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Black.

Fund of Greater Cleveland, Inc.. Good afternoon and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, June 14th.

And I'm Abby Westbrook, the executive director of Collaborate Cleveland.

I am honored today to introduce today's forum and welcome our speaker, Dawn Hucklebridge, founding director of Paid Leave for All and also a Cleveland native.

At Collaborate in Cleveland, we envision a Cleveland that supports, amplifies and celebrates women.

And part of that vision includes a better future with paid family and medical leave.

Studies have shown that paid leave is an important workforce economic and health policy that allows employees to take time to care for a new child, a sick or dying loved one, or their own health and medical needs.

All of which are a fundamental part of being a human being.

Yet the United States is one of the only countries in the world that doesn't guarantee any form of paid leave.

While that came close to changing in 2021 and the federal government did pass emergency paid leave in 2020 during the height of COVID 19, Congress ultimately fell short by one vote from paid leave, becoming federal law.

Now, states, counties and cities are working to fill this significant gap, with more than 13 states and Washington, D.C., passing paid leave policies, as well as over 100 cities and many private employers, including our own city of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, who have both passed paid parental leave policies in the last year.

A big shout out to those in the room and listening who work to pass and implement this important policy into the many more who have been advocates advocating to extend this policy even further.

Every step in every win are important.

Even with these commendable and necessary efforts, 73% of people working in the United States do not have paid leave, and 76% of Ohio workers 4.4 million people are in jobs without the possibility of paid leave.

There is work to do, which is why we are thrilled to welcome Dawn for today's forum.

Don has served as the founding director of Paid Leave for all since 2019.

She has spent her career in gender policy, political organizing, communications and building early stage programs and campaigns.

Dawn most recently served as the communications director for Supermajority during its launch and as the senior director of the Women's Rights Initiative at American Bridge.

Dawn, thank you for your important work and for joining us today.

Moderating the conversation is Ahmed Abu Naama, chief financial officer at the city of Cleveland.

If you have a question for our speaker, you can text it to 3305415794.

That's 3305415794.

And City Club staff will try to work it into the second half of the program.

Members and Friends of the City Club please join me in welcoming Dawn and Chief Abu Naama.

Great.

Well, good afternoon, everyone.

It's really wonderful to be here with my longtime friend Dawn and all of you.

A little more formal of a setting than my last city club engagement at the Happy Dog.

And I think, you know, sort of justified, given the topic that we were discussing last time we were talking about the city's budget.

I was waiting for my hot dog.

Yeah, well.

We can order one in next time, so you know what?

We're we're going to have a conversation here.

I hope to sort of be very light in the touch.

So you can hear from Dawn, who is really the one that we're all here to talk to, chat with and listen to.

So to kick it off, just, Don, can you give us a sense of your background and kind of what brought you to this space professionally?

Sure.

And want to start, of course, by saying thank you.

It's such an honor.

It's obvious that I grew up in Cleveland, Cleveland Heights here with my parents.

It's an honor to be back home and to be applauding the progress the city has made.

But yes, I grew up here and I have spent my career working in many different ways in politics and policy, doing a lot of work to try to elect more young people, more people of color, more women to political office, because I believe that leads to more progressive and innovative policies as we're kind of celebrating here in Cleveland now.

But it's interesting, having worked a bit in paid leave, having studied it in grad school.

This is often the story you'll hear is that it wasn't until I became a mother that it really hit home that this is not just a nice to have policy, that this is urgent and that it is a profound failure, that our country has not yet passed it at the federal level.

And, you know, I was lucky, I have to say, I had a little bit of paid leave.

We were talking about this earlier.

I had to kind of scramble together all of my sick days of my vacation, and it still wasn't enough.

I was lucky that my parents were able to come and help, but I just kept thinking, if it's this hard for me, how too many people in this country survive at all.

And we know now the truth is that many of them do not.

The experience of being a working parent or caregiver in America today is impossibly and unnecessarily difficult.

So this is what we're hoping to change, as you heard, became really close at the federal level.

We were within a vote, a vote that we thought we had it at a point in 2021.

And we do plan to get this over the finish line.

But I also want to wish you a happy Father's Day.

I know I'm glad as a father as well and has twins, which, you know, and I think my baby, it was difficult.

I think about that.

So let's hear a little bit about you two.

Sure.

So three kids all under the age of four.

It's not that bad, guys.

It's not that bad.

Two boys and a girl.

The twins are boy, girl and I think similar.

It's probably a shared experience, right?

This sort of not really appreciating the importance of having the ability to take paid leave to care for your children, your family until you're presented with those circumstances.

