I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

Despite diminished unemployment since the Great Recession, the class of underemployed looms largeand even larger, the los wages, income gap, and wealt concentrated among the Gilde few.

For this reason, bot Democrats and Republicans migh be forced to embrace economi populism in the next electio cycle, and with us today is on of the most zealous advocate of the middle class.

The longest-serving Independent in the history of the US Congress Senator Bernie Sanders o Vermont is weighing a potentia presidential campaign in 2016.

His December 201 filibuster of President Obama' extension of the Bush-er tax-cuts for hig income-earners galvanized grassroots campaign manifested later in the Occupy Wall Stree movement, whose participatio admittedly fizzled and eve fell brutally short during the 2014 midterm election.

Undeterred, Senator Sanders i most concerned with what h perceives as a democracy i disrepair dysfunction b oligarchy, thanks to a donor-rigged campaign system that perpetuates faile two-party rule So the first question I'll present to our guest i straightforward.

What is his realistic blueprint for reform If the Citizens United Supreme Court decision that sanctioned unlimited corporate influenc was the final nail in th coffin of the middle class, ho can Senator Sanders wage a viable populist agenda t overcome the present condition of the political system?

SANDERS: Well, Alexander, I'''m speechless, you said i all.

Let'''s go home.

HEFFNER: (Laugh SANDERS: You'''ve asked, think the right question and I don'''t know the answer, but it''' worth exploring.

And this i what I think.

First of all th only area where I think yo weren'''t right in your openin statement, was Citizens United is not the end of the game for the Republican Party They want to go further an if you speak to the head of th Republican Party, Mr. Priebus, what he will tell you is tha they want to get rid of al campaign finance limitations s that the Koch brothers now wil not be forced just to spen hundreds of millions o independent expenditures or pu money into "dark" campaigns, s to speak, they will now be abl to give anybody a check for an unlimited sum of money directly.

So we cut through all the crap and we say, "You'''re working for me, here''' your check for $200 millio dollars, we'''re going to make you Governor of California, or whatever it may be.

You'''re employed by me".

That'''s wher they want to go.

We are living in a ver frightening moment of American history.

And that moment is that despite economic gains in the last six years unemployment is much lower tha it was when Wall Stree crashed, the financial syste is obviously a lot stronger an the deficit is a lot lower But despite all of that what w are seeing is a 35 year tren in which the middle class is shrinking and today we hav more people living in povert than almost any time in th history of the United States o America.

Meanwhile, people on top are doing phenomenally well, s that 95% of all new income goe to the top 1% and we have fo the most unequal distributio of wealth of any major country on earth, where one family the Walton family owns mor wealth than the bottom 40% o America.

HEFFNER: One thing that seems clear is that with a eroded middle class it will be impossible to champion and t ultimately reform and pass public finance.

The two thing are interlinked the, the state and condition of the middle class and the ability for, for public, or grass root financed campaign, is that right?

SANDERS: I'''m not so sur that it'''s right.

I mean you in the sense of what getting support, financial support fro the middle class of public funding of elections HEFFNER: I'''m wondering if what you'''re after is your ultimate goal public finance SANDERS: Yes.

HEFFNER: On this issue.

It is SANDERS: Absolutely loo we'''ve got to overturn Citizen United and move to publi funding HEFFNER: And you'''re sayin that it could be even more pernicious and damaging to our democracy than when we are today.

SANDERS: Yeah HEFFNER: When I ask about a viable platform for economic populism you'''re saying wait a second the floodgates coul even SANDERS: Absolutely HEFFNER: expand SANDERS: That'''s what the want HEFFNER: So what are th interim stages obviously you have to win the message war SANDERS: Right.

HEFFNER: but things tha occur to political scientist and journalists to capping expenditures, you can rais funds through private an public contributions, corporat and non-corporate, but i should be capped.

How do yo get from where we are today to public finance SANDERS: What we need and I often use this and it''' not rhetorical I mean it i we need a political revolution in this country.

What do I mean by that?

I this last mid-term election, you had something like 64% o the American people no bothering to vote.

You have a situation where almost 70% o the people cannot name the political parties that control the House and the Senate.

Mos people don'''t know who their member of Congress is.

