From WXXI news this is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, our connection this hour was made in a small American town Winslow, Arizona.

A great American road trip was unfolding.

When's the last time you took a real road trip out on the road?

For days or weeks on end?

Does this go back to your teenage years?

Your college years?

Have you ever done it at all?

My guest this hour decided it was time to take route 66, just as the so-called Mother Road was getting ready to turn 100 years old, and she traveled all of it more than 2000 miles.

Chicago to Santa Monica.

A three week tour of the heartland of America.

Winslow was special because this particular traveler loves the song Take It Easy by the Eagles, which popularized Winslow.

But her video that she made of this trip.

Wait till you see it.

We're going to have a clip for you coming up.

And if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see some all across this country, some great stories and great little nuggets of wisdom, a lot that she learned.

It was back in 1939, John Steinbeck.

Steinbeck published The Grapes of Wrath.

That's when he called route 66 the Mother Road, and that was obviously a very different time in the country.

People were fleeing the Dust Bowl, route 66 was about opportunity and to look out west, the chance to start new.

Most of the time when we talked to our guest this hour, Western New York native Valery Perry, we're talking about her work with the Democratization Policy Council, based in Eastern Europe.

Today, we're going to talk about what you learned on this road trip, and we're going to talk about her broader work for the council.

Yes, there are recent events we want to talk about.

There are some news events.

You might have seen the president's son getting married funded his wedding party funded by a Russian oligarch.

We're going to talk about the far right's performance in elections in Germany and what that means in the bigger picture, and have a little bit of fun about this road trip.

So a mix today with Doctor Valery Perry, a senior associate with the Democratization Policy Council.

I didn't know you were such a traveler.

Welcome back to the show here.

Thanks, Evan.

No, I mean, I've always loved traveling.

And it was when I started to realize that I had done more road trips in southeastern Europe than I had in the United States, that I realized I needed to up route 66 up on the list.

So in a moment, we'll play part of this video and we'll share the video in our show notes here.

I have to say, I did not know how cool you were.

See, every time we talked to you, there's some pretty heavy subjects that we're talking about.

We're talking about what?

Age?

Democracy.

Movement.

What limits democracy.

You know, what fascism looks like and what efforts to stop it look like.

And here you are just sharing video, a video with your favorite bars in the country and route 66, the best root beer floats you had, the best food, the best corn dogs.

I mean, what a great trip you had.

And it was on a budget.

You said it was.

No, I mean, I'm definitely a budget traveler in general, and route 66 is pretty affordable to do in that sense of stayed in the whole Jones ate it.

I hops, took food in the car, and the fact that there are old timey diners on the way is also I mean, it's something affordable.

And at a time where it seems that, first of all, a lot of people are struggling with the economy and with affordability.

The notion of the road trip has disappeared and has been supplanted by these big budget cruises and Disney trips and these things that assume you have to go into debt when you can actually actually see an amazing set of nature and Americana and just have a good time without having to take out a loan or or no trips or fewer trips.

Triple AA finding that Americans no surprise this year are traveling fewer miles because of gas prices.

No, and I'm fully aware that it's not great timing that we're talking about a road trip now that Americans are paying more for gas and they're accustomed to, though I still remind people that I pay far more in Europe as a normal practice.

Most of your life in Europe now?

Yeah, gas is a lot more expensive.

By the way, when you talk about the diners that you've visited, do you have an intention when you're on this 2000 plus mile trip of trying to see what the locals eat?

Because sometimes these diners are sort of immortalized in Americana and they get a lot of tourists, which is fine.

Which, I mean, you got to do the touristy stuff, but how do you find where the locals are?

To be sure, I did some research in advance.

A friend of mine from Bosnia traveled with me and had seen some videos that sort of also inspired him to want to travel, for example.

And I have to be honest, I'm blanking out now on the small town where it was, but I think it was in Oklahoma, Texas, where we had something called a depression Burger.

I have this written down.

Keep going.

Okay.

And it was just very interesting because driving into a town, you know, you felt like you were coming from the open road and just getting ready to go on the open road.

And this tiny, completely nondescript place on a corner and walking into a place that, it would be very easy to think that it wasn't even open.

And I remember going in and there was a father and daughter having a meal and a couple other people on the side, and then they finished and left, and we ordered our depression burgers and tater tots and fries.

Roberts Grill in El Reno, Oklahoma.

Yes, El Reno, thank you for that.

And and what I really remember is that there was a new show on the TV at the time, and I didn't want to talk about politics.

You know, sometimes you just want to enjoy your tater tots and keep going.

Yeah.

But it was interesting because there was a piece about issues, about youth and boredom and young people not having enough to do, and getting involved in drugs and, guns and everything like that.

And the guy who I don't know if he was the owner, but he seemed like he had been there for a long time.

And I asked him, I'm like, well, what do you think about this?

You know, about?

And he's like, well, you know, back when I was a day you didn't have time to get bored because you came into work and you did your job and you had your responsibilities, and he really had.

I mean, that was a very classic, sort of classic, practical, old home middle America approach to looking at something.

And so I didn't push him any farther on it, but it was, it was one of those interesting moments that's really nice when you aren't sitting in a super crowded place or a chain where the person hasn't been there for decades or something.

Yeah.

And they don't feel like they're performing for you.

They're just talking for a. Exactly.

There was no performance in that interaction.

Yeah.

So you're going to hear a little bit of that depression Burger and more.

