♪ >> PAYTON: Hello and welcome to "Ope or Nope," the beloved and long-running show within a show, where we dig deep into milestones of pop culture from the Midwest.

I'm Payton Whaley, and we have a great double feature to get into, but before we do that, I would like to introduce my very special guests.

From the IU Cinema is Michaela Owens and the IU Cinema Podcast, Aja Essex.

How are y'all doing?

>> I'm doing great.

[ Laughter ] >> I'm all right.

>> Michaela, how are you doing?

>> Eh, I'm all right.

[ Laughter ] That's pretty much how I always answer.

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: So we have two movies of, I would say, varying quality to get into.

>> You are being so kind.

>> You are being very diplomatic.

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: Before we do, that I want to start with both of y'all.

I guess, Michaela, I'll get started with you.

Tell me a little bit about yourself and what you do.

>> I am the -- it's a long title -- communications and outreach media specialist at IU Cinema.

So basically, communications and marketing.

And we have a blog as well, Establishing Shot, that I write, and that Aja writes for also, and I edit that as well.

>> PAYTON: And Aja, tell me about yourself.

>> I am the podcast producer, host, and editor for the Indiana University Cinema.

I also write for the blog.

And then as far as other Indiana adjacent things that I do, in Bloomington adjacent things I do, I help run Cicada Cinema, which is a pop-up cinema in Bloomington, Indiana, where we just try to bring movies that would have otherwise not played in Bloomington, Indiana.

>> PAYTON: And today, you are here to talk about movies I gave you for homework.

[ Laughter ] So -- >> There's, like, good homework, and then there's -- >> PAYTON: And then there's what I did to you.

>> Well, I won't lean too heavily.

>> PAYTON: We'll get there.

We'll get there in time.

>> He's not in Italy.

He's in Bloomington, Indiana.

[ Horn honking ] >> PAYTON: "Breaking Away" is a 1979 coming-of-age film that harkens back to a time when guys could just bro out in their wet jeans on a limestone slab, and stress about their plans for the future.

Oh, and there's also, like, a bike race at the end or something.

It's directed by Peter Yates, and stars Dennis Christopher, and Dennis Quaid, who apparently has never not looked 40.

You might call this a time capsule of Bloomington in the past, which is a cute way of saying Bloomington's infrastructure hasn't been updated in 43 years.

Overall, what did you think about "Breaking Away," the 1978 -- >> '79.

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: So what did y'all think about the 1979 -- a year I have etched in my brain -- classic?

>> Michaela, you should go first.

>> I'm an editor.

So this was my second time watching this.

I liked this movie a lot.

I'm not a big sports movie person.

>> PAYTON: Right, me either.

>> But I am a big Dennis Quaid person.

So A+ on that front.

[ Laughter ] >> I -- this was the first time I had watched this film, despite having lived in Bloomington half of my natural life.

I had somehow not avoided it on purpose.

I'd just never gotten around to it.

There had been screenings.

I didn't get to go to them, whatever.

And I am a big fan of sports movies, and to me, this stands in the -- despite not being a fan of sports.

But this, to me, stands in the pantheon of, like, my top ten favorite sports movies.

>> PAYTON: Really?

>> This was such a discovery for me.

>> PAYTON: Awesome!

>> Well, because it's not quite what you think it's going to be.

>> PAYTON: I would barely call it a sports movie.

>> We both watched it on Father's Day, unintentionally.

>> Unintentionally!

>> And not together, I should say.

>> No!

[ Laughter ] >> But it's a great movie for Father's Day.

>> I was going to say, the whole relationship with the -- I'm not great with character names right now because I watched it for the first time.

>> PAYTON: Oh, we are going to skip right over character names.

There -- >> Well, for all intents and purposes, I will call him a weeb, but towards Italy.

[ Laughter ] >> Honestly.

>> That relationship between him and his father, while also a good Father's Day subplot -- you know, because it's, like, generational divide.

And, like, there's this whole -- I mean, there's this whole theme about, like, these being the sons of people who actually were cutters, but they, themselves, not being able to actually do the thing that would give them some respectability in the community.

But I also kind of like -- just my reading of it -- is that it's kind of also, like, a gay or queer allegory because it's about a father who doesn't understand, like, his son's proclivities and, like, how he's, like, changed and evolved.

