Since I was a kid, I've wondered where the black -people were, and assumed it -was like somewhere suffering -and these papers were like -!they were living just like how -we're living, like, What do -you mean?

I'm shocked at how -small my imagination was, but -I'd never had any inputs that -would have led me to believe -otherwise.

-So two weeks ago, I got -invited to sit in on a table -read for a podcast hosted by -today's guest in the reading, -she told me and some other -heavy hitter folks in the -podcast world like Phia Benin -an editor at WBEZ Chicago's -This American Life, and Nina -Pathak, think it's been a -minute, also all things NPR -anyway, she told us a little -story from deep in the gossip -archives of black American -newspapers.

The Gossip was -messy, but the person at the -!helm of it all telling us this -fascinating yarn, well, she's -anything but.

You're like one -of those people floating out -there in the universe and in -this world of podcasters that -I look to and check out like -when I'm having a really bad -day.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

-Nichole Hill is black, -!brilliant, gifted and creating -!quite the buzz in the world of -podcasts, and I do think of -!her when I'm having a bad day, -or rather a lonely day out -here in these black podcast -host streets in part because -she can do it all.

She is the -award winning show runner and -creator of our ancestors were -messy, a 2024, official -Tribeca audio selection.

-Through her show, Nichole is -!pulling the rug out from under -the pedestal we tend to put -!figures in black history on to -her people like Langston -Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston -were huge contributors to -black culture, but they were -also just people, sometimes -messy people, people with -victories and mistakes and -everything in between, and in -every episode, Nichole pulls -folks from pre civil rights -headlines, researches them -deeply and paints an audio -mural of their everyday, -sometimes mundane, often -hilarious, lives, all while -serving you up a hefty plate -of black history without you -even knowing it.

-So people are whispering, and -Azalea hears about this, and -she's like, I hate Ida B -Wells, you know, I don't want -you talking to her.

What are -you doing?

Beefing, beefing, -beefing.

So, like, one time -!Frederick Douglass was like, I -!will hook you up.

And he said, -great.

Okay, great.

And then -Frederick Douglass is like, -no, no, I can't.

He publishes -all this like, I hate you.

I -!hate the way that you dress.

I -hate the way that you hair.

-Like just -She's also worked as a -showrunner for I am America -with Tracy Ellis Ross she has -a name with Tonya Mosley, and -apathy is not an option.

Her -work has appeared on podcasts -for Audible, NPR, PRX, snap -judgment and New York -Magazine.

This girl is busy -!with a capital B, which is why -!I was floored to be invited to -her reading.

The process for -Nichole's show is intentional -and methodical.

She straddles -!a very fine line between host, -podcaster, sleuth and -archivist.

-I usually find something in -the paper, then I do months -and months of research and I -write, write, write and -rewrite and rewrite and -rewrite, and then when it's -ready, the scariest thing of -all, honestly, even scarier -than when I have my actual -guests, and we do the -recording as a table read.

So -I invite like two or three -people and I read them, I'm -meant to be, like, performing -the script for them, because -my mandate is to be both educational and thought provoking, but to also be entertaining.

We were -educated and we were -!definitely entertained.

Nichole -told us a story about Paul -Robeson, the athlete, singer -and activist, who was pretty -!much the MLK no one ever heard of.

And I had a lot of fun, so much fun that we stayed until it was dark.

-Paul plays twins in love with -!the same woman.

One twin, hard -working and noble.

The other -an evil reverend.

I keep -going, Oh, wow, you're a new -person.

-Oh, yeah, do a different -voice.

-!Paul appears in Eugene O'Neill -play Amber Jones.

Now he's -huge in Europe, and his -profile rises in the US.

-I wanted to talk to Nichole -!after this reading to find out -how her brain works, first of -all, but also to learn more -about her point of view.

I -mean, black woman to black -woman.

Calling our ancestors -!messy could be a tough sell.

I -!wanted to ask Nichole straight -up, where did you get the -nerve like really, when it -!comes to black folks, we're so -busy fighting for our -humanity, can we afford to be -!painted as messy for you know, -black folks and for black -women like you and me, like -the the posturing is a lot, -right, and, and, so I just -!wonder, like, Do you ever feel -like you're kind of crossing -that line today with your -show?