What I can guarantee you, Alexander is there will be no substantiv change in politics in America, unless all of that changes unless tens of millions of people, especially those peopl who are really hurting today begin to say, "You know, Democracy is about m involvement in the political process, not just the Koch brothers, and I will be damned if I'''m going to see my job go to China, I will be damned i they'''re going to cut Social Security, I want my kid to b able to get a colleg education, I want decent wages for a decent income for my family and I'''m going to fight for that.

Unless we bring tha about, I am not hopeful abou the future of this country So you asked me about ho do you get the public fundin of elections?

How do you ge to anything?

How do you mak college affordable?

How do we end the disastrous child car situation in this country?

Ho do you have a tax system i which one out of fou corporations today does not pa anything in taxes, how do yo change that?

We can go and on But nothing happens unless people are galvanized an participating in the political process.

HEFFNER: I think th argument is nothing happens, too, if we don'''t have publi free and fair elections.

Right.

As President, if you ran for President if you are a Presidential candidate at th time that this airs, because we'''re taping, would you support, as a chief priority campaign finance reform?

SANDERS: Absolutely and positively HEFFNER: Is that th number one issue SANDERS: I think it is, I'''ll tell you why.

You know, believe in a Medicare for all, single payer system.

I believ in raising the minimum wage to a living wage.

I believ absolutely that we have got to reverse global warming and transform our energy system.

Fifty years ago higher education in great universitie like the University of California or City Universit of New York were virtually free tuition you know that Today, working class peopl can'''t afford to go to school I believe we should change that, make college affordable.

But all of those issue pale and are not going to be dealt with unless you deal wit the fact that right no billionaires are able to own the United States Congress And the only way you deal with that is you overturn Citizen United and you move to publi funding of elections.

So if you want to run against me yo don'''t have to spend half you life raising money from th wealthy, but we will have an election based on ideas an maximum that either one of u can spend.

HEFFNER: In terms o viability, I hear you saying when you describe a grass root political revolution independence.

You are a independent Senator, though yo caucus with the Democrats, i that going to be central t building a coalition that will overtake the two party rul system SANDERS: Well, that'''s very fair question and I don''' know the answer to that.

mean recent history, or no even so recent history you'''re a little bit of a historian understand third party politics has not don particularly well in the Unite States I guess out of the Whigs came the Republicans.

But generally speaking the socialist party had a huge impact on FDR.

But the idea o building a third party is no so easy.

Now in the state o Vermont, when I was Mayor of the City of Burlington, we too on the Democrats and the Republicans.

We did have third party.

And in the State of Vermont probably you have the most significant third party in the United States o America I can'''t remember now seven or eight people in the Legislature not three member of the 10% of the Stat Senate is Progressive and number of people in the House.

So we'''ve done pretty well in Vermont.

But that is a hard task nationally.

But in terms that haven'''t made the decision if the question is "Am I going ru as an Independent or within HEFFNER: Not the question SANDERS: That'''s not th question okay.

HEFFNER: I think it jus goes to the origin of th issue, which as you describe it, you have an oligarchy, i essence, and from the intr which with which you seeme to concur and just that'''s th reality.

SANDERS: That'''s th reality.

HEFFNER: And therefore, you need to foster a political climate in which whether it''' independent in name, it has to be independent in spirit SANDERS: Yes.

HEFFNER: So, the model, even though he was a Democrat, is Howard Dean to some extent that is in recent Democratic memory.

But from where do you if, if not from Independen candidates in the past, from where do you, where do you fin the inspiration and, and let''' talk about the steps in orde to create a political campaign that is not bought and sold by corporations.

Because on national platform, there aren''' very many of them.

SANDERS: Right.

That'''s an excellent question and I wish knew all the answers.

And I really don'''t.

This is what I can tell you, which I think is good news.

And the good news is tha on virtually all of the majo economic issues, the America people are pretty progressive.

And if you look at what th Koch brothers stand for an their faction of the Republica Party, I would say tha represents 10%, 15% of where the American people are coming from So in a fair fight, wher our ideas can contrast wit theirs, we'''re going to win.

And it is not just Liberals an it is not just Activists you'''ve got a lot o Conservatives out there, and you know what they say the say "America is no billionaires buying elections" There are Conservatives come up to me all the time and say, "You know, Bernie, you'''re right, I'''m worried about this concentration of ownership and wealth in America.

That'''s no what America is about.

And they worry about civil liberties.

So on many of th issues we have the people on our side.

