>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, A DEVASTATING LEGACY.

AS AMERICANS RELIVE THE CREATION OF THE ATOMIC BOMB THROUGH THE NEW FILM 'OPPENHEIMER,' A GROUP OF NEW MEXICANS FIGHT FOR RECOGNITION.

>> Cordova: IN PARTS OF NEW MEXICO, THE EXPOSURE TO HUMAN BEINGS COULD HAVE BEEN AS MUCH AS 10,000 TIMES WHAT IS CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE TODAY.

>> Gene: AND NAVIGATING THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE ACTORS AND WRITERS STRIKE AS THE STALEMATE REACHES A BOIL.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

FILM WRITERS AND ACTORS ARE HOLDING STRONG AS THEY DEMAND BETTER PAY AND JOB SECURITY FROM STUDIOS AND OTHER STREAMING GIANTS LIKE NETFLIX AND HULU.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW, I CHAT WITH AN INDUSTRY INSIDER FOR PERSPECTIVE ON THE TIMING OF THE STRIKE, AND THE HISTORIC SOLIDARITY BETWEEN THOSE BEHIND AND IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA.

WE'RE ALSO GETTING REACTION TO THE NOT GUILTY VERDICT IN THE EMBEZZLEMENT TRIAL OF FORMER UNM ATHLETIC DIRECTOR PAUL KREBS.

IN LESS THAN 30 MINUTES, I'LL ASK OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS WHAT THE JURY'S DECISION MEANS WHEN IT COMES TO HOLDING UNIVERSITY OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE FOR MISUSING PUBLIC MONEY.

BUT WE START THIS WEEK WITH THE COMPLICATED LEGACY OF J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER.

LET'S GET TO THE LINE.

>> Gene: WELCOME TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK.

WE'RE HAPPY TO BE JOINED IN STUDIO BY ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN, ONE OF OUR REGULARS.

ACROSS THE TABLE, SHAUN GRISWOLD.

HE'S EDITOR AT SOURCE NEW MEXICO.

AND DEMOCRATIC FORMER STATE SENATOR DEDE FELDMAN IS WITH US, AS WELL.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

NOW, OUR FIRST TOPIC TODAY TAKES US TO THE MOVIES AS AMERICANS PACKED THEATERS LAST WEEK FOR THE PREMIER OF CHRISTOPHER NOLAN'S 'OPPENHEIMER.'

NOW, THE THREE-HOUR MAX BIOPIC FOLLOWS THE LIFE OF THE PHYSICIST AS HE THEORIZES, CREATES, AND QUESTIONS THE MORAL AND FATAL IMPACT OF THE ATOMIC BOMB.

SHAUN, YOU SAW THE FILM.

WHAT WILL VIEWERS LIVING, LET'S SAY OUTSIDE OF THE STATE, LEARN ABOUT NEW MEXICO FROM THIS FILM?

IS THIS SORT OF A SUMMATION OF WHERE WE WERE DURING THE WARTIME EFFORT.

>> Shaun: I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO LEARN A LOT ABOUT NEW MEXICO FROM THIS FILM.

NEW MEXICO IS A SETTING.

IT'S A BACKDROP.

IT'S KIND OF JUST THERE.

NOW, IT DOES CREATE THIS IMPRESSION, YOU KNOW, FROM A FILM PERSPECTIVE IN THE NARRATIVE THAT NOLAN PUT TOGETHER, THAT OPPENHEIMER CARED FOR NEW MEXICO.

THERE'S A MOMENT IN THE FILM WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE WANTS TO DESIGN THE LAB THERE AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE SORT OF SCIENTIFIC ADVANCEMENTS HE JUST UNDERSTOOD THAT COULD POTENTIALLY CREATE THE ATOMIC BOMB THAT HAPPENED.

THERE'S A SCENE IN THE MOVIE WHERE HE'S LIKE THERE'S TWO THINGS I CARE ABOUT IN LIFE, AND I'M PARAPHRASING HERE, I LOVE NEW MEXICO AND I LOVE SCIENCE, AND I WANT TO COMBINE THEM AT SOME POINT.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

>> Shaun: SO IT DOESN'T REALLY QUITE GO INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL AS TO WHAT HIS TRUE PASSION WAS FOR NEW MEXICO, WHY HE FELT NEW MEXICO NEEDED TO BE THE PLACE, OTHER THAN PERHAPS JUST HAVING A HOME HERE AND JUST ENJOYING SOME OF THE MOUNTAIN LANDSCAPE OF NORTHERN NEW MEXICO, WHICH IS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE.

WE ALL KNOW AND HAVE FALLEN IN LOVE WITH IT.

BUT YEAH, NEW MEXICO, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET A LOT OF NEW MEXICO.

IT'S A BACKDROP.

THAT'S ALL IT IS.

>> Gene: WOW.

>> Shaun: IT'S VERY OBVIOUS THAT THAT'S ALSO PART OF A LOT OF -- AS WE'VE SEEN LATER YEARS, EVEN THE GENERAL COMMISSION FROM THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, IN TERMS OF WHAT NEW MEXICO'S RESPONSE IS TO NUCLEAR DEVELOPMENT TECHNOLOGY GOING FORWARD.

WE'RE STILL BARELY CONSIDERED.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINT, THAT LAST POINT THERE.

WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND CIRCLE ON THAT.

DEDE, I WANT YOU TO DO A SHOW AND TELL HERE, ON THE DESK, IN '79 YOU WROTE AN EIGHT-PART SERIES FOR THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL CALLED, "HOW SAFE IS NEW MEXICO'S ATOMIC CITY."

IF YOU COULD HOLD THAT UP FOR THE CAMERA, THAT WOULD BE REALLY COOL.

IT'S REALLY KIND OF AN INTERESTING DEAL.

'79 WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

I MEAN, THAT WAS A FEW FULL MOONS AGO.

WHAT'S CHANGED IN YOUR REPORTING SINCE?

OR HAVE THINGS GOTTEN MARKEDLY BETTER, WORSE, THE SAME?

>> Dede: WELL, THE WAY PEOPLE LOOK AT LOS ALAMOS IS DIFFERENT NOW THAN THE WAY THEY DID, OF COURSE, DURING THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

THERE'S NOT AS MUCH SECRECY.

THERE'S NOT AS MUCH PARANOIA ON THE PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE.

AND WE HAVE COME TO SORT OF IDEALIZE IN NEW MEXICO THE HIGH INCOME, THE GREAT EDUCATION SYSTEM -- >> Gene: MOST Ph.D.s IN AMERICA.

>> Dede: YEAH.

SO NEW MEXICO HAS BECOME VERY DEPENDENT ON THIS IMAGE OF US AS A BRILLIANT COMMUNITY LOCATED IN LOS ALAMOS, SANDIA, AND, YOU KNOW, OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION, FOR EXAMPLE, DARES NOT CHALLENGE THE JOBS AND THE FEDERAL DOLLARS THAT COME INTO NEW MEXICO FOR THIS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, SINCE THE ATOMIC BOMB WAS DETONATED, WHAT IS IT, 70-SOME YEARS AGO, THEY'RE STILL DISPOSING OF WASTE.

THEY'RE STILL MAKING PLUTONIUM TRIGGERS.

THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE GASEOUS WASTES THAT HAVE TRITIUM IN IT.

THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, YOU KNOW, IS REALLY PRETTY SMALL POTATOES COMPARED TO THE LAB AND THE RESOURCES THAT THE LAB HAS.

AND YET, THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO IS TASKED WITH OVERSEEING AND KEEPING THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO SAFE.

I AGREE WITH SHAUN, THE CONTEXT, THE NEW MEXICO CONTEXT, EXCEPT FOR THE PRETTY PICTURES, WAS KIND OF LEFT OUT OF THAT STORY.

AND WE HAVE OUR OWN COLLATERAL DAMAGE HERE.

>> Gene: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

DOWNWINDERS, THAT'S THE BIG ONE SO FAR THAT FOLKS ARE FEELING LIKE GOT LEFT OUT OF THE NARRATIVE THAT DEDE WAS MENTIONING, SOPHIE.

WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE DOWNWINDERS, THOSE WHO LIVED IN THE AREA OF TRINITY TEST SITE EXPOSED TO UNSAFE LEVELS OF RADIATION WITH THE WIND AFTER THE EXPLOSION.

INTERESTING POINT, THE RADIATION EXPOSURE COMPENSATION ACT IS SET TO EXPIRE NEXT YEAR.

THAT'S AN AMAZING THING.

WE HAVEN'T CAUGHT UP WITH WHAT DEDE MENTIONED, THE PROBLEMS, THE LEGACY PROBLEMS.

WHY ARE WE NOT GETTING MORE TRACTION ON THIS AND TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN HERE, BASICALLY?

>> Sophie: I THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD POINT.

YOU KNOW, PARTWAY THROUGH WHAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING, I WANTED TO MENTION, AS THE BUILD-UP FOR THE OPPENHEIMER MOVIE WAS HAPPENING AND WE WERE HEARING MORE AND MORE ABOUT IT, THE NUMBER OF SEARCHES ONLINE FOR, IS OPPENHEIMER REAL, STARTED TO SHOOT UP.

QUESTIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ABOUT, LIKE, DID THIS REALLY HAPPEN?

I'M NOT SURE WHEN YOU SAY WE KNOW ABOUT THE DOWNWINDERS, I'M NOT EVEN REALLY SURE THAT A MAJORITY OF NEW MEXICANS KNOW THE STORY.

IT IS ANCIENT HISTORY FOR SOME PEOPLE, RIGHT.

THE FACT THAT THE ACT IS GOING TO EXPIRE, BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT MANY NEW MEXICANS ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR COMPENSATION OF ANY SORT IS A REAL TRAVESTY.

I DO SEE OUR CONGRESS PEOPLE TRYING TO ADDRESS THE SENATORS.

>> Gene: OPPORTUNITY, POSSIBLY?

YOU KNOW, PUSH THE BALL FORWARD, YEAH.