-I just wanted to tell a story -about these people that I -think are giants and, and, -and normal and more -representative of who I will -be when you look at history -1000 years from now, which is -like, probably won't be a -statue, but there'll be a -human -from Vermont public this is -homegoings a show that -invites you to eavesdrop on -candid conversations with -!people who will challenge what -you think you know.

I'm Myra -Flynn today on the show the -!indomitable Nichole Hill, show -runner, host, dreamer, maker -and unapologetic gossip -spreader, we're going to dive -right into what it takes to -keep doing this work as black -podcasters during such -!divisive times, and why Nichole -thinks our ancestors, their -!jobs, their activism and their -messy relationships are so -!dang interesting.

This is home- -goings.

We're a proud member -of the NPR Network.

Welcome -home.

-I am a young like, I'm a -fledgling podcaster, a young -black woman like, very far in -the future, and our ancestors -were messy.

Has been on my, -you know, parents, radar, -!grandparents radar, for a long -time.

And I'm, I'm trying my -hand to, like, revive this -!cult classic podcast in my own -way.

And the first ancestor -that I would like to explore -and profile is Nichole Hill, -the show shows creator.

-Whats your profile?

-Okay, normal person is a nerd -and researchers.

I would -probably be, it would be -something like, I don't know -exactly what I would say, but -these always start off as, -like, I can see it.

So you -would definitely be a girl in -the back of a truck with a -!suitcase driving through like, -Kansas, just looking around -with a notebook.

I'd be -popping in towns and diners -interviewing people, which I -!that was my all of my 20s.

I'm -at the club, kind of having too deep of a conversation with a guy who -!just wants my number.

Like, it -would be like, you just see -this image of a girl just -everywhere asking too many -!questions.

I have the thing on -!my on my Instagram, it says, I -listen loud.

And so that -would, that would be me.

-You've managed this thing -that's really, it's actually -really hard for me to do on -!the show, and it's really hard -for a lot of people to do, -which I think is feed people -!their vegetables with just the -right amount of sugar.

Like, -you're so funny, you're so -you're so funny and and -somehow you're still -!completely giving people their -black history, which is like -!under threat right now.

And so -I just, I have a lot of -questions about you today.

I -!don't think folks know as much -about you as they do about -your show and your work, you -kind of seem to be your work.

-But I'm curious, like, I'm -curious, like, what, what is your story with how this, this show started, it's incpetion?

-I started it probably, I -started this one indie show -called The Secret Adventures -of black people.

I wanted to -get into podcasting.

It was -the heyday gimlet had.

You -know, was like thriving.

-Spotify had just bought gimlet, so it looked like we could have a career in podcasting.

So I was going to -transition from ed reform, -which is the work I had been -doing, fundraising around the -arts, things like that, and -!try to get into podcasting.

So -I said, let me make a little -resume, a little portfolio -project, because my resume -made no sense for podcasting.

-No one would have ever hired -me.

What was on your resume?

-!What was on it?

After college, -I went to do national service -for two years.

I like, lived -all over the country.

I built -!trails and houses and did just -!hurricane relief, things like, -wow.

Then I did fundraising -for, like, various Ed -nonprofits.

Then I did, like, -construction, like, I led -volunteers in doing kind of -construction related projects -in schools in New York City.

-Like, it just is all these -!things where it's like, no, we -don't want you to -work on our podcast.

-We watch you out in these -streets.

Like, basically, -right, right, yeah, -I made the secret of interest -to be Hello, welcome.

I can -make podcasts, and this is -what they would sound like.

-And when I released it, I had -got laid off and, like, the -same day.

It just so happened -that it happened on the same -!day.

And people were like, Oh, -we like your style.

Would you -come work on our podcast?

So -that's like, how I got -started.

And in that time, I -wanted to tell a story, tell -!these stories about black life -that were I wasn't hearing.

-And I started researching -gentrification in DC, and I -was like, I want to tell a -story about gentrification, but I don't want it to be every story you've ever -heard about gentrification, -where it's like it was awful -and now it's good, and now we -feel conflicted.

So I went -further back in history, and -that's what I found the -newspapers.

