(theme music playing) HORSLEY: Hello everyone.

And welcome to another "P&P Live".

My name is Bashan.

I am part of the event staff with Politics and Prose.

Weaving together, American history, dramatic family chronicle, and searing episodes of memoir.

Annette Gordon-Reed's "On Juneteenth" provides a historian's view of the country's long road to Juneteenth recounting both its origins in Texas, and the enormous hardships that African-Americans have endured in the century since, for reconstruction through Jim Crow and beyond.

Gordon-Reed will be in conversation with Dr. Rebecca Hall, who is a scholar, activist and an educator.

She is the author of the forthcoming graphic memoir, "Wake: The Hidden History of Women, Led Slave Revolts".

She writes and publishes on the history of race, gender, law, and resistance, as well as on climate justice and intersectional feminist theory.

Without any further ado, Dr. Hall, the floor is yours.

HALL: I just finished, I mean, literally today, reading your latest book "On Juneteenth"... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And was really moved.

I felt like, uh, it was the beautiful telling of, of Texas history through memoir.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And I'll say right off the bat, I know very little about Texas history and, um, I learned, I learned a lot, maybe more than I want to know.

So people are talking about there needing to be a national holiday that, that commemorates the end of slavery.

And that doesn't seem like a very controversial point in itself, but do you think it should be Juneteenth?

And if so, why?

GORDON-REED: Well, I think Juneteenth is a good candidate.

Obviously Juneteenth is not the end of legalized slavery in the United States that comes with the ratification of the 13th Amendment.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And so we would fix a date in December at the end of December, 1865, and then we would go from there.

Some people think, um, the Emancipation Proclamation, maybe January 1st might be a, a suitable day, even though that didn't free all the slaves either.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Um, and so there are other contenders, I think Juneteenth makes sense as possibly 'cause when, it doesn't have to be one day.

We, we both know that emancipation was a process.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: There was no one day when everything was over... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And we just went forward from there.

Uh, but I think it, it makes sense because Granger was able to go to Galveston and make this announcement because the army of the trans Mississippi, the Confederate army, the last one surrendered.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: It was the end of the armed conflict by the Confederacy to protect this institution... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Of slavery.

And it was, and this was brought about through the sacrifice of Union soldiers, but in particular, the sacrifice of African-American Union soldiers and they were among the people who were with Granger.

HALL: Hmm.

GORDON-REED: And I think it's symbolically important to, to mark the end.

And of course there were vigilantes and lynching and small groups of people who tried to continue this thing forever.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: But for the army, the, the end of the armed struggle to have this come out of that.

And then he could go there and say to the largest state in the Union, that is, that slavery is no longer here.

I think it would be a good, is symbolically that's as good as any point.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And you could do that and make it plain, as long as it's made plain to people that slavery is legally, the legal process takes over at that point.

And it becomes a matter of the ratification of the, of the amendment, but it's, it's good symbolically, it's the summertime.

HALL: Right.

There is that.

GORDON-REED: You know, there's, there's a certain path dependency to this as well.

I mean, I think all but about three states so far have, have some kind of recognition of this now.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And you know, any other date because they were key to other things, any other date, there are other things that are happening, you know, January 1st already has a has a holiday, that's pretty, the people are not gonna stop celebrating you don't want to set up a situation where you're going to be aggrieved because people aren't paying attention.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Proper attention to it.

So I think for the reason I said before the end of an armed conflict, thinking about black soldiers and this, the, the accomplishment that this was, uh, I would say, sure we have something to commemorate it.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: I do think there should be a day.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: This is one that doesn't have the other problems that some of the other ones have... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Possibly have.

HALL: You know, it's funny because my own relationship with Juneteenth, first, there was just a lot of ignorance about it.

Um, you know, not being from Texas.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: Um, but, um, I think, you know, being a legal scholar, I had all these objections to, to, to the holiday and I've really come around and got over myself about it.

But like some of the... GORDON-REED: Yeah, it's, it's understandable.

HALL: Yeah.

I mean, some of the objections, like the way it had presented to me or the way I, I heard it or understood it was that it was, you know, the last announcement about the end of slavery, that it actually happened two years earlier.

And I objected to that on so many levels.

Like, first of all... GORDON-REED: It's not true.

HALL: It's not true.

That's one level.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: But the idea that, you know, you know, African-Americans were like waiting for somebody to come and tell them that they were, were free... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: When there were all kinds of circulation of information.

I felt like it was a disservice to the people, the African-Americans in Texas to have it po, portrayed that way.

And then of course the Emancipation Proclamation itself, legalistically, didn't really free anybody, right?

Because, um, it was in the states in rebellion and Lincoln didn't really have jurisdiction over those states in the border states that did have slaves, it didn't apply to them.

And I think I was looking this up, uh, but the last place, I think it was Kentucky and Delaware.

GORDON-REED: Delaware.

Yeah, the last two places.

HALL: Right?

And it was the 13th Amendment that ended... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: Slavery in those, in those places.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: There are reasons to have a objections for it.

And certainly this business of them not knowing, one of the things I talk about is, is that, well, people knew what Granger was going to say.