Question is, how do you bring people together?

Ho do, through a media which is obsessed with personality an celebrity and seeing politic as a game, like the Red So versus the Yankees, as opposed to a serious discussion of the issues how do you do that?

It'''s tough.

All I could tell you is that I have been around the country and I think ther is a real yearning on the part of the American people to hear a real discussion on rea issues Just one question, I'''ll give it back to you.

As you know, productivity in th country for the average worker has exploded in recent years Right?

The average worker produces a lot more.

And ye that person is working longe hours for lower wages.

How di that happen?

Why did it happen, how do we transfor that.

You ever seen tha discussion on TV?

Not ver often.

That'''s what the American people want discussed HEFFNER: I'''m glad you mentioned the Republicans, too because I was gabbing before with our studio manager here and I said I was going to push you on this question not i you were going to partner with Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee, but in all honesty there is a strain of economi populism that has been exploited by members of both parties and it hasn'''t, i actuality furthered the goal of what you'''re describing livable wage, along thos lines.

Is there any opportunity here to coalesce with the forces of Conservativ economic populism to further make this mission of yours viable?

And I, and I know i may sound naïïve SANDERS: No, it'''s no naïïve HEFFNER: But is there a Republican economic populism that you sense in Washington DC that moves beyond tax cuts?

SANDERS: Here'''s what I think what the Republicans did very successfully in thi last mid-term election, is the said to working people all ove this country, they said, "Ho you doing?

Not so good, not s good.

Working longer hours fo lower wages, can'''t send my ki to college, it'''s Obama'''s fault, it'''s all Obama'''s fault.

Vote against Obama".

And that'''s ho they won the election.

I think, interestingly enough that if you talk to the Tea Party and you explain to the Tea Party the agenda of th Koch brothers, whose money founded the Tea Party, a lot o these working class guys would be very shocked to know that the Koch brothers want to en Social Security, end Medicare, end Medicaid, end a lot of programs that a lot of working class Tea Party people d believe in So our job is to reach out to those people.

So if your point is, is there a potential such as Rick Santorum, it is the people themselves.

I thin what happens with the Te Party, they are angry an they'''re angry for good reason They'''re working, you know, th average male worker today make $800 less in inflation accounted for dollars than h made 41 years ago.

Despit increases in productivity.

Should he be angry?

Damn righ he should be angry.

The problem is he'''s angry at the wrong people for the wrong reason.

And our job is to say "Hey, take a look at what''' really going on in thi country, who owns the country, who owns the Congress".

That''' a tough mission, but it'''s wort exploring.

HEFFNER: I mentioned thos two individuals because they have something of a blue colla origin SANDERS: Yeah HEFFNER: And is that wher you'''re going to ultimately fin the motivation SANDERS: Yeah HEFFNER: of the elected public official, public servan who, who makes this his or her mission?

SANDERS: Let me re-phrase the question HEFFNER: (Laughter) SANDERS: The future o this the future of thi country depends upon the working class of this countr getting angry at the right people for the right reasons and not the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

So instead of beating up on immigrants or worrying about gays or being offended that women are no your bosses what we have got to do is bring people together to say, "Are you comfortable with so few have so much wealt and power, while so many hav so little?

And it is going to have to be the working class of this country.

I don'''t mean t sound, you know HEFFNER: Socialist?

SANDERS: Well, that doesn'''t bother me the, you know, widely rhetorical here but that'''s where the people are.

That'''s where they are And there'''s a lot of anger out there and sometimes that anger turns to despair and sometimes that anger again, is is directed to the wrong people.

But we have got t work on that HEFFNER: Well, the ke words to this conversation thu far have been despair, dysfunction, disharmony SANDERS: All "d'''s" are we let'''s get off the "d'''s" HEFFNER: Let'''s get off th "d'''s".

And you mentioned President Obama and I want t raise this point with you.

After eight years it wil have been of, of a Obama/Biden ticket that wo and oversaw the economy of thi country.

Given the fact, as I sai in the opening tha unemployment ostensibly is better SANDERS: MmmHmm HEFFNER: let'''s assume the country doesn'''t wake up know that'''s what you'''re tryin to do, that'''s your mission what'''s the future?

Because Timothy Geithner and Jacob Lew the two men who'''ve held th post that would be important i kind of re-acquainting the country with the economy tha you'''re describing, as oppose to the investment banker economy they see the unemployment statistics improv and think everything'''s alright.

