[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Narrator] On Story is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

"On Story" is also brought to you in part by the Bogle Family Vineyards, six generation farmers and third generation winemakers based in Clarksburg, California.

Makers of sustainably grown wines that are a reflection of the their family values since 1968.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story."

A look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

This week on "On Story" co-creator, showrunner, and writer, Lang Fisher, discusses her process behind the hit Netflix comedy series, "Never Have I Ever."

- I think when we first sat down to figure out what the show was, we tried to figure out what we had in common as teenagers.

The main theme was we were not that cool, we were like loud and had big personalities and so, we wanted to make a show that had a girl who was like that.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] [Narrator] Lang reveals the ins and outs of coming-of-age comedy, witty dialogue, diverse representation on screen, and how she shaped related themes for teens and adults alike.

[typewriter ding] [Casey] Your background as a storyteller, as a writer is so fascinating, can you tell us a little bit about the course that sort of got you to that opportunity to work with Mindy Kaling on this project?

- I always loved comedy, and in college I did improv and sketch and I just, I always loved comedy.

After college, I tried my hand at like standup, and sketch, and improv, and kind of accidentally got recruited through improv to write headlines for "The Onion," and there was a bunch of improvisers who were doing that and that was like very scary and hard because I was like, I don't know if I'm sharp enough to write these like very like incisive satirical headlines and, but I really enjoyed doing it and then I got hired full-time there, and then I realized like, honestly, when I was in a comedy writer's room that I just was like, this is where I'm supposed to be, like this is feels great.

"The Onion" ended up having these two TV shows that it, that were sort of short-lived, but that was sort of my first chance at writing for TV, but it was really sketch, I mean it was like writing these fake news stories and then from there I like got an agent and then got hired on "30 Rock" on the last season of "30 Rock," and then, from there got hired on "The Mindy Project" and that's where I met Mindy.

I guess Netflix loved her books and loved the story she told about being like a young person and wanted to maybe make a show about that.

And Mindy, to her credit was like, I was not that interesting as a teenager, my life was too boring, but I would like to make a show set now about a teenage Indian-American girl, and I happen to have like a deep love for YA content.

So, she asked me if I wanted to to join her in creating a show, and so we started working together and came up with "Never Have I Ever."

[typewriter ding] [Casey] And what was the development process like once you got on board the project?

- I think when we first sat down to kind of figure out what the show was, we tried to figure out what we had in common as teenagers, and the like, kind of main theme was we were not that cool, we didn't really have boyfriends and we like, you know, were just not like head cheerleaders, but the other thing was is neither one of us was a wallflower.

We weren't shy and we weren't like awkward, we were like loud and had big personalities.

And so, we wanted to make a show that had a girl who was like that, who maybe wasn't popular but had like confidence in her own right, and had a group of friends that was, you know, diverse and also really confident even if they were sort of weird because that's like what we grew up with.

I remember us having conversation that's like, what is her deep wound?

And we have both lost parents that were very dear to us, you know like, and so, we're like, let, you know, I think, let's have her have just lost a parent, a dad.

And, you know, we actually, our writer's room had a quite a few people who had lost a parent, and a couple who had lost parents in high school because that is such a specific time to have that kind of grief because teenagers don't deal well with grief.

And we thought an interesting balance, and something that could give her drive and could give story momentum, is if she has this pain that she refuses to deal with.

And that she is channeling all of the energy from this pain into this stuff that we all love in teen shows.

Like trying to date the popular boy, trying to be popular, trying to go to parties.

- Devi, the reason I was enlisted by your doctors and your mother is to delve into some of the major events that have happened in your life over this last year.

Now, we've been seeing each other for months, and you still don't wanna talk about your father.

- Well, what's there to talk about?

He's dead, it made me sad.

Now, I wanna talk about a major event that could happen this week, [bleep] cherry, doc.

- Oh, Lord.

- But, it's being fueled by this deeper like sadness that she's refusing to touch.

- I'm curious if there were any touchstones that you looked for in writers to fill your room?

- I do not have immigrant parents, but I think, listening to a lot of our writers who do, from different countries, like not just India.

There is this similarity of feeling like, different or other than that I think we wanted to really nail in this character of her wanting to fit in and feel like she was like as cool and as like accepted as like anyone could possibly be.

And I think, learning to accept her heritage and be proud of it is like part of the tale of the show.

And so, you know, listening to kind of some of the interesting stories from those writers really helped us shape a lot of our stories.