Let's let's listen to a clip from the video that Valery produced after traveling all of route 66.

And if you're watching on the Sky news YouTube, you can watch this clip as well.

Pop history and heritage sites.

Wow.

I was impressed with Springfield, Illinois that the beauty of the Capitol building was inspired by European palaces is no exaggeration.

It's a reminder of a time when there was investment and pride in public buildings.

The nearby Lincoln Museum is also impressive.

The curators did a great job explaining the tumultuous time of the Civil War and Lincoln's life and presidential tenure.

The Tim Russert display Undivided Politics was a shout out to Buffalo and quality journalism.

The chain of rocks crossing was just cool.

Walking to Girder Bridge to see the Mississippi for the first time felt like a new stage in the adventure.

I never knew that people could go into the Saint Louis Arch until I started planning the trip.

It provides amazing views and a taste of the great American family attraction.

The Mura Federal Building Memorial Center in Oklahoma City was truly impressive.

I wondered how they would deal with the politics of the 1995 bombing, and they hit the nail on the head in terms of context, everyday heroes and reflection questions that would work in museums everywhere.

Top five food moments.

Carl's ice cream in Illinois took me back to childhood with the menu font, the decor, the mini salt packs, the food and the ice cream rolled in sprinkles.

Long may it serve soft serve.

Dinner at The Big Texan in Amarillo was more experience than meal.

Home of the Eat this 72 ounce steak in an hour and it's free.

It was packed on a weeknight, brought together food, neon, and a classic Texan vibe, and is clearly loved by locals and visitors alike.

Fun fact 1 in 10 of the men who tried the meat challenged succeed, while 1 in 2 women do.

A root beer float at Peggy Susan Yamo, California was exactly as it should be, served with a side of extra root beer at the counter.

The pies were great, too, I'll admit.

The decor in the women's bathroom made me pause, and I can't forget the Cozy Dog in Illinois, home of the world's first corn dog.

But don't call it that a depression burger in El Reno, Oklahoma, and a lot of loaded fries along the way.

All right, so that's a little flavor from 2000 plus miles on route 66 with Valery Perry.

The full video will post in our show our show notes, and you got to check it out.

I mean, I'm learning a lot about the country just watching your video, how much did you feel like it was an education for you?

You're supposed to be the scholar here.

Valery Perry, what did you learn?

Oh, no.

I think that's why it was really good to sort of come in, do this trip again, and sort of plug in with regular people as opposed to a lot of the toxic poison you get on social media.

And the online environmental policy conferences you have to go to and things like it's different.

I mean, that's a very specific set of people, but the vast majority of people want to live their lives and maybe do something on the weekends or for their summer holiday.

And I what worries me, too, is thinking about the fact that so many people don't really get in the car and do a road trip increases the distance among people because they're not going to Saint Louis.

That sort of, seeing as it may be below them, are not good enough.

If everybody thinks that they need to go to Orlando or take a cruise to Alaska or something like that, when there's really a lot that can sort of bring people together if they actually remembered it.

And it was pretty interesting that we ran into a number of European, travelers along the way.

And I've heard and have read since that a lot of Europeans rented a classic car or motorcycles and make the drive in a very intentional way that I'm not sure if a lot of Americans themselves are always doing.

So let's talk about some of what you saw in terms of the struggles of route 66.

And you've written that the number of small towns for the economic downturn was evident.

It is really evident in the main streets.

So, you know, I know one of the things that you were musing about was how did the United States get to be this place where Main Street was kind of feel sold out to big bucks?

And you can imagine generations ago, sometimes it's commemorated in monuments and landmarks, but there's not a whole lot of small town main streets that are thriving, thriving the way they were.

And this is where, you know, reading some of the work that you've done and watching this video, this is where I think, you know, I know we're all divided politically, but forget about the cynicism of the top level politics.

Think about the average American.

If you live in those areas.

And there used to be factories and they used to be manufacturing bases, you can understand why tariffs sound like a good idea.

You can understand why I'm doing something different to shake things up feels at least like a at least it's not the same old thing that got us here.

And I'm sure you heard some of that along the way.

Sure.

No, I definitely saw it.

I mean, there were so many times driving through towns that were either a destination or passing or stopping to get gas, etc., where, you know, you saw what looked like the classic American town or village.

You know, the red brick buildings, the courthouse, the old cinema that's probably being closed down because now there's a cineplex out in the suburbs, etc.

and on the one hand, there were so many, boarded up buildings or thing a places that you could tell hadn't been used.

But on the other hand, you saw a lot of places where there were clearly a mural and art competitions to sort of paint the outsides of the brick buildings or efforts to try to, sort of I don't want to use the term gentrify, but, you know, people opening up craft shops and tourist shops and, gourmet ice cream shops, etc.

in the downtown area, which shows that there's an interest in doing it.

And yet I couldn't help but think, you know, it's great that there are people here who are trying to do this, trying to revive these places, but it seems like every single, every single policy, political and financial decision that's being adopted at the state or national level is pushing against that, you know, and I can't I've been thinking for years since really the pandemic to be honest, that such an opportunity was missed.

I mean, by both administrations in a certain way, to sort of use the time of at home work, to use the introduction of a lot of these remote tools to sort of remind people, you know, hey, maybe you can live in the place where you want to live.

Maybe you can live in a place where, sure, you have a car, but you don't have to get in the car to go buy a gallon of milk, you know, and where you can actually have a bit more of that community that people say they want, that they watch every year on hallmark Christmas movies.