And when our first our our oldest child was born, it was even stranger scenario.

It was September of 2020.

And so there was all kinds of weirdness happening in the world.

I was fortunate.

I was working for the federal government and I was working for an agency that had independent authority to set employee sort of employee benefits that didn't have to go through Congress.

So the and that's a Securities and Exchange Commission.

And so we had put in place a 12 week parental leave policy before the rest of the federal government did it.

And being able to do that, you know, in in that scenario and help take care of my son, not necessarily just help my wife, but just be a dad was really terrific.

And then fast forward over a few years and our twins are born this past January.

They're five months and about two weeks.

And, you know, similar situation.

My wife and I were fortunate to have employers that provide paid parental leave.

And so between the two of us, we've really been able to solve for a lot of the child care problems, which I think will get to some of those other issues that are in this family supportive sort of ecosystem.

Like a lot of people, it's been really difficult for us to find childcare when we needed it.

And so we've had to piece together kind of grandparents my time, my wife's time to make sure that we have someone watching these two children that can't do anything for themselves.

So I think while we're talking about paid leave, I think there's an important topic, at least that I learned as the city was going through our process was the sort of definitions to what, you know, what does paid leave mean in the work that you're doing?

And how does that impact your efforts to push the ball forward?

And it's important to start with this because I think there's often confusion, and I'll be honest, there's even confusion in Congre and it means a lot of different things broadly.

So, you know, there is paid sick days, which we don't have in this country either.

More than 30 million of us don't have a single paid sick day.

There's paid time off those paid vacation.

In my world, in my work, when I say paid leave, I mean paid family medical leave, which is simply the ability to have paid time off to care for yourself or a loved one in a serious health condition, including a new child, including an injury, cancer.

These things that every single one of us will go through, both in our families and our own lives.

And it's it seems quite common sense.

But what's remarkable is that is common sense in almost all of the world except the United States.

We are one of only seven countries that doesn't guarantee any form of paid leave.

And what this means, as Abby mentioned, is that only one in four of us have paid family leave through our work, and one in four women have gone back to work within two weeks of giving birth.

And how many of you have given birth?

But at two weeks, it's pretty ugly.

This means that every day in America, quite uniquely in America, many of us miss our own treatments.

I've heard stories of people having to take their parent off life support over the phone.

We miss the most important moments of our lives.

And what's so frustrating is it doesn't have to be this way.

And I will say to add some hope to the conversation is if, again, we were really close to getting this done federally, and we still can and will.

And what's interesting is that this is so much more than just a nice workplace benefit.

You know, the more you learn about pay benefits, it's transformational.

It is a tool for public health in terms of infant and maternal mortality, particularly for black women, which is unconscionable in the United States.

It's a tool for lowering depression rates, men and women alike.

It is a tool for economic growth broadly.

We know from research that if we pass paid leave with other care policies in the US, it would lead to.

And this is not exaggeration.

Millions of jobs, billions in wages and trillions and GDP.

And it's also a tool for racial and gender equity.

Paid leave can reduce pay gaps.

It can lead to gaps and security of retirement.

It will open up whole life opportunities and career trajectories.

And also it simply leads to a healthier, happier society.

And that benefits all of us.

So this is what we're fighting for and this is what's at stake.

So few things you said.

Raise a couple of questions, which I think will get us to the next topic of the city's experience with paid parental leave.

Is the role of the federal government in this and how, in the absence of any federal solution to this problem, impacts the ability of local governments to be able to solve it?

I think there are some things that as employers, local governments can do.

But it strikes me that there will always be a gap in what's available unless the federal government steps up and sort of fill in mandates, certain minimum thresholds that apply to everybody.

Right.

And I think, you know, oftentimes people think this should just be this is a private you know, this is a family issue, but it's not or this is a private sector issue.

And if the private sector was going to solve it, it would have been solved already.

But, yes, but what's heartening right now is to see states and cities stepping up to fill this gap.

And I want to hear all about Cleveland story.

But to your point, there are places where this will never happen.

There are states will never pass their employers who will never do the right thing.

So we do need a federal guarantee so that this is truly universal and when it's truly universal, I will add it does benefit all of us in the long run.

And just a quick to add to the economic chaos.

It when you look at states and companies that have this, it is always a positive return on investment.

It leads to more productivity, higher performance, profitability.

You retain talent and workers.

It is a win win for all of us.

But I'm excited to hear more.

I mean, I've heard around the edges from from Abby and and others about what happened in Cleveland.

But I would love for you to share that with everyone.

