(upbeat music) - [Mike] Some expressed hope for a turning point after the guilty verdict in the police killing of George Floyd, but another death, the shooting of a 16 year old girl by a Columbus police officer, has laid bare the continuing struggle over policing in minority communities.

There's a renewed push for a law to compel training accountability and oversight of police, but does it go far enough?

And COVID 19 cases appear to be leveling off, but demand for vaccines is waning too.

Ideas is next.

- [Narrator] Brought to you by Westfield, offering insurance to protect what's yours, grow your business and achieve your dreams.

(soft music) (upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to "Ideas," I'm Mike MacIntyre.

A jury on Tuesday delivered a guilty verdict on all charges against former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the death of George Floyd.

And while that was a relief to those who feared that what the nation saw on video would somehow fail to prevail in court, the feeling was fleeting, as the verdict was coming in a Columbus police officer answering a call found himself in the midst of a scuffle, in which a 16 year old girl wielded a knife.

He shot and killed Ma'Khia Bryant.

The disturbing episode played out in body camera video that was released hours later.

The shooting has prompted renewed calls from the governor for the legislature to take up police reform by passing a law, increasing accountability, training and oversight.

In pandemic news, COVID-19 cases in the state are leveling off after weeks trending upward.

But at the same time, the demand for vaccines appears to be leveling off too.

That's not a good thing, as most Ohioans still haven't gotten their first shot.

Joining me to discuss these stories and more Ideastream managing producer for health Marlene Harris Taylor, Statehouse News Bureau chief Karen Kasler and Conor Morris, a report for America corps member with the Northeast Ohio Solutions Journalism Collaborative.

Let's get ready to round table.

Marlene here is mayor Andrew Gunther at a press conference the day after on Wednesday.

- Bottom line, did Ma'Khia Bryant need to die yesterday?

- So there's the question.

- That is a question, did she need to die?

Of course she did not need to die.

The circumstances were so unruly when the officer rolled up.

The officer had a split second to decide what to do.

He rolls up, he sees some people fighting.

I watched the video, even though I really didn't wanna watch the video Mike, I'm kinda tired of watching these videos.

- Its so disturbing too.

- But I watched the video just so I could engage in this conversation today.

And I think about if I put myself in the shoes of that officer, I don't know a lot he really could have done differently with what he had in front of him that day.

So I don't know if this shooting fits in with some of the other shootings that people are concerned about in terms of excessive force on the part of police.

But what it does fit into Mike is this narrative of when African-Americans call the police for help, they don't always get help.

And sometimes they end up the victims.

And now we have the 16 year old girl who's gone, who shouldn't be gone.

There's an investigation going on.

And we should say that because we don't know all the details right now.

- Right.

- We don't know why she was outside, like after she called the police, was she in the house when she called the police?

Did she go back outside and engage with the other people?

- Was she even the one that called the police, is that for sure?

- We don't know that for sure.

And that what we were told that she was the one who called the police.

So that's what I'm saying, there's so many details on this one still to come out.

So, it's really hard to talk about that one intelligently until we have more information, but I can tell you the feeling that it evokes, the emotion that it evokes and it does kind of fit into this terrible, terrible long week.

'Cause I got to tell you, Mike, after the verdict was read on the George Floyd situation, I was in my house and I was thinking that like everybody else, I'm paying attention to this.

I'm involved in it, I'm watching it.

But I had no idea how much stress I was holding in my body as we waited to see what was gonna happen, 'cause the country, everybody was on edge.

We didn't know what was gonna happen, if the officer Chauvin was not found guilty.

So that next day, Wednesday, when I let all that stress out, I was exhausted.

And I mean, there's good tire and then there's exhausted.

And I know we're all tired at times, but there was this extra layer of exhaustion of physical and emotional exhaustion because I had finally had a chance to let all that out.

And then now we're dealing with this other shooting in Columbus.

- When you mentioned sort of like that all of America might've been holding the stress, but it's really highly different for you than it is for me, being a black woman, being an African-American person.