SANDERS: Here'''s wher we'''re at and I think you'''re right.

It is very fair for th President and his people t say, "Remember where we were six years ago?

Six years ag we were losing 700,000 jobs month unbelievable.

Today not so good, but we'''re gaining 200,000 jobs a month gaining Is that better?

It is."

Six years ago, you kno what the deficit was $1.

trillion, we'''ve cut that by more than half six years ago the bloody financial system in this country and the world was on the verge of collapse, no Wall Street is just doin honkey-dory they'''re doing great.

Are we better off?

Yeah.

Unemployment much lower etc.

But, what they forget to understand that while it''' better than it was six years ago, it is still, for th average person, quite bad HEFFNER: Worse?

SANDERS: worse than not six years ago HEFFNER: The recession?

SANDERS: no, no, no HEFFNER: Is it SANDERS: yeah, most o the new jobs being created since the recession pa substantially less than jobs that we lost.

So what you'''re seeing now is a lot of jobs ar being created, but many of the are low wage or part time jobs Give you one example There'''s been some modest growt in manufacturing.

That'''s good thing.

Okay.

A number o the manufacturing jobs now pay significantly less than they used to.

Did you know that?

So new plants are GE a yea ago they expanded their plan in Louisville, Kentucky.

An they added a couple of hundred jobs, good news.

And I asked the guy, well, why'''d you do that?

He says, "Well," in so many words America'''s now becoming competitive with the international competition i.e., the race to the bottom i such that wages have gone down benefits have gone down and if you understand that th American worker'''s more productive than the Chines worker, and transportation i expensive let'''s re-invest in America.

We'''ve driven down the standard of living of th average American worker.

An that'''s what people perceive that they are yeah, mayb they'''re better than they were six years ago, but when you'''ve got manufacturing jobs payin $12.00 an hour, which used t pay $20.00 an hour, that ain''' too good HEFFNER: The standard o living point is an important one, we'''ve talked with man guests so far on The Open Mind on this question of rugged individualism being an ethos o America, in contradiction to some of the values that you'''re talking about.

Can they co-exist?

Can, can we find standard of living that is decent, or at least sufficient enough which SANDERS: Good question.

And this is what I think.

You know I, I think that Scandinavia has not gotten the credit that it deserves.

I ha the Ambassador from Denmar coming to Vermont to do number of Town Meetings with m the summer before last, we had hundreds and hundreds of people coming out.

So you'''ve got a country is would you call democratic would yo call Scandinavia a, a socialis society?

Not really.

It is a vibrant capitalist society But what they have also done i to make sure that there'''s an equitable distribution o wealth and income.

What the also do is have a culture that says that, you know everybod has got to have a piece of the pie.

See the lowest wages i Denmark now, often negotiated, are more than double of what the minimum wage is in the United States.

You get sick i Denmark, you know what you walk into the doctor of your choice and you know how much you have to take out of your pocket?

Nothing because healt care is a right.

You know how much college education and graduate school cost i Denmark?

Nothing.

It is right.

They have an excellent child care system, so they hav created in that country an around Scandinavia societies which say, it is not just a fe who are going to make out like bandits but let'''s create a culture and a society in which everybody has at least a decen standard of living.

A Dan told me you know in Denmar it is pretty hard to becom very, very rich, and it is ver hard to be poor.

Well, in the midst of all that, can you b creative, can you be entrepreneurial, can you creat new businesses?

The answer is yes, you can, and you should b able to do that.

But I don''' think we want a society wher 95% of all new income goes t the top 1% and I don'''t want a culture where people say, "You know what I'''m making it, I got hundreds of millions, I''' the Koch brothers I got $8 billion, I'''ll be damned I''' going to destroy Socia Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

And people say, "Go for it, that'''s great, you can have it all.

I don'''t believe that'''s what America is supposed to b about.

So, to answer your question, yes, you can have you know you can have this individualist effort, you ca create wealth, you can creat new businesses, all that''' great.

But at the end of th day we should not have the highest rate of childhoo poverty of any major country o earth.

We should not have despite the modest gains o Obamacare, 40 million people without health insurance.

And I think that people will fee better when their effort create a society which is just for all people HEFFNER: You we als talked off camera about cultur gone awry in another sense which is civic illiteracy apathy.