Even the tenor of the conversations are different, and also there's, like, the things of him going into the bathroom and being, like -- being shell shocked that he's just shaving his legs.

>> Shaving his legs.

>> To me, that's obviously not the intent, but it feels very queer coded.

>> PAYTON: He's not queer.

He's just Italian.

>> He's not queer.

He's just Italian.

[ Laughter ] The things they used to say about Roberto Benigni.

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: I'm in the same boat as Aja.

I had never seen this before.

I've lived in Bloomington for the past, like, four and a half years.

And it was always one of those where people, like, you've seen that, right?

And I just never got around to it.

But this was such an easy breezy watch.

I was honestly very surprised at how much the Little 500, the bicycle race that happens in Bloomington every year was talked up to be, like, oh, this is the Little 500 movie, but how small of a relative part that really played.

>> It literally becomes a plot point almost halfway through the movie.

They're like, if you are going to settle this, you should settle it at the race.

>> And they don't even think they are going to do it until, like, the last, like, 10, 15 minutes.

>> And, like, the fact that the Italian weeb is -- is a bicyclist is like you know it's going to lead to the Little 500 race.

>> PAYTON: Right.

>> Except for the race with the Italians, where he has, like, his dreams crushed or whatever, like.

>> PAYTON: Brutally.

>> It doesn't really fact -- I mean, so brutal!

But also he is kind of annoying.

I understand.

>> Oh, my God, Aja!

Yeah, get him, Italians!

[ Laughter ] >> No, they shouldn't flip his bike over by shoving a rod in it.

>> PAYTON: That was wild.

>> That was wild.

That's also a wild stunt because someone actually did that, and it's crazy to control that.

But, like, it's such an afterthought in the movie until the last part of the movie, but it kind of becomes this, like, thrilling tense part of the movie, simply because they are doing so well at the beginning of this race.

>> PAYTON: Right.

>> And then you have, like, the second act of the race, where it kind of almost becomes a comedy of errors.

>> PAYTON: So it's these four friends that have, like, seemingly known each other forever.

They're four townies, which they went with the term "cutters" which was not popular, but the original word is like stonies or stoners.

>> Oh!

Okay.

>> PAYTON: Honestly iconic.

[ Laughter ] >> I think the script, which won an Oscar, I believe, is really -- I think it's really good.

There's some lines in there that are just, like, daggers to me.

Like -- I didn't mean to hit my mic.

>> I mean, specifically the one that stuck out to me that I told you about after watching the movie was the line about -- >> They are going to keep calling us cutters.

To them, it's just a dirty word.

To me, it's just something else I never got a chance to be.

>> That's, like, working-class poetry right there.

You could say that about any town where, like, an industry has moved out, and the people there are, like, despite being pillars of this community and, like, being the thing that will constantly be there, like, everyone constantly just looking down on them.

>> PAYTON: There was also, I mean, weirdly funny.

I did not expect it to, like -- >> It is a very funny movie.

>> Yeah, it's really funny.

Like, Daniel Stern is -- >> He's great!

I love Daniel Stern!

>> He's there for pure comedy.

[ Laughter ] >> I'm, like, low-key, like, one of Daniel Stern's biggest fans.

Always happy when he shows up in the movie.

>> Did you know he was in this movie?

>> No.

So this is the other thing, I -- this movie is so poorly advertised because in -- in Bloomington because people take it for granted.

People really just talk about it as the Little 5 movie.

>> PAYTON: The fun of it is seeing, you know, for better or worse, how little Bloomington has changed.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

The whole time you're watching the movie.

I know where that is.

I know where that is.

I walk there every day.

>> But it is also that weird thing of, like, how is this not changed almost at all structure-wise?

Like at all.

Like, nothing is that different.

>> Because Bloomington is so intrinsic to this movie.

Like, if you take it out -- >> PAYTON: It doesn't work.

>> -- it's not the movie.

It's not.

>> Yeah, a weird lazy college town movie without the -- like, the college town does not work.

>> Yeah.

>> PAYTON: There could have been any number of shots where they're, like, yeah, just needs to be a cornfield, and we can just shoot that somewhere.

>> Yes.

I mean, it is that thing of, just like, everyone's perception of the Midwest, especially Indiana, that is just cornfields and flatness and, like, whatever.