To give you a sense, African-American people had a way of finding this stuff out and they knew what, you know, what was coming.

But the thing is the Confederate army was in, still in control... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Of that area.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: So there was no way to do this.

It's not that they were sitting around waiting and it was and because they never took control of Texas, um, a co, the, uh, Union army never co, took control of Texas.

It was harder for them to get away.

I mean, when people didn't run away, they ran south, they ran to Mexico.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Mexico was the, the place for, uh, the easiest place to get to... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Um, for many, uh African-Americans and the one that would provide them a better chance for slavery.

It's not like running to the Ohio River.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Um, it's different.

Um, so yeah, there are lots of objections about, about this, but you know, you, it's not a perfect setup... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But you have the system here now, and it really is to my mind, um, a celebration, but it supports the commemoration of... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: For me of the hope that that moment engendered for those people, even though they knew... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: That it was going to be tough that this really wasn't the end of, of strife.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But, and we know that as well.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And I say in the book, my father used to say, the slaves haven't been freed yet, but what he meant was, uh, there's a lot of work to do.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And so to me, for me, I'm just speaking, I can't speak for other people, but for me, it's a commemoration of that hope... HALL: Hmm.

GORDON-REED: And how we should continue to struggle to make those hope, to realize those hopes.

HALL: Right, if I could be the, the czar of the calendar, you know, I would, I would, you know, make a holiday to celebrate the 13th Amendment, I guess, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: I don't know, do December, maybe it would conflict with Christmas.

GORDON-REED: Yeah, it would.

HALL: And I think that for me, um, you know, also understanding that the Emancipation Proclamation, even though I sort of described it at this very legalistic thing.

It had a huge impact on... GORDON-REED: Yes.

HALL: On, on enslaved people throughout, throughout the south.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And, you know, and, you know, during the Civil War, you know, I mean, Du Bois, you know, talked about half a million enslaved people left their... GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: The farms and plantations, you know, and the Emancipation Proclamation, uh, was hugely symbolically important even if it wasn't, it, even though legally, it was kind of just, uh, another confiscation act or... GORDON-REED: It was very important.

And that this notion of emancipation, of, of African-Americans emancipating themselves and, and... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Basically breaking the back of the slave system by just leave it... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And making it to Union lines.

And again, and then on, and then many of them, of the males, many of them who had the opportunity joining the army.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And coming back down, going into the South and fighting for the freedom of their fellow African-Americans and their families.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: It's an amazing story.

HALL: It truly is, truly is.

Um, I was really, uh, also drawn to you bringing up the issue of the relationship between founding myths, uh, and, and the present.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, our relationship, our relationship between founding myths and the present.

And I was wondering if you could, could, could say more about that.

GORDON-REED: The family myths of Texas or the founding myths of... HALL: The founding myths in general.

GORDON-REED: Just in general?

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: I suggest that since we do it in every culture... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Human beings need myths, um, as a, as a way of binding people together.

And the question here of course, is who's being bound... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: What people are being bound and what are you asking some groups of people to accept... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: In order to perpetuate these myths and so forth.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And in Texas is particularly difficult because I grew up, um, in a state that is very chauvinistic about itself and people wonder why, but we are very chauvinistic about it.

We take Texas history, fourth and seventh grade... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And we learn all about the Alamo... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And Jim Bowie and David Crockett... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And William Travis and all these people.

And the myth is one of, you know, these, well, the Alamo, these valiant people who were fighting for their principles and they're willing to die for their principles, which is an important thing.

That's great.

That's an admirable thing, but you have to think about what their principles were... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And, and come to this point where you, you have to recognize that yes, Santa Ana did suspend the Constitution and that's, that's a big deal... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: But there was also a concern about slavery.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: I mean, Mexico, so, um, had, you know, had outlawed slavery, Mexico, they kind of looked the other way with the Texians as they call them.

But there was always this insecurity about the institution.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And you could see it in the American context, you know, with the founder, you know, the Southerners, South Carolina... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: All these people they're playing, you know, in 1787, when they're in the Constitutional Convention and they're playing hard ball, they're thinking about their way of life... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And how they're gonna protect it.

So the similar thing is going down on, down in Texas with these people, and then they break away from Mexico and form the Republic of Texas in the Constitution, in the Constitution explicitly.

It's not like the United States is kinda trying to bury it... HALL: Right, right.

GORDON-REED: In provisions, these people are upfront and bold about it.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: You know, this is, you know, slavery is recognized.

African-Americans, can't become citizens.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: They can't come here without permission.

All these kinds of things there is setting up a sla, what is called a slave holders republic.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And that's why Texas was so controversial as, uh, as, and when people were thinking about bringing it into the Union.

Um, and there was a fight about this... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Huge fight about this.

And so now on one hand, you celebrate people who were asked to celebrate the Alamo and, and Texas for public.

But how do you ask African-Americans to celebrate the founding of a Republic which meant that my great, great, great grandparents were enslaved and couldn't, or black people couldn't come there and live... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And couldn't become Texans.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Um, so yeah, so it's, it's a tricky business for people.

And so these founding myths have to be confronted.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And it's ve, it's a painful process because people you know I talk in the book about they're going to see the movie, "The Alamo".

