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(upbeat music) (indistinct chattering) (bell ringing) - Pardon me.

Good afternoon.

Welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

Today is Friday, March 24th.

I'm Dan Moulthrop.

I'm the chief executive here, and also a member.

And I'm pleased to introduce and moderate our forum today.

It's a conversation with two extraordinary filmmakers, Evgeny Afineevsky, director of "Freedom on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom," and Lesya Kalynska, director of "A Rising Fury."

Both films are part of this year's Cleveland International Film Festival, the 47th Cleveland International Film Festival, which runs through next weekend at Playhouse Square.

Here in the United States, the war in Ukraine entered the cultural lexicon last February when Russia invaded the country.

But for those living in Ukraine, the 2022 invasion is only the most recent escalation in an ongoing fight for peace and freedom.

In her film "A Rising Fury," Lesya Kalynska takes viewers back to 2014 when the war between Russia and Ukraine began, captures a portrait of resistance in Ukraine during the years before and through the 2022 invasion.

The film provides an intense look at the tactics taken by Russian forces to infiltrate Ukraine and make possible the devastating invasions to come.

In "Freedom on Fire" of Evgeny Afineevsky, follows the 2022 invasion from the ground and highlights the experiences of everyday Ukrainians, parents, journalists, and volunteers who are trying to adapt to their new normal of living in a war zone.

It's an honest portrayal of the hardships Ukrainians are experiencing in the early days of the invasion, and they continue to experience today.

Both documentaries situate the current conflict in an appropriate historical context as well.

Not just the connection to the 2013 Maidan Revolution, but also the centuries of tension that have characterized the relationship between the Ukrainian and Russian states.

We're gonna talk about these films, the war, the struggles of the Ukrainian people, and the receptions these films have found around the world.

From the Vatican to Tribeca to other places in-between.

If you have questions for our guests, you can text them to 330.541.5794.

That's 330.541.5794.

You can also tweet your question at The City Club and our staff will work it into the second half of the program.

Members and Friends of the City Club of Cleveland, please join me in a warm City Club welcome for Evgeny Afineevsky and Lesya Kalynska.

(audience clapping) So congratulations to you both on two extraordinary works of art.

And I'd like to ask you both to share with us the story of kind of why you made these films.

And Lesya, I hope we can start with you.

- First of all, thank you everybody for your interest to Ukraine and Ukrainian cinema, and I'm so grateful and honored to be here in this historic place in City Club.

And also we are very grateful to Cleveland Film Festival for hosting our film.

I was born and raised in Kiev, Ukraine, and when I was a child, it was still Soviet times and Ukrainian history was literally erased.

So Russian empire and Soviet Union did everything possible to erase Ukrainian history.

And I was learning it through bits and pieces of history of my own family, who and when and how was persecuted.

And, you know, my grandmother and my father, they didn't like talking about it that much because it was still very dangerous.

And eventually my father actually had to immigrate from Soviet Union as political immigrant.

And I was really impressed by the revolution that is not that well known in America.

Revolution on Granite in 1990.

I was, like, almost a child, very young, but it impressed me so much.

It felt like the history unfolding in front of your eyes.

And this revolution actually had a big influence on a proclamation of Ukrainian independence in '91.

So at that time, I wanted to do something about that revolution, but I was too young, I was just writing some articles about it.

And then later when Orange Revolution happened, I was in New York making my first narrative film.

I also couldn't make it.

So when my dance started, I just put a ticket and flew to film the revolution.

So I started filming in 2013, and then my co-director, Ruslan Batytskyi and me, and our producer, T.J. Collins, our American producer in 2016, and Norwegian producer, Jonathan Borge Lie from Norway.

So initially, I wanted to make a film about revolution.

I was there day and night for all three months and after the revolution, but then one of our characters volunteered to go to the frontline, Pablo, and we just decided to continue.

And we were basically continuing filming, waiting for Ukrainian victory, but it was just not happening for many years.

So we just kept filming.

and we finished filming in 2022 when the full scale invasion started.

So basically it's like a nine-year journey, but our story starts in 2007 with our main character.

So he shared with us his photos.

So basically our main character appears in the beginning as this young boy, and now he's gray.

So for me it was this attempt to create a film about contemporary Ukrainian history, about Russian invasion to Ukraine through the story of regular people, of everyday heroes from the point of view of Ukrainians.

- Lesya Kalynska's film is "A Rising Fury."

And I'll just mention that it's playing tonight, Friday the 24th at 5:00 PM.

