(bright music) - Welcome to "Forum 360", the show with a global view, but a local perspective.

I'm Sally Henning.

Our guest today is Dr. Barbara Turkeltaub, who went from hiding in attics and haystacks to speaking on the same stage as the Governor of Ohio.

She's a survivor, an eyewitness to the quintessential horrific world event, the Shoah, the Holocaust.

Barbara's a resident of Canton, Ohio.

She has a local view on these world, horrible world events, but she also, she also has a global perspective.

Welcome to "Forum 360", Dr. Turkeltaub.

- Thank you for having me.

I, as long as some people will deny the Holocaust, I'm going to speak, I'm going to teach, and I'm going to talk about it, because you have to, you have to do that so the history won't repeat itself, because it can, it can.

If the moment you forget, it can repeat itself.

I was a child when Nazis invaded my country, especially the place that I was born, it's Vilnius, which is very well known as Jerusalem of Lithuania, why?

Because there are many learning institutions in Vilnius, and- - Home of the Gaon.

- Pardon?

- Home of the Gaon.

- Yeah.

- Yes?

- Yeah, sure.

So a lot of Jewish people from Europe came to Vilnius to go to these learning institutions, and many, many famous Jewish people came out of there, you know?

(chuckles) I wish I can remember some of them.

(Sally and Barbara laughing) - You were born in 1934?

- Yes, yes.

- And you- - I was a little girl when the war started in 1939.

Nazis invaded Poland and Lithuania.

- What was your life like as a small child?

You were, you had family and friends?

- I had, I had, I had a wonderful family.

My mother, we had a nice house, and my mother was a seamstress, and she had about 20 girls that she was teaching them to sew, yes.

- To sew?

To be seamstresses?

- Yes, and my father, my father was a CPA, and he worked as a CPA.

- [Sally] He was an accountant?

- Yes.

- A CPA?

- That's right.

So our home, our household was very happy.

I had two older sisters, I had, and one younger, and I had a brother later on.

Later on, he was born.

Yeah.

(chuckles) (Sally laughing) It was hands full.

(Barbara and Sally laughing) - And you had aunts and uncles, and family?

- yeah, I had, sure, sure.

My father had four brothers and two sisters, and my mother, my mother came from deep Lithuania, from Kovno, so from a very Orthodox family, very Orthodox family, so I didn't know them very well, but I did know my grandma, because my mother was older from my grandma, 16 years.

They had children very early at that time, you know?

So I remember my grandma very well.

She didn't speak one word polish, but she spoke Lithuanian and Yiddish, mostly Yiddish was spoke at home, so... - So your life was comfortable and- - Very comfortable life, very comfortable life, very happy household, and my sisters were going to Hebrew schools there, and even my younger sisters spoke Hebrew fluently, you know, when we came later on, when we immigrated to Israel, we had no problems to speak the language, because we spoke, we Devonian, we were praying, you know, - You prayed, yeah.

- And, you know, and we spoke, we spoke Hebrew.

My mother spoke Yiddish, she didn't speak so well Hebrew.

She didn't speak any other language except Yiddish.

That's it, that's she most comfortable with.

- And when did things change?

What do you remember?

What are your earliest memories?

- The things began to change when Nazis invaded the Poland and Lithuania.

Very quickly, all sorts of proclamation came out that you don't buy from Jews, and Jews were not allowed to walk on the sidewalk, they had to walk where the gutter was, and we had to wear a yellow star, everyone, in front and in back, and they, and they- - But what happened if someone did not put a yellow star on their front?

- That, that was a terrible thing, because they were, then anybody were allowed to kill that person right there on the spot, and there was some Polish people that were not, didn't like us, so they did, they either they beat up that person that didn't wear the star, or they killed them, and nobody, nobody would do anything to that person.

As a matter of fact, they agree with that person that was killing, you know?

So it was a very frightening time.

It was a very frightening time.

I was so afraid all the time.

I didn't understand everything, what's going on.

I just didn't know what's going on, and why is it, because I, you know, my sister, for example, looked very Jewish.

She had black hair and dark eyes, she looked like my mom, but I looked like my dad, so with blue eyes and blonde hair, you know, so I was playing with the non-Jewish kids, and they didn't bother me, but they did bother my sister.