>> Sophie: I LOVE THAT YOU USE THAT WORD, BECAUSE IN MY MIND, YOU KNOW, CHRISTOPHER NOLAN MADE THE DECISION THAT HE WAS GOING TO BUILD HIS STORY IN A PARTICULAR WAY, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT ON THE PART OF SOME OF THE DOWNWINDERS TO TRY AND GET THAT STORY IN FRONT OF HIM.

IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT WAS PARTICULARLY SUCCESSFUL.

HE HAD HIS STORY IN MIND.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Sophie: SO THIS OPPORTUNITY NOW, THE FACT THAT THIS FILM IS HUGE THIS SUMMER, AND I'M SURE IT WILL BE ALL OVER THE OSCARS.

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION.

I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH THE GROUP THAT PUT TOGETHER TRAILERS, ESSENTIALLY, TO GO IN FRONT OF CERTAIN SCREENINGS HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

THE CONVERSATION THAT'S HAPPENING.

THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE NOT JUST NEW MEXICANS, BUT THE COUNTRY, ABOUT THE DOWNWINDERS SITUATION.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Sophie: THE PHYSICAL AND ECONOMIC IMPACTS OF BEING JUST EVEN OUTSIDE THE BLAST ZONE AT THE TIME THEY THOUGHT WAS DANGEROUS, AND NOW WE KNOW THERE'S DANGER ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE FOR MANY MORE PEOPLE.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

INTERESTING.

SOPHIE MENTIONED, SHAUN, THE 15-SECOND AD THE UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS HAVE IN FRONT OF THE FILM.

I DON'T KNOW, WERE YOU ON TIME FOR THE FILM?

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW THAT OR NOT.

I SHOULDN'T ASK YOU THAT.

YOU MIGHT HAVE WALKED IN WHEN THE FILM WAS A MINUTE LONG.

THAT'S THE WAY I DO IT.

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

DID YOU HAPPEN TO CATCH THAT AD WHEN YOU WENT TO GO SEE IT?

>> Shaun: OKAY, SO I DID SEE THE MOVIE AT A THEATER HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

I GOT THERE AS THE PREVIEWS HAD ALREADY STARTED.

SO THERE WERE ABOUT THREE OR FOUR PREVIEWS BEFORE THE FILM STARTED.

I DID NOT SEE THAT AD.

I WAS AWARE THAT IT HAPPENED, YEAH, I WASN'T SURE IF IT AIRED BEFORE OR IF IT EVEN AIRED AS PART OF THIS THEATER'S THING.

WE DID HAVE A REPORTER NAMED KELSEY ATHERTON, THEY'RE AN ALBUQUERQUE-BASED JOURNALIST, ONE OF THE PROMINENT DEFENSE JOURNALISTS AS WELL AS NUCLEAR DEFENSE SYSTEMS JOURNALISTS IN THE COUNTRY.

SO HE REVIEWED THE FILM AT A PANEL THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT MESSAGE.

SOME OF THEM WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE MESSAGE THAT ALSO INCLUDED DOWNWINDERS.

PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED THE ATOMIC BLAST, AND AFTER THEY ALL WATCHED THE FILM THERE WAS AN OVERALL DISCUSSION THAT BROUGHT UP A LOT OF WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, ABOUT HOW NEW MEXICO IS NOT PRESENT IN THE FILM.

WHAT WE HEARD, NOT ONLY JUST THE ABSENCE OF DOWNWINDERS, THERE'S PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW ADULTS WHO HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS WHO SAW THE ATOMIC BLAST AT TRINITY SITE WHO WEREN'T ALERTED, WHO THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS OVER AND ENDING.

WE HAVE QUOTES FROM PEOPLE SAYING MY GRANDPARENTS GOT ON THEIR HANDS AND KNEES AND STARTED PRAYING BECAUSE THEY WATCHED THE SOMEWHAT PINNACLE MOMENT OF THIS CHRISTOPHER NOLAN MOVIE, WHICH IS THE TRINITY BLAST SITE, AND THERE'S NO MENTION OF THAT.

THERE'S A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW OPPENHEIMER AND THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BUILT LOS ALAMOS.

BUILT A TOWN, AND THERE'S NO MENTION OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LOCAL, HISPANICS AND NATIVE PEOPLE, WHO WERE THE PEOPLE WHO BUILT THE ROADS, BUILT THE HOUSES, DID THE CHILDCARE, DID ALL THE MANUAL LABOR THAT MADE LOS ALAMOS WHAT IT IS NOW.

THERE'S NO MENTION OF THAT.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN BACKGROUND ACTORS REALLY, ENTIRELY, IN ALL OF IT.

SO IT LEADS TO THAT IDEA THAT NEW MEXICO IS JUST A SETTING.

IT'S AN INVISIBLE PLACE.

ON TOP OF THAT, YOU DON'T EVEN SEE OR EVEN HEAR MUCH OF THE CONVERSATION IN THE FILM ABOUT HOW URANIUM WAS EVEN EXTRACTED.

THERE'S NO CONVERSATION ABOUT NEW MEXICO EXTRACTION HERE.

THERE'S ONE MENTION ABOUT SOMETHING IN OAK FLATS, WHICH I BELIEVE IS IN TENNESSEE, AND IT'S ONE QUICK LINE.

THAT'S BASICALLY IT.

WHEREAS, THE RACE TO GET ENOUGH OF THE, YOU KNOW, RAW MINERAL TO RAW MATERIAL TO BUILD THIS BOMB IS KIND OF JUST ANOTHER PROP ITSELF WITHOUT ACTUALLY DISCUSSING HOW IT HAPPENED.

>> Gene: THAT'S UNFORTUNATE, YEAH.

>> Shaun: AND REAL QUICKLY, TO THE POINT OF COMPENSATION FOR DOWNWINDERS, DANIELLE PROKOP IS A REPORTER WITH THE SOURCE NEW MEXICO WHO ALSO HAS BEEN FOLLOWING A LOT OF NUCLEAR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AND NUCLEAR WASTE STORAGE THAT WE HAVE IN NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS.

WE'VE EVOLVED FROM THE MANHATTAN PROJECT TO BECOMING THE WORLD'S DUMPING GROUND FOR NUCLEAR WASTE IN NEW MEXICO, AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES IN THE SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO ARE ACTUALLY INVITING IT.

THEY WANT IT.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

SPEAKING WITH DANIELLE AHEAD OF THIS CONVERSATION AND OUR TAPING, WE ACTUALLY GOT SOME INSIGHT INTO WHAT SENATOR BEN RAY LUJAN IS TRYING TO DO TO CONTINUE TO ADVANCE THE RECA COMPENSATION BILL.

WE'RE BEING TOLD THAT CURRENTLY HE'S GOING TO BE TRYING TO MOVE THAT INTO THE DEFENSE BUDGET ACT.

AND THEN IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN, THAT'S GOING TO BE THEIR WAY TO GET THAT IN THERE TO PROVIDE SOME ADDITIONAL FUNDING.

WE'RE NOT SURE EXACTLY ON DETAILS AS TO HOW LONG THAT FUNDING WILL BE.

BUT THEN, OF COURSE, THAT'S ALL THEN GOING TO BECOME UNDER THE REVIEW OF CONGRESS AS IT NEGOTIATES A POTENTIAL GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.

SO WHILE THIS IS ONE EFFORT TO SLIP IT IN, AND THAT MAY NOT EVEN BE THE BEST TERM.

THIS IS ONE EFFORT TO KIND OF GET THIS APPROPRIATION AVAILABLE, SO PEOPLE CAN CONTINUE TO GET MONEY, IT'S STILL GOING TO HAVE LAYERS OF POLITICS THAT COULD POTENTIALLY STOP IT.

>> Sophie: HE KNOWS THAT BILL IS GOING TO GET VOTED ON, SO IF HE'S IN, RIGHT, IF IT'S IN, GREAT.

IF IT'S NOT, I THINK YOU KNOW, NOT TO -- I'M IN NO WAY DISAGREEING WITH YOU.

I THINK IT COULD ALSO BE LIKE A CONCESSION PIECE, IF THERE'S NOT ENOUGH SUPPORT WITHIN CONGRESS FOR IT.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Shaun: REPUBLICANS HAVE ALREADY APPROVED A BUDGET ON THE DEFENSE BUDGET WHICH CONTROLS THE HOUSE, SO THE SENATE WOULD JUST SEND IT BACK FOR RECONSIDERATION.

HE FEELS THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

DEDE, LET'S PICK UP ON WHERE SHAUN WAS AT HERE, THIS LEGACY WE HAVE HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

THE LIST, RADIATION, NUCLEAR ENERGY, TOXIC WASTE, ONGOING LAWS YOU REPORTED ON IN THE '70S.

DOES A MAINSTREAM MOVIE LIKE 'OPPENHEIMER' JUST REINFORCE THIS IDEA THAT NEW MEXICO IS OPEN FOR ANY AND ALL BUSINESS RELATED TO NUCLEAR DESTRUCTION AND WASTE?

THIS IS THE OVERALL TAKEAWAY IF YOU'RE LIVING IN MAINE AND MINNESOTA AND IOWA, AND PLACES?

>> Dede: IT COULD BE.

I THINK IT COULD BE.

AND THE IRONY IS EVEN COMPOUNDED FOR ME BY THE FACT THAT THE NUCLEAR BOMB THAT WAS DETONATED, IT'S LIKE A FIRECRACKER COMPARED TO WHAT THEY'RE BUILDING NOW, AND WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT AS TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS NOW.

AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE '80S AND THE '70S, THERE WAS A PRETTY STRONG ANTI-NUCLEAR MOVEMENT NATIONWIDE.

REMEMBER THE 'SILKWOOD' FILM AT THAT TIME?

AND NEW MEXICO WAS NOT A PART OF THAT ANTI-NUCLEAR MOVEMENT, EXCEPT FOR A FEW OF US.

AND WE WENT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

AND THE RESULT IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU SAW WITH URANIUM MINING AND THE DAMAGE THAT THAT CAUSED.

IT WAS ONLY AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN THAT REALLY STOPPED OUR PARTICIPATION IN THE FRONT-END OF THE NUCLEAR CYCLE.

WE STILL HAVE THE REAR-END OF THE NUCLEAR CYCLE.

