(gentle music) - [Ben Sukle] I think every Rhode Islander asks what was here before.

- [Ian Donnis] It's a very Rhode Island question.

- It's a very Rhode Island question, like it's been really kind of cathartic for me to be like, "Nothing was here before.

Not a thing."

- [Ian Donnis] Ben Sukle has come a long way since cutting his teeth in the restaurant business as a dishwasher and bun loader at Red Robin.

Sukle is known as one of the best chefs in Rhode Island.

He runs two downtown Providence restaurants, Oberlin and Gift Horse.

- People tend to discover when they come here, they're like, "Oh, Gift Horse is right next door."

- [Ian Donnis] He's helped to elevate the local profile of food and his restaurants are a beacon of activity as downtown Providence still wrestles with the after effects of the pandemic.

So, what does it take to be successful in the notoriously difficult restaurant business?

Why did Sukle, a Pennsylvania native, fall so hard for his adopted home state of Rhode Island?

I'm Ian Donnis, and that's just some of what we've talked about in this episode of "One on One."

Ben Sukle, welcome to "One on One."

- Happy to be here.

- Let's go back to the beginning.

You grew up in Central Pennsylvania.

How did you first get interested in food?

- It's always been something that has been the forefront of every family occasion I had.

I grew up in a family where the moms were excellent cooks, my grandmothers, my mom.

It was always something that was to be taken as like special, food was special in a lot of ways and there was a lot of identity in traditions that happened there.

It wasn't as, you know, as rich as some cultures, but there was still like, you know, New Year's Eve was sauerkraut and pork and sauerkraut and like we had like different traditions for birthdays.

And then, growing up I was fortunate to live really close by my next, with my best friend who was first generation Bulgarian American.

So living up with their culture like the mom was a Hall of Fame Bulgarian basketball player, which was like super fun.

And she was strict, but she knew the traditions there.

So like that type of Eastern European culture coincided with my Eastern European culture, like allowed me to see food in a different way other than just lunch, and dinner, and breakfast.

- What were some of the foods that made a big impression on you as a young person and made you really, spoke to you?

- I think it's when I like got over the kid thing of hating every food.

You know, it's like where everything's gross, everything's disgusting.

And then, you start to realize there's a tomato that was grown and tasting a tomato that was grown by like in your backyard or my, in this case, my grandparents' backyard was always like one of those moments that were like not watershed, I would say.

There was never like a big movement there, but it was more just like tasting things that are commodity versus things that are taken with a lot of care.

And like that attention to making something well has always been something that's been instilled with my family so.

- It's kind of magical when you're a kid and if you're like, your folks are growing tomatoes in the yard and it's like something that comes outta the ground, it's not coming from a supermarket, that makes a connection.

- Absolutely.

And especially like when you get to culinary school and you start to focus in on foods and then you're like, I was able to process at an early young age that those things that I had were really special and that those translate into what I'm doing now.

So, I think those moments of realizing you grew up with something really good and those can, you know, you're not starting from zero.

I mean, where I came from in PA was definitely a food desert.

The best food was found in people's homes, you know, but we had, I was lucky to grow up in a lot of really good, talented kitchens.

- You mentioned culinary school.

You came to Rhode Island to study cooking at Johnson & Wales.

As you started to make your way after that, how did you kind of decide what your course would be, where you wanted to go, and how did you pursue that?

- Getting a job, I started to like see the city in a different way, where people hang out after work, like where industry hang out, like all those things started.

It's still like, it's been a slow process of allowing this city and the state kind of slowly open up to me and like become something that I really like and can find solace and joy in a lot of different areas around here.

So working through college has always, was always that kind of like, okay, I'm working through college.

I've like done the thing.

I'm in the trenches.

And I kind of like love the idea of advancing.

I think to a little bit to my detriment to a certain extent where I was like so gung-ho in becoming a chef of a restaurant or a sous chef of a restaurant, like the title mattered more than the process.

And I think that fed into me thinking I was more mature than I was at a very young age.

And then, that kind of, you know, that's a house of cards when it comes to a foundational as far as like who you are as a person and where you are.

It's like as long as I work hard, everything falls into line.

But if you don't take time to develop yourself as a person, I found that it can make you feel really stunted.

But then, there's also finally staying in Rhode Island for a summer 'cause every year during college, I would leave, I would go home, or I would like go to a job in, you know, North Carolina, or Georgia, or something like that.