When you see these incidents, even the ones here where you said, "Listen, we've gotta see what the circumstances are."

And in fact, a safety director, also a black man, Dr. Ned Pettus in Columbus said, "Under any circumstances, it's a horrendous tragedy, but the video requires us to pause and take a close look at the sequence of events and wait until the results of an independent investigation."

So he's making that point, but regardless, it's another one of those incidents.

And it seems like we see one of these.

There was just one last week in Cleveland, we let off our show talking about.

Every couple of days.

- It's every couple of days.

And even since the trial has ended, this wasn't the only shooting.

There's been some shootings in other cities that have happened that people are concerned about.

And it's feels like there's a constant drum beat of these.

And what I wonder Mike is, how many of these will it take before the society at large says enough, right?

What is the tipping point going to be?

I don't know that we're there yet.

I don't know if the majority of America says, "This problem is so huge, that we need to have real police reform."

There's a number of people who are pushing for police reform, but it reminds me of when the Me Too movement started and there were women coming out and saying "This happened to me and that happened to me."

And initially people were a little skeptical and not believing them.

And then after one woman after another woman and it got to a point that there was just so many women saying that it just couldn't be ignored anymore.

So I'm wondering how many black and brown bodies have to die, before the country, the nation is at that point where we say, "Enough is enough.

Let's look at what we're doing.

Let's look at how police are engaging in these situations and not taught to deescalate from the beginning."

Because we've all learned a lot about police training through the trial and through other incidents.

And we know that police are trained to take out the threat.

They're not trained to start with the lowest level of engagement.

- Right.

- Why not?

- Conor Morris, in this circumstance there is a situation where someone has a knife in another circumstance it might be an officer thought they were pulling a gun and they are pulling a taser and they pulled a gun.

There are many of these individual different discussions to have, but the broader point that Marlene is bringing up in one that seems to be a national conversation now is the whole idea of how police interact in these communities.

And when you look at that what is your thought about for example, in Cleveland where there's a consent decree that is supposed to address these types of issues.

And there are many that are concerned that enough is not getting done.

We've been having conversations here via the United Way and the NAACP about the consent decree in Cleveland.

But what about that thought about reform and how it's playing out in cities like Cleveland?

- Yeah, sure, if you would, attend some of the rallies over the last year after George Floyd was murdered, confidence in police is definitely at an all time low.

I was at a rally for Desmond Franklin, he was a Cleveland resident who was killed by an off duty police officer last summer in Cleveland.

And there was a big rally more than a thousand people.

It was apparent from everyone at that rally that people were...

They don't trust the police.

They don't really, a lot of them are not gonna be calling the police probably if they've got concerns.

But I mean, there are still plenty of people that they do still back "The Blue" and for them, a lot of these cases don't change their mind.

We've even seen some high-profile conservatives say that the verdict was incorrect, with the Chauvin trial.

But as Marlene mentioned, there's always gonna be this kind of gamut of worries and concerns that people of color are gonna need to navigate when they're considering whether to call the police.

So there's been a lot of talk over the last couple of years about community policing.

So like the concept of community policing, it's kind of this idea of police being part of the community they serve.

They're not just showing up when something is going wrong and the evidence isn't really there yet to suggest that that's the best way to go about policing necessarily.

There was a 2014 study that I read just recently in the journal of experimental criminology, the kind of the main takeaway was that these community oriented policing strategies, they've got a positive effect on citizens, satisfaction, perceptions of disorder, and legitimacy of police, but there's a limited effect on crime and fear of crime.

So, definitely a lot to talk about there, for sure.

And I think every city across the country is having a conversation about that so.

- Karen, let's talk about how this might prompt or it is already prompting a push for reform.

I don't know if that will actually prompt reform there's legislation aimed at police reforms that is not yet introduced.

We do have an idea of what's being proposed though.

- Yeah, this is legislation that governor Mike DeWine talked about in his press conference this week.

Where he started off with the situation that happened in Columbus and the death of the killing of Ma'Khia Bryant and said that it's time for some police reform actions to be taken.