THE DISPOSAL, WHICH MANY NEW MEXICANS FEEL LIKE WE SORT OF STARTED THIS, SO WE OWE IT TO THE NATION TO DISPOSE OF THAT.

>> Gene: I'VE HEARD THAT.

>> Dede: AT LEAST THE DEFENSE WASTE.

SO IT'S BEEN A DEVIL'S BARGAIN ALL THE WAY ALONG.

I THINK THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO ARE COMING UP ON THE SHORT END.

>> Gene: YUP.

THANKS TO OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

WE'LL MEET BACK HERE AT THE TABLE IN ABOUT 15 TO TALK THROUGH THE NOT GUILTY VERDICT IN THE EMBEZZLEMENT TRIAL AGAINST A FORMER UNM ATHLETIC DIRECTOR.

BUT FIRST, AN INTERVIEW WITH A WOMAN WHOSE LIVED THROUGH THE HORRORS LEFT BEHIND AFTER THE TRINITY TEST.

TINA CORDOVA IS THE FOUNDER OF THE TULAROSA BASIN DOWNWINDERS CONSORTIUM.

SHE'S BEEN WORKING FOR YEARS TO EARN RECOGNITION, AS YOU HEARD AT THE TABLE HERE, AND COMPENSATION FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT RUSSEL CONTRERAS SAT DOWN WITH MS. CORDOVA THIS WEEK TO ASK ABOUT BEING OVERLOOKED YET AGAIN.

>> Russell: TINA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

>> Cordova: ABSOLUTELY, RUSSELL.

IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Russell: THE NEW MOVIE 'OPPENHEIMER' WAS JUST RELEASED.

YOU SAW THE FILM.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> Cordova: WELL, YOU KNOW, MY FIRST REACTION IS, I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE FOCUSED A LITTLE MORE ON THE PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO WHO WERE LITERALLY PARTICIPANTS IN THE TEST AT TRINITY.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST THAT.

I MEAN, LET'S BE REAL HERE.

WITHOUT THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO, WE WOULD HAVE HAD NO MANHATTAN PROJECT AND NO TRINITY TEST, BECAUSE AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WAS THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO WHO, NUMBER ONE, MINED THE URANIUM.

NO FISSION WITHOUT URANIUM, RIGHT?

SO WE NEVER REALLY SPENT ENOUGH TIME REFLECTING ON THE FACT THAT NEW MEXICO, THROUGH THE NAVAJO NATION, LAGUNA, AND ACOMA PUEBLO, WE HAVE OVER A THOUSAND ABANDONED URANIUM MINE AND MILL SITES.

THEY EXACTED 32 MILLION TONS OF URANIUM IN THAT PROCESS.

THEY USED PEOPLE'S POVERTY AGAINST THEM AND THE PROMISE OF A BETTER LIFE, AND THEY SENT THEM INTO THOSE MINES WITHOUT ADEQUATE SAFETY GEAR, AND THEY'VE BEEN DYING EVER SINCE.

SO THERE'S THAT.

AND THEN THERE'S THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY BUSSED THE HISPANIC AND NATIVE WOMEN UP TO LOS ALAMOS, AND THEY'RE THE ONES THAT COOKED EVERY MEAL, CLEANED THE HOUSES, CHANGED EVERY DIAPER.

AND THEIR HUSBANDS WERE BUSSED UP THERE, AS WELL.

THEY'RE THE ONES THAT BUILT THE ROADS AND THE BRIDGES AND THE FACILITIES AND SERVED AS JANITORS CLEANING THE RADIOACTIVE WASTE OFF OF THE INSTRUMENTATION.

SOME OF THESE MEN LOST THEIR LIVES IN AN EXPLOSIVE ACCIDENT.

SO WE HAVE ALL THAT.

AND THEY'LL NEVER, YOU KNOW, REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT PEOPLE LIVED AS CLOSE AS 12 MILES TO THE TRINITY TEST.

SO FOR ME, FILMING OF THE 'OPPENHEIMER' MOVIE IN NEW MEXICO, COMING HERE AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR TAX INCENTIVES, OVER-GLORIFYING THE SCIENCE AND THE SCIENTISTS AND NOT REFLECTING ON THE PART THAT THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO PLAYED IN THIS PROJECT IS A HUGE ERROR ON THEIR PART AND A HUGE OMISSION OF THE ENTIRE HISTORY.

AND IT'S BASICALLY JUST A PERPETUATION OF THE LIE THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN TOLD.

SO I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THAT REGARD.

>> Russell: TAKE ME BACK, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, TO THE TRINITY TEST.

YOUR FAMILY LIVED NEAR WHERE THE BOMB WAS DETONATED AND WHERE THIS TEST TOOK PLACE.

WHAT WERE THE EFFECTS LONG-TERM OF THAT TEST ON YOUR FAMILY AND YOURSELF?

>> Cordova: WELL, TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION, LET ME ALSO REMIND EVERYBODY THAT IF YOU DRAW A RADIUS AROUND TRINITY AT 50 MILES -- WE HAPPEN TO KNOW BECAUSE WE'VE DONE THE RESEARCH -- THAT THERE WERE 15,000 CHILDREN, WOMEN AND MEN LIVING ADJACENT TO THE TRINITY TEST SITE.

THAT'S FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE LIVING FAR TOO CLOSE TO A NUCLEAR TEST SITE.

SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN?

WELL, WE WERE HIGHLY OVEREXPOSED TO RADIATION, AND SOME NEW MAPPING WAS RELEASED LAST FRIDAY.

THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT THIS.

A YOUNG SCIENTIST FROM PRINCETON RECREATED THE TEST AND THE FAULT-OUT DEPOSITION BASED ON TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY, AND WHAT WE KNOW NOW IS THAT IN THOSE FIRST TEN DAYS AFTER TRINITY, THERE WAS A LARGE DEPOSITION OF RADIATION ALL OVER NEW MEXICO.

SOME AREAS RECEIVED REALLY HIGH LEVELS.

THAT ACTUALLY TRANSLATES INTO NEGATIVE HEALTH EFFECTS.

WE ALL KNOW THAT RADIATION EXPOSURE IS VERY DANGEROUS TO HUMAN HEALTH.

AND SO IN MY FAMILY, I'M THE FOURTH GENERATION TO HAVE CANCER SINCE TRINITY.

I WASN'T ALIVE AT THE TIME OF TRINITY.

MY EXPOSURE MAY NOT HAVE COME FROM TRINITY, IT MAY HAVE BEEN FROM THE NEVADA TEST SITE, WHICH WE KNOW WE WERE ALSO DOWNWIND OF.

BUT REGARDLESS, THIS HAS BECOME A MULTI-GENERATIONAL PROBLEM.

I'M THE FOURTH GENERATION IN MY FAMILY TO HAVE CANCER SINCE 1945.

I HAD TWO GREAT-GRANDFATHERS ALIVE AT THE TIME WHO DIED IN 1955 FROM WHAT WAS DESCRIBED AS STOMACH CANCER.

WE'LL NEVER FULLY KNOW BECAUSE THERE WAS NO TREATMENT.

THEY GAVE THEM MORPHINE AND SENT THEM HOME TO DIE.

BOTH MY GRANDMOTHERS HAD CANCER.

MY DAD DIED FROM CANCER AFTER HAVING TWO VERY DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT ORAL CANCERS THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE RISK FACTORS FOR.

HE DIDN'T DRINK EXCESSIVELY, DIDN'T SMOKE, DIDN'T USE CHEWING TOBACCO, HAD NO VIRUSES.

HE DEVELOPED TWO PRIMARY ORAL CANCERS.

I HAVE THYROID CANCER.

THE FIRST QUESTION THEY ASKED ME WAS, WHEN WERE YOU EXPOSED TO RADIATION?

THE VERY SAD THING IS, IN MY FAMILY NOW WE KNOW WHO THE FIFTH GENERATION IS.

I HAVE A 23-YEAR-OLD NIECE STUDYING ART AT COLLEGE IN CALIFORNIA WHO HAS HAD HER LIFE UPENDED BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH THYROID CANCER, AS WELL.

AND I WISH I COULD SAY THAT THIS IS UNIQUE TO MY FAMILY, IT'S NOT.

>> Russell: HAS THERE BEEN ANY GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT ABOUT THIS?

>> Cordova: THERE'S NEVER BEEN ANY GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER COME BACK TO BASICALLY TAKE A FULL VIEW LOOK AT THIS, EITHER.

LONG AGO, WE SHOULD HAVE HAD AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDY TAKING PLACE HERE WHERE THEY LITERALLY WENT INTO THESE VILLAGES AND ACCOUNTED FOR EVERYBODY THAT WAS THERE, AND ALSO TRACKED WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

BUT NONE OF THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED HERE.

WE'VE NEVER HAD ANY STUDY THAT ACTUALLY ADDRESSES THE HEALTH EFFECTS.

NOW, THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES, LIKE A CDC STUDY THAT SAID, AS THE PART IN THE CDC STUDY, LAHDRA, LOS ALAMOS HISTORICAL DOCUMENT RETRIEVAL AND ASSESSMENT, LITERALLY THE CHAPTER 10 THAT'S DEVOTED TO TRINITY SAYS THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT IN PARTS OF NEW MEXICO, THE EXPOSURE TO HUMAN BEINGS COULD HAVE BEEN AS MUCH AS TEN THOUSAND TIMES WHAT IS CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE TODAY.

SO IT'S NO WONDER WE HAVE FOUR AND FIVE GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE WITH CANCER IN NEW MEXICO.

WE DOCUMENT FAMILIES LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME.

IT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

>> Russell: IN THE MOVIE, THE LEAD UP TO THAT TRINITY TEST IS A MAJOR POINT OF THAT MOVIE.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THIS BOMB WAS -- YOU KNOW, THEY FILM IT, GREAT CAMERA ANGLE, A LOT OF SUSPENSE.

BUT WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN IT WENT OFF, WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THIS, AND THEN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH AND HOW IT WAS PORTRAYED?

>> Cordova: WELL, I HAD A LOT OF ANXIETY IN ADVANCE OF WATCHING THE MOVIE, AND I KNEW THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

I ALSO KNEW THAT PROBABLY BEING PRESENT IN THIS MOVIE WOULD BRING ME AS CLOSE TO THE ACTUAL EVENTS AS I'D EVER BE AFTER HEARING HUNDREDS OF STORIES FROM PEOPLE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY EMOTIONAL.