What'''s the antidote SANDERS: Whew HEFFNER: that you preac on that.

SANDERS: I don'''t know tha I'''m preaching anything.

It'''s tough issue and I'''m trying t work it out HEFFNER: On the heels o this 2014 cycle SANDERS: I know, I know HEFFNER: you said tha young people who wer disengaged SANDERS: Look, look wha I can tell you this what I can tell you is that I worry very much about the future o democracy.

I mentioned Denmar a moment ago HEFFNER: MmmHmm SANDERS: in their las election, if my memory i correct something like 87% o 88% of the people voted.

Some people disagree, but you have vibrant democracy where people know what'''s going on.

In this country, most people don'''t know which political party controls the House or the Senate.

They don'''t who their Congressman is They really don'''t know muc about the budget.

And there are a lot of reasons for that.

But I'''m not going to blame the victim, which is the America people on that.

You know, w have enormously importan programs where people ar discussing the fate of the quarterback of the Washingto Redskins or the, you know, what'''s going on with Boston Celtics not a whole lot of discussion about what'''s goin on in the American economy Now how you get people re-engaged in the politica process is not easy.

But know for a start that one of the things we damn well have got to do is start talking about the issues that ar relevant to the American people.

And we just wen through a campaign where tha didn'''t happen HEFFNER: Who'''s your political hero SANDERS: Well, a couple come to mind, Eugene V. Debs you'''re familiar with Debs many viewers may not be.

Debs was a great labor organizer, head of the Railroad Workers Union.

He was a Socialist Party candidate for Presiden on 6 occasions, and many of th ideas that he espoused ended u becoming part of Roosevelt''' New Deal.

Martin Luther King, Jr. was a brilliant guy and lot deeper than I think yo know, he was more than just Civil Rights hero.

This is man who was a great organize and a very effective political leader.

Those are two peopl who come to my mind.

HEFFNER: Do you see yourself on the fringe, or d you see yourself as potentiall mainstream SANDERS: I don'''t quite ge that question in this sense.

I'''m a United States Senator, s by definition HEFFNER: I, I mea ideologically I mean SANDERS: No, I don'''t thin HEFFNER: Uh, huh SANDERS: I don'''t thin that my views, if I tell you I think the United States should join the rest of the world i guaranteeing health care through a Medicare for all single pay system now in the United States Congress that is a really radical idea.

You go all around th world, you go the UK and say that they say, "Yeah, we'''ve had a national health system since after World War II, what what is your issue there?"

If I say that I think that the wealthy should start payin their fair share of taxes an its wrong that one out of four corporations pay nothing i taxes, people are "Yeah, why is that so radical".

No, I, I HEFFNER: I'''m, I'''m no accusing you SANDERS: No, no, no, no I know you'''re not HEFFNER: but, but here''' the thing Debs, Kucinich I mean people who have provoke the minds of this country in profoundly different ways from the mainstream Ds and Rs SANDERS: Yeah HEFFNER: don'''t get th traction and you'''re beginning to get the traction.

SANDERS: In that sense, yeah.

Look, what I'''m tellin you and what I believe is wa outside of where most of m colleagues are absolutely.

Sometimes, it'''s very funny you know I go back to Vermon virtually every weekend.

And do Town Meetings we'''ve don hundreds of Town Meetings an talked to people.

When I go t Washington, it'''s like different planets.

You know, it'''s an hour and a half plane trip, bu it'''s like different worlds.

People are living over her and Congress is over here an the Congressional culture an what Congress is allowed t think about and the issues tha it is allowed to deal with are so very removed from where ordinary people are.

So, bottom line is i terms of what I believe yo know, it'''s not a question o mainstream you know I thin most Americans for example you go out there and you say "What do you think about cutting Social Security an giving tax breaks to billionaire?

", which i essentially what the Republicans believe.

What percentage of the American people agree with that?

Fiv percent, ten percent I don''' know.

The vast majority d not.

That'''s what the Republicans are proposing.

So I think the views that I espouse in most cases, not all, are really where th American people are coming from HEFFNER: Senator Sanders SANDERS: Hey HEFFNER: thanks for being here.

(Shakes hand) SANDERS: Thank you.

HEFFNER: And thanks to you i the audience.

I hope you join us again next timefor a thoughtful excursion into th world of ideas.

Until then keep an open mind.

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