Just like to get out because that meant more to go closer to bigger cities.

But then to finally have a summer where you stay in Rhode Island, it's kinda like, oh, right, a lot of people come here for the summer and now I kind of get it.

And so like finding the joy in the state that I'm living in with all of its seasons to me is like, I don't know, that's just... I'm slow to take to a lot of things, but like once they fully take on, like I'm all in with it.

- You traveled and worked at some different places.

You worked at The Dorrance before opening your first restaurant.

As you started to open restaurants, how did you come up with your ideas for what you wanted to put on the menu and what was your vision for that?

- It was very much I think like during college I developed this sense of like I wanted to be a fine dining chef.

I think like the only good chefs that I looked up to were fine dining chefs, regardless of how faulty that kind of idolization is and like how much you can, especially now what I know about owning restaurants as long as I have, it's sort of like what you read is different than what's the real life of everything, but I did love it.

I loved the high pace, you know.

It was very much a high intensity, sort of like sports centric style, like, you know, comradery and like I love that.

I mean, that's the whole reason why I think I got into kitchens to begin with is that it felt like it was a natural move from going from sports to in kitchens.

And then, what it became, it became much more than that.

It became my identity for a lot of, for, you know, for lack of a better word for it.

- Did you play sports as a kid?

- Yeah, I played a lot.

It was like something that I was thinking about going to college to do.

And I fell outta love with it, because it became too much routine and I kind of reject routine.

I've found out about my personality that if I do the same thing for over and over again, over again, I will fully reject it and fall outta love with it.

And even though restaurants are lot of routine, it's chaos every day.

There's always something different and like it's enough to keep, like it's not enough to keep me.

It does keep me busy, you know what I mean?

It keeps it random and I love that.

And I love the idea that owning my own restaurant can, I can dictate how it kind of goes.

Like the only reason why a restaurant can fall into sort of a routine is my own doing.

And so, I have no interest in kind of staying in the same.

I mean obviously like I moved Oberlin to a new location.

I'm always looking for like a ways to either improve or scratch an itch, you know?

- Yeah.

Related question.

It was kind of lost on me 15, 20 years ago when culinary foams became a big thing.

I'm not like strictly a meat and potatoes guy, but that was a little too far out there for me.

You seem very creative.

How do you walk the line between wanting your food to be accessible, while at the same time being creative and unexpected?

- I think accessible is a, that terminology changes to each person and it's something I think about a lot, right?

Because these restaurants, for all intents and purposes, push what is a luxury thing, right?

Like I employ 75 people and that to me means a lot.

And I'm willing to do whatever it takes to keep paying those people.

And so, accessibility becomes a little bit harder at that point, right?

So, the prices have to be what they are.

It's not a hotdog stand, you know.

I'm not the only one who's working at this thing that dictates how much I can, how I want to charge, right?

So, how I stay creative is just the, I think finding different ways to ingratiate myself with this state and its farmers and its growers and the relationship with sourcing.

And sourcing is just like people throw around that term a lot when it comes to sourcing, whether you're farm to table.

Literally every restaurant in the world is farm to table, unless all their food's coming from a lab.

Literally everything kind of comes from there.

But to me, it's the fact that I've got all of these people who I value as friends, as people that are sourcing these things.

And so, the importance of that ingredient on the plate is where I find most kind of joy in those things and offering.

And like there's also the part of it where the dollar stays in Rhode Island and I love that.

And I think that's how it should be.

I think it, that is where I think I find most of my value and creativity is like how do we be creative with the ingredients we have, how do we make sure that the young people that are coming into work here feel like there's something to achieve, something that they can take away from this place.

I think that to me is where I'm more at.

Whereas the food part of it, it's like, I think with every kind of chef, the older they get, the more simplistic foods are, the more like how much can we get away with taking away from a dish, while it's still being what people pay their money for and leaving satisfied, right?

So, I think that's the balance that I'm kind of achieving.

And then, it's also finally getting the chance to go to Italy and see what it's like to eat in somebody's home and what regional cooking is like, and not copying that, but seeing how my lens can be shifted based on what's available around here.

- Your menu here at Oberlin seems kind of deliberately obscure.

What I mean by that is that even if a person knows quite a bit about food, there are often a lot of words that are unfamiliar.

