(gentle music) - The speakership is often called the most powerful political job in Rhode Island.

So why is House Speaker Joe Shekarchi seriously considering running for governor?

For now, Shekarchi remains undecided.

But the Warwick Democrat has almost $4 million in his campaign account, meaning that he could quickly launch a run.

If Shekarchi jumps into the race, it would scramble the outlook.

That's because the outcome of a three-way primary between Governor Dan McKee, former CVS Health Executive Helena Foulkes, and Shekarchi is difficult to predict.

So will the speaker go for it?

And what can he offer for Rhode Island's future?

I'm Ian Donnis and that's just some of what we talked about in this in-depth conversation.

(gentle music) House Speaker Joe Shekarchi, welcome to "One on One."

- It's my pleasure to be here.

It's exciting.

It's a brand-new show, and I'm happy to be your first guest.

- There's a lot of interest in you these days because you're a potential candidate for governor.

You seem to be enjoying the attention, and you could jump in later than some other folks because you have almost $4 million in your campaign account.

My question is, the House Speaker is often called the most powerful political official in Rhode Island.

Why would you even contemplate giving that up to run for the office of governor?

- Well, thank you for that, for that speculation.

I don't really necessarily enjoy it, but it's there and I just deal with it.

I don't have a problem with it.

I understand politics in some people's minds is Rhode Island's indoor sport.

But the reality is, I've done a great job as speaker.

I've got a great leadership team.

I'm very happy with that.

But every speaker has a shelf life, and I'm certainly at the back half of mine.

It's not to say that I'm leaving or I plan on leaving, but I'm consider the opportunity.

A lot of people, a lot of Rhode Islanders have asked me to run.

A lot of interest groups in the Democratic Party, you know, traditional stakeholders have expressed to me that they want me to run, so I'm considering it.

I'm going through a process.

I don't see any great hurry to announce.

And quite frankly, I don't think the people of Rhode Island care as much as some other people care, because the people of Rhode Island care about hospitals.

They care about health care.

They care about the Washington Bridge.

They care about things that are affecting their life.

They care, quite frankly, about affordability.

Things are not affordable for Rhode Islanders right now.

We have, you know, high utility costs.

We're going into a winter season where I understand there's gonna be another increase in utility rates.

At least there's been one proposed.

These are the things that Rhode Islanders care about, and these are the things that I'm focused on.

The political stuff will take care of itself in the early part of next year.

- Well, speaking of the political stuff, Governor Dan McKee is seen as facing a difficult road for reelection.

His poll numbers have been very low, and that's influenced by the whole saga involving the Washington Bridge.

I wonder, have you or any of your allies made any efforts to get Governor McKee out of the race, or will you and your allies make any efforts to talk him into not running for reelection?

- I have not.

I don't think it's appropriate.

No one, if anyone is doing that, they're not doing it at my behest or my authorization.

I don't speak for anybody else but Joe Shekarchi.

And what I'm, quite frankly, is I have a respect for every elected person who gets in and was in politics.

I mean, I have a good working relationship with the governor.

That has not changed and I don't anticipate that changing.

- State lawmakers will return to the State House in early January.

You've said to The Boston Globe that if you do run for governor, you would not see a need to leave the speakership at the start of the legislative session.

My question is, if you do run for governor, would you feel a need to leave the speakership before the end of the 2026 legislative session?

We know, of course, that the first months of the session are pretty quiet.

It's mostly when bills get filed, committee meetings start to happen.

But the session really doesn't get active until about midway through and gets a lot busier in May and June.

- I will tell you that every decision I make is always in the best interest of my colleagues in the House, the people of Rhode Island.

If I decided that I was going to be a candidate for another office and that somehow, you know, made me less effective as a Speaker, than I would evaluate at that point.

But at this current time, I see no reason to say that or even to consider that, to be honest with you, because I feel, you know, I've done the job for six years now.

We've passed budgets that are balanced, that are bipartisan, that met the needs of Rhode Islanders.

And I feel I'm capable of doing that as well as considering the possibility of running for another office.

- Right now, while you are on the sidelines of the race for governor, there are two Democratic candidates, Governor McKee and Helena Foulkes who narrowly lost to McKee in 2022.