- I'm thinking about the development or evolution of Devi as a character over seasons.

One of the things I love is something you just alluded to her sort of leaning into her heritage and her culture, but at the same time she's also a character that you all as a staff are not afraid to show her making mistakes or decisions that gets her in precarious situations.

- What's our goal for today?

[Both] To make conversation.

[Devi] Right.

We're talking to the boys.

I'm gonna ask Jonah to come over and watch unreleased Ariana Grande footage.

Before you know it, they'll all be blinking at prom.

Okay.

Boyfriend, here I come.

[thud] [bell ringing] Hey, Jonah!

- Ew, you're bleeding.

- One thing that was really important to both Mindy and me is to not make her so mature.

Like I think there's sometimes you see teenage characters who are like, talk like 40-year-olds, and enjoy like 40-year-old music and like really are precocious, and have incredible vocabulary.

And that always sets off like bells in my head when I see it because there's so much comedy and immaturity in being like a selfish teenager.

And sometimes, I feel like, you know, I can, I hear our fans being like, "Come on!

Why can't she just like make a good decision?"

And it's like, it's like 'cause she can't, like she is, she's a teenager and she is like so insecure.

I mean, when I was a teenager I was just like, like the true me was so deep inside of me.

It was like buried beneath like layers of like, you know, costumes of trying to be confident, and like you're just so vulnerable at that age, and you're so afraid to not be noticed, but also to be noticed.

And, I just think you're just a pile of hormones, and you act rashly, and so, we want her to do that, but we also want you to root for her and to see her feel remorse, and to see her, you know, to see where it's coming from.

You know she's doing something that's not great, but you can see why she's doing it.

And, I think, you know, I don't know if Devi is necessarily an anti-hero, but that is the trick of writing an anti-hero is like, I think that's like, every Danny McBride character is that, it's like, you're like, he is a terrible person but I like him, I don't know.

But, you know, it's just if you want to see people mess up and then like bounce back from it or learn from it and grow.

- How did you strike the balance between Devi being likable, but also making such tragic decisions from time to time?

- I mean, I think there have been times where we have written scripts where we have pushed it too far, and luckily the TV writing process has a lot of eyes and sometimes I'll pitch something to Mindy, and Mindy will be like, "I think that just makes her like too bratty or like too unlikable."

And like, sometimes our executives will say the same thing and will be like, "I don't know, she seems kind of like mean here, you know?"

And so, sometimes it's like a collaborative effort but I feel like, we try to make her, anytime she does seem really bad, we try to show remorse, and we try to show the pain that it's coming from.

When you show that it's coming from a place of insecurity or a place of pain, people tend to like feel for her, and as long as she kind of redeems herself somehow or comes back to make it up to the person she's wronged, then I feel like you can forgive her.

And there are things that she's done that like maybe you don't forgive her for, but you also understand that like, she is young and like she just has to figure herself out, and I think we all can kind of identify with that.

I mean, I don't think anyone, I mean, maybe someone in here was perfect as a teenager, and if you were congratulations, but like, I was like a jerk a lot of times, especially to my parents.

So, I think if you can show the humanity of the character, like a lot of times it almost erases the thing they do wrong.

- Maitreyi feels so entwined with the character of Devi, like it would be hard for me to think of anyone else in that role.

Can you talk a little bit about that casting process?

'Cause it's a little legendary at this point.

- It was, I believe it was really Mindy's idea was just to be like, let's like, you know, open this up to anyone.

And I think in her real pursuit to make sure that there like are these like, are, you know, many South Asian roles on TV, like, it was like, let's give a chance to people who have like no one, like no inlet into Hollywood, and just like see who's out there.

And so, we did this open casting hall and we got like 15,000 submissions.

When we saw Maitreyi's tape, it was hard to describe.

She was just very different than everyone else.

We would referred to her as like Lil Raspy 'cause she has this like raspy little voice, and she was like kind of a tough little punk.

And like was just like, "Mom, what are you doing?"

Like, I feel like she was just like, seemed like petulant in this way that like really made us crack up.

And so, we were like, let's bring her into it.

So, it was like when we narrowed it down, it was like somebody who was like a very polished actor, and this girl who had never done anything, and was literally starring in like Chicago-the musical at her high school in Toronto.

And we, you know, we're like, we gotta take a chance on her.

[typewriter ding] [Casey] One of my favorite creative choices within the show is the repetition of Mohan as a presence.