And, like, to an extent that is true.

To an extent that is actually true.

But at the same time, when you get into these individual little towns or cities in Indiana, they each have their own distinct little character.

Like Bloomington doesn't really look or feel anything like Terre Haute, which doesn't feel or look anything like Indianapolis.

>> PAYTON: For what it's worth, I did get a little chuckle out of Dennis Quaid being, like, let's get out of this podunk town.

Let's go to Terre Haute.

>> Yes!

>> I know!

>> You're dreaming big, Dennis Quaid!

>> PAYTON: No insult to Terre Haute.

It just made me chuckle.

>> Yeah.

>> PAYTON: A proud tradition that is carried on today, scamming college kids with used cars.

>> Absolutely!

Oh!

>> Right?

[ Laughter ] >> As someone who once got to be privy, like, just kind of, like, walking by a used car lot and watching someone get scammed in realtime with a car that, like, I knew for a fact had been on that car lot for like ten years.

And them saying, yep, like, just got here the other day.

And then, like, sat around and just watched them be -- oh, they actually bought this overpriced car, and then them actually buying it, and walking away, like, wow.

>> And you did nothing?

>> I did nothing!

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: Before we wrap up with "Breaking Away," I do want to talk a little bit about the Little 500 scene.

What are your experiences with Little 500 as an event?

>> I stay away from it.

>> PAYTON: I do too.

>> I don't want any part of that.

>> I have never been to Little 500, the race, but in my undergrad, I went to Little 500 the week on Bloomington campus of just being -- >> PAYTON: You can't avoid it.

>> You can't avoid it.

So even if you are trying to be good, and you are not, like -- you will inevitably stumble into some sort of Little 5 event.

>> PAYTON: I do want to give a big shout out to the team in the Little 500 scene that had a shirt that said Arby's.

>> Yes, I saw that!

>> PAYTON: From the moment I saw them, I said, I'm not rooting for the Cutters anymore!

>> Where can I get me one of those?

>> I want team Arby's.

>> I'm rooting for team Arby's.

>> Team Big Beef and Cheddar.

>> PAYTON: The way we do things, as everyone knows.

We've done this forever.

We give it an ope or we give it a nope.

Ope is a big thumbs up.

Nope is a big thumbs down.

I think I know what you are going to say.

But what do you give "Breaking Away"?

>> Ope.

>> I'm scooting past you at the grocery store, and I'm giving you a big old ope.

>> PAYTON: It is a big ope.

It is opes across the board.

[ Laughter ] Our second film for the day, maybe less so.

We'll find out in a sec.

>> Maybe.

>> Maybe?

♪ >> You might have heard about the prom in Indiana.

>> I just want to go to prom like any other kid.

>> All opposed?

>> PAYTON: One thing is universal.

And that's if you ever want your guests to come back to your show, don't force them to watch "The Prom."

When a high schooler is barred from her prom for wanting to bring her girlfriend, a group of fading Broadway stars descend on the fictional town of Edgewater, Indiana, for a PR stunt masquerading as activism.

This movie is directed by Indiana native and "Glee" harbinger Ryan Murphy, and stars Meryl Streep, James Corden, Nicole Kidman, Nicole Kidman's pageboy cap, and many, many more.

This film clocks in at a breezy two hours and 12 minutes.

Aja and Michaela, what did you think of "The Prom"?

>> I thought why did Payton do this to us?

>> I thought -- hey, I saw some behind-the-scenes Payton emails originally.

It was, like, there will be three movies "The Prom," "Hoosiers" and "Breaking Away."

And we're, like, great.

We can't really probably discuss all three of those movies.

What if we discussed two of them?

Fully thinking that it would be, like, you're right, "Hoosiers" and "Breaking Away."

[ Laughter ] This person -- [ Laughter ] -- decided to inflict us upon -- so if you can guess, I was not the biggest fan of "The Prom."

>> Yeah.

It's a no for me, dawg.

It's just -- yeah.

I mean -- I can't even tell you, like, what the songs are, what they sound -- like, I can't remember them at all.

>> PAYTON: Why the heck did I make them watch this?

So this is -- this is set in Indiana.