And yet, which is only available to the richest people who live in the richest places.

Was there a small town where you thought, oh, this has gone better than most of the places?

Oh, that's an interesting question.

It is not helpful.

It is not inspiring that you don't have an immediate answer.

No, no.

And you're right.

I mean, there was, it was interesting being in Springfield, Illinois, where some of these really great museums were.

And I met actually, a friend of mine who happened to be in town visiting his mother.

And what was frustrating was that even though we went to a really nice, like, brew pub, you know that clearly it was right downtown, a stone's throw from the courthouse.

When we left at the fairly early hour at, let's say, 9 p.m., the streets were so dark and empty that we were joking that it felt like walking into like a zombie apocalypse movie or something like that.

And so 9 p.m.. Yes, yes.

And so even though again, you've got these seeds, but you don't really have the, the momentum that would really help to kickstart that.

And just looking at the image here in the studio of Rochester, you know, I mean, it can look really beautiful.

We just went to a Fringe Festival event the other night, which is great.

But still, it's not what you would normally sort of see as terms of being a community, yet where it's vibrant, where people can live, work, study, do what they want to do in a small place, you know, if you still are going to be driving to where you're going, parking the car and leaving.

And and I think part of this is related to America's own, unique cultural experience over the past 50 or 60 years.

But a lot of it's also policy choices.

Well, you you bring up an interesting point about what Americans say when they are polled about how they wish they could live.

A lot of Americans would say, I want to be a walkable place where I can have a car, but I don't need it.

I can get to the store, my kids can get to school.

But either by policy, which is above a lot of Americans heads, or just their own choices, it doesn't look like to me, it doesn't look as intentional as Europeans are about that.

And maybe that's because we don't have rail in public transport.

I don't know if that's the big factor.

I mean, some of it's there, but I think it's also, Europe has been a bit delayed in terms of the big box stores on the outskirts of town.

There's more, specific and well defined and non-negotiable green rings around cities outside of which you really can't build.

And, you know, sure.

People economist would say, well, Valery, we need to support growth, you know, and, regulations against building zoning regulations, etc.

will stop that.

And sure, I can understand there are certain, financial and economic arguments, but at the end of the day, economics and finance should serve people should serve citizens should serve families.

And it sometimes seems that, a lot of communities in the United States have lost track of that.

So as we go throughout this hour here, I'm going to welcome your feedback.

If you want to email the program.

As always, the email address is Connections@i.org, we're talking to Valery Perry, my guest, who is a senior associate for the Democratization Policy Council.

Remind people where that is based.

Well we are non co-located.

I'm based in Sarajevo, but I have colleagues in Berlin and Brussels as well.

Okay.

And but Valery is a western New York native back here periodically.

We love having her in studio, to get her insights about things that are happening around the world.

We're going to do that coming up here, but we're talking about her trip from Chicago to Santa Monica on route 66, all 22, 2400 miles.

She actually did some side trips, started in Buffalo, did Niagara Falls at Cleveland.

Cleveland's the best city.

I'm from Cleveland.

And also did I think Vegas, Vegas in the Grand Canyon or Vegas in the Grand Canyon.

So this was a big, big trip.

And, we're inviting your feedback on the great American road trip, as you see it.

Listener.

So what's the last great road trip you tour?

Have you been on route 66?

I'm very curious about that.

Route 66 turns 100 years old this year.

Here, so connection's a cyborg.

If you're watching on YouTube, you can join the chat.

As always, you can call the program toll free.

844295 talk.

It's 84429582552636.

I have to call from Rochester.

2639994.

Greg wanted to know if you felt unsafe anywhere on the trip.

I was driving with a friend, which is always better.

So.

I mean, I didn't, beyond that, there was one funny evening in Albuquerque where it had been an unintentional stop and so pulled up to a motel, which looks like it could have been the site of a murder in a movie from, like, 1974.

And, it was a little dodgy, like the lock on the door didn't work.

So even though I had a friend traveling with me, I'm not going to lie when I say I moved a table in front of it and we got out of town at about six in the morning to head for breakfast because it was kind of weird, but, but to be honest, that's a story I wouldn't have had if I would have been in a marriott.

Okay.

And here you are, all in one piece.

Exactly.

Okay.

And Gary says my wife and I have driven across the U.S seven times.

Once on Harleys.

It's eye opening.

How big this country is and how much alike we are.

No matter the political distance.

Plus, there is something special about the Corn Palace.

Everyone should do it at least once I missed, I did not see the Corn Palace, but that's just another sign that there are so many things to see, depending on which route you take.

But I think the diversity of the route was what's also really interesting, starting in Chicago and going through that formerly industrial area, coming down into the Midwest, then coming into the plains of Oklahoma, where it was really interesting in Oklahoma and Texas to see how flat it is.

But the huge number of wind turbines in that part of the country were you're not allowed to talk about green energy, but they recognize that this is the way that they're going and that this is the way of the future.

And then going into the southwest where you've got the amazing canyons and, really that desert landscape emerging and then rolling into California, where you start to see so much of the California nostalgia, either from the architecture coming from the 60s, etc., and then coming on to the, the ocean, Greg emailed to ask about your safety.

I want to ask about maybe a related, but a different thought, but where people generally kind.

Did you enjoy meeting people and were people open to conversation all throughout this country?

Yeah.

No, they were.

And the friend of mine who was traveling, was from Bosnia.