Absolutely.

So, you know, I cannot what I want to start with is acknowledging all of the folks at City Hall and outside of city hall that helped push us in this direction.

Right.

I'm new.

I'm a new guy.

I got here in February of 2022.

These conversations have been happening inside of City Hall much longer before I got there.

And so whether that's on the city council side with in particular led by Councilman Life and Councilwoman House Jones Council staff, couple of whom are sitting in the back there.

I won't embarrass.

I won't I won't call them out.

But they you know, they did a lot of work legislatively to ensure that the administration and council are on the same page and that the approach worked sort of operationally and from a policy objectives view.

And then City Hall staff, we got one of my colleagues sitting here at table ten, but there were a whole host of folks on the administration side who really helped craft this and get it to the spot that it that it was ready for legislative approval and then implementation.

Where we landed was sort of from a directional perspective.

We wanted to set kind of an industry leading at least in the state parental leave policy as a way to achieve all of the things that Don mentioned.

Right.

Workforce retention, attraction and just being a good employer.

Right.

Meeting people where they are and acknowledging that when you have a kid in particular, there's, you know, you're the only person or you and your partner are the only people really responsible for that new human.

And so we have to do something to enable those folks to support their kids.

And the contours of our policy or, you know, sort of simple on one hand is 20 hours of prenatal care for both the mother and father to just take time off for doctor's appointments.

As anyone who's had a kid knows, there are a lot of doctor's appointments that you have to attend, especially when you have twins coming and then 12 weeks of fully paid leave after the fact.

A couple of items in that that really didn't they felt like no brainers to me and didn't seem controversial.

But as I've learned, are maybe unique among all of the employers in town when you're on that parental leave, you accrue your vacation and sick leave as if you're at the office.

So it's not like there's any penalty for being away on this leave versus some other leave.

We also sort of have applied it as broadly as possible.

So, you know, there's always going to be an effective date of legislation and there's always going to be people who are on one side or the other of that effective date.

And the approach we took was that I think it was effective sometime in September last year.

If your child was born before the effective date, you could still take the leave until your child is one year old.

So you have until the first birthday to use the 12 weeks.

And so that was under just sort of our legal standards as as flexible as we could get.

But it was really important that we provide that flexibility.

So even if your kid was nine months and or 11 months and two weeks old when it became effective, you could still take those final two weeks if you wanted.

And so and I think it's been great.

We I was hoping to have some more up to date data for you all.

But I don't know if you've read the paper or watched the news.

We've had some things going on with our technology at City Hall, so that was a little difficult to pull.

But as of about a month ago, if you look at the just the the dollar value of the hours that employees have taken parental leave, we were at about $1,000,000.

And so, you know, one of the big questions that we got from a lot of people was, what's the cost of this going to be?

And frankly, it's really hard to measure the cost.

And, you know, especially when you have a white, predominantly or not plurality, white collar workforce, it's not like when I'm out of the office, there's a temp that's brought in or someone's working overtime so that it's hard to quantify that cost.

But we're seeing a lot of people take it interestingly, and I think it's because of the composition of our workforce.

A lot of dads are taking it and it's the uptake has been much more significant than what we projected.

And I think largely it's because it's paid.

So we were using historic FMLA data to help project out what we thought the uptake would be, and the average per year before the policy went into effect was about 106 employees taking FMLA leave to care for a child after birth.

We are way, you know, we're talking you know, we're since September, we're talking about 600 people.

So it's been a really great thing that a lot of employees have been able to use.

Anita And it's interesting you talk about the dads because it's Father's Day to have to remind everyone that dads need it to for themselves, for the children, for their own parents.

And evidence shows that when fathers take it for new children, it benefits the whole family, changes the gender dynamics in the family, better outcomes for the child, obviously, and lower depression rates and men and fathers as well.

It has allowed me to be the chief bottle cleaner in our house.

So that is my wife is very happy about that.

It's a bad job.

The bra should get stuck.

Yeah, yeah.

There's there's a lot of them.

So jokes aside, we spent a little bit talking about the federal policy a moment ago.

And I do want to come back to that, because I think the role of federal policymaking is so critical to not just paid leave, but just sort of the ecosystem of services, accommodations that parents, families need to just exist in this world.

I've got a slide, you guys can't see it.

But as part of some other work that I'm doing where we're spending a lot of time thinking about the sort of wage needs in the particular area on the east side of the city.

And we're really trying to understand the benefits, Cliff, as we as I assume folks are familiar with the benefits, Cliff, but it's kind of as wages go up, you lose benefits and the net result of your wages increasing is oftentimes negative.