You know, they didn't like the way she looked, a Jew.

Polish people and Lithuanian didn't like us very much.

They didn't like us at all, so that's how it was.

- You played with the other kids.

Tell me about when you first noticed the effect of Nazis on children, things that you saw.

- Oh, I was, I was playing outside where there are a whole bunch of other kids were playing.

I was not included in that play, but I was sitting on the side- - Because you were a girl?

- Because I was a girl, that's right.

The boys were playing, and when they threw a ball, they threw a ball, they're playing ball, so that- - They're playing soccer or something.

- So, yeah, and the ball flew into a ditch close where I was sitting, so I run in, run into the ditch to pick up the ball.

At the same second, at the same second, we heard this huge rumbling noise above, and, - An airplane?

- And, yeah, and the airplanes were coming and throwing the bombs, so a few seconds later, a few minutes later, I don't know, I was holding the ball, and being in the ditch, I think it saved me, because where there was laughter, and a player, and a sunshine, all of a sudden, it was dark, and it was quiet, and none of the kids were alive anymore.

A few seconds later, somebody grabbed me, and took me out from the ditch, and that was my father.

I, he run in, and picked me up, and we ran away from there.

So that's what I remember, that's what I remember.

Many times, I try to forget, I try to forget, but right in the back of my mind, sometimes I dream about it, still scares, dreaming still...

Most of the people, when dream about their childhood, it's a happy thing.

Not for me, not for me, because at that time, that's what I dream.

That's what is in my mind and in my heart, so... - Did there come a time when you made other observations of people trying to harm children?

- The Nazis, Nazis tried try to, yeah, they would take by the collar, and would throw.

I saw, I saw one thing that I remember very well, and I wish I didn't remember that.

Where we were living, there was a large bridge, because we lived near a large river.

I even know the name of the river, it's Vilnia, and on that bridge, a little boy was walking, running, walking, and one of the Lithuanian people picked him up by the collar, like I said, and threw him over the bridge (Sally gasping) to the river.

That's a terrible thing.

I tell you, it's awful, and that's how it was.

Lithuanian people, most of them, Lithuanian and Polish people collaborated with Nazis when it came to the hatred for Jews.

- Was there a time when someone was trying to give candy to the Jewish children?

Can you talk about that?

- Yes.

- I'm sorry to ask those painful questions.

- You know, yeah, oh my gosh, yes, yeah, I...

I, when I was working in Menorah Park, they asked me to take a group of people to Washington.

I think it was Washington.

- [Sally] The Holocaust Museum in Washington.

- Holocaust Museum, yes, and I knew, I knew that there was...

I remember brown, brown, like buses, like a school bus over here, except they were kind of brown, and the windows were blocked with some kind of a thing, so I don't know, wood, some sort of wood, and so I was sitting behind a bush there, because I, right away, I didn't understand, but I always had a feeling that there is something happening, not very good, because I saw, I saw that somebody came from the bus, and talked to our teacher, sort of, teacher, and then they started to call names to go into the bus.

Somehow, I don't know, nobody told me, somehow in my heart, I felt that this is not a good thing, not, so I took my sister, and we were hiding behind the bush there, behind some vegetation, and when they were calling our name, and I closed her mouth, because she's younger then, she was three years old only, she was, you know, so I kept my hand on her mouth, so she won't say anything, or cry, or something, so until the bus was full.

So we, you know, and the bus drew, I mean, went away, and later, later, a few hours later, an hour, I cannot tell you the time.

I cannot tell you the time.

I cannot even tell you the season.

I know it, I only could recognize winter or summer, but you know, if it was, you know, before that, I can't tell you, because I really don't know.

So later that day, I don't know how much later, we heard this terrible cries of mothers were running to pick up their children from the bus.

Well, the children were no more there.

There were apparently guests in the bus, and the mothers, the cry of the mothers was unbelievable.

I cannot even begin to tell you what a terrible... And I was thanking God that we didn't go to the bus, and that was, you know, people say that there are no miracles.

I think there are miracles, because that was a miracle, because how would I know?

How would I know?

I saved my sister and myself, you know?

Somebody up there was watching over me, for what?

