLE FARMER.

THERE'S CATTLE UP THERE.

IF YOUR HERD IS CONTAMINATED AND PERHAPS IF YOU HAVE BULLS, WHO YOU SELL TO BE ABLE TO MAKE NEW COWS, YOUR ENTIRE LINE COULD BE GONE.

THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY NOT JUST FOR YOUR CURRENT HEAD OF CATTLE BUT FOR FUTURE AS WELL.

>> THIS LOAN PROGRAM HELPS BUSINESSES.

THERE IS SOME HELP FOR RESIDENTS AS WELL.

BUT SHOULD HOMEOWNERS BE AVAILABLE TO THESE LOAN PROGRAMS IF THEY BUY A NEW HOUSE BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THAT ZONE?

>> I THINK HOMEOWNERS -- AND I'M NOT A BANKER.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT HOMEOWNERS, IF THE VALUE OF THEIR PROPERTY HAS DECLINED DRAMATICALLY BECAUSE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE DERAILMENT, SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE TO MAKE THEM WHOLE.

IF NOT WHOLE, AT LEAST LET THEM KNOW THEY STILL HAVE AN ASSET IN THEIR HOME.

>> DO YOU EXPECT THE ATTENTION TO CONTINUE, OR SIX MONTHS FROM NOW ARE WE GOING TO FORGET, DO YOU THINK, JO?

>> I THINK IT WILL CONTINUE ON SOME LEVEL.

IT MIGHT NOT BE AS PREVALENT AS TODAY.

BUT I THINK IT WILL CONTINUE, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE IN EAST PALESTINE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE IT CONTINUES.

>> DO WE HAVE TO GIVE SOME CREDIT TO DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ATTENTION TO ELEVATING RURAL AMERICA?

>> THIS IS WHY IT'S AN INTERESTING STORY FOR MANY PEOPLE BECAUSE THIS IS A LONG FORGOTTEN SEGMENT OF OUR COUNTRY, AND IT'S A SMALLER STORY THAT TELLS A BIGGER STORY.

THESE PEOPLE WERE MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS WHEN THIS TRAIN DERAILS, AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE HAS BEEN CHANGED FOREVER.

>> FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE POLITICIANS FLOCKED THERE, WHICH IS GOOD NEWS FOR THE RESIDENTS TO HELP THEM COPE WITH THIS.

>>> TIME NOW FOR OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

MARK WEAVER.

>> I SAW AN INTERESTING NEWS ITEM THIS WEEK THAT YOUR VIEWERS WILL LOVE.

ESG, ENVIRONMENTAL SOCIAL GOVERNANCE, IS SUPPOSED TO HELP YOU DECIDE WHAT COMPANIES TO INVEST IN.

SOME OF THE HIGHEST SCORING COMPANIES ON THAT SCALE, TOBACCO COMPANIES, SCORING IN THE 90s ON 100% SCALE.

SO PERHAPS NOT AS ETHICAL AS MAYBE THEY SEEM.

>> HERB?

>> I THINK EAST PALESTINE WILL HAVE THE LONG-TERM BENEFIT OF MAKING US SENSITIVE TO WHAT'S HAPPENED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE, WHETHER IT'S CHEMICAL DUMPING IN STREAMS IN SOUTHEASTERN OHIO OR OTHER KINDS OF INCIDENTS.

THAT I THINK WILL BE A POSITIVE BENEFIT DOWN THE ROAD.

>> JO INGLES.

>> I THINK THE PLACE TO WATCH THIS COMING WEEK WILL BE THE OHIO HOUSE.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF CONTROVERSIAL LEGISLATION COMING THROUGH THERE.

I WOULD BET THERE WILL BE PROTESTS, AND I WOULD BET THERE WILL BE THINGS WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WILL HAPPEN.

SO ALL EYES SHOULD BE THERE.

>> TRANSGENDER RIGHTS OBVIOUSLY FRONT AND CENTER AT THE HOUSE THIS WEEK.

THIS WEEK, MEDIA OUTLETS ASKED FOR AN EXCEPTION TO THE FEDERAL COURT BAN ON CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM TO DOCUMENT THE TRUMP ARRAIGNMENT.

IF THERE WAS EVER A CASE WHERE CAMERAS WERE ESSENTIAL TO THE PUBLIC'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE, THE UNITED STATES VERSUS DONALD J. TRUMP IS IT.

LET'S HOPE FUTURE PROCEEDINGS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO SEE, NOT JUST THOSE IN THE COURTROOM AND THE OVERFLOW ROOMS, WHICH ARE SERVED BY A CAMERA.

IMAGINE THAT.

>>> THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION ON FACEBOOK.

YOU CAN WATCH US ANYTIME ON YOUR TIME ON OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.ORG/COTR, OR ON THE PBS VIDEO APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

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