Organized labor was seen as a crucial source of support for Governor McKee in that race.

So I wonder, have you received any assurances from organized labor that it will support you, or that aspects of it will support you if you do run for governor?

- No, I haven't had any of those direct discussions, but I'll tell you that I enjoy a good relationship with organized labor.

I think that, you know, they have an important role to play in the government of Rhode Island.

And I will tell you that I have enjoyed a good working relationship with, you know, all of organized labor with all of my colleagues in general.

So we have, you know, colleagues, there's 74 other representatives.

They represent a big cross-section of Rhode Island and inside of it, there are a little, there are constituencies as well.

I like to think that I have an open-door policy for anybody who wants to come forward.

I listen, I try to be collaborative.

I try to understand that and I try to meet the needs of Rhode Islanders.

- Is it reasonable to think that some of the labor support that Governor McKee had in the past would come over to you if you run, given how Governor McKee is polling in the 20s and faces a very difficult outlook?

- You know, I know some people in the media have speculated that.

And what I would tell you is the best people to ask is organized labor themselves.

I don't speak for them.

As I said, I, you know, I attend events that they're there.

I have a good working relationship, but I don't profess to speak for anybody, but Joe Shekarchi.

- You talked earlier about the affordability crisis.

We love Rhode Island.

It's a great place to live if you have a decent job.

But kind of the perennial issue in Rhode Island is that the, there's a search to build a more vibrant economy.

This is something that's been going on for many decades and the state really lacks new engines of job growth.

You've put some effort behind creating a life sciences sector and that could have some potential, but it remains at a very early stage.

So afters serv- - Very, I mean... Interrupt you.

- Hang up.

- Very early, but exciting stage.

- It is potentially exciting, but it's very early.

So you became Speaker in 2021, that was four years ago.

What do you think the state should do differently to build a more vibrant economy?

- A couple of things going on right now in terms of the economy.

We need to engage with the business community more and directly, and I've tried to do that.

And I will tell you that the business community needs to engage more with the leadership in the General Assembly and in government, in general.

Look, FM Global came to us last year.

They needed a change in the law.

They wanted to stay Rhode Island.

They're actually expanding Rhode Island.

Not many people know that, but FM Global is expanding their campus in Gloucester.

They're looking at expansion other places Rhode Island, they love Rhode Island.

They're committed to Rhode Island.

We need to foster a better relationship with them.

We need to work with them.

And I've told the people at FM Global, we have an open-door policy.

Last year, we had an ask from Citizens Bank to look at changing the tax structure that they originally were in.

They got fell out of because of the lack of compliance due to COVID requirements.

We made, you know, there was a real strong effort to move Citizens to Massachusetts.

We reacted in the General Assembly fast and quickly, and we delivered it in.

Citizens is staying in Rhode Island, and they're growing in Rhode Island.

I will, you know, talk about what we've done for Bally's to make sure that they stay here in Rhode Island.

That's a huge company.

Not many people know that Bally's is building billions and billions of dollars' worth of casinos around the country.

And what I will tell you, the headquartered here in Rhode Island and those high-paying private sector jobs are based here in Rhode Island.

IGT also staying in Rhode Island, that company has been bought and merged and everything else.

If we didn't have a 10-year or even a 20-year contract in place, I'm convinced that both of those companies and all of their high executive salaries that pay taxes in Rhode Island would be somewhere else, but Rhode Island.

- Notwithstanding everything you're saying, it's not a secret to you that many business people have a dim view of the General Assembly.

They think the legislature has made it harder to do business in Rhode Island.

What do you say to that concern that among business people that the legislature has, in the most recent budget, increased taxes and fees and is making it more difficult to do business in the state?

- So I wanna push back, because I don't think the interactions I've had with business community, they don't have a dim view of the General Assembly.

They really don't.

They actually feel that we've made significant progress to being very open and very transparent.

And the culture has changed there in the last four years.

So I'm proud of that and I'm not gonna concede that point.

What I will tell you is, like I said, we have an open door.

We're gonna continue to work with the business community.

Look, in the General Assembly, we're a part-time general state.

We respond to what our constituents, including the business community, large business and small business, we have eliminated a lot of red tape in government.