So that's always a really interesting conversation piece as well.

But no right across the board, I mean, and that and that's one a lot of people, especially people who might not agree with some of what I'm saying was say, oh, here's Valery, she's so anti-america she hates.

I started out at, which is simply not true.

And one thing I will give credit to people in the United States for is just really being friendly and open.

You know, if you're sitting in a diner, if you want to talk to somebody, whether another patron or someone working there, you probably can.

And, that's not always as common traveling around Europe.

I mean, it can happen depending on where you are.

But I do think that people in the United States, across the country are generally curious.

If you talk to them and are friendly, they're going to talk to you and be friendly to.

And that really creates a lot of these person to person, connections.

And that's why I'm also quite troubled whenever I walk into a fast food joint anywhere now, and you see that they want you to order everything on video screens, the fact that we're taking people out of every transaction to make everything video and computerized, etc., we're just to stop because it's those small interactions that remind us that we're human.

And yet again, there seems to be no conversation about this.

Well, it's interesting you say that because, I try to stay off social media only because social media is bad and I like things that are not bad, especially for my mental health.

But a lot of the conversation about I recently, it's kind of got me thinking in different directions.

And one of the things that I've been sort of arguing with people about lately is even when we talk about an AI future where we are not perishing, even like the good AI future is not all that appealing to me.

Yes, I want the medical advancements, and it seems like the pro AI people.

I was like, what do you just want?

Cancer forever?

And like, yes, that's what I wanted.

Cancer forever.

Everybody wants medical advancements.

But then Mark Zuckerberg said the other day he thinks within five years, almost every person alive will have an AI agent basically planning your life for you, running your calendar, doing all the booking and planning.

And you don't have to think about any of that.

And I'm going like, I'm thinking about the road trip that you just took.

Half the fun is the planning.

It's the research.

I don't want an AI agent doing that.

Why are we moving into this future so quickly when I think a lot of people don't want it?

Exactly.

And we haven't learned at all from what we saw with social media developing in the late 2000 and and the need to regulate that, you know, the whole idea of just sort of, doing whatever you want now and then, asking forgiveness later is should not be the basis of social and cultural and political development in the United States.

And if it's really a shame that we don't seem to have the political structure or enough politicians who are prepared to push back against this and to say, well, wait a minute, there is a way that we should be able to think about this in terms of national security and medical advances like you've just noted.

But we also need to think about what this means in terms of education and children and, and, really just making sure that human beings stay at the center of it because, as you mentioned, part of the magic of anything in life is planning the journey and not just having I put it together, spit it out, and eventually even put you in a self-driving car and drive.

You want it like you.

You need to have the serendipity.

You need to have the randomness.

And unfortunately, again, if you have people who are thinking that everything is just an algorithm, then of course they're going to balance everything they're doing in that way.

A lot of times people ask me, you know, what gives me hope in terms of the fact that you have people talking about a p doom assessment in terms of the probability of doom, about when AI is going to kill us all.

And I have to be honest, I'm glad that we are finally seeing more of a critical mass, for example, against AI and against data centers.

And I think it's good that people are opening their eyes.

They're thinking about this, and they're questioning why so many of these choices are not only being made without their feedback, but are often being pressured through NDAs being signed at the local level of government.

And I'm hoping this will be a turning point in terms of the way that people interact with the tech companies.

The self-driving cars thing is interesting because when you do more than 2000 miles as you did, I would think that you have to enjoy being on the road.

I mean, most people are who hate being in a car.

Are not doing a road trip like this.

You grew up loving being on the road.

It's I mean, it's fun.

I remember even in college we drove down to Daytona, a bunch of us from U of our for a spring break one year.

And there is something sort of that feels good about being on the road.

I mean, I've all even now when a DPC Democratization Policy Council, whenever possible, we try to drive to where we're going instead of just flying, it back in June, we went to Bucharest, Romania, and she's now in Moldova.

And while everybody else for this conference flew in from Brussels to the capital, from Paris to the capital, from wherever we drove.

And it took us six days to get there.

But it was amazing to be reminded of how long it takes from place to place, but really how close it was as well.

And to actually see what it was like to go from Bosnia to Serbia to Romania and into Moldova.

And it gave us a much better sense of what we should be thinking about in terms of policy.

And it also really gave us something that people who are just flying from airport to airport don't get.

And this is something that I think we can bring back to the United States as well.

I mean, when you've got, senators or congresspeople in DC, you know, just sort of flying from here to there, you know, flying to meet their funders and they're doing fundraisers in hotel rooms, then they're not going to get the Depression Burger.

You know, they're not really seeing what's going on outside of some of the scripted events that we're going to see at a state fair or in Iowa every four years.

My a little aside on the self-driving cars thing is, for the people who are concerned about AI, we talked a week ago about how this is becoming a Partizan conversation, even though the polling shows that people are pretty united against AI.

This is actually one of the rare places that you can get people to agree.

But on the policy level, on the elite level, it's dividing pretty quickly from the white House on down.

It's becoming a right left thing.

And one of the things that like comes to my mind is, well, just tell people they're going to take your cars away.

They're going to have self-driving cars.

People in this country, the way that you drive is part of your identity for a lot of people, not for everybody, but some people love to be out on the road.

They love to think about their next car purchase.

They don't want someone driving for them, even though I admit it would be safer to go to self-driving cars for everyone.

Tens of thousands of people are injured or killed in cars.