On the other hand, we live in an age when everyone has a smartphone in their pocket and it's kind of a thing to look up unfamiliar food terms on their phone.

So, tell me about that.

- What are you wanting to know?

- Well, is that it seems by design that you have a lot of obscure terms on your menu that even if you're pretty, even if you're a frequent diner and an enthusiastic home cook, you might not be familiar with that.

So, what is the thinking in in making the menu that way?

- I like, to me, I think there's... I don't wanna dumb things down for the sake of making it easy for everybody.

I think people are smarter than we give them credit for.

So whether that's looking it up on their phone, like that's great.

Or what we do a lot, and it's something we spend a ton of time on, is getting all of our staff up to terms what those terms are.

So if somebody comes in and they look like a deer in headlights, we're there to land the plane.

You know what I mean?

And so, I don't like to dumb things down for the sake of ease of... 'Cause it would be to me, it's not staying true to what say like this dish is that's from this certain region.

Like to make it, to change the wording just so it's easy to read to me is sort of like, that's like the, I don't know, the like the worst kind of stew of like here's this ingredients, right?

I love to be able to tell some sort of a story.

Like so if there's one dish that has one term that say is not familiar to everybody, that's because we've looked into it.

There's a story behind it.

But then also, we're here to explain that to you and make it very simple.

And just like, yes, it's a, it might be an intimidating term or it might be something that you like don't have never had before, but we do, we go to such lengths here to make like trial and error with food and make things taste good and make 'em be approachable.

But I don't, I think people are smarter than we leave on to believe.

Like yes, like it's not a McDonald's menu.

It's not like burger cheese, fries on the menu, but it is all of these products coming together that we feel are delicious.

And there has to be like trust, right?

Like we're gonna trust you to look at this menu and not be scared to run away.

But when you come in, I hope you can trust that we're gonna help you through every part of this menu.

And that also goes with Gift Horse too.

- I appreciate your answer, because I've been impressed by how your staff here projects a kind of relaxed confidence and expertise.

And they do a wonderful job of answering questions or offering to explain things so- - I hope they all listen to this and see this.

I can't wait for them.

I hope they hear this 'cause they deserve that credit.

- What kind of training goes into that?

- It's intense.

I mean, there was the, what we've found out from moving locations is that we could be way more informal over there.

Meaning that like it was so small that we could like be watching everything.

Whereas it's over here, we're not seeing everything.

So it's, you know, it's weeks of training.

It's tests.

It's every day, we have almost an hour of primo, where we're discussing every single thing that's on the menu, going over all the olive oils that we have, where they come from, why we chose them with everything.

And it's over knowledge, that way, they're the experts.

And I think there's, I love giving people the opportunity to become an expert when you're talking with somebody else.

Like I love being also on the other side of that, where I'm not the expert and somebody explains things to me.

It's to me like that's like the wrinkle in the brain I'm always looking to get.

- I don't wanna simplify your restaurants, but if asked, I would say Gift Horse has a lot of raw seafood.

Oberlin's kind of a lot of pasta, a lot of cooked seafood.

How would you sketch out the difference between two restaurants?

- I mean, one's a raw bar.

I think Gift Horse is a raw bar, right?

So, it's the one thing that I've always wanted to do.

And I've always felt like to go back to what I think another question you were asking about like why did I choose the restaurants or what was a big motivation, there was like one, like I didn't quite finish it where I was talking about like fine dining was this like, kind of like thing I wanted to do, right?

Like I had always done like little bits of fine dining here and there.

But then like when Oberlin came about, it was like, okay, so we're in a city that takes a lot of pride in it's Italian heritage.

And I always felt like I wanted to have a place where I could go in where there's a menu of handmade pastas.

And I felt like I could add to this, add to that kind of like pride when it comes to that.

And like you're coming here, if you wanna come to Rhode Island, if like, if you're like that idea of like seeing the Italian Heritages, there are places that are still doing handmade pasta and like I wanna add to that.

I wanted to be also be one of those places.

At the same time, we're in Rhode Island.

If your menu, I think to not have a seafood forward menu is kind of you're ignoring what all of our, where we are in a lot of sense, right?

So, Gift Horse came about because we didn't have, I didn't really sell, I didn't really use those oysters a lot.