THE WHOLE THING WAS VERY EMOTIONAL FOR ME.

I ONLY THOUGHT ABOUT THE STORIES THAT PEOPLE TOLD ME, THE TIMES THAT PEOPLE TOLD ME, WE THOUGHT IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER GATHERED US UP IN BED AND WE STARTED PRAYING THE ROSARY IN SPANISH.

MY MOTHER PULLED THE CAR OVER ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND SHE MADE US KNEEL ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND WE STARTED PRAYING THE ROSARY.

THAT THEME RUNS THROUGH ALL THESE HISTORIES, THAT THEY THOUGHT IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD.

AND YOU CAN IMAGINE, IT WAS SO MASSIVE, SO ENORMOUS, THAT OF COURSE PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD.

AND I HAVE A FRIEND, PAUL PINO, WHO DOES THIS WORK FOR ME, AND HE ALWAYS SAYS, CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WHEN THEY THOUGHT THE SUN WAS RISING IN THE WEST INSTEAD OF THE EAST?

THEY WOULD THINK IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD.

FOR ME, IT WAS VERY EMOTIONAL TO WATCH.

AND I WAS JUST, AS I SAID ALREADY, SO DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY HAD NO REFLECTION ON THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED ADJACENT TO THE TRINITY SITE, THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, 20 AND 30 AND 40 MILES AWAY.

LIKE MY COMMUNITY, TULAROSA.

>> Russell: AS THE MOVIE WENT ON AND THE BIOPIC SHOWED BASICALLY THE CHALLENGES OPPENHEIMER WOULD FACE AFTERWARDS, REALIZING WHAT HE HAD UNLEASHED, DID YOU FEEL ANY SYMPATHY FOR THE CHARACTER OF OPPENHEIMER WHEN HE WAS EXPRESSING REGRET ABOUT WHAT THIS BOMB COULD DO.

NOT WHAT IT HAS DONE, BUT WHAT IT COULD DO?

>> Cordova: YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAD REGRETS, BUT FOR ME, THERE WAS THAT MOMENT IN THE FILM WHERE THEY SHOW HIS WIFE HANGING OUT THE BED SHEETS, AND SHE APPEARS TO BE IN LOS ALAMOS.

THEY PRESENT IT AS THOUGH SHE'S IN LOS ALAMOS.

AND ALL I COULD THINK OF WAS, THE TRUTH IS, SHE WASN'T IN LOS ALAMOS.

HE SENT HIS FAMILY AWAY TO SAFETY WHILE HE ALLOWED US TO ALL REMAIN IN DANGER HERE.

AND SO IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO GIVE HIM A PASS CARD, OR TO FEEL ANY KIND OF EMPATHY TOWARDS HIM.

AND I WILL SAY, HE HAD EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO BRING TO THE ATTENTION OF PEOPLE THE IDEA THAT MAYBE SOMEBODY HERE WAS DAMAGED OR HARMED, AND I'VE NEVER READ ANYPLACE IN THE HISTORY BOOKS WHERE ACTUALLY HE EVER REFLECTED ON THAT.

TOOK A MOMENT TO BRING THAT TO ANYONE'S ATTENTION.

AND THEY FULL WELL KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT THAT BOMB WAS GOING TO CREATE MASSIVE FALLOUT.

I DON'T THINK THEY REALIZED HOW ENORMOUS IT WOULD BE, BUT THEY KNEW THAT FALLOUT WAS GOING TO BE A BYPRODUCT OF THE TEST, AND THEY MOVED AHEAD WITH IT ANYWAY.

AND SO IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HAVE EMPATHY TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO JUST DIDN'T SEE US.

THEY DIDN'T SEE US THEN, AND OBVIOUSLY THE FILMMAKERS DON'T SEE US TODAY.

>> Russell: THE LAST TIME YOU WERE ON THE SHOW, SINCE THEN, HENRY HERRERA, WHO IS BELIEVED TO BE THE LAST KNOWN WITNESS TO THE TRINITY TEST, HE SAW IT WHEN HE WAS 11, HAS DIED.

HE DIED AT 87 AFTER SUFFERING YEARS OF MOUTH CANCER AND A RECONSTRUCTED JAW.

WHAT DID HE TEACH YOU WHEN YOU GOT INVOLVED IN THIS MOVEMENT ABOUT WHAT WAS AT STAKE AND HOW PEOPLE WERE AFFECTED?

>> Cordova: HENRY IS A TRUE HERO IN THE EYES OF A LOT OF US.

I VIEW HENRY THAT WAY, BECAUSE HE CONSISTENTLY TOLD HIS TRUTH YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, AS SICK AS HE WAS FOR ALL THOSE YEARS.

AND EVEN AT TIMES WHEN PEOPLE TRIED TO DISCOUNT HIS TRUTH, HE TOLD HIS TRUTH WITH PURE DEDICATION TO THAT TRUTH.

AND SO IT'S BEEN VERY HARD FOR OUR COMMUNITY OF TULAROSA TO SUFFER THROUGH THE LOSS OF HENRY.

BUT SO MANY PEOPLE -- I MEAN, WE LIGHT LUMINARIAS IN JULY IN MEMORY OF PEOPLE WE'VE LOST, AND WE HAVE WELL OVER 800 NAMES, AND IT'S JUST THROUGH A VOLUNTARY PROCESS, AND HENRY IS ONE OF THOSE NOW.

AND I THINK THE ONE THING I ALWAYS REMEMBER ABOUT HENRY, WHEN I THINK ABOUT HIM, OTHER THAN HIS AMAZING ACCOUNT OF THAT DAY, IS THAT HE AND HIS WIFE MADE A LIST FOR ME ONE TIME OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY KNEW IN TULAROSA WHO HAD DIED FROM CANCER, AND THE LIST WAS CLOSE TO 500 NAMES, AND HENRY TOLD ME, 'I PLAYED THE GUITAR AT ALMOST EVERY ONE OF THOSE FUNERALS.'

AND I THOUGHT, IMAGINE, EVEN THROUGH HIS OWN SUFFERING AND THROUGH HIS OWN HEALTH CHALLENGES, HE SHOWED UP FOR HIS COMMUNITY THAT WAY.

AND HE'S A HERO.

YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS SAY, A LOT OF GREAT MEN LIVED BESIDES ROBERT OPPENHEIMER, AND ROBERT OPPENHEIMER WAS AN INCREDIBLY FLAWED MAN, AND HENRY TOLD ME ONCE, 'TINA, WE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH, BUT WE HAD EVERYTHING WE NEEDED.

WE HAD RUNNING WATER.

WE HAD FERTILE SOIL.

AND WE TOOK CARE OF EACH OTHER.'

AND HE SAID, 'IT WAS ALL DESTROYED AFTER THAT BOMB.'

AND I THINK ABOUT HENRY AND HOW HE IS ABSOLUTELY 180-DEGREE DIFFERENCE FROM ROBERT OPPENHEIMER, BUT HENRY WAS STILL A GREAT MAN, AND YOU'LL NEVER SEE A MOVIE ABOUT HIS LIFE.

AND THAT, TO ME, IS VERY DISAPPOINTING.

WE HAVE NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE RECOGNITION THAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

>> Ellis: I THINK THIS HIT AT A MOMENT WHEN LABOR IN THIS COUNTRY, WHETHER YOU'RE WORKING AS A MOTION PICTURE AND TELEVISION EMPLOYEE, YOU'RE WORKING IN HOTELS, YOU'RE WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, YOU'RE A UPS DRIVER -- THAT'S A STRIKE THAT COULD PARALYZE THE COUNTRY IF THEY WALK OUT NEXT MONTH .

EVERYBODY'S FEELING ABUSED.

EVERYBODY'S FEELING THAT THEY'VE BECOME MERELY GIG WORKERS.

>> Gene: WELCOME BACK TO OUR PANELISTS.

WE TURN NOW TO THE NOT-GUILTY VERDICT IN THE EMBEZZLEMENT CASE AGAINST FORMER UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO ATHLETIC DIRECTOR PAUL KREBS.

A JURY ACQUITTED MR. KREBS LAST WEEK, BUT THIS ORDEAL BEGAN IN 2017 WHEN HE STEPPED DOWN AS A.D.

FOLLOWING QUESTIONS ABOUT USING PUBLIC MONEY FOR A LAVISH GOLF TRIP TO SCOTLAND, YOU MIGHT REMEMBER.

TWO YEARS LATER, MR. KREBS WAS CHARGED.

NOW FAST-FORWARD TO THIS MONTH'S TRIAL WHERE A JURY DELIBERATED FOR LESS THAN FIVE HOURS, SHAUN, AND DECIDED THAT KREBS DID NOT BREAK THE LAW.

I'M SORRY, LET ME START WITH SOPHIE ON THIS ONE.

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

FROM THE STREET -- I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, I DIDN'T TAKE THE BAR YESTERDAY.

BUT IT SEEMED LIKE THERE WERE FLAWS IN THIS CASE RIGHT FROM THE START.

AND I'M DOING TV LAWYER TALK HERE, BUT AS A REAL LAWYER, WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF IT GOING IN?

>> Sophie: IF FEELS LIKE IT WAS A CHALLENGING CASE, AND PART OF WHAT MADE IT CHALLENGING, I THINK, WAS THAT IT WAS FIRST BROUGHT UNDER HECTOR BALDARES, RIGHT, AND THEN CONTINUED THROUGH.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT -- WE KNOW THAT SOME OF THE CHARGES WERE DISMISSED, THERE WAS AN ANALYSIS, ARE THERE ANY, UNDER THE CURRENT AG, ARE THERE ANY CHARGES THAT WE CAN GO FORWARD WITH, AND I THINK THAT PERHAPS THE OPTIMISM AROUND THOSE CHARGES ENDS UP BEING MISGUIDED.

BUT, YOU KNOW, HERE'S THE THING.