The KeyBank State Theatre is part of the film festival, the Cleveland International Film Festival.

Evgeny Afineevsky, your film "Freedom on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom" is screening on Saturday the 25th at 2:20 in the afternoon.

Tell us a little bit about why you made this film.

It wasn't your first film about a revolution and political tension in Ukraine.

- In 2013.

First of all, thank you everybody.

And thank you for helping to spread the word and give chance for the voices of Ukrainian people to be heard across the country and specifically here in Cleveland.

In 2013, I found myself on Ukrainian Maidan, exactly like you, and combined a lot of cinematographers around me.

And we did a movie called "Winter on Fire," which literally captured amazing spirit of Ukrainian nation, unity, something that I as the kid never saw in my life, something that moved me, changed me.

So 2013, 2014, I documented Ukrainian Maidan or Revolution of Dignity, which really was the beginning of unification of the nation, and also as we see today was the beginning of the war.

Because of the victory of Maidan, the real war broke, broken in Ukraine.

Putin unleashed his annexation of Crimea and invasion of Ukrainian territories.

That's when the war started.

In 2014, I finished my movie "Winter on Fire: Ukrainian Fight for Freedom," which was later also Oscar nomination.

But for me, I also continued filming in 2014, '15, Annexation of Crimea, (indistinct).

And when many of my friends were asking if I'm planning to do the movie, I said, I don't think I will be continuing this because I want to tell more international stories, which I did.

I did Syrian story, I did some other stories.

I was hoping that many Ukrainian filmmakers will bring their movies, their stories like you guys about the war that broke.

And that was real hope, because I didn't want to just to focus on Ukraine, I wanted to give you ability to tell the stories.

But you know, last year, at the beginning of 2022, I found myself in interesting situation.

Literally from 2014 into '22, eight years passed.

And the world neglected the fact of the war.

Not just neglected.

The whole world was busy with many others issues.

And you know what?

Somehow eight years of this war were neglected, which allowed Putin who was committing day by day crimes, war crimes, continue them and not only continue them, unleash the full scale war in February, 2022.

And realizing this fact, I not had a choice, I had a moral obligation to all my friends in Ukraine.

I had moral obligation to go and continue my story that I left in Maidan and go back to Maidan and tell the whole story that happened between '14 and 2022, something that the world, unfortunately, not was familiar, something that the nation was struggling every day, fighting every day, but the world was kind of neglecting.

And it's also was very important to bring to the world some important lesson.

Today and last year, it's still a lesson that we need to learn as the world community.

It's a test for us, because today, China is aiming towards Taiwan, towards another democracy.

So today we as the democratic society, having a great moment in history to prove that we are all united.

In 2013, '14, these people united on Maidan and showed that the voice of the people can change their history.

So that's why I immediately went back to Ukraine in 2022 and decided to show through the human stories, through the mothers, through the volunteers, through the doctors, what's happening there on the ground, and bring this to the world's eye to awaken people, to make them to wake up and stand for the democracy.

Because when you will see her movie or my movie, you'll understand Ukrainian people through the history, through the centuries we're standing for democratic values.

They were shield to European Union when Batu Khan was trying to invade Europe, and Ukrainian nation stood as the shield.

So today, the standing again as the shield towards Europe, towards the world.

They're not just defending them, they're fighting for their future, but they're defending the democracy of the world.

So that was the reason to go.

- Evgeny, you're not Ukrainian?

- No.

- Could you talk about a briefly what it means to you as somebody who was born in the Soviet Union to make this movie and tell this story?

- I was born in former Soviet Union and I left in 1991 before the collapse.

You know, first of all, I'm proud American for quite a long time, and I think America gave me ability of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom to be an artist and express myself, and I cherish this.

I had in my history already attempt by Russia to knock me down, even being American.

So I cherish what America gave me.

And I think for me, when I was in Maidan and witnessed the unity of young and old, different societies, different social environments, church, different groups of the churches, different churches, different religious groups, leaders of every church, when I saw young and poor, rich and poor, sorry, young and old, it's all together achieve their victory.

It's really made me to understand that that's the society that I want to bring to the world.

That's some kind of role model of society that I want to see through my art and influence people.

It's a great role model to learn.

That really touched me.

That was one of the main reasons to bring the Maidan story, to show the courageous people, show people who together, despite bullets, despite police batons, despite cold weather, and she can tell you how cold this weather was there.

Literally, they stood for their belief and they proved that together they've been able to achieve everything.

So I think that's made me to tell these stories.