I can tell you from the real estate industry and the home-building industry, we've streamlined the entire process as well.

If you talk to the Rhode Island Builders Association, they think the General Assembly has done an outstanding job in the last four years.

And I can go to different sectors who do that.

They're engaged, and what I would tell the business community and everybody else who's, you know, call your state representative, tell them how we can improve, tell them what we can do.

And I'm not waiting for that to happen, by the way, I'm going out and meeting small businesses and large businesses, the Chamber of Commerce, the Northern Rhode Island Chamber of Commerce, the Partnership, all of them I meet with regularly to try to make a vibrant business community.

I think we're getting there.

You mentioned the life science.

It is exciting.

I don't know if you had the opportunity to attend the groundbreaking there last two weeks ago.

And I will tell you that the companies that are coming here are coming here they have opportunities.

Some of them have started in Cambridge, around Kendall Square in Massachusetts.

They love Rhode Island.

- Speaker Shekarchi, I'm gonna push back to your pushback, are you- - Surprising.

- You're familiar with Rhode Island Public Expenditure Council.

It's a business-backed advocacy and watchdog group.

They issued a finding in August about the most recent state budget, which continued a trend in which the state budget has grown by billions of dollars just in the last few years.

RIPEC points to a disparity between the growth of that spending and state revenues, which are less than the rate of growth in the budget.

And they say that's unsustainable.

They point to what RIPEC called a substantial amount of new taxes and fees in the most recent budget.

Do you have a plan or an inclination in the next state budget to reduce spending?

- So let's talk about the RIPEC report first, and we could talk about the plan in the future.

And we base that plan on revenue numbers and there'll be a revenue conference in the next 30 days.

Did the budget go up?

Yes, because we had a great opportunity over the last several years, thanks to the good work of Senator Reed and our congressional delegation to bring in a lot of federal money.

Let me give you an example.

All of that COVID money that we got in Rhode Island, all of the rent relief money that we gotten Rhode Island, all that unemployment money that we got for people who are outta work in COVID, all went through the budget.

And that's how the budget increased substantially.

Yes, there's been more spending in the budget because, quite frankly, there's been a greater need.

I needed to take action.

We needed to take action in the General Assembly in this year to substantially increase what the governor had proposed for our healthcare system.

We were on the verge of a collapse, I'm talking about primary care rates that went up by over $40 million.

There's increased spending.

Nursing homes went up by over $12 million.

There's some of year increased spending.

Hospitals, which were collapsing, went up over 58 million.

And that was only what we could afford to give.

Our hospital system, and our healthcare system is still struggling here in Rhode Island.

I don't even wanna get into, I know you've been doing some stories about the Prospect Hospital.

That's a very, very delicate situation.

We have done everything we can from a state perspective to continue to help those hospitals come out of bankruptcy, become a nonprofit, stay open in Rhode Island because the healthcare system needs 'em, but all about the jobs, the nursing, the doctors, the support staff, all work.

They employ thousands of people at those two hospitals.

We have to do everything we can to help them.

We're gonna continue to do that.

So you say, has spending gone up?

Yeah, the need has gone up and the spending has gone up to try to match that need.

- Is there great need in Rhode Island?

Certainly.

But what about RIPEC's point that it's not sustainable to continue expanding spending beyond the growth of state revenue?

- Well, we have to look at what's happening in the federal budget, 'cause I will tell you what happens in Rhode Island, what happens in Washington has a direct effect of what happens in Rhode Island.

So yeah, it's a concern.

We're monitoring that.

There are members of the General Assembly who are very concerned about that.

There are different ways we can address that.

Some of my colleagues wanna, you know, raise revenue.

Other wanna cut spending.

We go through a process, a very open, transparent process.

The House Finance Committee is one of the most effective tools I know of gathering input.

You know, we, as I said earlier, we will reflect with the will of the people of Rhode Island, 'cause especially in an election year, my colleagues will hear what the constituents have to stay.

But a lot of people have, there's a great amount of needs in the social services, especially the social service network and safety net that's being cut by Washington right now.

And there's a lot of people who wanna us as what we can backfill that.

And we simply can't, we don't have that kind of money.