I acknowledge all that.

But tell people you're going to lose this part of your identity.

I don't think people want that.

I think you just got a good campaign slogan for your next run, because that means a lot.

I don't know about that.

No, but you can take your steering wheel out of my cold, dead hand because people do.

See?

There you go.

You're the writer.

People do like to have a sense of control and agency.

And even though the statistics you're mentioning, are correct and that so many people don't even think about how dangerous it can be to get into a car.

It does at least give us a sense of freedom to turn left when we want to.

And even more, I am troubled just by the fact that as we move more into an AI future, and as we see tech and hacking against systems grow more, we have to start wondering is like, do we really trust in all of the safeguards that they say are in the car?

A couple of years ago, I remember a journalist getting into a self-driving car while there was a planned hacking attempt into the system, and the journalist noted how just concerning it was that all of a sudden, when he was pushing on the brake, the car was speeding up, or when he wanted to go straight, the self-driving unit had him going off a ramp.

And so I think we really just again, I'm not saying I'm against it entirely, but I'm thinking that people should understand what they're being pushed into and understand the pros and cons and make sure that there's a stop button when they need it.

All right.

Before we take a break here, a couple other points here.

Tom wants to know if you tried that 72 ounce steak.

I did not I here was that one again.

It was in, the big Texan in Amarillo, Texas, the Big Tex in Amarillo, Texas, a 72 ounce.

It was I had a I think I had a 24 ounce piece of salmon, which I know is a little embarrassing in Texas, but I'm not.

But my my friend who I was traveling with had a massive steak, but not that big one.

You have to eat it in an hour, which is also insane to complete the challenge.

And in addition to the 72 on steak, you have to eat a salad, some rolls, some potatoes, and, some oh, and 4 or 5 shrimp.

So it's it's a lot.

And the waiter again, an example of a very nice a conversation.

The waiter had mentioned that when you see a really big burly often guy sit down, that they were not the ones who were likely to finish.

It was the skinny men and women who would come in, just get down to business and eat it all, and the women have a higher rate of success than the men.

And I think some of that is related to differences in the way, gender sort of have confidence.

Like, I think that the women who sit down to do it know they can do it.

Or I suspect that a lot of men, you know, sort of teased by their friends to go try it and then end up just eating a lot of meat.

Yeah.

Men also maybe unearned confidence.

Possible bravado possibly.

But it's and again, it's a it was a great tradition and it was a, it was a weeknight.

The place was packed.

And I'm again, I'm not a huge steakhouse person, but it was it was really something you have to do when you're on the road.

All right.

And I'm going to read David's email.

We're going to steer a little bit different direction in our second half hour with my guest, Valery Perry from the, the Democratization Policy Council, which is a Western New York native.

We're talking about her road trip doing all of route 66 as route 66 turns 100 years old.

Some of the lessons she learned from that.

But we're also going to talk about the work she's doing.

In places around the world.

And David in Ovid writes this, he says Americans always deny the reality of it.

But this country is not and never has been a democracy.

It is not even a very democratic republic.

There is and always has been an obsession with excluding people from voting.

We have more trouble with elections than most advanced countries.

Throw in widespread gerrymandering and all manner of imaginative schemes for voter suppression, and the thought that this is a democracy is laughable.

You have to literally ignore the very definition of the world of the word.

Nice scenery and interesting destinations do not make a democracy.

Valery didn't include that in her video, she just did the scenery part.

But let's come back from our only break, and we're going to talk to Doctor Perry about David's note, and we're going to talk about some of the events that have gotten the attention of people like Valery and her colleagues around the world, including a Russian oligarch paying for a Trump family wedding or the recent elections in Germany, and more.

It's all coming up on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, we stay on the theme of travel when we bring back a recent conversation with two women traveling the world from Rochester, one permanently or semi permanently.

For years, Christina Lobo decided to leave Rochester and get on the road and live on the road with her husband and daughter.

See the world in a very different way.

Alison Konecki decided with her husband to get out and spend months all over the world on a budget, and they're going to talk about how they did it next.

Our support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bob Johnson Auto group.com.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, doctor Valery Perry, spends a lot of her working time looking at issues related to democratic systems and the Democratization Policy Council, I'm sure, has, a lot to say when an oligarch pays for a wedding or things like that, which we'll talk about, but let's get David's email here.

So David in Ovid says, hey, great road trip.

A lot of great scenery in this country, but we're not a democracy.

We've never been a democracy where I've been a very democratic republic for all the reasons he laid out.

What do you think?

I mean, he's not incorrect in noting that it's an imperfect system, and there are ups and downs throughout the 250 years of the, of the country.

However, I think one of the big saving graces of the way the United States is structured, which relates both to the Constitution and its history, but also just the size of the country, is that so much is devolved.

And even when you see, things going on, whether it was in, Nixon's, DC in America in the 70s or what we look at today in terms of the, the sort of seizing of his executive power, at the expense of representative power and the way that many people would say that the courts have been captured.

We are still seeing so much good democratic participation and governmental action at the lower levels, whether that would be in different municipalities, where they suddenly are listening to people who are complaining.

We're seeing more people realize that, you know what?

You can't just sit home.

You need to go to a municipal council assembly, a town council assembly, etc.

and the whole notion of states being the laboratories of democracy, it's a bit hokey, but also it's what really distinguishes and prevents the United States from total autocratic takeover, which is, resilience point.

Okay.