YOU PUT THE CASE BEFORE WHAT WE CALL THE FINDER OF FACT, IN THIS CASE THE JURY, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A LOCK FOR EITHER SIDE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T NECESSARILY -- I DON'T SECOND-GUESS THE AG'S DECISION TO MOVE FORWARD, BUT I ALSO CAN SEE HOW THIS WAS A DIFFICULT CASE AND WHY IT MIGHT GO IN THIS DIRECTION.

>> Gene: GOOD POINTS.

SHAUN, YOU WERE IN THE COURTROOM, AS THEY SAY.

APPRECIATE YOUR REPORTING OUT THERE WHEN THE VERDICT WAS ANNOUNCED.

GIVE US A SENSE OF THE ROOM.

WAS IT SURPRISE THAT HE GOT OFF SO QUICKLY, FIVE HOURS EASILY?

WHAT WAS THE SENSE OF THE FEEDBACK ONCE IT WAS ANNOUNCED?

>> Shaun: THE FEEDBACK WAS INCREDIBLE RELIEF.

PAUL KREBS WAS IMMEDIATELY -- HE JUST KIND OF PUT HIS HEAD UP FOR ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TIMES IN THE TRIAL.

HE KIND OF SAT THERE MOSTLY SOLEMN THROUGHOUT THE TIME.

IT WAS A FIVE DAY TRIAL, AND EVERY DAY HE HAD A COUPLE DOZEN SUPPORTERS, PEOPLE THAT HAVE WORKED WITH HIM, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN HIS PAST, PEOPLE WHO CLEARLY HAD ALSO JUST COME FROM THE GOLF COURSE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM THE COUNTRY CLUB THAT WERE THERE, WHICH IS SOMEWHAT OF A RARE INSTANCE TO SEE IN A TRIAL WHEN YOU SEE A CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC THAT'S JUST NOT ALWAYS AT THESE CASES, OR AT LEAST SOMETIMES WILL BE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

KREBS ALSO HAD HIS WIFE AND HIS BROTHERS THERE THE ENTIRE TIME, SITTING DIRECTLY BEHIND HIM.

SO HE HAD INCREDIBLE SUPPORT.

AND ONCE IT CAME OUT, ONCE THE VERDICT WAS READ, IMMEDIATE RELIEF.

BUT ALSO, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT FROM MY VIEW, BEFORE THE JURY'S VERDICT, KIND OF HAD A 50/50 TYPE OF IDEA AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND GUILTY OR NOT.

AND THAT MOSTLY COMES FROM THE IDEA OF WHETHER OR NOT THE JURY WAS GOING TO DETERMINE, IF THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE A REACH FROM THE DEFINITION OF EMBEZZLEMENT, THAT KREBS MOVED MONEY AROUND FROM VARIOUS UNIVERSITY FUNDS THAT HIS LAWYERS ARGUED HE HAD DISCRETION TO DO, WHETHER HE ACTUALLY USED THAT AS A WAY TO GIVE PERSONAL GAIN.

AND WHILE THE PROSECUTORS ARGUED THAT, WELL, YES, HE WAS DOING THIS BECAUSE HE NEEDED TO PROTECT HIS JOB, HE NEEDED TO PROTECT THE DONOR ELEMENT FOR UNIVERSITY ATHLETICS, THAT WAS ALL PART OF WHY HE DID THIS TRIP AND WHY HE DECIDED TO MOVE MONEY, IT WAS ALSO KIND OF UNCLEAR IN THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS IF THAT WAS ACTUALLY BREAKING THE LAW, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HIS DEFENSE MADE VERY, VERY PROMINENT, EVEN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IN THEIR OPENING ARGUMENT.

HE BROKE POLICY, YES, ADMITTEDLY.

EVEN KREBS MENTIONED THAT MULTIPLE TIMES, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE DONE THINGS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.

BUT HE DIDN'T BREAK THE LAW, AND THAT WAS THEIR ARGUMENT AND THAT'S WHAT THE JURY DETERMINED.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINTS.

DEDE, LAST WEEK ON THE SHOW, WE INTERVIEWED JOURNALIST DANIEL LIBIT.

YOU GUYS MIGHT KNOW, HE'S BEEN DOING A LOT OF COVERAGE ON THE CULTURE OF SECRECY AT UNM.

AND THIS IS PART OF THE SITUATION HERE THAT I THINK SHAUN IS DESCRIBING.

COULD THIS POSSIBLY HAVE OPENED A DOOR TO LOOK AT HOW UNIVERSITY POLITICS WORK?

NOT POLITICS, BUT POLICY.

YOU KNOW, MOVING MONEY AROUND.

THIS IS NO SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY.

THIS WAS A LOT OF MONEY THAT THIS MAN WAS ABLE TO MOVE AROUND AT HIS OWN DISCRETION, NOBODY ELSE LOOKING OVER HIS SHOULDER.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TENABLE TO ME FOR SOMEONE RUNNING AN ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT.

CHANGES COMING?

>> Dede: WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER CHANGE IS COMING OR NOT, BECAUSE TO MOST PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY EXPECTED THAT ADMINISTRATORS TAKE MONEY FROM ONE POT AND PUT IT INTO ANOTHER POT, AND THAT'S NOT EMBEZZLEMENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE JURY DECIDED.

IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT HERE BECAUSE IT'S PUBLIC MONEY IN THIS POT, AND THEN AFTERWARDS, WHAT WE BECAME AWARE OF WAS THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO COVER UP WHAT HAD HAPPENED, AND THEN TO ACTUALLY MAKE AMENDS BY, YOU KNOW, ADDING TO THE POT FROM KREBS' PERSONAL FUNDS, ALTHOUGH THAT WAS OBSCURED, AS WELL.

SO IT WAS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF A COMEDY OF ERRORS ON HIS PART, BUT IT WAS NOT AN ILLEGAL COMEDY OF ERRORS.

SO YES, I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THERE OUGHT TO BE SOME MORE SAFEGUARDS WITH THE MONEY THAT IS APPROPRIATED FROM THE LEGISLATURE TO THE UNIVERSITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, HOW THAT IS TO BE DONE, I'M NOT CLEAR.

BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT THE UNIVERSITY ATHLETICS DEPARTMENT HAS MANY FANS AND BOOSTERS WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE WHO LOVE TO APPROPRIATE CAPITAL OUTLAY FUNDS TO THE UNIVERSITY FOR A NEW STADIUM, OR FOR NEW EQUIPMENT, OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE OVERSIGHT ON THAT, I THINK.

THANK GOODNESS THAT LARRY BARKER IS ALWAYS THERE TO QUESTION WHETHER THIS VIOLATES THE ANTI-DONATION CLAUSE.

>> Sophie: HOW OFTEN DO PEOPLE SAY, THANK GOODNESS THAT LARRY BARKER IS THERE?

>> Dede: WELL, I THINK IT'S A PUBLIC SERVICE, BECAUSE WE NEED THAT ACCOUNTABILITY.

OTHERWISE, THESE KIND OF THINGS ARE GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING.

>> Gene: BUT YOU MENTIONED, DEDE, IT'S PUBLIC MONEY.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS THE RIGHT TO STEP IN HERE AND SAY, GUYS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT, WE CAN DO IT.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

WE CAN MAKE SOME REQUIREMENTS HERE ABOUT HOW THE MONEY WORKS.

CAN'T THEY?

>> Dede: YEAH, IT'S A TRICKY BUSINESS.

I MEAN, HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT THE LEGISLATURE TELLING EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT, EVERY UNIVERSITY, EXACTLY WHAT PROPORTION OF THEIR BUDGET SHOULD GO TO ANTHROPOLOGY, WHAT PROPORTION SHOULD GO TO THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT?

I MEAN, THE LEGISLATURE COULD COME IN AND PUT A CAP ON HOW MUCH OF STATE FUNDS GO TO THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT IN ANY GIVEN UNIVERSITY.

BUT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S A GOOD IDEA OR NOT.

>> Sophie: AND ATHLETICS ARE POPULAR IN THIS STATE.

>> Gene: I'M INTERESTED IN THE BIG "E" - EMBEZZLEMENT HERE.

DEDE MAKES AN INTERESTING POINT.

MY UNDERSTANDING AS A LAYPERSON IS EMBEZZLEMENT IS WHEN YOU PUT MONEY IN YOUR OWN POCKET.

YOU'RE DOING IT FOR YOU.

YOU'RE STEALING IT FOR YOU.

WAS THERE PERHAPS SOME CONFUSION HERE ON WHAT CONSTITUTES EMBEZZLEMENT WITH THIS JURY?

>> Sophie: IT FEELS LIKE THE ARGUMENT THAT WAS MADE IN FRONT OF JURY WAS A BIT ATTENUATED.

YOU KNOW, THAT THERE WASN'T THAT OBVIOUS DIRECT LINE BETWEEN THE STATUTES AND THE ACTIVITY.

YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT THIS -- I'M GOING TO SOUND LIKE SUCH A POLLYANNA HERE, BUT I'M GOING TO SAY IT.

I AM A LAWYER, AND I CHECK WITH CORPORATE COUNSEL.

I THINK THAT ALL OF THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED IF MR. KREBS HAD BEEN CHECKING IN WITH THE LAWYERS AT UNM.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO THIS ISN'T THE ONLY LESSON, BUT ONE LESSON FOR ALL OF US IS, IF IT IS GOVERNMENT FUNDS, IF IT'S UNIVERSITY FUNDS, IF IT'S CORPORATE FUNDS, YOU DO RUN SOME RISK WHEN YOU PLAY FAST AND LOOSE, AND WE SEE THIS HERE.

EVEN IN CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT MIGHT NOT BE VIEWED AS EMBEZZLEMENT, IT MIGHT NOT BE VIEWED AS CRIMINAL, CERTAINLY HE BORE THE EMPLOYMENT CONSEQUENCES AND CIVIL CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS, AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN.

EMBARRASSMENT IS NOT ENOUGH.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

I WANT TO FINISH WITH THIS, SHAUN, SINCE YOU WERE THERE.

PART OF MR. KREBS' DEFENSE IS THAT HE NEVER READ UNM'S POLICIES ON COMPLIANCE.

THAT'S AN AMAZING THING TO ADMIT TO OUT LOUD IF YOU'RE AT THE LEVEL OF ATHLETIC DIRECTOR.