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And, uh... HALL: That was an amazing section.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

Th, th, "The Alamo" and you're thinking, yeah, you know, Laurence Harvey is really handsome and he's William Barrett Travis, and he's got a nice uniform on and, you know, Richard Widmark, uh, you know, who's Jim Bowie and he's one of my favorite, all that kind of thing.

And then you tie this all up very emotionally, but then you, you think about, wait a minute, what are these people fighting about?

HALL: Right.

Right.

Keeping my people as chattel.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard.

HALL: And, and it's funny because, uh, you know, I realized how incredibly ignorant I am about, uh, Texas history.

Um, but I, you know, I literally, all I know about the Alamo is the phrase, "Remember the Alamo," and I don't even know what we're remembering it for... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Or anything, anything like that.

I mean, I certainly, uh, uh, you know, learned as an adult about the Republic of, of Texas and... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Separating from Mexico.

And, but I hadn't read the provisions, like in your book, the provisions in, in the Republic of Texas' constitution.

I mean, they were definitely not trying to be subtle, as you say, you know, as they were in the United States Constitution, where they kept talking about other persons, you know?

Uh... GORDON-REED: Hmm.

Persons held to service.

HALL: Held to service.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And all this kind of thing.

HALL: People not taxed.

And, you know... GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: Um, so, so, yeah.

Um, and I think, uh, it's incredibly, uh, prescient because I was just reading today about, um, legislation in Texas, uh, about, uh, you know, trying to forbid the teaching of race.

I think like it specifically bands, the 1619 Project, which is a whole another discussion, but, um, promotes patriotic, uh, education regarding the secession from Mexico.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I find that really terrifying, but I found it particularly moving after having read your book... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Because you talk about how Texas, which is your home, right?

And the home of your people is in some ways a white man, right?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And that just double consciousness, like, you know, the white slave holding republic, but I'm African-American and, and the descendant of, of, of slave.

So I'm assuming you've been following all, all the... GORDON-REED: Oh, yes.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: It's slightly frightening.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Um, and it's depressing in a way to think that patriotism is equated with writing nothing but positive things about a place as if you could not love a place or love a person unless they were perfect in your eyes.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: And it was all good and you're just not getting a good picture of what, what, what history is, what the state, you know, what the state has been through.

If you can't appreciate the struggles, uh, in, uh, of people in that state, black people, and some white people who were their allies... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: As well, who went through a lot, because, you know, they were, they got beaten too, when they... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: When they did, when they ran afoul of, of people who wanted to maintain the racial hierarchy, uh, in the state.

You know, get a sense of what the struggles are... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And how far the co, the state has come.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: If you don't acknowledge the kinds of things that went on in the past, and you also are, I think, um, disrespecting African-American people, if you pretend that you have to hide what happened to them, so that whites can feel good... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: About Jim Bowie.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Or Davy Crockett or whatever... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: It's just not worth it.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: I mean, there are some things you can admire, what you think is the valor, whatever you think is there, but you have to be realistic about what happened.

And so I, you know, I think the more you do this kinds of things, there were, there's a reaction against it.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And I think people will stand up and say, I can, I can take it.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: You know, Texans, Texas can take it to ha, to tell the truth about how it was founded.

These are the things that we did.

These were the things that we shouldn't have done.

We wanna do better.

Uh, and we're gonna go forward.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: I mean, that's the, yeah, that's really, um, the other interesting thing to me about it is this kind of the worship of the past when this is a state that has been very much about the future.

You know, one of the ways that I think that Texas is somewhat different than like Virginia... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Uh, Virginia, the old south is very much into the old, the old... HALL: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: South, Texas is supposed to be about, we're looking forward.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: We're going, it's the west, that's what you're supposed to be doing.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And so this idea that you're gonna mire yourself in the past, it just doesn't seem to fit with the what's supposed to be, supposedly the spirit of the state.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just all, all of these, um, you know, it's across multiple states this... GORDON-REED: Oh yeah.

HALL: You know, needing, you know, requiring people to, you know, and I've had this sort of unusual experience, uh, of having taught law school, graduate school, college, and high school.

GORDON-REED: Hmm.

HALL: And I've seen how, how fraught these issues are and how little is already taught.

Um... GORDON-REED: Oh, yeah.

HALL: But, but, but seeing so many states right now, uh, make these moves to me, it feels like they're scared, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: It's there.

GORDON-REED: Well, I was gonna say, is this a reaction to the effectiveness of the critique... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Of bringing and, and not even you can call it a critique, but just even the, the display of information... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: About all of this.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And, and there's sort of a reaction to it... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And that's expected.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: People are, people are gonna push back.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But it's in the Constitution.

I mean, if you're going in the Texas Constitution... HALL: Right.

Exactly.

You know, not teach that.

GORDON-REED: It's not like, you made this stuff up.

HALL: Right.

Right.

Exactly.

GORDON-REED: We didn't make up race, they, they talked about race.

They were obsessed with this question.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: And this is not some newfangled thing that people just thought up.

HALL: No, no.

GORDON-REED: Race, political correctness, it's in the Constitution.