- Thank you.

Lesya, you, at the end of the film, you dedicate, you note that the film is dedicated to your mother.

Do you want to share her story?

- Well, it's a very sensitive subject, so it's very hard for me to talk about it, but I lost my mom in this war.

So she was an established scientist and endocrinologist.

She didn't want to leave from Ukraine.

She was there on every Maidan.

She was there on a student revolution.

She was there on Orange Revolution, and she was there during this Maidan.

And she was one of the founder of Institute of Endocrinology.

And she just didn't want to leave.

She's like, what is gonna happen to the science?

Because science in Ukraine was in a big crisis.

So we were there for five months right before the war and trying to convince her to come with us to America.

And she said, no, I don't want to leave from my country.

And then when Biden was already talking about invasion, many people in Ukraine still didn't believe in this full scale invasion, even us.

We were making this film for nine years.

There was still hope that it's not gonna happen.

I mean, just an image that Russian tanks will come from the Russian border, like straight to Kiev, and it'll take like very short time.

It was just so surreal.

It's like from anti-utopian novels.

We just couldn't believe in that.

And actually the tanks were passing her house.

So I was born and raised in Kiev, but then actually during the revolution we decided to move to Bucha.

So she was in occupied Bucha and during three weeks, like days and nights, we were trying to evacuate her.

I was calling all my friends, all my characters who were on frontline trying to evacuate her.

But it was impossible to enter Bucha because they were shooting civil cars.

They were killing civilians.

So several of my friends tried to make it, but they were stopped at checkpoints, so they didn't make it.

But then we found somebody inside Bucha who helped, who found the last car.

And so just by miracle, we evacuated her from Bucha.

And then we were fighting for her health for three weeks.

And I was begging her not to watch news when Bucha was liberated, but she said it will be not fair.

So she watched the news and when she saw the news about gang rapes of women and children and executing people and torturing and destroying this beautiful little town, her heart stopped.

So it's also very personal for me, and I think there should be international tribunal for war criminals, and it's very important because one of the last words that she said, she said, how can you live in the world where such evil is unpunished?

And I said, mom, we have to punish them.

I mean, they have to be, these war criminals should be punished for what they did and also the democratic world have to make sure of it, so other war criminals don't invade other countries.

So we don't give them this example of, you know, you can annex territories, you can invade other countries, you can commit war crimes against civilians.

It should not happen ever again.

And that's why it's very important, and I appreciate every filmmaker who risked their lives to make the stories about Ukraine, nowadays.

- Thank you, Lesya.

We should say, for the benefit of our listening audience on the radio, that Lesya Kalynska is a Ukrainian filmmaker.

Her film "A Rising Fury" is playing tonight, Friday, March 24th at 5:00 PM at the Cleveland International Film Festival.

Also with us is Evgeny Afineevsky, whose film "Freedom on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom" will play tomorrow on the the 25th.

Both of your films, in many ways, and to just pick up, Lesya, where you just stated that, you know, that crimes should not go unpunished.

Both of your films in many ways are exercises in truth telling, in examining the truth and examining the nature of the truth, because there is so much disinformation involved in this war in particular, perhaps more so than other wars, and certainly in different ways than in other wars.

And Lesya, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the way that your film explores that.

- Can I take a breath?

- You can.

Okay.

Evgeny, why don't you talk first then?

- You know, I think today's dictators, today's dictators took a great lesson from somebody who invented propaganda.

And I'm talking about Putin successfully adapting the playbook of Goebbels, Joseph Goebbels, who invented this in 1939.

Same Goebbels said, take a lie big enough, repeat it over and over, and it becomes truths.

And the same Goebbels also said that the truth is an enemy of the state, which not only Putin, but many others.

I don't want to go through the list of the names.

Many others successfully adopted.

I think since 2010, Russia started really to crunch the truths in former Soviets Union.

And towards Maidan, we all filmmakers who've been on the ground of Ukraine, we already saw how these untruthful propaganda that comes from Russian TV machines was successful dividing families.

I remember how when I was finishing "Winter on Fire," I still was considering to do something, how the situation, winning of Maidan divided families.

I'm sure you're familiar with this thing because some families, older generation was watching Russian TV and younger generation was watching exactly what was happening on the ground and the families were divided.

And it's again, another thing that these dictators launched from the ancient Rome, divide and conquer.

That's another great rule that they trying to apply today.

I can see how today propaganda of Russia trying to divide European Union from United States in inside of Europe where they're trying to adapt different narratives against United States.