So it sounds like you wouldn't go as far as David in terms of how strong his negative assessment is.

Not yet.

But ask me again in 2 to 4 years, okay.

I mean, that's a concerning comment.

And maybe part of the reason is, while all of the safeguards that you're talking about at the local level are in place, I know you're concerned with what's happening at the top level, and I want to play a clip, if we could, from, a comment made by the Vice president of the United States, JD Vance.

He was on the diary of a CEO podcast back in June talking about the president in a way that, to my ear, I only really hear this kind of talk in places like North Korea and Russia.

And now this is how he's talking about Donald Trump.

Let's listen.

And it's interesting that so many people like, you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ test with the other 45, 46 presidents that the United States has had, I guarantee he he'd be either near the top or at the top.

Again, that's not the vice president saying, hey, look, don't underestimate his political acumen, his intelligence, how intuitive he is.

People don't see him working hard behind the scenes like I do.

Those are all things that are normal things a VP would say.

He's saying, give an IQ test to every president who's ever lived, and Donald Trump is at the top.

I don't get it.

Tell me, how does that hit your ears?

I mean, I think it's another example of a performative ritual of subservience, that we see from so many members of the administration in terms of trying to perform for an audience of one, so that there's this constant jockeying in a very arbitrary and unpredictable personality based system to stay in that person's good graces.

I mean, it's not a secret that people are already thinking, you know, are Vance or Marco Rubio going to be positioning themselves to run for the presidency and in the next presidential election?

But I think what also really worries me about words like that coming from the vice president or others in positions of power, is that it's contributing to this cult of personality.

It's contributing to a warped reading of history and reality.

And I, I also worry that it's setting the scenes in some ways, perhaps to try to sort of keep a Trump dynasty alive, that even if for some reason we didn't see Vance or Rubio emerge to the top among Republican candidates in the future, it's not hard to imagine that, for example, the current president might want to see, Donald Trump Jr.

Or I can imagine him getting a certain pleasure of seeing his daughter running, because he would love to be able to claim that, you know, it was a Trump woman who was the first female president, but so far, it does seem that, Don Jr is positioning himself to be one of the top advisors and, positioning himself for a possible role post, Donald.

Well, let's talk about Don Jr.

So he gets married and it is a Russian oligarch who has, a very if you read about who this person is, there's a lot of very troubling things about this person.

This is not just a rich person.

This is someone very tied to Vladimir Putin, very tied to possible human rights abuses for a long time.

And now he is apparently one of the best friends of Donald Trump Jr in his new wife.

And so he ends up paying a lot of money to for their wedding party and says, was just this said this is just a gift.

Our friends not allowed to give you gifts.

Well, this happens to be a Russian oligarch very close to Putin.

And I want to just say this because somebody is going to email me and I want to head this off.

So I'm going to ask you first, are you uncomfortable with some of the way that Hunter Biden has used his connections?

Sure.

No, I mean, I, I've always been in support of very strong anti corruption and anti self-dealing rules and regulations because corruption is not compatible with the democratic system.

And so sure, I mean, we should make sure that there's anti nepotism rules, that there are standards etc.. But the problem with the current administration is that it's bent, it's on steroids.

I mean, the amount of money that is being collected, either through the crypto business, through different business deals being made and through any of this, diplomacy that's being, conducted not by the organs of the State Department or security, or the different institutions that have traditionally ensured security in the United States.

But by Trump's son in law, his, buddy Steve Visa, etc., it it just creates the perception of corruption and the reality of corruption on a massive scale.

I mean, and what's just even more ludicrous about this wedding, I mean, this is a story that could have been in The Onion a few years ago.

It was just so crazy.

Is that, it wasn't a lot of money.

I mean, why why would you take a gift like this when you've already got so much money?

It's really shows the sense that, like a sense of impunity, like, I can do this because of who I am, and I don't need to be worried about it.

So to put more of, like, a point on that to the average human being, it's a lot of money.

It's a it was like a six figure, like quarter million dollar wedding.

So the average human being could never afford that.

But if you're in the Trump family, of course you can.

So why are you taking a Russian oligarchs money?

So but but put this in very real terms.

When people hear that they go, okay, well it looks kind of unseemly, but like, what's the actual tangible risk there?

I mean, just go back and watch The Godfather and see, you know, at some point in the future, at some time, I'm going to need a favor from you.

And that's exactly how these systems work.

And so the notion that a Russian oligarch, and I think that the very good reporting on this by ProPublica noted that they've only known each other a handful of years.

It's not even like it's going back ten years.

It's a very new relationship.

So the notion that there is some blood bond in friendship is crazy.

What do what do the Russians think they're getting from this?

And how is it possible that anyone with any, pride or intelligence is not going to think that at some point there's going to be a request for a quid pro quo in return?

That's how mob politics work.

How would this play in, in, in Europe if this happened in Europe?

I mean, would it be a big scandal?

Well, unfortunately there's been a lot of Russian oligarchs buying a lot in London, etc.. There's been more attention on this, over the years.

We've seen a lot of criticism in Germany when, one of the former prime ministers had some very strong ties with Russian oligarchs and politicians in the energy industry.

And so one good thing about the fact that things have gotten so bad since the Russian invasion of Ukraine is that there's more awareness of all of this, and there's at least a light being shined on it.

Unfortunately for a number of years, a lot of these unsavory and questionable business deals were just considered to be part of doing business, were just considered to be the way capitalism works.