If you want to teach that document, that primary document, you're gonna have to talk about those sections.

HALL: Right.

Yeah.

I don't know how they plan, you know, plan to, to do that.

Um, without talking about the founding constitution for Texas.

GORDON-REED: Exactly.

HALL: Um... GORDON-REED: And the Declaration of Independence of Texas that basically knocks off the American Declaration, but it doesn't say anything about all men are created equal.

HALL: Right, right.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: They take everything, but let's take that one out.

HALL: Let's get rid of that, that's been problematic.

GORDON-REED: It's problematic.

HALL: Yeah.

Um, and I kind of more sort of zeroing in on, on Texas, which as you've probably gotten at this point, I'm, I'm quite ignorant about, I think I've been... GORDON-REED: No, you've done really well with this.

HALL: Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Um, but, uh, they, you, you talk about a particularly gruesome history of racial violence in, in Texas and how it haunt, continues to haunt, you know, your hometown.

GORDON-REED: Well, I, I guess you're referring to the fact that the place where I grew up, the town, where I grew up, um, had a really, really has a really rough reputa, reputation on the question of race.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Because there were a number of lynchings there.

Um, it's a tough town, it was a prosperous town.

It started as an oil town.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And so it was not a situation where people were deprived.

There was an, the industry was oil and also a saw mill was there as well.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Um, so it's not like people didn't have enough to go around.

It was a fairly prosperous place.

And, but, and there was a relatively small black population.

It's not like Mississippi where... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: We're talking 7% to 10% of, of... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: My people who are black.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And there was a town where there are a number of lynchings.

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Uh, people, a man was burned at the stake, burned alive at the stake on the courthouse square... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: In the 1920s.

Um, a man was shot in an open courtroom.

And... HALL: Yeah.

That was a, that, that particular, um, story.

Uh, I found, I mean, racist vi, violence, it's pretty endemic to this country.

Um, but, uh, that particular story that you recount in your, in your book, um, was upsetting to me.

I mean, it's upsetting... GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: First of all, but I had this weird because I learned the case, Texas v. White as a law student.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And you know, and it was this victorious case about, um, due process being applied to the states and, you know, and this, it, no one told me or talked about what happened next.

You know, which... GORDON-REED: Yeah, well, it was interesting because I didn't know, Texas v. White.

I mean, I teach criminal procedure and we use a different case to talk about the 14th Amendment.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: The, the texts that I use, it uses different, taste to talk, uh, case to talk about the due prosco, process clause of the 14th Amendment and confessions.

But my grandfather talked to me about Bob White, used to mention Bob White when I was a little girl... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And he knew Bob White.

And he knew the Cochran's because this happened in Livingston... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: The place where I was born, and so he knew these folks.

And I had always heard this story, and in terms of the, the shooting in the courtroom and the guy, the husband of the, the woman who that White allegedly raped.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And my grandfather said, had been his phrase "going together" the way people used to say that.

Um, and so I knew the story only from that oral history anecdote.

It wasn't until I was writing this book that I knew that it went all the way up to the Supreme Court.

HALL: Wow.

Okay.

GORDON-REED: So I did not know.

I mean, I have all these other due process cases... HALL: Right, right.

GORDON-REED: But, but in, in my town where I, you know, I was born.

And then, and then they removed the case from Livingston to Conroe where I grew up.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Was supposed to be... HALL: Thinking that'd be a fair outcome.

GORDON-REED: Fair.

It's a... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Yes, so a fair outcome.

And there was an outcome, but not the one that anyone predicted.

So that's, that's fascinating that we're at the opposite ends of this.

You know, you knew the legal and the procedural thing.

And I knew the back, I knew what happened after this.

Because, and I think it's upsetting when you read this.

I mean, the lynchings, all those things were upsetting as well, but there's something about the idea that this had gone through all, and you, you think the black people in Texas must've been hopeful.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Because the appeals courts, I mean, it looked like people were saying, the courts were saying, look, you know, you can't take somebody out at night and tie him to a tree and beat them until they confess... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: That's against the US, you know, this Constitution.

HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Um, and, and then to have it end like that, it just really broke people.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: My great-grandmother's sister who was very close to my mother and, and, and all of us, we, would not stay spend the night in Conroe.

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

You say that in, in, in your, in the book.

GORDON-REED: Yeah, she just, You know, I, it was just... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: 'Cause, 'cause you can't, I mean, there's some extra, extra legal violence, you know, what mobs do.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But this was in a courtroom.

HALL: This was in a courtroom.

Exactly.

It wasn't on the courthouse steps.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: It was like in front of the, in front of the judge and... GORDON-REED: Everybody.

HALL: Right.

And this is the thing too, that you bring up in the, in the book, uh, where you talk about this, this history of violence and then this case in particular and how it's, uh, terrorism, you know, like a message.

GORDON-REED: Oh, yeah.

HALL: You know, that, that the law is not here to protect you... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Uh, it's actually here to, to kill you, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: I feel like that's just as true today.

Um, I, you know, I feel, you know, like if there was a problem I'm not calling 911, you know?