We can't generate that kind of money.

We can't tax our way out of that money.

So spending inevitably will come down because we talk about the billions of dollars of budget.

There's a tremendous part of that budget that is federal money and that will is being cut with this big bill.

And there's a lot of adjectives.

A lot of people call about that bill.

But the bill that was just passed in Washington, federal appropriations bill, was the federal budget went into effect.

October 1st is gonna impact Rhode Island and that will cut spending.

And that is beyond the control of the state.

- During the COVID epidemic, there was a gusher of federal money coming into Rhode Island and other states.

And Rhode Island found itself in the unusual position of having surpluses, annual surpluses for multiple years.

That's about the only time that's happened in the last quarter century.

And now there are projected deficits into the future.

You and the legislature have to balance the budget every year by the time you recess.

But due to the mismatch between spending and revenues, there's this projected deficit.

And some people say that's a indicator of a troubled economy, since it precludes spending more on investment.

Are you comfortable with these projected deficits stretching into the future?

- Well, these are projections.

They always change.

It depends, like I said, depends on Washington.

It's no different than what's happening in Massachusetts.

The federal money is gone.

So we have to learn, as we have in the past, to live within our means.

Yeah, it concerns me.

But I have to tell you, there's a great need.

I mean, we turn around and everybody wants more money for education.

And we've done that.

We've made that commitment for post-secondary education in our colleges.

We created, you know, the Promise program.

The Hope Scholarship program.

What concerns me more than the spending, the total number, the gross number of spending is are we getting enough bang for our buck?

Are we effectively using the resources allocated by the General Assembly?

Can we do a better job, a more efficient job, an effective job?

That's what I worry about.

- What is the answer to that?

I think a lot Rhode Islanders question whether the state is getting the best bang for its buck.

- I think that really comes down to the departments, the directors of those departments that my colleagues come to me and say, "Speaker, you know, we need to do more for this."

And I point out that this is what we've done.

We've done millions and millions of dollars for this department.

They need to manage those budgets better.

They need to spend those money better.

They need to allocate that money.

You know, people say what makes a decision of what you fund?

I try to fund in other words, my priorities are things that have a great need and things that are working.

And the bonus on that is if there's a federal match involved.

If I can put money into the hospital system and get an additional money from the federal government, that's a worthy investment.

If I can put money into a particular department that is really operating at a high efficiency rating and we're getting good bang for a buck, those tend to rise to the top of the priority list when it comes to funding.

- You mentioned the uncertain future of Roger Williams Medical Center and Our Lady of Fatima Hospital in North Providence.

The Centurion Foundation, a nonprofit out of Atlanta, is trying to acquire them, but it's having trouble closing its transaction.

Don't wanna go long on this, but how do- - I'm familiar with the details.

- Yes.

How do you see the outlook for Centurion completing this transaction?

- I don't know.

It depends on the bond market, to be quite honest with you.

I know they've tried to go to the bond market twice before.

They have been unable to sell enough bonds.

They have come to us, meaning Centurion group have come to the state.

The governor, the Senate president, myself met with them recently.

We've made some adjustments.

I signed a letter, as long as my colleagues, in support of them.

We're trying to make it as attractive as possible.

We as a state cannot afford to buy those two hospitals and run them.

They have to get some money in the private sector.

- And yet it would be a calamity for the state if those two hospitals would were to close, because it would flood other existing hospitals.

- Absolutely.

And I also, when I talk with the Centurion people, I very politely recommended to them that they put some more money in the game, some more skin in the game.

Centurion needs to step up as well.

- Do you have any confidence that this deal is gonna work out?

- I personally, I would say it's a 50-50 deal, but if it doesn't necessarily mean the hospitals are gonna close.

It means they go into the bankruptcy court and the bankruptcy court will make that decision, not Prospect and not the state.

The bankruptcy court will make that decision.

There are other people who have expressed some interest in possibly running it and possibly buying it.

And I don't know.

It's being, the bankruptcy court is in the North District of Texas and we just don't have a, you know, the Attorney General, to his credit, has an attorney down there representing Rhode Island's interest.

But we don't have any, I don't have any direct knowledge of what's going on in those proceedings in Texas.