And I was just -like, what the Library of -Congress has done such an -!extraordinary job of archiving -!10s of.

1000s, and it's broken -down by state and city, and -it's specific for black -people.

And when I started -!reading them, I'm a person who -loves the 1920s to 1950s -cinema.

Anyway, I always have -since I was a kid.

And the -!I've always wondered where the -!black people were, and assumed -it was like somewhere -suffering.

And these papers -were like they were living, -just like how we're living, -like, What do you mean?

-They're you know how good I'm -shocked at how small my -!imagination was, but I'd never -!had any inputs that would have -led me to believe otherwise.

-!For folks who have never heard -!of your show or what did we do -the other day?

What did you -have me do the other day?

I -feel like I left changed.

It -!was amazing.

And kind of, your -process for your show, like, -it's quite complicated.

-Well, where we were doing the -like, high level process of -something is, I usually find -something in the paper.

In -this case, I found a horrible -review of a Paul Robeson -movie.

People were just -!dragging him.

And I was always -like, ah, what he's supposed -to be like, so perfect and -great.

So I just kept that in -the back of my mind, and then -!eventually, when I had time, I -read a few biographies, and I -was like, I want to do an -episode about Paul Robeson, -but they all kind of start -with some drama and a paper.

-!So then I do months and months -of research, and I write, -write, write and rewrite and -rewrite and rewrite, and my -!team will edit the scripts and -send me additional research.

We'll talk about these themes that I think are coming -!up in the story, and then when -!it's ready, the scariest thing -!of all, honestly, even scarier -than when I have my actual -guests, and we do the -recording as a table read by -invite, like, two or three -people, and I read them.

I'm -meant to be like performing -the script for them, so that, -because my mandate is to be -both educational and thought -provoking, but to also be -entertaining.

So I need a -guest to see how they -experience the script, and I -need an audience to see how -they are experiencing the -!script and what questions come -up for them.

And it's it's a -hard process, because the -table read is meant to find -all of the things that aren't -working, the little rabbit -holes that I went down that -were really exciting for me -but not the best for the -story.

Or, like, not really -getting the ancestors thing -across is really my deal.

And so I was able to pick up on a lot of those while we -talk.

But it's also just to -see how it feels to tell it -and what works too.

I mean, -what works is important when -y'all laugh and when y'all -gasp, and so there are like, -these points that are kind of -unique to the show, because -it's like, is it confusing or -is it shocking?

You know?

And I like for people to be like, wait, what?

But I think in a -traditional piece, you'd want -people to be really clear all -!throughout.

But I'm trying to, -like, throw you off a little -bit.

So it's just a lot of -testing.

-Paul feels like a cardboard -cutout of just like a -beautiful talent, like -insanely talented guy.

You're -just like everything.

You're -like football player, lawyer, -actor, singer, but I don't like telling him what to do.

-Yeah, and like, everything -seems like she's making -friends with this guy and she -has her roommate.

And like, I -guess I feel like you can, -!like, lean into that if she's, -!like, actually the brains, and -he's just, like, a pretty, -pretty himbo guy.

What a rich -!process.

I think you said when -we first met up that it took -you, like, five years to -launch season one.

Is that -true?

Five years of all this -!research?

Did you?

Did you get -bored of it?

Yeah, -!no, no.

I mean, I just because -it's me, it's, it's these, -these portraits of us that I -was kind of like, I feel like -a archeologist, like digging -around and discovering in and -I am kind of a solitary -figure, so I do like to be -!alone, just like just, I think -the I've had to be a lot of -things to make the show, but -!mainly, I'm a writer, and so I just sit with the history and be like, what are -the combination of words I -could say to make You feel -this with a lot of black -history.

You think it's very -black history is usually -!present in a very intellectual -way and or hot takes, like, -you know, they were doing -respectability politics, like -dismiss them, or, you know, -this is about the black body.

-!But I want you to feel it like -how it feels when you watch a -good movie and how it feels -when you hear a beautiful -!song.

It's not an intellectual -!exercise, and so I just had to -learn how to be a better -writer, how to be a better -researcher.

For centuries, -Russia's labor system of -choice was serfdom.

Everyone -points out it's not -technically slavery.