It is not written, but is directed by Ryan Murphy, of "Glee," "Nip/Tuck," "American Horror Story" fame, lots of stuff for NetFlix going on right now.

He is an Indianapolis native.

He -- we are in his alma mater right now.

So he has a lot of local ties to Indiana.

I get the vibe from this that he hates Indiana.

>> Absolutely!

>> Really?

>> I actually got to agree with you.

I think he kind of hates Indiana.

>> Yeah.

>> PAYTON: I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, where Indiana stands on acceptance, and where Indiana stands on politics, but nobody -- nobody was really given the kind of depth that you think would be interesting to watch.

It was -- it was very one note across the board for people.

The only person, Keegan-Michael Key, who plays the principal, he's not a raging bigot, but then he also has a whole song sung in an Applebee's about how amazing theater is, and how life changing it was for him.

And I just found the whole thing to just be kind of off putting.

>> I like earnest movies, trust me.

I had a good time when we showed "Speed Racer" at the IU Cinema.

I had a great time.

But this is just cheesy in a bad, bad Lifetime movie way.

>> Yes.

It's cheesy for someone who is not sincere, who is trying to be sincere.

I mean, I think an element of a lot of Ryan Murphy's work, in my opinion, is that there is this kind of, like, above-it-all-ness to it.

>> PAYTON: Very cynical.

>> Yes, very cynical.

But it's like, well, if you are trying to make the earnest musical about the little gay girl in her high school, and, like, gay rights in the Midwest and things like that, you kind of have to come at it in a place of, like, empathy.

I'm going to say one of my three nice things.

There are two -- >> PAYTON: Okay.

We will count them down.

[ Laughter ] >> There are two songs and set pieces in this movie I legitimately enjoy, and one of them is, like, do I count it because it's just aping something.

One is the "Love Thy Neighbor" song.

>> Yes.

>> While it is, like, this whole gospel pastiche, which is, like, a little overplayed and it's, like, in the mall.

Whatever, it does kind of follow that rule of, like, if you can't say it, sing it.

It actually does follow that rule, and it is the one song where the hook does, actually, get stuck in my head.

>> PAYTON: Okay.

>> And he's giving it his all.

Like, there's a lot of great choreography.

And the other one, do I count it?

It's just a Fosse ripoff.

It's Nicole Kidman's number.

Why is it good?

Because it's just Fosse.

>> PAYTON: Question for the room.

What is zazz?

>> Give it some zazz.

>> PAYTON: You know, it certainly got my attention.

>> Give it some zazz.

>> PAYTON: I wish I could say the same thing about "Love Thy Neighbor," but to me, it felt like owning the bigots with facts and logic.

It was a lot of, like, very surface level writing.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Let me put it this way.

I don't think it's a well-written song.

I think it's a well-produced song.

>> PAYTON: Okay.

>> But it changed four students' minds, Aja.

[ Laughter ] >> All right.

Can we get to the elephant?

Can we get to James Corden?

>> PAYTON: We can get to James Corden.

Tell me about James Corden.

>> You are so deflated.

>> PAYTON: Corden, himself, is not a gay man.

>> Nope.

>> PAYTON: Plays what feels like a rejected "Will & Grace" character.

>> Yes.

>> My brand is a little tarnished at the moment.

>> Is it the infamous tirade at the Long Acre Theater?

>> Offensive in a way that, like, won't keep me up at night, but, like, offensive in a way where it's, like, it's technically not your fault because why would someone cast you in this -- like, in this role?

>> It was the voice that threw me so hard.

I was, like, there was absolutely no reason to do this voice.

>> PAYTON: It's one thing to have a British actor do an American accent, and it's -- it's not great.

But then on top of that, to go with a very ill-advised lisp is a choice, we'll say.

This film was not well received.

>> I'm shocked.

>> PAYTON: But the musical was.

The musical premiered in 2018 on Broadway, and a lot of the creative team behind the musical were on this as writers and producers.

It was nominated for seven Tonys, I believe, but I'm curious -- you know, I have not seen the stage production.

>> Yeah.

>> PAYTON: I'm curious kind of where that disconnect comes in.

>> Contemporary modern musicals have had this incredibly rough patch of, like, translating from stage to screen.

And some of that just has to do with the innateness of each medium.

Like, you are willing to forgive a lot in theater.