And so, you know, I'm a citizen of a country in which, um, the state, you know, through its police department are killing my people.

Um, and what then is my relationship?

What kind of citizenship do I have?

You know, who's here to protect me.

And I think a lot of people are, are feeling that, are feeling that now, you know?

GORDON-REED: Oh, yes.

There was some, some years ago and my brother, something happened to my brother's phone and I could not get in touch with him.

And the person that I typically, you know, called was away.

And so I had to, I had to really think about, do I want to ha, have the police just ride by and, you know... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Check, check on him to see if he was okay.

HALL: Yeah.

Do a safety check.

GORDON-REED: Do a safety or whatever?

And I thought about it and I thought about it and finally I broke down and gambled what I thought was a gamble actually.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And, um, said this to, And somehow I got into talking to the person who, you know, who was going to send somebody, you know, to say that we're black and this person was indignant that I expressed any hesitation about as if nothing, as this with no problem.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But I haven't really agonized over this decision.

HALL: Right, right.

GORDON-REED: You know, do, what do I do?

HALL: Right.

And they're like, what's your issue?

GORDON-REED: What's your issue?

We, you know, we... HALL: Like, like it's like you're not some... GORDON-REED: Yeah, what's the problem here.

But I did, because I thought, you know, this could, this is a gamble.

I don't know how this is gonna turn out, but, and it turned out of course, that something, the phone line was down... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And he was fine and nothing happened.

But the very fact that that goes through your mind that you have to think is this gonna turn out worse than the things that are going on in my head now... HALL: Right.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Imagine not being able to get in touch with him.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Um, so yeah, so I know how you feel.

HALL: I have a son of 23-year-old son and, you know, it's, uh, I remember somebody was going door to door and they're like, uh, we want to sell you Brinks Home Security.

And, you know, you're, and it's like, no, I don't want my house wired to the police.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: You know, I think that was after the murder of Atatiana Jefferson, who was sitting in her living room, playing video game with her nephew.

And I think someone saw the door was open and called for a safety check, and then she was dead.

GORDON-REED: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HALL: And it's like, no, thank you.

No, I don't want my phone, my house wired to the police.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

HALL: Uh, and it just brings up the issue about, um, and I find this in conversations with, um, younger black folk, um, is, you know, have we made progress?

I mean, you, you put, you, you make it very clear in your book, nobody is selling us, you know, and, you know?

GORDON-REED: Yes.

HALL: Uh, and, you know, I, um, have this weird, uh, generation skip in my family.

So my, my paternal grandparents were actually born slaves.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, I've of course never met them... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: But they were both born in 1860.

So that... GORDON-REED: Aah.

HALL: Yeah.

You know, and, uh, so that connection, you know, is very, uh, real for me.

And I get really unhappy with younger activists who say, you know, this is just like slavery, or this is... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: The new slavery, or this is the, and it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's bad, but your mother's not giving birth to property, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, and even with the Prison Industrial Complex, you know, your, your children aren't being sold, you know?

Um, and I was just wondering how you deal with, 'cause I mean, you, you have students right?

That you teach and I'm sure people come to you... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And ask you for that reality check.

Like, have we gotten anywhere?

Like, how do you, how do you address that?

GORDON-REED: Well, I mean, it's, the struggle is different.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: I see African-American people as having been on a journey or on a journey.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And obviously the first one across the middle passage here and then through slavery and then post-slavery, and at every turn there's been, it's been a struggle.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And I don't want to say that there haven't been any victories at all... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Because there have been victories.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And I think I would, I would not give enough respect or honor to the people who worked very hard to see, you know, at every step of the way to say that all of your efforts were for not... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: It's not, it's not true.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But it doesn't mean that there's not a serious struggle that is still going on... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And a struggle for first class or regular citizenship.

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And we're still fighting for that.

And you're right, nobody's getting sold.

Um, and to think of what, I mean, there are, there are other thing, there are other ways that people are separated from families... HALL: Yeah, absolutely.

GORDON-REED: Uh, and people talk about prison and they talk about these kinds of things, but there, there are being labeled a chattel and how regularly people were separated from children and how, I mean, the, how once slavery was over, people spent so much time trying to find their relatives.

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And I, which I think sparks this family reunion thing that black people like to do, uh, so much just everybody coming together.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Because there was a time when, when just on a whim, somebody dies and they have to split the kids up.

They're gonna give property to the, all the kids.

And then you go here and you go there that, the trauma of that.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And the, in the fear of that, even if it didn't happen... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Knowing that that's something that could happen to you.

HALL: Right.

That you don't have that kind of control over your... GORDON-REED: You don't, yeah.

HALL: Over your life.

GORDON-REED: Yeah, exactly.

HALL: Or the idea that you literally, as a black enslaved woman, you're literally giving birth to property.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: You know, like this is somebody's property and not a person and not yours.

And... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, yeah.

GORDON-REED: You're in the source of, of, of that kind of thing, of, of chattel of the notion... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And chattel in people.

HALL: Right.

And I, and I think it's, I mean, I personally think it's a legacy of slavery that we're still, uh, haunted by, or this country still shaped by the way, in which African-American women are, are, are still seen as somehow less sensate or less kind of sub human or... GORDON-REED: Oh, yes.