I don't know, but I guess maybe just to tell this story, so things like that won't happen to other groups of people.

- You're tuned into "Forum 360", I'm Sally Henning.

Our special guest today is Dr. Barbara Turkeltaub, and we're talking to Mrs. Turkeltaub about her experiences during the Shoah, during the Holocaust, and we were just talking about miracles.

You were talking about saving your sister.

Was there another time when the Nazis tried to give children poisoned candy?

- Sure, sure.

- Would you talk about that, please?

- Yeah, sure.

(chuckles) Well, that, well, in order for them to get into the buses, before that, that's when they were giving candies, you know?

The candies, it's still, when I go to Cleveland, I buy, they have the candies like that.

It's a little candy in the paper that a cow, there's a little cow, like, you know, it's a very good candy, but, and they- - Not this candy.

- Huh?

- But not this candy.

- No, not this.

(laughs) Yeah, so they were giving the candies so the kids would go, and because some kids couldn't get into the bus, they had to help them to the bus.

Those are terrible times, I mean, terrible times.

I try to forget sometimes, and you can't, you can't.

It's right in your, I don't know if there is a word, I don't know if there is a word in English language, or in any languages that can describe the Holocaust.

I don't think so.

How would you, how would you?

If you look in the dictionary, it'll show you that this distraction by fire.

Well, this is not only distraction by fire, it's a distraction, this full distraction of personality, of people, of their souls.

Their souls.

They, and they made a industry.

Nazis made industry from killing the people.

From their hair, they made mattresses, from little children that they killed, they made soaps.

(scoffs) It just unbelievable, unbelievable.

Sometimes I think to myself, how could it be, a country like Germany, that was the most advanced country in the world, most learned people in the world, in all areas, in science, in math, in everything, and that they would come to such, such evil, such evil thing, to do such thing.

They say it is Hitler.

Sure, it's Hitler, but Hitler himself could not do this by himself.

All the people around him, and the people that pretended that they don't do anything, they didn't do anything, they did, because by seeing what happening and being silent, you have contributed to the same thing.

If you see something is happening to a group of people, something bad is happening to a group of people because of the color of their skin, because the way they pray in different churches, or synagogues, or some other praying institutions, you know, if you see something like this happening, stand up, take your place, and speak against it.

You can help, you certainly can help.

You still can help, even now, even today, even today, if you see something like this happening, the group of people because of their color, or because of some kind of religion or something, or some kind of other differences, you have to speak up.

You have to stand up and take your place, and speak against the evil, because that's evil, that is evil.

Well, that's, you know, I don't know how best to describe.

- So tell me, so tell me about your husband, Joe Turkeltaub.

You met him after you were able to live, and you escaped, and you got to Israel?

- Yes, I, well, I met...

When we were in Lithuania, the area that we lived was liberated by Russian soldiers.

Among the Russian soldiers, there was a high, high officer, and I remember his name very well, Blumkin, Officer Blumkin.

He told my mother, "Mina, you, I'll help you around here "to get you a place where you can live, "but you should not stay here.

"You should get out from Lithuania.

"Just get out of here," and so he helped, he helped us to get out of Lithuania.

We came to Poland.

We came to Poland, well, it wasn't much better.

It was sort of little bit better, but my mother was afraid to stay in Poland, also, so she made all sorts of... She tried to get out of Poland to go to Israel, to go to Israel.

She had two brothers in Israel.

She was trying to get in touch with them, and because they didn't know that we were alive, even, they had no idea, but then when they did find out that we are alive, they helped us out out little bit, and we left Poland, and we went to Israel, and that was in 1950, I think.

I am not, I don't exactly remember, 1950, maybe before that, 1949, something like that.

Yeah, so we went to Israel, and in Israel, I'll tell you, we didn't have problems speaking the language, because we spoke before, and that's where our life began, you know?

It was not easy.

It was not easy, it was difficult.

- Your husband had lived through Auschwitz?

- Yeah, he, of course, he was in Auschwitz, together with Elie Wiesel, together with Elie Wiesel.

They were together, they're the same age.

- [Sally] They were in the same bunk.

- In the same, yeah, in the same barrack, in the same building, yeah.

So he had a reunion with the Elie Wiesel not too long ago, before he died.

It was very nice.