So in my movie, I specifically try to show that today's war that we are facing, it's World War III at the beginning.

It may be harsh statement that I'm doing right.

But until we will realize that every century gives us a dictator.

In 1812, we had Napoleon who had imperialistic ambition, and this imperialistic ambition ended badly.

We know all of it.

In 1939, 1945, we had another imperialist who tried to exercise his ambition, imperialist ambition.

We know how it ended.

Today, I guess this century gave us Putin.

we know it will end and badly.

And yes, prosecution will come, maybe for him, maybe for all his gang.

I pray that it'll literally come to him and all who was involved to this situation.

But it's also important to remember that it's not just Putin responsible for that, it's also the society that allowed him to become Putin, to become this monster.

Now in my movie I trying to emphasize that today's World War III is the hybrid form.

You do have missiles.

You do have bombs on the ground killing people.

But you also have the media.

A camera became a weapon.

And it's important to remember that in today's world, propaganda not need visa.

Propaganda can reach our borders and cross them without American visa.

And we may sometimes not feel this, but it's surrounding us.

It's easy piercing borders of European Union.

So I try to emphasize this in my movie and to show contrast of both sides of this wall.

And it's important for me to show how the machine of propaganda is working against Ukraine and against the world, and you can see it in my movie.

And for me, it's important because it's essential part of this war, something that we don't understand, but it affects us.

And for us, it's important to understand how we can protect against the propaganda, because we also through the last years, saw how the propaganda works against us in elections.

So I think it's important to remember that Russia unleash this war against the world, and we are all affected by this.

- Thank you.

Lesya.

- Yeah, I want to continue what, again, you just mentioned.

We have to remember that totalitarian regimes of today are consolidating right now while we are having this lunch.

China, Russia, Saudi Arabia is also leaning towards that direction.

Iran, and they have a lot of money and they have a lot of power and it's easy to tell the lie, but it's very hard to tell the truth.

They use millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars to create propaganda to multiply lies.

And we were witnessing it, right?

Like how in 2013, '14, the world was supporting Ukraine and Maidan, but then when the war started, Russia started making all this false narratives about civil war, you know.

Suddenly when, you know, Ukraine became independent, Georgia became independent, Armenia became independent, suddenly there were all these narratives that Ukrainians are fighting Ukrainians, Georgians are fighting Georgians, Armenians are fighting Armenians.

So that's why they need Russian help, meaning Russian military invasion.

So, and why I'm saying it's so hard to tell the truth because, you know, we have this huge machine of Russian and Chinese propaganda, right?

And what do we have in Ukraine?

We have... - A couple of documentarians.

- Independent filmmakers.

(audience laughing) Yeah, it's funny, but it's not funny.

Like basically, I started filming Maidan just with the help of my family.

And then some people joined, and then we applied to Sundance and some Ukrainian organization supported Razom for Ukraine, for example, was one of the first supportive organizations.

So it was community.

Again, it was filmmaking community and Ukrainian community who supported us was grants.

But how do you fight with independent filmmaking against such machine?

So I felt during all these years, and it was one of the reasons why it took so long to make this film because after the revolution, like during several years, it was so challenging to get any financing.

And shooting a war is very expensive.

I mean, filmmaking is expensive art, but filming a war, it's a very expensive process.

You know, you get a car and then this car is unusable.

You get equipment and then equipment is destroyed.

So, and you have couple of filmmakers who are trained to make this film risking their lives and trying to tell the truth.

Also, just to tell this story, like we, right now we have almost 500 hours of footage and many characters and it was very challenging and very hard to choose which storyline are we keeping in the film and what are we cutting from the film, and understand this story was difficult.

Like, for example, we are unfolding the story of how Russian agents were manipulating and basically zombifying Ukrainian youth in the east, creating this military camps called Strike Ball, and actually turning Ukrainian boys from broken families into separatists.

But nobody knew about it.

It was this hidden strategy of hybrid war that world was not aware about and we were learning about it while filming.

So to actually discover the truth, to film it, to make it happen, it takes years, a lot of effort.

But to tell the lie, it just, you know, it's much easier for the regimes.

- What you've just mentioned is an extraordinary part of the story that you tell.

And I want to describe a little bit.

I realize that for those of you in the room here today, I think many of you understand the history.

There's a lot of people listening on the radio who, you know, are googling Maidan right now and they're not sure how to spell it.

And I think it's important to remember that, you know, there were these series of revolutions, and ultimately Maidan was a moment where the people of Ukraine were very clearly saying, we are orienting ourselves towards Europe.