Peasants -!were just legally bound to the -!land they were born on to, and they had to work that land and couldn't leave or change jobs or travel or marry without the -!landlord's permission.

But the -landlord didn't own the -people, just the land.

The -land was making them do all -that stuff, like those girls who were, like, really into Greek -mythology in high school, -right?

Okay, so there's like, -I. I wasn't you.

I mean, I -!guess, like, there are certain -people who are kind of -fascinated with other periods -of time in time, and I'm -trying to picture little -Nicole or high school Nicole.

-!And were you, like, quiet with -your book sell to your chest?

-Were you out on stage?

Like, -who?

Yeah, were you Greek -mythology?

Girl?

Like, what -!was going on with you that led -you down this path?

-Well, I mean, I think it's -because I loved old movies.

I -just I saw the movie shame in -the I was in seventh grade -science or something.

No, it -!must have been in English.

And -!I they, like, brought in, they -wheeled in the TV.

Okay?

They -used to bring those in and -they put it on, and I just -like, the title score is one -of those moments I always, -always remember.

And I went -home, and I was like, Mom, did you know there are movies that look like -this?

And she was like, yeah, -!here's Turner, classic movies, -!here's AMC.

So I was watching, -I've been watching them since -forever, and I loved history.

-I love Greek, and i i i Just -like stories about other -!places and times.

I think it's -fun to escape into that.

I've -always found it fun to escape -into that.

So this probably -was always going to happen, -!and there's a lot of questions -about the research, which -initially I was taking such -!offense to because I was being -like, such a little artist -!brat as you should be, so lost -in the storytelling that you -don't even -notice the research.

-Except these stories have, -like, never been told -properly.

Research is such a -flex.

I mean, -yeah, now I'm like, I've -gotten over that.

But for me, -what I was trying to do, -because what I do for a -living, and what I love is -interviewing, and so I was -!just interviewing them, and to -get the answers, you have to do all this extra digging and stuff like that, but the research part of it, I thought would be the least -!interesting, because I'm like, -!well, people don't usually ask -!me about my interview process, -like how I prep for -interviews.

But that's truly -what I think of it as doing.

-What is your day job?

I do?

I -make podcasts for other -people.

I do, yeah, I usually -take on, like, a lot of -!clients, and then I do, I show -run, so I'll manage their -!whole production, or I'll just -manage a piece of I do a lot -!of story editing or consulting -with people about, like, how -to get things going.

That's, -oh, I love -that cool so fairly fully -!immersed in the podcast world, -so much I just started -thinking about the title of -your podcast.

Our ancestors -!were messy.

And I'm like, that -is busting down so many -stereotypes I feel about the -the like, almost like elite -!reverence that our people have -for our ancestors, like, not -only will we not speak ill of -them, but like they are, you -know, held in almost a saint -like or God like place, I -!think, for a lot of us and how -!we were raised.

So to see your -title, our ancestors are -messy.

I'm like, wow.

Like, -how dare you.

But also like, -Thank you.

You know, have you -ever, like, kind of battled -with, I guess, the right to -take away some of that -reverence and kind of put -!people on display?

Absolutely.

-I mean, the first two years -was me writing like, -reverential histories, and -people being like, this is -!good.

This is nice.

Like being -really bored, though, but not -bored.

I don't know, being -!engaging with black history in the ways that we typically engage with black history which is just sort of like, -this is important, and this -matters.

And they were very -brave and okay, but then I -hear people talk about like -bridgerton or something, or I -hear the way that people talk -about the housewives, or I -!hear the ways that people talk -!about like whatever Beyonce is -doing, and it's passionate.

-And they were so passionate -!when I found these newspapers, -I was living in DC, and I was -up the street from the -Capitol.

I was there when -during the insurrection and -!itself, in fact, and there was a park that I used to always walk to because we -were in lockdown, and I would -go to this park all the time.

-And once the insurrection -happened, they stationed all -!these soldiers there.

And so I -would go and I would sit -there, and everybody had -always been walking through -around the park looking like -hot messes because we were in -a pandemic.

And then once the -soldiers came, everybody -starts like, why is -!everybody's in these nice yoga -pants and like, their -ponytails are like, brushed what's going on?