- Let's switch gears and talk about the Washington Bridge saga, an issue that's very present in Rhode Island.

With the benefit of hindsight, how do you think the state should have acted differently from what Governor McKee did on that issue?

- I can tell you, you know, hindsight's always 20/20, but I will tell you that I think we should have, we as a state could have been much more transparent with the public.

And I think that we have to be a little bit more sensitive that this isn't a 15-minute delay.

That in some cases it is 15 minutes.

In some cases it's an hour and 15 minutes.

So we need to do that.

I think that public would understand that.

And then the timeline, some of the early timeline and projections were very unrealistic and they were not based on fact.

And I think we have to be careful about that.

We have to make sure that the people of Rhode Island always understand what happened.

And I think that's part of the oversight process that we'll be conducting next month.

And I look forward to hearing those answers.

And I think the people of Rhode Island need to know that.

- Speaking of transparency, Governor McKee is really leaning on the state's lawsuit against some contractors that the state says were responsible for the problems with the bridge.

They reject that argument.

But some Rhode Islanders think it would be better to focus right now on the public's right to know, having a deep dive into what went wrong, how it went wrong, and that is more important than any financial recovery that the state might win through a lawsuit.

So do you favor the lawsuit, or should the state place a greater emphasis right now on a tell-all explanation of how this catastrophe happened?

- Well, a tell-all, you know, narrative is already out there.

It's in a forensic audit.

And that audit is public information right now.

- That's one of many documents.

- One of many.

And I'm sure there are more- - Many have not been disclosed.

- Well, the one that's been disclosed, the Attorney General has said quite clearly that there would be no harm in having oversight to explain the results of that forensic audit, how it happened, why it happened.

And I believe that will be the focus of next month's oversight hearing as well.

And that will be done under oath.

- But do you think Governor McKee is right to place the emphasis on the lawsuit, which is not gonna go to court until late in 2027, after the next race for governor?

Or should the emphasis be more on providing more answers to Rhode Islanders in the present?

- Well, I don't think it's an either or.

I think you can do both.

I think you can have a vigorous oversight hearing, ask the questions, get the answers, and then continue with the lawsuit.

And that's the position of the Attorney General, the top law enforcement, and the top civil attorney who's representing the state of Rhode Island in that.

Now, I'm sure you can find other people who will differ for that, but I think the, we've done the, you know, we can't give you an answer 'cause we're in a lawsuit and I respect that as an attorney.

I understand there's some validity to that.

But this is a document that has been posted and is posted online right now, and we need to have answers of the document.

I'd like to find out a little bit more.

There's a lot of that document actually raised questions.

I think those questions need to be answered.

And quite frankly, the other side, if you will, the contractors that are being sued by the state, they have that document already.

So it's not like we are, in fact, producing something that's gonna hurt the state.

It's already out there.

The disclosure has been out there.

We're asking questions around that.

Those are the same questions that a judge would ask, the defense would ask, the prosecution would ask.

Those are the questions that a jury would wanna know the answer to.

And in this case, the people of Rhode Island are the jury.

- You mentioned the joint oversight hearing that the House of Representatives and State Senate will hold next month.

Ken Block had an op-ed piece this week questioning whether this will really be thorough oversight.

Because in his view, he questions whether you and your counterpart leading the Senate, Val Lawson, really wanna agitate the organized labor movement, which is actively involved in projects such as Washington Bridge.

- That has never come up in any of my discussions with anybody in labor or anyone else.

I don't answer to anybody except my constituents and my colleagues feel the same way.

We will have, and I don't wanna speak for Senator Lawson, but I can tell you she is very much in support of a vigorous oversight hearing, as I am, and we'll have one as well.

And with all due respect, that's, you know, Ken Block's entitled to his opinion.

However, right or wrong, he may be.

What I will tell you is wait until we have the oversight hearing, and then if you don't like the results or the process, he's free to criticize then.

But to prematurely criticize the hearing a month before it's even happened is really just a lot of speculation.

- Helena Foulkes says if she's the next governor, RIDOT Director Peter Alviti will be out of a job.

If you were to run for governor and win, would you keep or fire Peter Alviti?