HOW DID THAT GO DOWN IN THE ROOM?

I'M CURIOUS, WERE THERE FOLKS THAT BOUGHT INTO THAT, OR WAS THERE LIKE SQUAWKING IN THE COURTROOM SAYING, COME ON, MAN, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE?

>> Shaun: WELL, AGAIN, THE COURTROOM WAS FILLED WITH MOSTLY HIS SUPPORTERS, SO THERE WASN'T A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE COMPLETELY SURPRISED BY THAT.

BUT GOING BACK TO WHAT SOPHIE WAS SAYING HERE, WHAT IS THE ROLE AND THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF AN ATHLETIC DIRECTOR AT THE UNIVERSITY?

MAYBE THERE IS SOMETHING THE LEGISLATURE COULD DO.

>> Sophie: IS IT BUDGETARY?

>> Shaun: IS IT BUDGETARY, IS IT RESPONSIBLE TO HANDLE THE ADMIN?

OR AS KREBS TESTIFIED, HE FELT HIS PREDOMINANT ROLE WAS TO GROW THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT THROUGH FUNDRAISING, THROUGH BUSINESS PARTNERSHIPS, THROUGH STUDENT ATHLETES.

AND SO HIS DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY AS TO HOW HE VIEWED HIS JOB WAS NOT TO READ THE COMPLIANCE BOOK.

IN FACT, TO ACTUALLY HIRE PEOPLE TO READ IT FOR HIM, TO TELL HIM, HEY, LOOK, YOU MIGHT BE CROSSING A LINE HERE.

BUT OF COURSE, ALSO, WHO'S GOING TO TELL THEIR SUPERIOR THEY'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION THAT WASN'T BROUGHT UP.

IT LEADS TO SPECULATION.

BUT TO KREBS' WHOLE POINT, HE FELT HIS WHOLE ROLE WAS TO SPEND MONEY TO MAKE MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID WITH THE SCOTLAND TRIP, WHICH ACTUALLY DIDN'T RAISE AS MUCH MONEY AS HE WANTED TO.

BUT HIS WHOLE EFFORT THERE WAS TO ELEVATE UNM ATHLETICS TO THIS PLACE OF BIG 10, PAC 12, HIGH COLLEGE ATHLETICS.

>> Gene: AND ONCE THAT CHASE STARTS -- >> Shaun: ONCE THAT CHASE STARTS, EXACTLY.

AND HE GOT REALLY CLOSE.

AND WHILE THIS MIGHT BE THE BIGGEST EMBARRASSMENT FOR HIM, I THINK THAT KREBS WILL TELL YOU THAT HIS BIGGEST FAILURE AS UNM A.D. WAS TO NOT ELEVATE THE LOBO ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT TO THAT NEXT STEP.

>> Gene: GOT TO WRAP UP THERE.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION ON THE ONGOING ACTORS AND WRITERS STRIKE THAT'S SHUTTING DOWN FILM PRODUCTIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

BUT BEFORE WE DO, WE WANT TO SHARE AN INSIDE PERSPECTIVE ON THAT LABOR DISPUTE.

KIRK ELLIS HAS WORN QUITE A FEW HATS IN THE FILM INDUSTRY.

YOU GUYS MIGHT KNOW HIM WORKING AS A WRITER, A PRODUCER, A BIG-TIME GUY, AND NOW RUNNING HIS OWN PRODUCTION COMPANY.

I CAUGHT UP WITH HIM LATE LAST WEEK TO GET HIS IMPRESSIONS OF WHERE LABOR AND MANAGEMENT STAND IN THIS IMPASSE, AND WHAT IT COULD TAKE TO REACH AN AGREEMENT.

>> Gene: KIRK, WELCOME.

I REALLY WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR TAKING SOME TIME OUT.

I SEE YOU ROCKING THE COLORS THERE ON YOUR T-SHIRT.

THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

I WANT TO GET INTO OF SOME THE NUTS AND BOLTS HERE.

THERE'S A LOT OF WORD SALAD ACRONYMS OUT THERE.

FOR A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE, AS YOU KNOW, TUNING INTO THE SITUATION LITERALLY JUST NOW, NOT SO MUCH TO THE RUN-UP, BUT THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHO'S JUST NOW KIND OF TUNING INTO THIS, WGA, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO WGA MEMBERS DO?

WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR?

WHAT'S THE ISSUE HERE?

LET'S COVER THE BROAD STROKES FIRST.

>> Ellis: SURE.

SO ON MAY 2ND, APPROXIMATELY 20,000 MEMBERS OF THE WGA, THE WRITERS GUILD OF AMERICA -- AND THERE ARE TWO BRANCHES OF THAT.

THE WRITERS GUILD OF AMERICA WEST, BASED IN LOS ANGELES, AND EAST.

HERE IN NEW MEXICO, WE'RE COVERED UNDER THE WGA WEST CONTRACT.

SO NOT EVERYONE WHO WRITES FOR FILM AND TELEVISION IS A WGA MEMBER.

THAT'S PARTLY BECAUSE THERE'S STILL CERTAIN TYPES OF WRITING, LIKE ANIMATION, COMMERCIALS, THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT ARE NOT YET UNIONIZED.

BUT THOSE OF US WHO WORK UNDER WHAT'S CALLED THE MINIMUM BASIC AGREEMENT, WHICH COMES UP FOR RENEWAL EVERY THREE YEARS, WENT PENCILS DOWN -- I'M ANALOG, IT'S PENCILS DOWN, PENS DOWN, COMPUTER PADS DOWN, WHATEVER DOWN, ON MAY 2ND.

SO AS OF TODAY, WE'VE BEEN ON STRIKE ROUGHLY 70 DAYS.

70 DAYS AND CHANGE.

ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO, THE SCREEN ACTORS GUILD AND AFTRA -- I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT AFTRA STANDS FOR.

BUT THE ACTORS GUILD WENT ON STRIKE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN QUITE A WHILE, AND THIS IS THE FIRST JOINT STRIKE WHERE YOU'VE GOT ACTORS AND WRITERS WALKING THE PICKET LINES TOGETHER SINCE 1960.

AND JUST TO PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE, THAT WAS THE YEAR BEFORE I WAS BORN, AND RONALD REAGAN WAS HEAD OF THE SCREEN ACTORS GUILD.

HE WASN'T EVEN YET GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA.

THAT'S HOW LONG THIS HAS BEEN IN THE MAKING.

I THINK THIS HIT AT A MOMENT WHEN LABOR IN THIS COUNTRY, WHETHER YOU'RE WORKING AS A MOTION PICTURE AND TELEVISION EMPLOYEE, YOU'RE WORKING IN HOTELS, YOU'RE WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, YOU'RE A UPS DRIVER -- THAT'S A STRIKE THAT COULD PARALYZE THE COUNTRY IF THEY WALK OUT NEXT MONTH.

EVERYBODY'S FEELING ABUSED.

EVERYBODY'S FEELING THAT THEY'VE BECOME MERELY GIG WORKERS, THAT WHATEVER WORK THEY DO, WHATEVER CRAFT, WHETHER IT'S CREATIVE OR INDUSTRIAL, HAS BEEN UNDER-APPRECIATED AND UNDER-PAID, AND I THINK IT'S FRANKLY WHAT I CALL THE 'NETWORK' SCENARIO, WHERE PEOPLE ARE JUST MAD AS HELL AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.

THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.

>> Gene: LET'S GET IT INSIDE THE NEW MEXICO BORDERS HERE FOR A QUICK SECOND.

WHAT'S GOING ON LOCALLY?

I UNDERSTAND THERE'S A PICKET LINE, AND A COUPLE OF PRODUCTIONS HAVE BEEN -- I DON'T WANT TO USE THE TERM SHUT DOWN.

THAT'S MAYBE A LITTLE SEVERE.

BUT IT'S BEING HONORED.

AM I RIGHT ON THAT?

>> Ellis: THAT'S TRUE.

PICKET LINES WERE ESTABLISHED HERE.

ACTION AND WE DID PICKET.

THERE ARE -- I THINK IT SURPRISED PEOPLE HOW MANY WRITERS GUILD MEMBERS WERE JUST HERE IN OUR SMALL, QUAINT LITTLE POSTAGE STAMP OF A TOWN IN SANTA FE.

BUT WE DID VERY EFFECTIVE PICKETS WITH FEWER THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE ON TWO MAJOR PRODUCTIONS, AND RIGHT NOW I'M UNAWARE OF ANYTHING THAT'S ACTUALLY SHOOTING IN THE STATE.

AND THAT IS CERTAINLY TRUE IN LOS ANGELES.

THERE'S LITERALLY NOTHING TO PICKET, OTHER THAN THE DAILY PICKET LINES OUTSIDE THE STREAMERS AND STUDIOS.

>> Gene: WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT YOU, KIRK ELLIS, IN YOUR CAREER IS YOU'VE KIND OF EMBODIED THREE SIDES OF THIS.

YOU'VE BEEN A PRODUCER, YOU'RE A WRITER, OBVIOUSLY, AND YOU'VE WORKED WITH ACTORS.

HOW DO YOU PERSONALLY KIND OF MELD ALL THOSE THREE SIDES OF YOU INTO THIS SITUATION?

IT'S PRETTY STRONGLY WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT, AND WHAT'S WRONG IS WRONG, BUT I'M NOT SAYING YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME AFFECTION FOR THE PRODUCERS, BUT DO YOU, YOU KNOW, HAVE A FEEL FOR WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM AT SOME LEVEL?

>> Ellis: SO I SHOULD BE REALLY CLEAR WHEN I USE THE WORD PRODUCERS, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF MISINFORMATION OUT THERE.

THE PRODUCERS GUILD OF AMERICA, WHICH IS NOT A TRADE UNION, IT'S SIMPLY AN AFFILIATION OF PEOPLE WHO PRODUCE FILM AND TV, I'M A MEMBER, CAME OUT WITH A STATEMENT SAYING THAT WE WERE IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE UNIONS.

PRODUCERS DEPEND ON TALENT TO GET THEIR PROJECTS OFF THE PLANNING BOARDS AND ON TO THE STAGE.