But unfortunately, it's corrosive the way it works, and it corrodes the democratic systems from which they're coming.

So in the future, if Don Jr actually has a career in politics, you're worried about the groundwork being laid for influence?

No, definitely.

Or even now.

I mean, I think there's a strong it's a good point.

There's a strong reason for us to be worried about any deals being made by this administration, because there's so very often a family tie, sometimes directly to some company that will profit.

Now that we're seeing the extreme hunger from this, administration for energy supplies and selling energy and buying energy, etc., eventually you get to a point where this is going to come to Russia, which is a big energy supplier.

And just recently we saw that Trump wants to invite Putin to, I think, the G20, much to the consternation of many others in the G20, because they're saying, well, wait a minute, he he has been banned from participating in these because of the invasion of Ukraine and other, abuses.

Why are you basically offering this without getting anything in return?

And this is a common thing that we see with Donald Trump.

He thinks he's the master negotiator.

He thinks he's very good at making the deals, but he gives things away without getting anything in return.

Inviting Putin to something like a G20 or some other summit should be a privilege that is achieved after some improvements have been made in the relationship, after we've seen a willingness to sit down and negotiate in good faith about ending the war in Ukraine, not giving it away first.

Okay, let me read a couple of comments.

Dallas is, objecting, I think, objecting a little bit to some of the recent talk here.

He says it seems to be very important to liberals to affirm Trump is dumb.

And he says, I like that you spend a lot of time trying to come up with ways that Trump will be a dictator someday in the future.

Those are two separate points.

And let me just kind of address that, and then I'll let Valery jump in.

Dallas, I have no desire to try to convince people that the president, the United States, is dumb.

I'm simply asking you, have you ever heard in this country the kind of obsequious ness that we heard from J.D.

Vance saying that Donald Trump is not just smart.

He would be the number one smartest American president ever.

If only we could IQ test every president who's ever lived.

What is the purpose of that?

Does that not sound to you like, yeah.

Our leader in North Korea got 97% of the election, so everybody loves him.

He's the greatest leader ever.

And there's a bar of silliness that starts to look not just obsequious, but but you start wondering, what is the point of this?

Because nobody actually believes that J.D.

Vance doesn't believe that.

Of course he doesn't believe that.

But then the other part is, this isn't about trying to make it seem like he's going to be a dictator in the future.

This is asking about the erosion of democratic norms now.

And the reason I brought up Hunter Biden is I knew that somebody is going to say, well, you never talked about the Bidens.

We've done entire shows on the Biden pardons.

I think Doctor Perry has talked about the Biden, the Biden pardons, as however you feel about what was coming with his next administration.

There is a corrosive ness to using pardons in the way that Joe Biden used them.

I'm sorry if you're a fan of Joe Biden.

So we talk about this all the time and we try to assess it's not just you're either perfectly democratic or you're in a dictatorship.

That's a sliding scale.

And I want you to respond to some of what you see there.

I mean, I guess what I would ask your caller to consider is to look at the levers of power and control that has been taken by this administration and the extent to which so many different, watchdog agencies, independent watchdog bodies, have been defanged or set aside or even just destroyed.

And how would he like to be living in two years if there's a Democratic president, a Democratic Congress, House of Representatives and Senate, would he want someone from the other side similarly exercising power without any checks and balances?

My guess would be no.

Because again, the problem with all of this and the problem with the core of the unitary executive authority theory, which again, is an absurd theory that was never taken seriously by legal scholars until a constituency for it was specifically built by those promoting it.

Is that it's just open for abuse.

And so we should be thinking, you know what?

Okay, I got someone who's very happy with what they're seeing now, and things that were just poking at the current administration should think about whether or not he would be happy to see a future democratic government doing all of the same things without going through processes, without going through the procedures, without the consultations and the watchdogs.

And my guess is he would say no, let me grab another phone call or feedback from the audience.

This is Andrew.

And around the coin.

Hey, Andrew.

Go ahead.

Hey.

Yeah, along those lines, Valery, which you're right, but this is why stupid.

What's his name?

Donald Trump Jr took that money.

He should have never done that.

He's, he's saying that Hunter Biden is going to get a pardon.

And so he's saying, well, I'm going to get a pardon too.

So I do stupid, I can do stupid stuff.

So and by the way, you mentioned The Godfather.

That thing goes all the way.

That principle goes all the way back to Genesis with Abraham wouldn't take a pair of shoelaces from a guy because he said, oh, no, I know what you're up to.

You're going to want something later.

Well, that's a really read it in Genesis after the war.

It's not a bad call, Andrew.

Oh, so go ahead.

Valery.

No.

Interesting.

No, I mean, I think, I guess all I can say is, don't we all deserve better than enabling a system in which one person in their family can seize so much power and hold so much impunity?

And don't we want to learn from this experience, or even, let's say, the experience of the past 20 years, 30 years, whatever time frame you want to take to make the system better.

The pardon issue is an interesting one, because the power of the pardon is quite clearly defined in the Constitution.

But that doesn't mean that there can't be certain guardrails put into place if this was adopted, if there were constitutional amendments adopted as a part of the learning from this entire system.

And I guess, again, it's again coming just back to like what you learn as a child.

Remember that book?

Like, everything I ever needed to know I learned in kindergarten is this is simply not fair.

It's not fair that there's two separate, systems of justice, that there are two separate systems for white collar criminals versus blue collar criminals, for the rich and the poor.