Yes.

HALL: Um, you know, because of this... GORDON-REED: Not well... HALL: Well, or a different kind of woman, right?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: You've got white women who give birth to heirs of property, and then you give, have black women who give birth to property.

Like it's almost like two genders of women, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Yeah, and that was, that was a project from the very, very beginning to bring... HALL: Exactly.

GORDON-REED: African women here, to work and to work in the fields and treated as, uh, not as a category, well, different kind of woman, but just, something in between.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And, um, so it's been, it's very difficult to think about how to sort of reconcile notions of feminism, how it works for black women and doesn't work for black women, whatever programs there, because we've not had the same experiences.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And, um, yeah.

And so the de, black women is degraded, um, has been the mantra from the very, very beginning.

HALL: Right.

Right.

Yeah.

That's a whole, whole other book topic.

GORDON-REED: I know, it's another book topic.

You write a memoir about that.

HALL: Yeah.

Right.

GORDON-REED: Well, you have.

No, but you, you've written counter to that, right?

HALL: Yes.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Your book is counter to that idea.

HALL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GORDON-REED: Obviously.

HALL: When you were talking about, you know, have we made progress or whatever, I think of that, um, Vincent Harding concept of, you know, there is a river that, I mean, I think he's talking more in terms of like black resistance in general, but that it's an ongoing, you know, connection from our ancestors into the present and that to deny that there's progress.

I mean, not only is that counterfactual, but like, as you say, it's, it's disrespectful to the, a lot of the work that, that has been done, but I still feel like, how are we ever gonna get out of this?

I mean, I feel like, um, we, we are, you talk about Texas being a white man.

I feel like the United States is a white man.

And like, and is, is trying to, to, to be a white ethno-state or, uh, uh, and, um, how are we gonna move, move past that?

I mean, we, obviously, we need to have some major truth and reconciliation.

I mean, something has to happen.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: But like, you know, I just, I just, you know, get up sometimes and I'm just like, how are we ever gonna move past this?

GORDON-REED: It's tough.

And when I, when I say Texas is a white man, I'll just say, Texas is constructed as a white people.

HALL: Right.

Of course.

GORDON-REED: People to see him that way.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And people wanna see the United States as a white nation... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: No question about it.

And maybe a white male nation as well.

HALL: Yes.

Yeah.

GORDON-REED: But the only thing we can do is to, to counter that, but what we've done from the very beginning, uh, to challenge that idea and, you know, Du Bois thought that African-American people had a message for the world, uh, that there, Because of the things that had happened to us, what we've learned here, going through all of this... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: About struggle and about notions of justice that it's given us that, those kinds of insights and it's, you know, it's not, it's not fun or cheery to, to have to be the people who do, who bring that message who have it, but we do.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And that's the responsibility we have.

I, I don't see, I think, you know, as a historian, we know that there's no, there's no inevitable end to anything.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: The, there's no inevitable progress, you know, no promise land that would... HALL: (inaudible), right?

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

That we're going to go through.

No, it's just about the struggle, what we do to move things forward, incrementally... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: In whatever way we can.

And that's, that's what we have to hope for... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Because that's what people did before.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: Then we just have to keep the ball moving.

HALL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, yeah.

Freedom is a constant struggle.

GORDON-REED: Yep.

HALL: I think that's Angela Davis' latest, latest book.

GORDON-REED: Uh-huh.

HALL: And before you start taking questions, um, was there anything else about, about the book, uh, that you wanted to, to communicate with people?

GORDON-REED: Well, I just to, to say that the book is, it's a history of Texas told through my family... HALL: Yes.

GORDON-REED: And it is a, and it touches on all of the people, you know, Latino people... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Indigenous people... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: Um, African-American people, Anglo-American people that make the state something more than.

HALL: Davey Crockett.

GORDON-REED: This constructed white man.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: You know, that it is a diverse place that has a complex and a rich history that ought to be known.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: And that has, has all of the sort of major currents of American history that flow through it, plantation slavery, uh, westward expansion... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: Latino Anglo, you know, relations, conflict, whatever.

Jim Crow... HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: All of it in this one.

And it borders a foreign country.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: All of these things are in this one place, which makes it quite volatile.

HALL: Indigenous genocide and, yeah.

And it used to be a foreign country, right?

GORDON-REED: Yes.

Exactly.

Exactly.

HALL: Black people say like we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us.

GORDON-REED: Crossed us.

Exactly.

Exactly.

HALL: Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely very rich history and, and your personal story just really, really enriches it.

Um, it just really brings it home, like to the heart.

GORDON-REED: Thank you.

HORSLEY: Can either of you talk about any of the ways that slaves knew or I guess passed along information?

How were they informed and what process did this look like?

GORDON-REED: Well, um, John Adams, I believe it was, mentioned in the 18th century that the Negroes have a wonderful way of commu, I'm sort of paraphrasing, communicating with themselves.

Well, if you think about it, they're servants, they work with people who have information.

They overhear what people say.

They communicate it to, uh, people who are running errands.

And so I think it, it was passed from person to person.