They were carrying the flag of the European Union in the square.

And that shifted everything.

And meant that Yanukovych who was aligned with Russia was ousted and a democratic revolution was actually in place.

But that began a whole series of efforts by Russia to undermine those efforts.

And you've just described this thing.

From my understanding, Russia was sending agents, and you were trying to recruit one of the characters in your documentary, and Strike Ball that you mentioned is sort of military training exercises where, you know, sort of war games that young people would have putting on military gear, pretending to be in the military and capturing each other's, you know, going against one another, but really is a way to just build this sort of esprit de corps among a group of young people so that they could then sort of turn them into military tools, essentially.

Is that accurate?

- Yeah.

- And that was happening throughout the east in Donbas, and in these areas where we were then told by Russian propagandas that there were Nazis that they were fighting against.

Right?

That's the story?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

So we haven't mentioned Nazis until now, which is fun.

And we haven't actually mentioned President Zelenskyy at all.

And I wanted to point out that as large a figure as he is in the global kind of story or the way the story is told to other nations, he doesn't figure prominently in the stories that both of you tell.

I know he's instrumental to the narrative, but not to the story you tell.

- I met Volodymyr, because for me he was Volodymyr, since 2016, I met him as an actor and I was finishing my other movie in-between in Ukraine and I met him, and we became friends.

But I deliberately showing him in my movie only a couple of times and not as the president, but somebody as ordinary person, because for me he's one of Ukrainian people who are there, who fighting in his own way for this war.

And he's a son of Ukrainian nation.

So that's why for me, I not was focusing on him as the president.

Trust me, he not missing attention.

He gets this attention.

He gives speeches.

But I think for me, it was important to show how ordinary people dealing with this war, how they're fighting.

Because for me, heroes are the Ukrainian people at the end of the day.

It's Ukrainian people who went on the streets and showed that they can change their history.

It's Ukrainian people.

It's the mothers who every night praying that their child will wake up tomorrow morning and fighting for the life of their kids, to connect to mothers like here in this room that every day enjoying a smile of their child when the child is wakes up.

Doctors that are on the grounds of the war without anything, saving lives.

To connect to the doctors here in hospitals where they have everything to save lives.

Volunteers, journalists, many other ordinary people who are everyday, and of course soldiers, who are every day fighting in this war, in this injustice.

So for me, it was important to show ordinary people and connect them to ordinary people across the globe.

And journalists.

I think I'm going back to the narrative.

I fight for the truth.

I'm going back to this and I want to add a couple of things.

I dedicated this movie to the journalists, because last year, March, April, were the most difficult months for me and for my friends, and many of them gone.

You can tell this, that Ukraine lost in March, April, the most big amount of the journalist, photo journalist, and documentarians.

It was a real fight for the truth.

And Russia was hunting all of us there, because Russia wanted to really destroy every voice of truth trying to bring evidence of the war crimes.

So the biggest amount of the journalists, photo reporters, the biggest amount of the documentarians we were killed there in March, April last year.

So I dedicated my movie to all of these people who've been trying to fight for truth, who've been trying to enlighten the world about what's happening.

So that's another argument about how Russia tried to destroy the truth and bring all their false claims.

So, and another thing that I wanted to add to Lesya, because in Ukraine the government supports only small amount of filmmaking, it's really tough for them.

And I've been there.

I'm considering myself still American filmmaker.

I've seen how difficult for them to make movies.

It's really harsh, because they are collecting money through the different campaigns, but it's all on them, through their families, through their friends, how they're making the movies and we need to support them.

I know that at the beginning of the full scale invasion last year, I asked Netflix who was presenting "Winter on Fire" since 2015.

And Reed Hastings, the owner, gave first million dollars to Razom.

And I knew that this literally helped to push things together.

So really, we need to support independent filmmaking.

We need to support Ukrainian voices who trying not only to document the history, but to preserve the history.

Because ultimately, current regimes trying to rewrite the history in their own ways.

And it's important to preserve the history because we can finally learn from the lessons and prevent history to repeat itself.

- We've gotta go to questions from the audience right now.

So if you do have a question, we'll have microphones out here.

And I want to remind our listeners as well, that we're joined by filmmakers Evgeny Afineevsky and Lesya Kalynska, whose films are playing at the Cleveland International Film Festival this weekend.

We welcome questions from everyone, City Club members, guests, students, and those of you joining via our livestream@cityclub.org or radio broadcast on 89.7 Ideastream Public Media.