And then they're all going by the soldiers, and they're like, Thank you for your -service.

And like, being all, -like, flirted with them, -buying them food they were -being fed.

It was ridiculous.

-Like, oh, here at the end of -things, we're just trying, -everybody's just trying to -find a boo.

I would one day I -went for a run a dude with a -giant machine gun.

Like a -girl, like a National Guard -member working Yes, I was -like, You should have hit on -!me with a gigantic gun in your -!hand and a tank behind you.

We -!just got insurrected.

But this -is who we are, and that's -never going to make a history -book.

So it's going to seem -like we're crazy or there's -something wrong with us, but -this is who we are while they were trying to fight Jim Crow.

That's what I love.

The juxtaposition.

While they're -trying to figure out, what is -it going to take to beat Jim -Crow, they're also these like -advice columns.

That's like, -my sister is sleeping with -this married man.

My -neighbor's dog is so loud and -I might I'm thinking about, -like, what can I do to get -this dog out of here?

Like -you, of course, they were -!always doing both.

And so what -I mainly wanted to do was to -show the mess of like, having -to try to figure out, like, what is it going to mean to be black in America when my -!parents were slaves, we're the -first generations to be born -free.

So we're making it up.

-Where do black people like, -live?

Like, is North Dakota a -black state?

Like, I don't -know.

Let's find out.

So, -like, I love the messiness of -exploration of identity, I -love the messiness of -interpersonal relationships, -and then I love all the -!messiness of their conflicting -!ideas about what it would take -to beat Jim Crow in the end.

-And my team and I talk a lot -about the underlying -philosophies, and that's the stuff I really want to talk about.

But nobody's -going to be like, listen to a -podcast that's exclusively -about the philosophies of -1930s black people.

-!I would totally listen to that -!podcast.

I would also, I would -like be the first to sign up -!for that course in college.

So -some of us are can all nerd -out together.

I hear you.

That'll be the next one.

Yeah, and it might come about at a -!very necessary time.

So, yeah, -text textbooks are next on -your agenda.

You're gonna -start -writing textbooks.

I'll just -throw that on there.

-Yeah, on the list.

-Can you tease a little bit of -like, what we got into with -Paul Robeson, like, this dude -was very messy.

-We talked about Paul, who is -famously an actor.

I think -everybody sort of like, -usually, when you bring up -Paul ropes, then people will -say like, Oh, did he act or -something?

Why don't people -aren't sure exactly why they -know his name.

I was, you -asked me, -!and I was, I feel like, I feel -!like I feel like my black card -!is about to get hella revoked.

-!Because I was like, I can't.

I -was like, I know this name.

-But why?

Okay, all right, -that's what I found out.

-Why exactly.

So I dig into -!Paul, who was for his time for -the new Negro movement, which -is what was happening before -the civil rights movement.

He -!was MLK, he was Malcolm X, and -he is, like, very -!intentionally and systemically -erased from history, along -with the movement, the new -Negro movement, and it's just -sort of replaced with, like -they just did the Harlem -Renaissance.

And so love the -art, and there's nothing else -!to see.

And so I really wanted -to talk about that process, -because we're watching it -happen today with the erasure -of history and all of these -things.

So that's why he made -!the list.

That's why I want to -!tell a story.

And his wife has -this extraordinary archive, -!and she was such an incredible -!archivist who had been largely -!forgotten, but who drove a lot -!of Paul's activism and also, I -mean, he was, he was in the -streets, -and his wife, he was in the -street.

Yes, his wife was in -the streets too.

Oh my gosh.

-They were renegotiating the -!common boundaries of marriage.

-I think the the accepted -boundaries of marriage and -relationships.

At that time, -she wrote all about in her -diary.

She intended for her -!diaries to be read.

It's wild.

-So I was like, okay, we can -get into some serious stuff, -and we can have a little bit -of fun too.

Thea will be -!playing the role of Essie, and -you will be playing the role -of lying, cheating.

Paul -Robeson, I am the reporter, -okay, okay, Paul, Paul, -essie's divorcing you because -you're cheating on her with a -white woman.

Is that true?

Tell us the white lady's name.

It's not much of a secret.