WHAT WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT ARE THE MOTION PICTURE AND TELEVISION STUDIOS AND NETWORKS, AND THE STREAMERS.

THE PEOPLE LIKE NETFLIX, AMAZON, HULU, ETC.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DICTATING TERMS THAT WE FIND UNACCEPTABLE.

WHAT REALLY STRUCK ME WHEN SAG QUITE BOLDLY, WITHIN A FEW DAYS OF GOING ON STRIKE, RELEASED THEIR PATTERN OF DEMANDS AND HOW THEY HAD BEEN MET, OR MORE ACCURATELY NOT MET, BY THE AMPTP, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY HOW SIMILAR THE ACTORS ISSUES WERE TO THE WRITERS.

NOT ONLY WITH THE SORT OF ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM OF AI, BUT WITH THE SENSE THAT THE AVERAGE ACTOR, JUST LIKE THE AVERAGE WRITER, CAN'T MAKE A LIVING.

THERE ARE PEOPLE IN MY GUILD WHO ARE CREATORS AND SHOW RUNNERS WHO ARE DRIVING UBER, WHO ARE DRIVING LYFT.

SHOW RUNNERS.

PEOPLE WHO CREATE SHOWS AND ARE GIVEN EMMY AWARDS FOR THIS, LET ALONE PEOPLE IN ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SORT OF GRASS ROOTS STRIKE HERE.

AS MUCH AS THE PRODUCERS WANT TO PITCH IT AS A HANDFUL OF ELITE MEMBERS OF BOTH GUILDS THROWING EVERYBODY ELSE OUT OF WORK, THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT WHAT I EXPERIENCED.

>> Gene: LET'S GET INTO, WHAT ARE THE DEMANDS, WHAT DO THE STUDIOS WANT, WHAT DO THE WRITERS WANT.

WHAT'S THE BASIC RUB HERE?

>> Ellis: SO THE EASIER QUESTION IS, WHAT DO THE STUDIOS WANT.

THE STUDIOS WANT NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER.

THEY WANT TO PROVIDE A MINIMUM, LESS THAN COST OF LIVING INCREASE IN CERTAIN QUARTERS, AND CALL IT QUITS.

SO IN TERMS OF WHAT WRITERS ARE LOOKING FOR, AS WITH ANY LABOR ACTION, MONEY IS AT THE HEART OF IT.

WHETHER YOU'RE WORKING ON -- WHETHER YOU'VE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS AS LONG AS I'VE BEEN AND YOU'VE WORKED UP TO THE LEVEL THAT I'VE ACHIEVED, OR YOU'RE JUST COMING IN, YOU KNOW, REAL WAGES, YOU ARE WORKING NOW FOR LESS MONEY THAN WHEN YOU STARTED.

THAN WHEN YOU STARTED FIVE YEARS AGO, TEN YEARS AGO, TWENTY YEARS AGO, OR THIRTY YEARS AGO.

YOU'RE WORKING FOR LESS MONEY.

>> Gene: FOR NEW MEXICANS, WHAT'S THE UPSHOT?

I ALWAYS LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE, ANY INDUSTRY HERE, IT'S ALWAYS ON TENDER FOOTING.

EVEN THOUGH WE'RE RAKING IN LOTS OF MONEY AND IT SEEMS LIKE THINGS ARE GOING GREAT IN THE FILM BUSINESS, THINGS CAN TURN IN A SEASON, SO TO SPEAK.

GEORGIA IS COMING ON, HAS BEEN DOING THEIR THING.

LOTS OF OTHER STATES.

LOUISIANA, DOING THEIR THING.

YOU NEVER KNOW HOW THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO GO.

I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO PREDICT FOR NEW MEXICO, BUT WHAT'S THE UPSHOT FOR US IF THIS DOESN'T GO WELL FOR ACTORS AND WRITERS?

>> Ellis: THERE'S A FLAW IN THE SYSTEM, AND THE FLAW IN THE SYSTEM HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

WHEN THIS WAS FIRST BEING CONTEMPLATED BY BILL RICHARDSON AND THE UNFORTUNATELY NOW LATE ERIC WITT, I WAS ON WHAT WAS CALLED THE GOVERNOR'S COUNCIL FOR FILM AND TELEVISION INDUSTRIES.

I THINK I GOT THAT RIGHT.

MY INITIAL SORT OF BACK OF THE BRAIN CONCERN, WHICH THIS STRIKE HAS BROUGHT OUT, IS THAT WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT THIS INCENTIVE, WE DID NOT LOOK AT A PARALLEL INCENTIVE FOR NEW MEXICO BASED CREATORS OF CONTENT, NEW MEXICO WRITERS, NEW MEXICO DIRECTORS, NEW MEXICO ACTORS.

WE CONCEIVED IT AS A SERVICE INDUSTRY.

SO UNFORTUNATELY, AS A RESULT OF DOING THAT, WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT THERE ARE NONE OF US WHO CREATE PRODUCT HERE WHO COULD QUALIFY FOR A SAG WAIVER, OR A WGA WAIVER, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW OUR INDUSTRY IS SET UP.

SO WE WILL ALL NEW MEXICANS, NO MATTER WHAT OUR UNION OR WHAT OUR CRAFT, WE ARE NOW GOING TO HAVE TO WEATHER THIS SHUT DOWN TOGETHER, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THIS INDUSTRY WAS CREATED HERE.

AND WE WILL, BY THE WAY.

WE WILL.

>> Gene: THANKS AGAIN TO KIRK ELLIS FOR SITTING DOWN WITH US.

TO CATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW, HEAD TO THE NEW MEXICO In FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW, WHILE WE'RE AT IT, LET'S HEAR FROM A VOICE FAMILIAR TO MOST NEW MEXICANS, IF YOU WATCH TELEVISION.

FROM TIMES SQUARE NO LESS, TAKE IT AWAY BRIAN CRANSTON.

>> Cranston: THEY ARE FIGHTING US TOOTH AND NAIL TO STICK TO THE SAME ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT IS OUTMODED, OUTDATED.

THEY WANT US TO STEP BACK IN TIME.

WE CANNOT AND WE WILL NOT DO THAT.

WE WILL NOT HAVE YOU TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHT TO WORK AND EARN A DECENT LIVING.

AND LASTLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WE WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO TAKE AWAY OUR DIGNITY!

[CHEERING] >> Gene: WELCOME BACK FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION HERE ON THE LINE.

THE NATIONWIDE WRITERS STRIKE THAT BEGAN IN MAY ESCALATED THIS MONTH AS THE ACTORS' UNION SAG-AFTRA, JOINED WRITERS ON THE PICKET LINE.

THAT'S WHY YOU JUST SAW MR. CRANSTON FIRED UP IN A SPEECH WHERE HE CALLED OUT DISNEY CEO BOB IGER BY NAME, SAYING HE AND THE UNION WON'T BUDGE.

IT'S THE LATEST DEVELOPMENT IN A STRIKE THAT'S GROUND FILM PRODUCTION IN NEW MEXICO TO A HALT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YEARS, AND LIKE KIRK ELLIS SAID, IT'S THE FIRST TIME SINCE RONALD REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT OF SAG THAT WRITERS AND ACTORS HAVE JOINED TOGETHER IN A LABOR DISPUTE WITH STUDIOS.

THERE'S SOME CLEAR SPECIFIC DEMANDS THAT APPLY TO THIS INDUSTRY IN PARTICULAR, BUT SOPHIE, LET ME START HERE.

DO YOU AGREE WITH MR. ELLIS' CONTENTION THAT THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF A NATIONAL WORKFORCE ISSUE THAT FEELS LARGELY UNAPPRECIATED?

LIKE THIS IS PART OF SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER THAT'S GOING ON HERE.

>> Sophie: I LOVE THAT YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE UPS, THE THREATENED UPS STRIKE, THE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT, WHICH I THINK COMPANIES, ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE BEEN CROSSING THEIR FINGERS THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TO STRIKE, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF OUR COMMERCE THESE DAYS TRAVELS ON TRUCKS AND PLANES FROM UPS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS SORT OF ONE OF THOSE UNION MOMENTS, WHICH I THINK WE'VE, AS GENERALLY A UNION SUPPORTER, I THINK WE'VE NEEDED.

IT'S SO HIGH PROFILE.

I MEAN, YOU SEE MARK RUFFALO OR YOU SEE FRAN DRESCHER.

LIKE, OH, MY CHILDHOOD BROUGHT BACK IN FRONT OF ME.

YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE OUT ON THE PICKET LINES, AND YOU REALIZE THAT UNION REPRESENTATION IS A BIG PART OF THE FABRIC OF OUR SOCIETY, EVEN WHEN WE DON'T NORMALLY SEE IT.

SO I THINK SOMETHING SORT OF BIGGER THAN JUST THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY IS HAPPENING HERE.

>> Gene: THAT'S AN EXCELLENT POINT.

COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, WHEN WE WERE YOUNG, DEDE, WAS A BIG DEAL IN THE SEVENTIES, AND IT SORT OF WENT AWAY WHEN THE PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED MR. REAGAN CAME INTO OFFICE.

UNIONS SORT OF DISAPPEARED.

BUT CHECK IT OUT.

AS SOPHIE MENTIONED, STARBUCKS, AMAZON, TRADER JOE'S.

CURRENTLY 340,000 UNIONIZED UPS EMPLOYEES, OF COURSE SETTLED.

BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, THE NUMBER OF WORKERS INVOLVED IN STRIKES AND SIMILAR WORK STOPPAGES HAS INCREASED BY NEARLY 50 PERCENT BY JUST 2021.

SOMETHING'S IN THE AIR ABOUT UNIONS, IF YOU WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT, WHAT SOPHIE MENTIONED.

>> Dede: YES, THIS IS A MOMENT FOR UNIONS, AND IT IS A DIFFICULT MOMENT, THOUGH, MORE DIFFICULT THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR UNIONS IN THE PAST, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUST A MANUFACTURING ECONOMY ANYMORE, THIS IS KIND OF A GIG ECONOMY WHERE EVERYONE IS A FREELANCER, AND THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE SAME KIND OF UNION ORGANIZING AS, YOU KNOW, THE TRADITIONAL KIND OF UNION ORGANIZING.