They compared the papers and stuff, you know, what they had, and so, yeah, he, my husband comes, we were not, but my husband comes from a wealthy family.

They have lumber yards, and that's where they have, that's where they have few houses there, and they lived in there, the lumber yards, and they have their houses where they lived, and he had a large family, also, larger than mine, and so they were all, they were all murdered.

The only two sisters that he have that were still alive, they were in Israel, because they left, they left Poland many years before the war as a pioneers, you know, so they were there in Israel, and that's why he, he went to Israel, immigrated to Israel.

- But everything of his home was destroyed?

- Pardon?

- Everything from his home, all their wealth, all their family?

- Everything was, everything was taken away.

He had, you know, he decided, not long ago, to go back to Poland so he can just see his home, and stuff where, you know, so, but he didn't go by himself.

Somebody told him not to go by yourself, so he went with Brother Francis, who was from Walsh University.

He was the dean there.

- [Sally] Of Walsh University?

- Yeah, Walsh University, so Brother Francis went- - [Sally] In Star County, Ohio?

- Yeah, so he went, so he went with, so he says, "I'm gonna go with you, Joe," and so he went to Poland with him, and there was in the little state that he comes from, Stopnica, so there's no hotel, so you have to stay with like, a bed and breakfast, something similar to this in one area, so, but Joe got up in the morning and went to his house where he, they have all the house, you know, and the lumber yard and everything.

So when he went there, they opened up the door.

Oh, and my husband looked exactly like his father, so they thought that this is his father, (laughs) and they looked at him, "What do you want?

"We thought you are dead, what do you want?

"That's not yours, get away, go, go," and so my husband says, "No, it's me," you know, and "I don't want anything, I just wanted "to see my house," you know?

- Just to see it.

- And "Nothing, nothing, nothing it's for you to see.

"Go away."

So when he came back, and he told Brother Francis how they treated him, so Brother Francis went with him, and when they found out that Brother Francis is such a high Brother, such a high priest, like, you know, oh, they apologize, and they told him, "Well, we can give you something from your home," and they gave him a spoon.

(Barbara laughing) - A spoon?

A spoon.

- Yeah.

- So you had moved to Canton, Ohio, - Yeah.

- Where you lived for many years.

- Yeah.

- Now, there came a time when you met Governor Kasich.

Would you tell us about that?

- Yeah.

- I mean, here, you're almost 90 years old, and you're still talking about the Holocaust, so tell us about your meeting with Governor Kasich.

- I, you know, I was speaking about the Holocaust everywhere I could, because, you know, I thought it needs to be spoken.

It needs to be taught, and Kasich, and I was, I don't remember exactly, (bottle snapping) I was invited to come to the state house, to his home, actually, to Governor Kasich- - [Sally] And he has said publicly that you are responsible for, inspired him - Yes, and he says, - To have the memorial - Because of this, - In this state.

- He says, because of this, "Barbara, I promise you "that we are going to build here on government property "a big memorial for the Holocaust, the ones that died, "So there will be forever memory for," you know, "they'll be forever memorized."

I'm not saying right.

- Memorialized.

- Memorialized, yeah.

- Remembered, always remembered, - Always will be remembered.

- And when they had that memorial, - And- - You were invited to speak at the dedication.

- I, I, I did not, to be very honest, Mr. Kasich, he is a politician, so I thought to myself, oh, he's a politician, he's saying that, but I don't believe that this is going to happen.

- But he did.

- But to the day that he promised, that's exactly what happened, you know?

And they invited me to come.

- [Sally] And you spoke?

- Yes, and to speak, and to, you know, to open the, to break the, yeah, the ribbon, you know, to, so... - And so what should parents tell their children about the holocaust?

- They should teach the children that if... First of all, they should teach about the Holocaust, what happened, that this is the evil, it did happen.

Then they should teach the children that it is very, very important to have respect for other cultures, to learn about other people, and not to ostracize them, you know?

To have respect for other cultures.

Very simple, it's not so difficult.

It's not so difficult.

- It's not so difficult.

- you don't have to love everybody.

- Barbara Turkeltaub, 90 years old, and still teaching about the Holocaust.

On behalf of "Forum 360", I'm Sally Henning.

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