Both the voicemail but also how he shows up in different ways when Devi needs him.

- Dad, am I ugly?

- What nonsense?

I'm looking at you right now, you're the most beautiful girl in the world.

- No, Kamala's beautiful.

When a boy at school said that, I was an un...

He said something mean to me.

- This boy is clearly an idiot like this umpire.

I mean do you think John McEnroe would let that umpire tell him that he's not beautiful?

No, he would stand up for himself.

- So, I should beat up Ben Gross.

- What?

No, no, no, no.

You fight back with your spirit little one, you stand up for yourself just like him.

- It started in the pilot.

And it started because Mindy and I, when we were talking about our grief, about our own parents, we both realized we'd had a very, very similar dream about our parents.

You're in the dream with like your dad and you're doing something mundane, and then you realize in the dream you're like, "Wait, but you died."

And then he's like, "Yeah, but I'm better now."

And you're like, "Oh, okay."

And she had the same dream about her mom, and we both had it, many times, so we put it in the pilot where he kind of is sitting on the couch and she's like, "Am I ugly?"

And then she's like, "Wait, you died."

And he is like, "I'm better now."

And then it was such a sweet moment that we were like, let's just keep bringing him back, and like having, you know, Nalini like remember him and remember stuff and then, you know, we have scenes where she's talking to him as if he's there, and you know, we've tried to kind of keep that going because I think when you do lose somebody that, especially that young, but like when you lose someone that is so close to you, you think about them all the time, and I mean, you dream about them, and you like wonder what they like would think of something?

- Wait, what are you doing here?

- This is my living room.

- No, no, I mean you died.

- Oh that, I'm better now.

[ominous music] - And then you have another repetitive idea with John McEnroe as the incredible voice of God, if you would.

[John] So today Devi returns to high school, can she shed her old identity, as a paralyzed Indian girl whose dad dropped dead at a school function.

It's not likely, those things are pretty unforgettable, but with working legs comes a whole host of new possibilities.

So, go get 'em, Devi!

- McEnroe really just came out of like a random conversation Mindy and I had where it was just like, I think we were just like, she's full of rage, it's good to have VO for teen characters because teens don't talk about what they're actually feeling.

And so, it's hard to know like what the truth is, but then it was like she's full of rage, what if like McEnroe was just her inner monologue?

And it was like, "That's crazy."

And then we're like, "Is it though?"

[audience laughs] Should we ask him?

And then she ran into him at some like event, and was like, "I wrote a part for you."

And he's like, "All right."

[all laughing] [Casey] It's also hard not to love characters like Fabiola and Eleanor, and how they add to the world, but they also have their lives, and their interest, and their desires themselves.

- We also wanted to create characters you kind of haven't seen.

And so, like having like Fabiola be this kind of like introverted robot-loving, you know, young gay woman.

Like we were just like, this seems like a cool new type of person we haven't seen, I mean, she's sort of like a nerd in a classical sense 'cause she loves robots, but she also is like coming out and she's, you know, falling in love with another like young girl who's cool and I don't know, we wanted to sort of explore that area and then like Eleanor is also, you know, I think, particularly, for Mindy, it was important for us to show like, real strong Asian women who aren't like quiet or diffident, and like who have like big personalities and big opinions, and you know, I think that is like an important thing for her and for me.

[upbeat music] [Fabiola] Whoa!

Devi, you look like an Indian Kardashian.

[Devi] Thanks Fab, but I thought we're dressing hot today.

- This is my boy's medium polo instead of my usual large.

The janitor said- - No, just, no, stop!

[Eleanor] Well, I know I did a good job.

Get a load of sexy flapper girl.

My grandmother died in this dress.

- Okay, let's just stick to the plan.

What's our goal for today?

[Both] To make conversation.

- I saw in an interview that you and Mindy did, you talked about the necessity for hot boys in a teenage, sort of, drama.

- I know, one of us said that.

[Casey and Lang laughing] - With Paxton Hall-Yoshida obviously, you certainly have one through and through.

What was it like developing that character over the course of these seasons?

He's such a fascinating, that stereotype of a dumb jock, but you can see the sort of wheels turning and other possibilities behind that.

- Hi, Paxton!

You don't know me, but my name is Devi Vishwakumar, I'm a sophomore.

I sit behind you in history class.

I was also paralyzed last year.

Oh, okay, great, you are familiar with that.

So, here's the thing, I'm into you.

Like I could name every class you've had for the last two years, but I won't do that.