There's a bill that was proposed last year by a representative Phil Plummer who's a former Montgomery County sheriff and Cindy Abrams Who's a former Cincinnati police officer.

That bill did not go forward.

They're gonna reintroduce a bill that's similar to that.

It's a police reform bill creating a police licensing board.

It would increase officer training requirements.

It require independent investigations of police shootings and it would set up state level use of force and disciplinary action databases.

And that's the bill that DeWine is working with Plummer and Abrams on with the goal of trying to deal with some of this.

Also in the state budget, DeWine has $10 million for body cameras and $15 million for police training.

So there's certainly, this is a topic that's been talked about a lot.

I mean, here in Columbus, we've had Andre Hill, Casey Goodson, those are just two of the names that come immediately to mind when it comes to police shootings.

And, so these are situations that we've seen before.

So to get this moving again, I guess, is DeWine's goal certainly.

And I mean, these are two Republican legislators with strong law enforcement backgrounds, but apparently they're not talking to democratic leaders, the Ohio Legislative Black Caucus, Stephanie House the Cleveland representative, who's the head of that has said that she has not been talking to either of these representatives about this.

- What about input from communities of color?

- Well, I think that that's where the question is, if they're not reaching out to the Ohio Legislative Black Caucus, then are they reaching out to people of color and communities of color?

And I mean, as I understand it, the legislation that Plummer and Abrams are working on was put together with input from outside groups.

But of course, when you starting to talk about major reforms and trying to really deal with these issues front and center, then obviously getting communities involved would really be incredibly helpful.

And really it's almost necessary if you wanna change what's happening on the ground.

Certainly talking to people who are on the ground, who are are living through this, I would think would be the best way to handle it.

(upbeat music) - As the Ma'khia Bryant tragedy played out in Columbus, the nation was riveted by the verdict and the trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the killing of George Floyd.

A jury took less than 11 hours to find Chauvin guilty of unintentional, second degree murder, third degree murder and second degree manslaughter.

Could it be a turning point or is it or do you see it that way, or?

- It absolutely could be.

I think the vice-president my Sorority sister use the word inflection point.

We're at an inflection point in this country and we absolutely are.

But the question is, just to be real frank, Mike you've said it yourself, where is the white community on this?

That's what's going to make the difference.

I think the African-American community has made it very very clear where they are on this.

They're calling for reforms.

Our young people are in the streets.

The question is where is the white community?

Where's where are the folks in power?

What are they thinking about this?

And does the nation as a whole, are there enough people in the country who feel like it's time to finally move on this?

I hope it is.

(upbeat music) - A new gun measure sponsored by Republican representative Matt Dolan of Chagrin falls would temporarily take firearms from a person, a judge determines to be a risk to themselves or the community.

It's not quite what governor DeWine has proposed and not enough for Democrats.

Karen, is this basically a red flag law?

- Pretty much yes.

And it's interesting because Senator Dolan was the sponsor of governor Mike DeWine, so-called strong Ohio proposal after the date and mass shootings.

Which had things in there, like an expansion of background checks for private gun sales, increased penalties for mishandling firearms, adding warrant information into state databases.

None of that is in this bill.

This is really, as Dolan says, "It's narrowly tailored to deal with people who are suffering from mental illness or emotional disturbances."

So it is a red flag law.

But as if you were listening to "NPR" this morning, there was a story about the red flag law in Indiana and how that did not prevent what happened at the FedEx facility in Indianapolis.

- [Mike] Right.

- And so there are some questions about whether red flag laws really do what people who sponsored them hope that they will do.

And so I think that's gonna be a lot of questions, but I believe this was pretty carefully crafted to try to get it through the legislature, because it was clear when Dolan proposed Dwayne's gun regulations last session that went absolutely nowhere.

So I think he's trying a different approach at this point.

(upbeat music) - Public health experts are closely watching the rise in COVID 19 variants and the vaccine rollout.

Ending the pandemic hinges on vaccinations outpacing the virus and its variants.

Ohio cases of COVID-19 leveled off after moving upward for weeks.