And at a time where people are waking up to the rampant inequality in terms of, money, but also even opportunity, which is only going to get worse as the jobs market is squeezed as companies race to shed humans to put in really crummy chat bots, that you're going to be on a phone tree on for hours of your life.

And people need to be thinking, oh no, this is not the way we want to live.

And again, the good thing is that, politicians at different levels, local politicians, state assembly people, etc.

are starting to realize that they might be able to do better with their own career if they get on the right side of history.

And I think it was interesting when you mentioned, shortly before of the gap between the way we're seeing citizens react to AI and data centers and this whole, tech takeover versus the elites, and we need to keep asking, why are the elites so on board with accelerating this process?

It's because of the idea of self profit among many, or the fact that they are being obsequious to Trump and just don't want to push back.

But I think that's going to change because people are waking up to these possible Terminator scenarios in the future.

All right.

So I've got a lot to squeeze in in the next couple minutes.

I will just say to Andrew, the one main difference I see with Biden and Hunter Biden, Dan Jr, aside from the scale of corruption, because the scale right now is it's like a curve going straight up.

Hunter Biden denied for a long time that he was benefiting Burisma, all these charges because the Biden family knew that if it came out, it was wrong.

And they they knew it was wrong and they tried to deny it.

Now, you know, Hunter, of course you're right with pardons.

Pardons are very helpful.

But they knew it was wrong.

The Trump family is trying to tell you that what they're doing is normal, that it's okay, and they're trying to normalize something that is pretty dark and that's not the same thing.

And that can be really dangerous if we let it become normal.

That's how I would say it.

No, I think that's a good point.

And I think a lot of this is, again, pushing people little by little to think that they have no agency.

This is the way it's always been.

There's nothing we can do.

Just keep your head down, live your own life and not get worried about it.

And that is fundamentally disempowering.

And it's fundamentally going to further contribute to the corrosion of the democratic system that we see.

I did a talk with a bunch of students, University of Rochester last week, which was pretty interesting, and they had some really great questions about careers in this field.

And, what I've been doing and some thoughts on these.

And it was quite worrying to hear a lot of the questions sort of already spoke to the fact of like, well, what can we do?

Like we can't have a protest on campus unless we get a permit and they don't always give permits.

I mean, the very rights that we have seen in terms of pushing forward in the country, whether it would be labor rights, civil rights, women's rights, so much of it has been squeezed over the past 25 years, plus, by the notion of, well, you can't assemble unless you have a permit because of security.

Well, I mean, it's that old saying about if, you know, if you're willing to give up liberty because you want security, then you deserve neither.

And we're getting to that point right now where people need to be thinking about whether or not, they feel that they even have the ability to demonstrate and to show their dissatisfaction in a meaningful way.

Three questions you got to condense thought to here we I move fast.

Are you concerned about the security of American elections this fall, or at least some kind of federal intervention, suspension, etc.?

I'm most worried about just a general, a lack of trust that's being promoted so that if the results are something the administration doesn't like, then they can use disinformation to undermine implementation.

Okay, what do we learn in Germany?

So the far right does very well there.

But it looks like there are enough.

Parliamentary politics are different for Americans.

We have to do a lot of study to understand them because we don't have them here.

There's enough coalitions that can go against them as voting blocs or how's it going to work?

What do you see?

It's interesting that the far right party that won in that state, has been working mostly with a far left nationalist party to put together enough votes or so that, sorry, horseshoe politics kind of, but also just trying to find a marriage of convenience because so many of the regular parties will not go into coalition.

This demonstrates the power of polarization, the extent of grievance, and the lack of real options and programs being offered by mainstream parties.

That's pushing people who have already been frustrated with the change since the Cold War and the reintegration of the East into the West.

Okay, lastly, Charlie emails to say fabulous guest, get Valery back.

We have Valery back too much.

We worry that we dominate your time here, but you're very kind to get it.

So Charlie says, what a fabulous guest.

I took my kids on two cross-country trips, hit all 48 lower states.

They still talk about it.

They know the United States better.

The farther you go, the closer you get.

I mean, final thoughts from you on that.

Get in the car and go someplace that's out of your comfort zone.

It doesn't have to be cross-country.

I mean, it's amazing if you can do that.

But even driving around New York, driving to Cleveland, doing it by road increases the likelihood that you're going to have interesting conversations and maybe start to realize that the person who you see is the other actually has an awful lot in common with you, and that what you share in your concerns far outweighs the polarization you've been fed.

Do you find yourself just caricaturing people less because you've you've spent so much time in so many different places, and these are just human beings with different ideas.

I think we always need to remind ourselves every day that, we're all people.

People have interests and that we are all in this together.

And we need to think about why some people, elites, people at the top want to divide us.

What are they getting out of it?

And then, unity can help to really, build solidarity and push back.

100 years ago, this country completed route 66.

And Doctor Valery Perry recently drove every mile of Chicago to Santa Monica.

What a journey.

Thank you for telling us about it.

And thank you for sharing the video.

If you didn't see it or, missed that clip from earlier this hour, we'll put in our show notes.

The full clip there so you can get the full flavor of Valery's trip.

Thank you very much for being here.

Thanks so much, Evan, and we'll talk to you soon.

I am sure that's Doctor Valery Perry, senior associate for the democratization Policy Council.

More Connections coming up in just a moment.

And.

Then, This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management, or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience, any rebroadcast or use in another medium, without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at WXXI news.org.