If you'd like to tweet a question, you can tweet it @thecityclub.

You can also text your question to 330.541.5794.

The number again is 330.541.5794 and our staff will work it into the program.

Let's go to our first question, sir.

- It's actually not a question.

I'd just like to correct the record, Dan.

- [Dan] Thank you.

- You said that Yanukovych was ousted.

He was not.

He had an agreement with the opposition.

He was brokered by Poland, the EU, to have an election in December of 2014.

So, Yanukovych, so the listeners might know, fled.

His security abandoned him.

He saw the writing on the wall.

So he was not ousted 'cause there were democratic processes at work.

He fled.

- Perfect, thank you.

Appreciate the correction.

Next question.

- Yes.

What would you say to the US politicians who say it's not in the best interest of the United States to support Ukraine?

- Lesya.

You want to go first?

(audience laughing) - Okay.

I disagree, (laughing) of course.

And I think, first of all, as a democratic society, we should really fight for democratic values.

This is number one.

Number two, in terms of interest.

I mean, I believe that Ukraine will win, but let's imagine if Ukraine loses.

What happens?

Now, Ukraine is this borderline between democratic world and autocratic world.

Putin is not gonna stop.

So the world will lose this buffer zone.

So Putin will invade other countries.

I don't know which one next, Poland or Lithuania.

And then instead of sending American tanks, USA will have to send their boys to fight for NATO countries.

He might invade Kazakhstan or Asia, you know, we don't know.

But he's definitely going to resurrect Soviet Union or Soviet Bloc.

You know, we saw that he didn't stop after Chechnya.

There was Transnistria in Moldova.

There was a city in the Republic of Georgia.

There is Ukraine, there are all the hybrid attacks in Moldova and Belarus, obviously.

So I think in the best interest of civilized world is to help Ukraine and ideally make Ukraine part of NATOs, so this war does not repeat itself.

So I do think it's in the best interest of civilized world to help Ukraine win and make Ukraine become a part of democratic world.

(audience clapping) - Lesya already said many things.

I just want to be more brief.

I had a conversation with Michael McCaul, congressman, who today is chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Congress.

And Michael said after watching this movie, Michael McCaul, who was watching this movie at the Halifax Security Forum, he said, when they're helping Ukraine, we're helping America by literally fighting our enemy without losing even one American life.

And it's true, because at the end of the day, exactly what just she said, if tomorrow Putin takes over Ukraine, next will be Poland, Baltics, Moldova, and many other countries, exactly like Hitler in Second World War.

That's the imperialistic desire.

Now, if you will follow the Russian State news, you will literally hear from them talking about going towards all these countries.

Plus they threatened multiple times already, Germany and many other European countries.

So at the end of the day, their imperialistic desire is open and they're talking about this.

So it's in our best interest to help Ukraine win and destroy our enemy because they're already on our ground through the media, and I mentioned this before.

So we need to prevent this.

Now, there is also a serious nuclear threat, but I want to take a step back.

It was a Budapest memorandum where we actually signed a guarantee to Ukraine to defend them.

So how about that?

We forgot about this.

So we are responsible for them not developing certain type of weapons.

So we as the big brother, need to stand for them right now.

It's our obligation.

- Next question.

- Well, first of all, thank you very much for your presentation and for your work.

As filmmakers, I'm sure you have a very unique perspective on the events.

You see the granular details through the lens of the camera, but you also need to step back and see how those events unfolding in perspective of the modern history.

And this brings me to my question, what message do you have to those communities and countries who are still undecided, which part of history they are, belong to, and who view the events in Ukraine as a regional conflict?

What would be your message to them?

Thank you.

(speaking in foreign language) - You know, I will give you example.

I've been in Hungary November last year.

Hungary very influenced under the Russian propaganda.

Orban is really best buddy with Putin.

Do Putin have friends?

No.

It's like in 1939 when Germany and Russia signed Molotov-Ribbentrop deal and Russia was sure that they are protected from the Germans to get attacked.

Do Orban, don't know about that?

But he trying to think that it's not gonna repeat in history.

We need to remember that Putin not have friends.

He have friends for the moment.

Tomorrow, if he'll need, he'll go and attack Hungary.

It's the lesson from the history.

So I think what we need to bring as the message and what I trying to bring from the message from my movie, I want to remind to the world, the only way to win today is to be united.

Every dictator trying to divide the world.

I saw it how narratives through Russia already divided UK from European Union.

I spoke with so many people in UK and they don't understand how come the Brexit happens?