>> PAYTON: Oh, yeah.

>> Because you are filling in the gaps.

>> PAYTON: Right.

>> Like, your brain is literally filling in the gaps that you are not actually seeing on stage.

Film is such a literal medium, that I wonder if all of its blemishes just get amplified, like a thousand-fold, when you have to literalize everything.

>> Yeah, maybe.

Because I remember when the musical first was on Broadway, hearing about it.

And so you are expecting -- this is awful.

You are expecting the songs and the choreography to be better.

>> PAYTON: Yeah.

>> And they just were not there.

That choreography was not good.

It was not memorable.

The songs, again, not -- it's just -- I don't -- I don't understand why it was a hit on Broadway, to be honest.

>> PAYTON: I love a movie musical.

>> Yes.

Oh, me too.

>> PAYTON: My expectations are high.

I want it to blow me away.

>> Yes.

>> PAYTON: I want it to be big and bombastic and sincere.

None of this really blew me away.

None of it was too exciting; although, I did remember the not one, but two dubstep dance drops.

>> Yeah, that.

>> Oh, my!

>> PAYTON: I'm not sure if we have time for this, but Meryl Streep rapping over the credits.

♪ Because we talked so much about Bloomington with "Breaking Away," this is by all measures the opposite of that.

>> Yes.

>> PAYTON: So none of this was shot in Indiana.

It was mostly shot in California.

The one filming location not in California -- are you ready for this?

It's Massachusetts, because that's where the stock footage of the exterior of the Applebee's was shot.

[ Laughter ] >> They talk about it being a small hick town, and then I see that hotel that they are in, and I'm like -- that hotel -- >> Yeah, that's not a Hampton!

>> -- has, like, a fountain or something?

The mall, that was an incredible mall.

That is not an Indiana mall.

[ Laughter ] That -- our Indiana malls are sad and vacant.

[ Laughter ] >> It's honestly the opposite of what we enjoyed about "Breaking Away."

There is no sense of specificity to this.

They would have -- they could have just saved themselves the trouble, and just have at least based it off of a real town in Indiana or a real city in Indiana.

>> PAYTON: We're running long on time.

So I want to wrap up.

There's so much more.

>> It's okay.

>> PAYTON: This is a movie I kind of love to hate, although, it's not one I would ever sit down and make somebody else watch, like I have forced onto you.

>> There's not enough, like, good cringe in it for it to be, like, a thing, oh, you have to watch this train wreck.

It's not like "Dear Evan Hansen" or "Cats" or anything like that.

>> PAYTON: Although it does have a "Dear Evan Hansen" moment where she posts her song on YouTube, and you get all of these super imposed shots of, like, she's really reaching me, and, like -- hmm.

It was -- in the "Dear Evan Hansen," this kid's best friend died, you won't believe what happens next.

>> You won't believe what happens next!

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: Maybe the zazz thing.

>> Zazz.

>> PAYTON: For a movie that has so much of Indiana on its face value, don't get any of that.

Don't get any of that.

So with that being said, ope or nope?

What are we feeling?

>> What if I said ope?

[ Laughter ] >> PAYTON: After all that, there's something about it.

>> There's -- it intrigues me.

[ Laughter ] >> It leaves me wanting more.

I mean, look, it's a n-n-n-nope for me.

>> Yes.

No.

>> PAYTON: It is a touch of zazz, and a whole lot of nope.

>> Zazz!

>> PAYTON: As we start to wrap up, is there anything that y'all are working on that you want to plug?

>> I mean at the cinema, we have the blog, which we all work really hard on.

So would love to plug that.

>>> There is the podcast, IU Cinema Podcast, which will have a new name coming up soon and be formatted differently.

It's all under construction.

>> Yep.

And right now, the cinema is dark because we are doing some internal updates and getting a new screen and all sorts of fun things.

>> Mm-hmm, yes.

>> But we will be back in the fall semester.

>> If you live in Bloomington or Southern Indiana and you want to see some unique cinema, come to a Cicada Cinema screening.

You can find it on cicadacinema.com.

We partner with the IU Cinema quite often, and other Indiana orgs and things like that.

A big thank you to Aja and Michaela for joining me today.

Thanks so much, and I will see you next time.

[ Applause ] >> Give it some zazz!