- Again, we're talking about something that's two years in the future, but all I'll tell you is I will evaluate every single department director.

I'm sure some will leave because it's the nature of the business and some would wanna stay and each one of them will be determined on the merits and I'll make that decision if and when I become governor.

- We now have a soccer stadium in Pawtucket.

It's a nice amenity to have.

And soccer is popular among many people, but the cost of building the facility was $27 million.

And Rhode Island taxpayers are gonna pay out about $132 million over 30 years to finance that project.

Is that a boondoggle in the making, or do you think that project- - So- - Is that worth it?

- Let me challenge your numbers by saying that you're assuming that those bonds will not be refinanced.

You are taking the current rate, which is extremely high, and you're amortizing it out over 30 years to get to that number.

I'm hopeful that those bonds will be refinanced, bring that rate down, that total number of payback down substantially.

Ask me that question in a year or two, and we'll hopefully have a better answer for you because it's too early to predict if it's a financial success or not.

- Who has been the best Rhode Island governor in your lifetime?

- Well, this might shock you, but I had a great relationship with Governor Bruce Sundlun.

Before he became governor, the banks closed, the Rustic closed and I had a firsthand view of how he handled himself and how he comported himself during that crisis.

He got sworn in and one minute later, he closed the all the credit unions 'cause they were insolvent.

And then it took him two years to fix them and to open them up again or to help merge them or to help them stabilize in the people of Rhode Island.

It was very difficult time to govern.

He also had a lot of personal challenges at the time.

It was not easy to govern.

We had a two-year election cycle, not a four-year one.

And the day he got sworn in, when he closed the banks, he started to run for reelection.

And there was a whole, you know, people who didn't get their money.

I mean, talk about residents of Rhode Island, a whole constituency of people who didn't get money, but he met with them regularly.

He went into the belly of the beast.

He wasn't afraid to talk to anybody.

I think that's helped me understand.

It's always good to have an open-door policy.

He was very transparent.

I thought Governor Sundlun for the time that he was in, was a very good governor.

- You've been around politics for many, many years since you- - I'm not that old.

I'm not that old.

- Well, you ran Paul Sagan's Rhode on campaign back in 1992, but you didn't run to be a state rep until you were 50.

How come you never ran for elective office prior to that?

- To be honest with you, I concentrated a little bit on taking care of my parents who were elderly and needed, you know, help at home.

And then also I was, also concentrating on getting my law practice up and running.

It was a tenet when I grew up.

My dad always said, you know, make sure you do all the politics you want, do all the things you want, but make sure you, you know, you have a good, you know, base, a good foundation.

So I came out of, you know, Bruce Sundlun's administration.

Never had a, you know, didn't have a job, opened up a law practice and built a law practice up and that took a lot of time and attention.

I had some responsibilities at home that also took a lot of time and attention.

I have no regrets.

I'm happy where I am and I'm happy, you know, with the decisions I made in my personal life as well.

- In closing, while you ponder your decision whether or not to run for governor, what are your top three priorities for the next House session?

- It's inevitable.

At the end of the, every year, at the beginning of the year, I get asked the question, what is the priority?

The priority has always been and always will be as long as I'm Speaker is the budget.

It's the single biggest, most important document that we do.

It's a blueprint, it's our policy statement and it's how we prioritize the very precious taxpayer dollars that will be that way.

This is gonna be a bit a difficult budget and a challenge because of the big bill that came out of Washington.

We're still studying it, we're analyzing it in the budget we passed last year.

We've asked the administration to provide reports to us.

They will do so by the end of this month and we'll study them and we'll look at the best way to do that.

That's a very big thing as well.

I'd like to continue, we talked about a little bit on the show, engaging the business community to be involved in the legislative process and to listen to them.

We need to know at the general assembly what is good to help Rhode Island business and when we can.

And if we can, we should help that as well because we need a good, vibrant economy that funds all of the social programs that do a lot of good work in the state of Rhode Island.

- House Speaker Joe Shekarchi, thanks so much for sitting down.

- It is my pleasure and I enjoy and wish you a lot of luck and success, and I hope to return many, many years from now to your show and it still be as successful as it's always been.

Thank you, Ian.

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