But also leveling off this week, the rate of vaccinations and that's concerning.

Marlene, your team looked into this slowing down on vaccine rates in Northeast, Ohio.

What did they find?

- Yeah, our health reporter Lisa Ryan did a really good report on this this week.

The good news is Lisa found that locally here in Cuyahoga County and Summit County, our vaccination rate is slightly higher than the state number is around 40%.

But then when you get into some rural areas of Northeast Ohio, Astra Beulah comes to mind.

The number, the rate vaccination rate is lower than the state average.

So, people are concerned and they're thinking, the health officials she spoke with said, "It's time for them to shift gears."

They're gonna have to get away from the mass vaccination sites and get out into specific communities where they need to work on increasing the numbers.

And they talked about doing things like holding clinics at mosques and a Buddhist temples.

And working with community partners who have an in, I mean I read yesterday that the Word Church, which is a huge mega church on the East side of Cleveland, they offered a walk-in clinic yesterday.

I just saw it on Twitter up until seven o'clock.

That's the way they have to go.

They have to stop making people sign up and just be able to walk in.

- And speaking of churches in underserved communities who are trying to get people vaccinated, Conor, you have a story for Northeast Ohio Solution Journalism Collaborative that went up on ideastream.org just this morning.

A number of the other sites are also carrying that information.

That there are churches that are really just going all out to make sure that their congregants get vaccinated.

- Yeah, thank you.

So, Marlene made a great point.

I think that the pivot needs to be kind of bringing the vaccine to where people are and feel more comfortable.

So the Greater Cleveland Congregations interfaith collaborative, they've been hosting vaccination clinics at several historically black churches up here.

And they've got some really great data they shared with us suggesting that about 90% in some cases of the people getting vaccinated at their clinics are black.

You compare that county-wide, only about 20% of the black population in Cuyahoga County has been vaccinated, had that first dose anyway, and compared to 45% of white people.

So that discrepancy is there and that's a national discrepancy too, but they're seeing quite a bit of success with these clinics at these churches and Marlene that's a great point you made about The Word Church.

That's a place where a lot of people go to church and the county and the city both have partnered with them to host vaccine clinics there.

I just saw, I think last week it was that Cuyahoga County hosted a vaccine clinic at the Islamic Center in Cleveland.

I can't remember the exact name of it, but- - [Mike] It's called the Islamic Center of Cleveland.

(laughing) - Perfect, - Oh, there we go, perfect.

And I think that is a good, the whole idea kind of behind the piece was that these are trusted places where people can go.

It's just a very, I went to one of them and took some pictures and interviews with people it's just a very calm atmosphere.

Another big, important point too is that it's about outreach.

So, these churches are calling people directly.

They're sending them emails.

There's a big digital divide in Cuyahoga County.

Some people, a lot of the ways to get registered by vaccines are online really for a lot of the hospitals and clinics around here.

So, I think that there needs to be some very significant efforts to kind of cut through some of those barriers that people face.

- [Mike] Right.

- Mike, Oh, I'm sorry Conor.

I didn't mean to step on you there.

I just wanted to know there was a really interesting piece in The Cleveland Observer this week that the Cleveland documenters put together, where they actually went out and talked to people in several neighborhoods in Cleveland and just ask, "Are you vaccinated and why not?"

And so they captured these responses from people about why they're not vaccinated.

And one theme that emerged in that article was that people were afraid they were gonna get sick from the vaccine the next day.

And they didn't know if their employer would cover it or not.

So that's a big deal for a lot of people to have to miss work if they're sick.

So that's something that we as a society that the government can do something about.

And I think I heard that the White House has did something this week to move in that area, but that's one concrete thing we could do.

- Shout out to the documenters and to The Cleveland Observer and Ron Calhoun, the editor there, also members of the Northeast Ohio Solutions Journalism Collaborative.

Karen, did the governor talk a little bit about this leveling off of vaccines and how concerning that is, and also why that might be because we're talking here about outreach in the black community in Cleveland, but what we're seeing is the resistance is coming huge in places that aren't urban communities in Cleveland or elsewhere, but in places where there's a philosophical opposition and in some cases a political one.