But then you are learning about narratives that we are literally put it together.

Then you're learning about narratives, how Russia put in the narrative inside Spain, the famous separation between Spain and Catalonia.

It's divide and conquer.

I see right now.

I just returned from a huge trip with the movie.

I've been at Frankfurt.

I've been at the Munich Security Conference.

We had a screening.

I've been in Vatican and Warsaw and Kyiv, in Lithuania.

I've been through tons of the cities in Ireland.

I see how, for example, Russia right now trying to separate EU from America.

So the only way we can win this is to be together.

Like people on Maidan being together.

You know, on Maidan was a big poster.

You probably remember this big drop of water.

And under this drop of water, it was a sign.

Each of us is a drop of water.

Together win ocean.

And together, people on Maidan as an ocean change the course of history in Europe.

So only together we can win it.

Separately, each of you can be tomorrow on the place of Ukraine.

Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe.

Can you imagine that today, they're in the middle of the war.

Today, they are fighting for their future, for the future of their kids.

So any country today can be in this war.

Pope Francis, I'm going back to one of my previous movies when I was working with him, he said, refugees can happen to you and to me.

Today it's them.

Tomorrow, it may be me.

So it's important to remember this, that tomorrow it can be you.

And if you are not standing as the big family together, who will stand for you?

Yeah, I think that we cannot appease aggressors anymore.

We have to stop them, because, you know, if we see how our neighbor's house at fire and don't help, then next day our house will be on fire.

And you know, it's just so interesting how people in the world watch "Lord of the Rings" or watch "Game of Thrones" and they believe in all these beautiful stories.

But it is happening right now.

And Ukraine is Castle Black.

You know, it's holding.

It's this wall that is holding white walkers, but if the wall is gone, then white workers will be in your home.

That's what I would tell to these countries, that totalitarian regimes are very dangerous.

And if we don't deal with this situation, tomorrow will be much harder than today.

Because Europe and America could face tens of thousands of refugees leaving, and not just from Ukraine.

But let's say from Kazakhstan or from Poland.

And the West will still need to help economically to all these countries suffering.

It's better to contain it now when it's still not too late.

I think humanity should not wait until millions of people die.

Humanity should stop it now.

- Have your films screened at other festivals?

What has the response been from audiences?

- We premiered at Tribeca Film Festival.

And yeah, the premiere was in Lincoln Center, then we had Buffalo Film Festival, then we travel to Europe, Sweden, Norway, Poland.

Then we're here.

And we were also doing impact campaign, which if you're not com familiar with the concept is that the film is just kind of beginning of conversation that help change.

So we've been showing it to ambassadors, to universities, talking with youth, talking with decision makers.

And, you know, in some audiences, people were crying.

In some audiences, they were stronger.

It's very different perception in different countries.

Like for example, in Poland, people were very scared.

Very scared.

They were asking, do you think that Polish society is infiltrated just like Ukrainian society?

In Sweden, people were saying, we wish our cultural policy was different.

We wish we put more financing into learning more about this part of the world, making more films about it.

Norway is very familiar with the situation, (chuckles) like Finland as well.

Like, I remember Norway, some Finnish guy came to me.

He hugged me and he's like, thank you for fighting for us.

In America, some American veteran came and say, when you next time in Ukraine, please tell your people that they're light of our civilization.

You know, it's like we've been receiving very warm reactions and we are very grateful to America for supporting Ukraine, because you're supporting not just Ukrainian lives and Ukraine protecting their land, but you are also supporting democracy itself.

- We started with the premier at the Venice Film Festival, then we got Toronto, then we got Mill Valley, Seattle, Hamptons, Savannah, and many European film festivals, then we returned back to US.

We also tried to target our government and the governments across the globe.

We did presentation at the Halifax Security Forum.

Recently, we did a Munich Security Conference.

I literally, a week ago had a presentation.

Little bit more than a week, I had a presentation in the US Congress.

Michael McCaul, chairman of the Foreign Affairs, who acted together with Senator Chris Coons, saw at the Halifax Security Forum, they brought it to the Congress, and Michael tried to bring all his colleagues from the Foreign Affairs to see the movie.

I think talking about reactions, if American congressman and senator spending four hours on watching something in a participating conversation, it's a huge victory for me as a filmmaker, because usually they're spending 15 minutes and it's already achievement for us, for the humans who come in to literally talk to them.

But we had an hour before the movie, two-hour movie, and then our Q&A, that they both were literally participating and listening.

That was during the Halifax Security Forum.