I mean, people think of enslaved people as just being sort of stuck in one place all the time.

No, they ran errands, they did things, they moved around.

And so it was the co, the grapevine was through people through their, you know, their compatriots and so forth.

And so, as I said, the people were celebrating what Granger was going to say in the days before he even got there... HORSLEY: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: To Galveston.

So it's person to person.

Rebecca, you wanna... HALL: Yeah.

And I think, I mean, there's been a lot of, you know, historical work done, uh, relatively recently on the sort of geography of, of, um, slavery and communication networks.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, you know, my, my focus is, you know, early British America and, you know, I look at New York in the 1700s.

I mean, people, I mean to get water, there were like four wells, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And all the enslaved people were going to get the water, I mean, it, the, the sort of circles of communication were, were constant... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, you know, whether it was urban or rural or, you know, what century you're in.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: So yeah.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

If you think about a place like Monticello, if Jefferson sends a person to Montpelier, uh, to Ma, Madison to give, uh, to send, uh, bring a letter that person would know the enslaved people who worked at Montpelier and they would talk... HALL: Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: And then that person would go, And so the communication would go through from person to person and it's sort of an extensive and effective network.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And a lot of the, you know, uh, you know, reading sources against the grain and seeing how, uh, slavers, slaveholders were so worried about, uh, what their, their enslaved people, uh, knew, like, oh, are they going to find out about the Haitian revolution you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Are they gonna, you know... GORDON-REED: And they did.

HALL: And they did.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

HORSLEY: Ok so here's a good question.

Uh, the person says, "Great book, professor Reed in your book, you wrote 'The fear of a black imagination was strong all throughout slavery, making life as hard as possible for free African-Americans impairing their movement and economic prospects.

Even if it meant the state would forego the economic benefits, was designed to prove that blacks could not operate outside of slavery.'

Your question is, do you believe these imparence still exist today?"

GORDON-REED: Oh, I think the fear of the black imagination is very much still a part of all of this because it's upsets for people who believe in a racial hierarchy, that it has the potential for upsetting that, that hierarchy.

And, uh, we're talking today about just a moment ago about, uh, these various pieces of legislation that are designed to tamp down on discussions about race and white supremacy and all of that.

Well, this is about people learning things like, well, not just blacks, you know, but blacks and whites.

But blacks being able to express their views, express their, their thoughts about these things, I think it hearkens back to that idea that you want to sort of limit, limit us and, uh, not have us participate in the conversation in a way that might change minds, not just black minds but the minds of white people as well.

HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: So the fear, the black imagination doesn't just work among blacks.

It works, you know, just, we've influenced so many different things, music, art, all of that, it has potential for spreading outside of it.

So I definitely think that that's still there.

And this, this legislation, these things that we're talking about now are manifestations of that.

HORSLEY: Could you address why you believe current lawmakers are trying to suppress this history under the guise of white bashing and misstating, uh, the purpose of Critical Race Theory?

Uh, they believe that it's problematic, especially because slave holders got reparations after slavery ended.

And of course we know that that didn't happen for the slaves themselves.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Well, I mean, it's related to what I, I said before is that, um, there's a fear that if you talk about the truth, if you explain things in a truthful way, it might change people's minds about things where you think about the past and the way we think about why we're here, we're in the position we're, we're in today.

And it does involve people I think misstating what Critical Race Theory is supposed to be about.

Um, I mean it's just, they're saying the words without having read any of the, the work Derek Bell or my classmate Kim Crenshaw or any of those kinds of things.

Uh it's, it's the fear of the black imagination.

HALL: Mm-hmm.

GORDON-REED: It's a fear of people changing their views about things because people who feel that the status quo is fine don't want people to think critically about it.

I mean, it's, I mean, I think that that's really what it is.

It's a fear of the possibility of changing people's minds.

HALL: Yeah.

HORSLEY: I think... HALL: It has been a trip to, to hear this term Critical Race Theory being like bandied about among all these people who have no idea what it is or what they're talking about.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, yeah, it's pretty crazy.

HORSLEY: And I know the two of you touched on this early in the conversation, but a short answer could suffice here.

Um, do you Ms. Reed, uh, favor Juneteenth being made a national holiday?

GORDON-REED: Uh, yes.

HORSLEY: Brief.

HALL: You're, you're, willing to share it.

GORDON-REED: I'm willing to share, at first, first at first I was very pro, proprietary about it... HALL: Right.

GORDON-REED: But I think it, it should.

And, and I recognize what she, what we talked about before all of the arguments against that, but I think where we are now with so many states already doing it and the stories that could be told around it will be told around it.

I think it's, I think it's, it makes sense to do it.

It wasn't, I hadn't thought about it when I was writing the book quite frankly.

Um, but you know, after it was done and everybody's asked me about it, uh, yeah, I think so.

HORSLEY: So here's a question from Sarah Angle.

She wants to know.

Have you had the opportunity to read Ralph Ellison's "Juneteenth", his posthumously published novel?

She states that she hasn't, but she's curious if you have, and if you have any thoughts about what it meant, the day meant to Ralph.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

No, I don't have any, well, I obviously thinking about freedom.