UNIONS ARE AT A LOW EBB IN NEW MEXICO, AND SO I WAS REALLY GRATIFIED TO SEE ALL THE FOLKS OUT ON THE PICKET LINE YESTERDAY HERE.

I THINK THERE WERE 250 PEOPLE OUT THERE.

THEY WERE NOT -- >> Sophie: WEDNESDAY.

>> Gene: AT NETFLIX AT MESA DEL SOL, YES.

>> Dede: YES, IN FRONT OF NETFLIX.

SO IT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF NEGOTIATION, THOUGH.

I MEAN, THIS IS A NEGOTIATION ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND RESIDUALS AND THE KIND OF PART-TIME WORK THAT MOST MOVIE FOLKS DO.

IT'S NOT LIKE A 9:00 TO 5:00 DAY WITH BENEFITS, IT'S MUCH MORE SCATTERSHOT THAN THAT, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH, WHICH IS, I THINK, WHY I'M REALLY GLAD TO SEE THE UNIONS WORKING IN THIS COMMUNITY, BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER COMMUNITIES THAT ARE SOMEWHAT ANALOGOUS TO THAT, TOO.

DELIVERIES ARE ONE OF THEM.

UBER.

IT'S THE NEW ECONOMY THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WORKERS ARE NOT LEFT OUT OF, BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING LEFT OUT.

>> Gene: WELL, THERE'S A REASON UBER TRIED TO UNIONIZE.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

PEOPLE FIGURED OUT, THE GIG ECONOMY CAN ONLY TAKE YOU SO LONG, SHAUN.

INTERESTING POINT THERE, BIT OF A RIF ON WHAT DEDE JUST MENTIONED, THIS STRIKE IS PROJECTED TO GO FOR A BIT, AND IT'S GOING TO BE IMPACTFUL FOR A STATE THAT DOESN'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF FOLDING MONEY TO GET BY, SO TO SPEAK.

I'M WONDERING IN YOUR VIEW, CONSIDERING OUR STATE'S ECONOMY, THE KIND OF PUBLIC MONEY WE'RE DOLING OUT, IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR ELECTEDS TO START SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THIS AND SAY, HEY, GUY, CAN WE START TO THINK ABOUT SETTLING THIS ISSUE?

IS THAT APPROPRIATE, INAPPROPRIATE?

WHERE DO ELECTED FOLKS FIT INTO THIS?

>> Shaun: I'VE BEEN WONDERING ABOUT THAT MYSELF.

I FEEL LIKE IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR ELECTEDS TO EVEN JUST POLITICALLY STAND ON THE SIDE FOR WORKERS.

AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE IF THERE ARE ANY LEGAL ISSUES.

ARE YOU AWARE OF ANYTHING THAT COULD POTENTIAL SHOW WHY THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SAY -- >> Dede: JUST THIS MORNING, OR YESTERDAY, THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, WHERE THIS IS SUCH A BIG INDUSTRY, SAID HE WANTED TO MEDIATE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES.

SO THAT WOULD BE A ROLE FOR LEADERSHIP.

>> Shaun: AND IT SHOULD BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN, IT MAKES SENSE.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE SUPPORTING THIS ECONOMY CLASS, THIS CREATIVE CLASS, THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT YOU BROUGHT IN WITH INCENTIVES TO WORK AND OPERATE AND BUILD A STRONG ECONOMY IN NEW MEXICO, YOU WANT TO PRESERVE IT, YOU WANT TO PROTECT IT.

SO THEY SHOULD BE SPEAKING OUT FOR IT.

I THINK ONE THING THAT WE'RE AT IN THIS MOMENT THAT I THINK IS ALSO SIGNIFICANT FOR ALL THIS, WITH THE REVENUES INCREASING, EXECUTIVES PAY AND COMPENSATION INCREASING, THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING ELSE IS INCREASING, RENT, FOOD, COST OF LIVING, BUT SALARIES AREN'T INCREASING, AND THAT'S REALLY WHERE ELECTED OFFICIALS SHOULD BE LEANING INTO.

AND WE ALSO UNDERSTOOD FROM THE PANDEMIC, ONE OF THE LESSONS OF MANY THAT WE'VE UNDERSTOOD THROUGH THE PANDEMIC IS THE REALLY BENEFIT AND GREATNESS THAT CREATIVE ECONOMIES BRING FOR US.

YOU KNOW, HOW MANY OF US DEPENDED ON A NETFLIX SERIES, OR HOW MANY OF US DEPENDED ON MUSIC OR A TELEVISION SHOW JUST TO GET THROUGH THE DAILY LIFE OF LIVING IN A LOCKDOWN?

AND WE NEED TO REALLY START TREATING IT WITH MORE SERIOUSNESS AND PROVIDE THAT CREATIVE CLASS WHAT THEY DESERVE.

>> Gene: THAT'S FAIR.

LET'S FINISH WITH THIS, SOPHIE.

DEDE MENTIONED, OF COURSE, THE STRIKE OUT AT NETFLIX.

IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF THE RELATIONSHIP CHANGING WITH NBC UNIVERSAL, NETFLIX, ALL THE FOLKS WHO DROPPED ANCHOR HERE, WHO'VE DRIVEN A DEEP STAKE INTO NEW MEXICO?

>> Sophie: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOT -- WE'RE NOT SORT OF THE EXEMPLAR OF THE WORKER PROTECTION ENVIRONMENT.

>> Gene: REGRETTABLY.

>> Sophie: RIGHT.

SO ARE THEY GOING TO LOOK AT US FIRST, ARE THEY GOING TO LOOK AT CALIFORNIA FIRST?

IT'S HARD TO SAY.

YOU KNOW, ONE THING IF I COULD JUST VERY QUICKLY PICK UP ON, DEDE MENTIONED AI, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS THE FIRST SORT OF LARGE PUBLIC ACTION, REALLY PUTTING IN PEOPLE'S FACES THAT AI IS MORE THAN JUST KNOWLEDGE WORKERS, RIGHT.

THAT THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TECHNOLOGIES ARE NOT THERE YET, BUT AT SOME POINT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THE IMPACT ON KNOWLEDGE WORKERS, BUT ALSO ON MANUFACTURING, THE WORKERS AND MANUFACTURING.

THEY'RE ALREADY DEALING WITH AUTOMATION AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

TO SEE THESE OTHER TYPES OF INDUSTRIES SUDDENLY SAYING, AHH, THIS COULD HAVE A REALLY BIG IMPACT ON HUMANS, THAT'S A BIG DEAL.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

INTERESTING POINT, TOO, THAT WAS MADE.

THIS IS THE WINDOW.

IF THEY TRY TO COME BACK THREE YEARS FROM NOW AND NEGOTIATE, IT DOESN'T MATTER, BECAUSE THE STUDIOS WILL HAVE EVERYTHING THEY WANT.

THIS IS THE MOMENT FOR THESE FOLKS, YOU CAN FEEL IT.

THEY'VE GOT TO DIG IN NOW BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE.

THANKS AGAIN TO SOURCE NEW MEXICO EDITOR SHAUN GRISWOLD, ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN, AND FORMER JOURNALIST AND LEGISLATOR DEDE FELDMAN FOR BEING ON THE SHOW THIS WEEK.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANY OF THE TOPICS WE COVERED ON OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES.

AND CATCH ANY EPISODES YOU MAY HAVE MISSED ON THE PBS APP, ON YOUR ROKU OR SMART T.V.

>> Gene: YOU KNOW SOMETHING IS REACHING CRITICAL MASS WHEN IT STARTS TO FEEL LIKE WHENEVER YOU TURN AROUND TO FACE A SUBJECT, HAVE A POLICY DISCUSSION, OR ANYTHING ELSE, IT'S ALWAYS THERE WANTED OR NOT.

AND SO IT IS WHEN THE SPECTER OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS IN YOUR EYE LINE.

HEY, SUPER QUICK, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT AI HERE AT NEW MEXICO In FOCUS IN THE NEAR FUTURE AND HOW IT HAS UPROOTED EDUCATION, ART, SCIENCE, AND MEDIA IN NEW MEXICO, BUT THERE IS ACTIVITY ON THIS RIGHT NOW.

TRIP JENNINGS HAS A THOUGHTFUL PIECE OUT ON AI VIA NEW MEXICO IN-DEPTH ENTITLED, 'ENTERING AN AI WORLD WITH EYES WIDE OPEN.'

I'M GOING TO PUT IT IN THE HIGHLY RECOMMENDED SLOT, BECAUSE IT'S A MUST READ RIGHT NOW.

YOU ALSO MAY HAVE SEEN THE INTERIM LEGISLATURE COMMITTEE HELD A MEETING IN TAOS ON MONDAY TO ADDRESS THE THREAT OF AI, INCLUDING TESTIMONY FROM GEORGE R.R.

MARTIN WHO SAID AT THE MEETING: "THERE'S A CHANCE HERE FOR THINGS TO GO VERY, VERY BAD."

WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE ACTORS AND WRITERS STRIKE GOING NOW.

I HOPE WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO LAY OUT THE STAKES AT PLAY WITH THE ASSORTMENT OF INTERVIEWS WE'VE DONE TO DATE, BECAUSE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS LIKE WHO ACTUALLY OWNS YOUR FACE AS A BACKGROUND ACTOR HAVE IMPLICATIONS FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

I'VE MESSED AROUND WITH CHAT GPT AND VARIOUS FREE AI SOFTWARE, AND I HAVE TO SAY HERE, GUYS, IT SPOOKS ME.

WHEN YOU SIT BACK IN YOUR CHAIR AND LISTEN TO A CELEBRITY OR A LOCAL POLITICIAN'S FAKE, BUT DISTURBINGLY REAL VOICE SAYING WORDS I TYPED IN VIA A FREE TEXT-TO-VOICE PROGRAM, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER ABOUT AI AND ITS POTENTIAL FOR PROBLEMS.

AI IS HERE, AND NOW, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN IT, SUPPORT IT, DESPISE IT, OR ANYTHING ELSE, IT'S NOT GOING AWAY.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, In FOCUS.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.