And I know you'd never be my boyfriend because you're you and I'm me, but I was wondering, if you would ever consider having sex with me?

Oh, my God!

I am such an idiot, I'm so sorry.

I can't believe I just did that.

[Paxton] Yeah.

Okay.

[Devi] What?

[John McEnroe] What?

That actually worked?

- I think we wanted to start it off as like this like object of lust from her point of view and then when you get to know him, he has these other dimensions, and so, we thought it would be interesting to give him a sister who is adopted and has Down Syndrome, and to give him this insecurity once his swimming career kind of comes to an end and it's like, he doesn't have it all made even though it's like in Devi's mind like someone like him who's got it all together, and then life must be like easy street.

You know, we wanted to make sure that he like had his own vulnerabilities.

And so, when we were, I mean, some of it came about organically and you know, when we decided to start doing these episodes from the guy's point of views, we just sort of like, we're like, what is an interesting facet about him that we didn't know before?

To us, it felt like important to keep their truths a little secret from her, and to like, kind of like, keep them in their own world.

And so, we know that like what they're revealing to her is all that she knows, but we also, the audience know more about these guys because we've heard their narrators.

Gigi Hadid and Andy Samberg.

[Casey and Lang laughing] - Can you talk about that a little bit?

The choice to switch up the VO actors and what that brought to what?

- Yeah, I mean originally we were like, let's give every single person one, and then like it just is like, this is gonna get insane, we can't do this.

The person who we chose for each of their narrators is someone that can kind of like embody them in like in some way, shape or form, like, either aspirationally or like can like hit an emotional chord for them.

So like, Gigi is someone who probably has been underestimated because she's so beautiful, she also, incredibly nice lady, and a really hard worker, and like comes and does those like VO sessions and it's awesome and it's great.

And like Andy I've worked with before at Brooklyn Nine-Nine, but you know for Ben it's like, I think Andy kind of feels like maybe the person, like Ben would hope to grow up to be, and like is a little bit seems like a caretaker of him that sort of like feels like, "All right buddy, come on!"

[Andy] This is Ben Gross, he's a 15 year old boy from Sherman Oaks, California.

And I am American actor, producer, writer and fake rapper, Andy Samberg.

What can I say?

I wear a lot of hats.

Now, you may be asking yourself, why is Andy Samberg narrating the story of this particular boy?

Well honestly, his dad's my lawyer and I owe him a favor, but Ben seems like a good kid, so, happy to do it.

- We wanted them to kind of have like these like, almost like spirit animals, but spirit celebrities that like really could like voice their like inner selves.

[typewriter ding] - And in season three, I love that we push so many of our characters into different relationships, different places, brings natural uncomfortability and conflict there.

I heard you all call it sort of natural shelf life of the story being four years.

So that, junior year being a really sort of crazy, intense year before you hit senior year, was that some of the impetus behind those decisions or was there something else there you all were going after?

- Particularly for a high school show, I think you need to show your characters have growth.

I think you have to show them change, and show them like evolve a little bit.

I mean the funny thing is when you're writing stories that are serialized, like our show is, it's really easy to be like, okay this episode takes place over three days and then the next one is right on the heels of that 'cause we had a cliffhanger.

And then it's like, then you realize the season took like two weeks, and then you're like, "All right, so the next season is like the next two weeks."

Like, you just like aren't moving time.

So, one thing was like, we realized like, season one and season two like, we're like both just like first semester of sophomore year and we're like, we've got to move, we've got to like go, we gotta get to junior year.

So, we did have like a time lapse this season.

We want to show Devi grow up a little bit, we wanna show her lose a little bit of the thing that started her off, which is, if I'm popular, if I have this boyfriend, I won't hurt, I won't feel sad anymore.

We wanted her to start to realize that she can't wait to have this amazing life, she actually already has it.

And one thing that we kind of have done every season is have a little bit of a theme.

Season one was about facing your grief, and season two was a little bit about dealing with her mental health, and like, people called her crazy, and she, you know, was like irrational, and like realizing that, and like accepting the fact that she's depressed, and like, and it's okay and she's gonna be okay.

And then season three was sort of like trying to tell a story about realizing her self worth.

And I think, you know, what season four will be, will be kind of about like growing up and moving on 'cause that's our senior year.

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching On Writing: "Never Have I Ever" with Lang Fisher on, "On Story."

On Story is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story project that also includes the "On Story" radio program, podcast, book series, and the "On Story" archive accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

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