We were seen together much of the time.

I can't -!mention her name now, it's not -the actress who played -opposite and dine Othello.

-Don't look over there.

-!I feel like most writers would -have this tendency of like, -you should just come with me -!on the ride and trust that, in -45 minutes, I'll tell you why -we're on this ride.

And it's like -!no, no, you got to kind of let -!people know why they're taking -the ride.

I know.

I know.

-So there's a lot that to -change at the top, which you -!all were, so that's the reason -!for a table read.

Is like, you -all were, had all these notes -!and and it was like, at first, -!when I first left, I was like, -well, they just don't get it, -and I don't have to.

This is -like, the constant process -where I'm.

It's like, the -!nobody gets what I'm trying to -do.

And then, like, the next -day, I, like, reread the notes, and I'm like, these are good notes.

-I was a little confused with -the first opening scene.

I know a little bit about Paul Robeson, but then -are we talking about his dad?

-And then, like, Wait, why are -we talking about his dad?

-Yeah, I just, I got a little -lost there.

I don't think -you need to explain Hitler as -!much.

What about fascism?

That -section explains fascism?

-I think you can do it with -Mussolini.

It's around this time, I feel like I'm getting a little -bit of a history lesson.

Who -!is that for?

Is that for black people, or is that for white people to be able to -catch up?

I'm kind of having -that experience just right -!there.

Wait, Yolanda is white.

-Yolanda's white.

Okay, I -think she should focus on her -health.

I don't think any of -this.

She needs to stop -talking about writing books -called negro.

It's just like -this is also sad to say, but -like, sometimes messiness, -gossiping, humor that is -crude, like crude humor like -these things, like, are for -white people, right?

They get -to have these things because -they aren't going to have any -societal downfall.

For, you -know, black folks, and for -black women like you and me, -like the posturing is a lot, -right, and and so I just wonder, like, Do you ever feel like you're kind of crossing that line today -with your show?

You know, I -thought a lot about being a -black woman host, and I -usually work for like, these -incredibly accomplished, -powerful black women, and I'm -their showrunner, and the -pressure on them is so high, -and their presentation is so -!elite, and when we get to talk -one on one, it's like, it's the of course, you can let your guard down, but then they're going to be -speaking to 10s of 1000s of -!people, and a lot of folks put -so much on them.

And I feel -like a lot of what I do is -!data driven, but I feel like a -lot of when people respond to -me best my work best, it's -when I'm in conversation with -!someone, and when I am being a -little bit less serious, like -I've done improv.

I love -theater.

I just like, like to -laugh a lot, and would prefer -!to be laughing than to be kind -of inspiring people with, -like, a beautiful I'm not a -poet.

I'm not I don't even -really know how to, like get -on stage and do that, like -black woman speech.

It's more -of it's gonna be silly.

So I -leaned into something I -thought I could do.

Well, I -will say, though, my kind of -!the truth is, I'm a little bit -afraid to, I don't want to -speak for the race.

And when -you do something like this, -!you're meant to, especially if -you're a black woman, and I -really don't want to.

And I -thought if I was being funny, -then maybe the pressure to -know exactly how we should -interpret these histories and -if they were right or wrong, -just the the pressures we put -on our own selves and our own -history to be like, well, it -was wrong because it didn't -fix everything.

Every story -!that I've presented, I believe -!in them and I love them, and I -take a long, long, long time -to be sure that I am honoring -the complexity of who they -were, and that's the point of -all the context and the -research into, okay, well, -what was happening in the -elections in that year, and -what was going on with the -Great Depression and the war -and all of these other things -that you can understand why a -!person May would have made the -decisions that they make.

I -just want to tell a story -about these people that I -think are giants and and and -!normal and more representative -!of who I will be when you look -at history 1000 years from -!now, which is like near human, -probably won't be a statue, -but there'll be a human.

Yes, -!she's she was among the number -that voted in the right way, -that went to the March, that -read the paper and that -contributed to hopefully a -better world.

That's all I -wanted to be.

-!Thanks so much for joining us.

-If you want to continue to be -a part of the homegoings -family, stay in -touch at homegoings.co and -subscribe to the homegoings -podcast wherever you listen, -take good care.