I read the excerpts that were done, but I've not read the entire, the entire book.

I think it was co, I made as near as I can tell Rebecca, did you read all of it?

HALL: I haven't read it.

GORDON-REED: No.

HALL: I haven't read it.

Yeah.

HORSLEY: Well, this is a big one but I'm going to read it any way.

This could be both of you.

This question is what do you believe is next step that needs to be taken by the country in order to continue to move forward, uh, and just creating more equality.

GORDON-REED: We can continue the conversation that we're supposed to be having now about race.

We could continue the effort to build a safety net to strengthen the safety net for all Americans, uh, with healthcare, um, the childcare support, giving people, you know, the economic and the sort of economic, you know, safety for people of, of all races.

But I still think we have to come to grips with, have a, we, we mentioned truth and reconciliation.

There has to be a truthful discussion about what has happened in the past before we can get to any kind of reconciliation.

So, I, I mean, this is a, it's a huge question, but I think the practical things about the sort of getting people fed and educated, places to live, all those kinds of things have to, have to, have to be done, but we have to still talk about, be truthful as we can about the past and to sort of resist the effort to hide that.

HALL: Yeah.

Right.

You don't wanna ask me 'cause I (inaudible).

GORDON-REED: No, we do, what do you think?

HALL: Well, so, I mean, uh, demilitarize and defund the police... GORDON-REED: Right.

HALL: You know, um, uh, absolutely truth and reconciliation.

Uh, as, as you were saying, you know, having a safety net dealing with, um, you know, generations of economic inequality, you know, de jure and de facto, um, uh, we have, there, there, there's so much, so much work, so much work to be done.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And, and I think that there's this tendency, uh, I don't know if they say a uniquely American thing, but of this, like we're going to sort of trivialize and co-opt whatever kind of movement towards progress that we can.

So like, so I'm not the person, Dr. Hall is not the person to come to your corporation to talk about diversity and inclusion, you know?

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: I don't, I don't wanna be included in that.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: And, and I'm, I'm not a diverse person, you know, we are all people.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HALL: Um, I think the approaches, you know, that are typical, uh, to, to how issues of race are dealt with are, are, are quite problematic and we need, uh, you know, a more radical paradigm.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

HORSLEY: Ingrid wants to know how our racial relations and the truth about the past dealt with specifically in Texas.

GORDON-REED: Well, as we've said, I mean, it's, it depends, there are lots of historical associations, lots of organizations, lots of people who are working very hard to tell truthful and accurate stories about Texas.

And then there are people who are in reaction against that.

And I think if they were not being so effective, there was not the thought that they were being effective, there would not be a reaction.

So we're in a moment of conflict it appears because you know, voting in Texas was up.

People have been paying attention to that, to elections... HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: And all of this.

I mean, it was, it's a hard-fought battle, but we're seeing in some ways the forces of reaction to that in place.

So it's polarized, you know?

I don't wanna say it's any one thing, because there are people in Texas who were really fighting the good fight and, and educators.

And as I said, historical associations, uh, historical places where there are historical monuments and so forth, they're trying to tell a better story about things and people are pushing back against that.

So we'll see what happens.

HALL: Right.

HORSLEY: Okay.

So we are drawing to an end.

So I am actually going to ask the last question and it's really both of you.

Um, so whichever of you wants to go first by all means, but what we do at Politics and Prose is whenever we have our "P&P Live", we always wanna ask our guests if you're currently reading anything.

And if so, could you please share that with everything?

Sorry for the surprise Dr. Hall.

HALL: Uh, like reading for fun or reading for work?

HORSLEY: Oh, no, no, leisure, leisure, leisure.

Not for work.

HALL: Leisure.

Okay.

I have this weird thing.

I'm, I'm like a geek.

And so I'm actually reading, I like to read like "Science for Dummies".

Uh, so this is what I'm currently reading right now.

It keeps my mind off of slavery, which is my research.

So I am re, reading about cosmology and the very first, first stars.

Uh, that's what I'm reading at the moment.

GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Well, I, I don't read a lot for fun 'cause I read so much for work, but I am looking at a book by HG Wells called "Experiment in Autobiography".

And it's a book that I read, reread periodically.

(thunder bolt) My goodness.

There's thunder, so there's, you mentioned a storm.

Um, it's a book that I read, re-read periodically.

So "Experiment in Autobiography" by H. G. Wells.

HALL: Oh, I need check that out.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

HALL: I'm a big sci-fantasy reader too... GORDON-REED: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

HALL: Yeah.

But I do a lot of reading for fun.

Uh, it's just, I don't read history for fun.

GORDON-REED: Yeah.

I read magazine articles for fun.

HALL: Yeah.

GORDON-REED: I read a lots of books.

HALL: Right.

Right.

Yeah.

HORSLEY: Well, on behalf of Politics and Prose, I like to think both Professor Reed, Dr. Hall for this wonderful conversation.

I like to, of course, thank everyone who's tuned in with us.

And for everyone out there we want you all to stay safe and of course stay well read.

NARRATOR: Books by tonight's authors are available at Politics and Prose bookstore locations or online at politics-pros.com.

(music plays through credits).