And it was this one thing that was nagging at me that I don't know a lot of oyster farmers and like I love knowing, getting to know farmers and I love getting to know the sources really, really well.

But like, and that's a huge one, right?

Like I have fishermen that I'm friends with.

I have clamors that I'm friends with, but not oysters.

- How did you strike up those relationships?

- Reached out to 'em, just cold call.

It's the same thing that we did with Birch.

It's the same thing we did even at The Dorrance and like also with the new Oberlin, just cold call and they're ready.

And it's, I think we get mired in a lot of, when it comes to like Department of Health or DEM when it comes to sourcing where we are relegated to go through channels of middle people or like having to like get a complete disconnection from the growers.

But with oyster farmers, you can just reach out to 'em and it was like this thing that I've always like, felt like I was missing to become a seafood restaurant in Rhode Island.

So, I think the differences between the two is that Oberlin is, yeah, Oberlin leans more towards whole fish, and pastas, and crudos, and like an Italian sense, where it's like I think Oberlin is kind of like a mix of a bunch of regions in Italy that I've taken from, just because I don't know enough about it to be hyper regional and I'm also not from Italy.

So, I think like there's a part of that that is like we, I can have the mindset of like how you go about cooking, but I have to apply it to what's available here.

And then, Gift Horse is a raw bar and it's obviously going through iterations with our past chef that we had there and her moving on, with Sky moving on.

And so it's the name of the restaurant implies though that the menu will be what it is.

It's the tongue in cheek, like don't look a Gift Horse in the mouth, right?

It's that whole thing.

- How does that affect a restaurant?

I mean, a restaurant like any longstanding business has changed over time.

People come and go.

You mentioned how Sky Kim, your chef at Gift Horse, returned to South Korea.

So, is that just something that you work with or does that really change the identity of a restaurant?

- It's always a part of it.

I mean, sure, I think in this instance it does change a big part of it, right?

But there's no replacing Sky.

I mean, the other thing that's noted is that Sky took her husband Chris, who used to be the chef of Oberlin as well with her.

And we lost two big personalities with that.

Like the thing that I like... It's a hard question to answer, right?

Because Gift Horse was kind of conceived before Sky took it on.

But Sky had such a long history and like I had trusted her so much that when she wanted to come on and she wanted to take this position as the chef of Gift Horse, it completely changed everything.

You know, there's the like mainly the direction, like how the seasonal dishes change, how any of the dishes kind of change.

There's the staples that like, where I was pretty hard and true that I wanted to keep the exact same, because I feel like there's some things raw bar offerings have to do, but she changed it in a way that was uniquely her.

And so, there's no point in me that's like, well, I'm not gonna continue doing that.

I'm not gonna be me doing Korean food.

I've never been to Korea.

I've like, my closest like relationship to Korea is everything that Sky's taught me, which is a lot.

But as far as imprint and everything, I still, like I think the, to touch on something you and I were talking about earlier, was whoever's running the ship deserves the credit.

You know, I'm here to guide.

I'm here to, you know, provide input, and direction, and see the kind of zoomed out picture.

But when it comes to the day to day like if Sky's running it, Sky deserve the credit and she rightfully got it.

And I think that's been a shift for me, because I'm not necessarily on the line every single day.

- Providence, like a lot of cities, has a lot less foot traffic than before the pandemic.

Your restaurants here on Westminster Street are kind of a beacon that project vitality and bring people to the center of the city.

How are you feeling about downtown in general these days?

- Today?

How do I feel about it?

It changes all the time, right?

Like, I think like today, like the seasonals, like at least there's some activity happening downtown, but I think downtown is relying too much on its business owners as far as wanting to see this culture that comes about.

Like we can't make public restrooms happen.

We can't make the housing crisis better with where we are, right?

So, it puts a lot of pressure on us, and I feel that pressure sometimes when it comes to Friday nights when there's nothing going downtown or, you know, like if PPAC isn't, doesn't have, it's their season's over right now.

So, like what's kind of going on?

I think there's... We're missing an opportunity to allow the arts to come in.

I feel there's spaces, there's availability here, but there's no venues.

And nobody's willing to put in the work to kind of make those venues work necessarily.

And that's protecting the value of their property, protecting the value of the resale or whatever, or a way to get in on politics.

I just, it does feel like I have, it can feel like I have no idea what the direction is of downtown.