We just had Michael McCaul a day before he and I traveled to Kyiv on the Munich Security Conference when Michael, literally was talking about prosecution in the crimes.

And in fact, Michael in 21st of February was in Bucha because with the prosecutor general, he's working on a bill of the war crimes right now.

So it was pleasant to see how the movie can impact politicians and awaken their consciousness.

And I think what, as I just mentioned, for us filmmakers to have a movie that is AAA, activism, advocacy, and action or creating a call for action is really important thing when we can create call for action that the audience and for me at every Q&A, somebody from audience always asking how we can help, what shall we do to stop this madness?

So I think for us filmmakers to see this reaction in almost on every Q&A occurred.

No matter if it's abroad in Europe or if it's here in United States, it's a big achievement, because we can cause action from the ordinary people to do something for Ukraine.

To do something for the Ukrainian people or to do something on their local space to call to their politician or to call to somebody who can do something to contribute, to stop this or to spread the truer word about this situation, what's happening in Ukraine.

So that's what was for our movie.

- If I may add just one more thing.

I think what cinema can do.

Cinema can do something that news cannot.

Cinema takes you where you never been before, emotionally.

So of course, films educate, films show you, like for example, in our film we start from 2007 and our last shot is from 2022.

So we tell this big story, but we also make you feel like our main characters, because it's mostly cinema verite film.

We were sleeping with them in the same rooms.

We were in with them during the massacre.

It's just, we are following our characters in this real cinema verite scene, so people can live the life of somebody else and feel it.

And I think this is what is the power of cinema?

- I want to add something.

Compared to the media and news where you see bits and pieces sometimes, our movies have basically a full story.

We have comprehensive story.

We are telling you a story from the beginning till the end, compared to the news that every day taking you to different small segments somewhere on the front lines, but the voice not just in the front lines.

The voice sometimes goes through the centuries.

And for example, I bring in the whole beginning of the Kyiv and Russia and starting from there at certain point to literally bring the main point, again, against propaganda, that it's not Moscow started the first.

It's Kyiv and Russia.

It's Kyiv being older than any place in the former Soviet Union.

And to go from there, educating the audience in a comprehensive story where you can go through this centuries and yes, and be witnessing this through the lens of our cameras.

And like this, we can not only educate our audience, but keep them there going through this history, living this history and understanding the situation.

- Last question.

- Yes, you touched upon it.

But can you elaborate a little bit about the refugee situation, please?

- Well, that's a very, very complicated issue because many, many people left and most Ukrainians left to Europe, but there are some of them here.

And for example, in Warsaw, it was overwhelming how Polish people were helping Ukrainians, have taken them to their homes, and here as well.

Actually, we screened our film in Ridgefield recently, and that was an effort to fundraise for refugees.

So we raised about $50,000 that went back to Ukraine to build shelters in Western Ukraine for refugees from Mariupol and Bucha and other places.

So yeah, this is another thing that how film can become a beginning of conversation for the fundraisers for different initiatives who can help refugees, and democratic societies should definitely address this issue with a big devotion.

- So we are gonna leave it there.

If you want to hear more from either of these filmmakers, I encourage you to go see the films at the film festival.

This afternoon at 5:00, you can see "A Rising Fury."

That's Lesya Kalynska's film.

It's at the KeyBank State Theatre.

And tomorrow afternoon at 2:20 in the Upper Allen Theatre, "Freedom on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom."

Evgeny Afineevsky will be there.

And if you ask him during the Q&A, he'll share the story about showing the film to the Pope.

(Dan laughing) - He (indistinct) refuges from Ukraine.

- Right.

It's extraordinary.

So thank you both so much for joining us today.

Thank you so- - Thank for having us.

- Thank you.

(audience clapping) - For the benefit of our listening audience, I'll say that that is the sound of a standing ovation.

Our forum today is presented in partnership with the 47th Cleveland International Film Festival, which runs through Saturday, April 1st.

We're very grateful for their partnership.

We'd also like to welcome guests at tables hosted by Global Cleveland and the Cleveland Council on World Affairs.

Next Friday, March 31st, we welcome Rhode Island's Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and Dahlia Lithwick of Slate to discuss their new books.

And Wednesday, April 5th, author Lisa Damour will join the US Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy for a live recording of his podcast, "House Calls."

You can learn more about these forums and others at cityclub.org.

That brings us to the end of our forum.

Thank you, Evgeny.

Thank you, Lesya.

Thank you all for being a part of this today.

Our forum is now adjourned.

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