- Yeah, I think studies have shown that one of the biggest groups in terms of people who and percentages of people who are vaccine hesitant, if you wanna use that term is a white Republican men.

And, so that's why there's been an effort to try to perhaps bring former president Trump into the conversation, make a PSA, talk a little bit about that.

And he was interviewed this week on Fox talking about that he would consider it, but still it's the idea of there's still a concern.

And there are some people I think even in that community who would not even be persuaded by him at this point, that there's a real distrust here.

And the medical community, the scientific community has tried very hard to overcome that, but it continues.

It persists, just go on Twitter anytime and you'll see it.

And that certainly makes it difficult to get to that herd immunity status, where we're talking about 70 to 80% of people expecting to be vaccinated, so that you can get to herd immunity.

We may not get there.

And that's a real concern, especially as all of these variants start popping up.

I was reading something last night about some variants found in a different part of the country that really are very vaccine resistant.

And so what do we do with these?

Because they're spreading through the population, because people are still doing things that are allowing the virus to spread and not getting the vaccines.

It's a real concern.

And DeWine has been pushing over and over that vaccines are safe.

He's tweeted that out, he's talked about it in his press conferences, but there's a real question here of how do we get to that herd immunity status?

If you still have big groups of people who are resisting the vaccine.

Now, when it comes to Ohio, the state tracks vaccination by total population.

So when the state says 38% of all Ohioans have started the vaccine process, that means all Ohioans.

That doesn't just mean the people who are vaccine eligible.

So it looks like Ohio's a little bit behind the nation, because the nation's now at 50% that started the first dose, or has at least started the process.

But once you start doing the numbers there, Ohio is a little bit closer to that.

It's about 49% of Ohioans who have at least who are vaccine eligible, who have at least gotten that first dose.

- [Mike] I mean if you are not counting children.

- But how do we get over that?

- [Mike] How do we get to the - - No, I mean, I get to that 49 by taking the census data and taking out people under 18- - [Mike] Right.

- Of course, that doesn't count for the 16 and 17 year olds who are eligible.

But once again, there's a big gap between 49% and getting to that 70 or 80% where herd immunity would kick in.

(upbeat music) - Cleveland takes center stage next week as host city for the National Football League draft.

The three-day event will be broadcast by ESPN.

It's seen as a chance for Cleveland's hospitality industry to bounce back after the economic damage caused by COVID-19.

But restaurants and bars are finding it tough to hire enough workers to staff up for the draft and for the expected rush, as COVID-19 restrictions are relaxed.

This is really interesting to me Conor, that we're having this conversation about how hard it is to fill these positions and what kind of demand there's gonna be.

When just a second ago, we were talking about the precautions and the people sort of ignoring the fact that COVID-19 still exists.

There are a couple of things that are gonna butt up against each other here.

- Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think we should think carefully about who these workers are, not always but sometimes they are younger.

Some of them might be waiting to get their full course of the vaccine potentially before they go back out into the workplace, they did get that stimulus check.

And so, in all honesty that doesn't, it's not gonna keep them going for very long maybe a month's worth of rent, food maybe two months, if you're budgeting carefully.

But for me, I'm a relatively young person.

I just got my vaccine on Wednesday, or my second dose of the vaccine on Wednesday.

I felt like garbage yesterday, by the way.

(laughing) - [Mike] Yeah, that happened to us too.

- [Marlene] It happened to us too Conor.

- But lots of people though, I think probably are waiting until they're fully vaccinated before they maybe go back and take some of those frontline worker restaurant jobs.

- And that's going to wrap up our show.

Coming up Monday on the Sound of Ideas, Rick Jackson leads a conversation about unpaid internships and how they contribute to inequity and a lack of diversity in the workplace.

I'm Mike MacIntyre, thanks for watching and stay safe.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] Brought to you by Westfield, offering insurance to protect what's yours, grow your business and achieve your dreams.