- On a related note, some people think Rhode Island is a difficult place to operate a small business.

How do you look at that?

- Absolutely, I completely agree.

I think our taxes are insane.

I think it's hard to employ people, because there's no infrastructure to get them home when restaurants let out.

I know there's been initiatives when it comes to like giving vouchers for ride shares and all of that kind of thing, but it's like the amount of infrastructure we would need to make downtown happen would require a lot of tough calls.

And it just seems like it's so polarizing that the easiest thing to do is to not do it.

So, it's difficult.

The roads are difficult.

Parking is difficult.

Rents are difficult.

And it's not to say that there aren't some people trying to do it, but I feel like as there's nobody reaching out with direct, like with us being able to have a direct line to people that make the changes on infrastructure, you know.

I feel we could add to that.

It just doesn't seem like it's gonna be met with any sort of empathy.

- You talked about the importance of sourcing and the relationships you have with various suppliers.

How are you feeling about the health of Rhode Island's food ecosystem these days?

Particularly with many fishermen concerned about the impact of wind power.

- I think it's all under attack.

I think every single bit of it is under attack.

It breaks my heart, like it's a whole reason why we're doing a bake sale is to benefit the South Side Community Land Trust and the food bank, right?

So, South Side Community Land Trust does a lot when it comes to allowing immigrants to have access to farming capabilities and to kind of make a living by doing that in food systems.

I think it's something that is on a zoomed out scale is completely taken for granted when it comes to farmers.

I think zoomed in, you have a lot of local communities that value it, but it seems like when it comes to dealing with either the whole picture or everything like that, it's very easy to just allow them to come under attack.

I think it's fragile.

I don't think there's many genera, there's new farmers coming on, there's, but it feels like there's less generational farmers happening.

It feels like there's less generational fishermen happening, you know, whether they're pulling up their nets because of the wind farm.

It's something that I'm just so against to begin with that I would love to, because I've gone to public forums when it comes to wind farms and the way in which you can convey your worries about it gets wrapped up into politicization of it all is disheartening.

Nobody's listening.

So, I think it's fragile.

I think it's we try our best, but we're, you know, we're a drop in a bucket when it comes to the, in all the farms in Rhode Island, you know what I mean?

And surrounding areas.

And I think that I'd like more initiative.

Again, this is like, this is going back to the point where I'm saying it's putting so much pressure on places like us that are small businesses and where's the infrastructure to support everyone else when it comes to that transportation, access to funding, and all of those things.

It feels like it's under attack and it's like, it's a very, we're I think at an interesting time where it feels like if you're floating or flying kind of falling or flying, you know what I mean?

Where I don't necessarily know where some of our farmers will be in two years.

- In closing, what is the best book that you've read about food or restaurants?

- There is always something to be said about that sounds like such a typical answer, but like a Bourdain book on kitchens is a very true aspect to it, I think, good and bad, right?

I think the comradery of those kitchens is very true, but I think the misogyny is also still true in a lot of restaurants and kitchens and chaos and agents of chaos and people who do well with that and don't do well with that.

Whether that's "Kitchen Confidential," or "Heat," by Bill Buford, which are really good access points to kitchens.

But I like knowing what I know it's there, and like for instance, like "The Bear," like it's a glorification of something that is really grimy.

It can be really grimy.

It can be really hard.

It can be backbreaking.

It can be stressful.

Just understand that if you read those books, don't glorify kitchens.

They're hard work.

They're stressful.

And a lot of people can't handle the stress, which is why I say to everyone, like it's why is there, like I think therapy should be a thing that's offered for free for all.

I think all people, but like knowing just I can only speak on my industry is just like I think all restaurants should go to therapy when it comes to that.

There's Ada Boni, who writes regional cooking in Italy and these like really obscure recipes.

And then there's, so I think "The Moosewood Cookbook," which was like a very seminal like vegan cooking book.

- Yeah, that's a big one back in the day.

- Yeah, so that just came to my like attention for the first time a couple weeks ago.

And so like, I just can't get over, like I love that that book was popular at a time and like I wish that could be, that kind of book could be popular all the time.

- Ben Sukle, it's been a pleasure.

Thanks so much for sitting down.

- Happy to be here.

- Thanks for watching "One on One," with me, Ian Donnis.

You can find all of our past interviews on Ocean State Media's YouTube channel.

We'll see you next week.

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