And so the rational choice is to not take that promotion or take that job, but instead to continue getting the assistance that you're getting, which is an unfortunate circumstance that people are faced with.

And as we're trying to attract employers to the city, we're we're we're trying to focus on the kinds of employers that will pay wages that at least mute as much as possible.

That benefits cliff.

And on this in this particular neighborhood, you're looking at wages in excess of $30 an hour to actually survive the benefits cliff, which if you think about it's pretty significant.

So how how what kind of work are you doing or others doing in the federal space to sort of acknowledge this really kind of perverse scenario that folks are faced with and how can we get past it?

And where does paid leave fit?

Well, I think that, again, this goes back to everything, needing to have some universality.

There needs to be some floor that nobody a safety net that nobody can slip through.

You know, you and I were talking about child care.

You know, this is living wages, child care.

There are simple things.

But most of the, you know, wealthy nations in this country just take for granted that we do not have we have basically none of them.

And what's interesting, too, when you think about the progress that our country has or has not made, thinking about even paid leave is progress over the last couple of years.

And when it had a big jump ahead, looking at history, things of child care, it's usually when people see them as being fundamentally economic that these are about economic survival.

These aren't just I like to say these aren't just soft issues.

These aren't social issues.

These aren't nice to have.

These are economic imperatives.

During COVID, there were many iterations of a big legislative package I'm sure many of you followed.

At one point it was called Build Back Better than it was split into two the American Jobs Plan and the American Families Plan.

And it was interesting to watch what happened after that split, because in the end, in this build back better package, what was cut was the families plan.

The lot of the parts seen as disproportionately impacting women and families.

What economists have shown, though, is that if we had passed the families component, it would have actually produced twice as many jobs and better paying and longer lasting quality jobs.

So it's interesting, I think, how I think this shows a lot of the structural racism and sexism in our policymaking, in our thinking.

These are about family issues.

These are about women.

These are about parenthood.

They are feel good issues.

They're about our common humanity.

They are about the reasons we're alive and we're here.

They're also, again, solidly kitchen table issues.

And I think that's important to think about in an election year when, again, oftentimes there's like stops and starts about whether we're talking about these issues.

Are they considered jobs issues?

And I just want to remind everyone, these are jobs issues.

So can we talk about that a little bit more?

So as I understand, and I'm not I don't want to get political here, but I think the divisions are important as part of this conversation.

So as I understand it, whether you live in a red state or a blue state, or whether you vote red or blue, you might have children, you might have a spouse, you might have parents, you might have siblings.

And is there do you have a sense of why this issue resonate so differently depending on people's politics?

Well, it's interesting you ask that, because it doesn't, but it does in Washington, D.C.

So we do polling and research all the time.

And right now in battleground states, you know, these are not solidly blue or progressive.

These are battleground states.

Overall support is 85% of a federal public policy.

I think it was 76% of Republicans.

I mean, when you look at basically it's supermajorities of any way you slice and dice it, this is one of the most popular issues in the country and people get it.

It's passing.

Again, red states and blue cities all over the country.

Colorado passed the first ballot initiative and it won in Trump counties.

So it does often seem like it's politicized.

But what's interesting is I think it's our it's Congress that politicizes it and says that this you know, this is radical or it's impossible or, you know, this isn't a priority.

And they're wrong.

They're not listening to what actually can centrist constituents want and need.

And it's interesting also that this gets lost in times.

If you think about how priorities and a political agenda are made, you know, the process of polling to who controls the newsrooms, to who's controlling campaigns, who's telling candidates what to say on the trail?

Who is setting the political agenda once they're elected?

Who's been in power?

Basically, it's largely been older white men.

At each step, each stage of this.

So when you actually go into communities, go and talk to people, these are top of mind.

And this is what I will keep shouting from the rooftops until there is transformational change that again, these are totally whatever you want to call a bread and butter economic kitchen table.

I call it the whole house.

So, yes, it is it is wildly popular across political lines.

And so what's happening then in between voters who apparently are what, regardless of political stripe, are supportive of these kinds of family supportive policies?

Where's the disconnect between them and the politician?

Is it the business community?

Is it where who is sort of getting in there and in remediating between voters and elected officials in a way that is to the detriment of families across the country?

I mean, I think it does all come down to issues, move often based on the political power they have.

Right.

And sadly, in our country, that is largely fueled by money.

It is largely fueled by special interests.

So, you know, I will say paid leave is not an issue that has people say, who's the opponent?

Who's going to stand up and say, I'm against pay play or, you know, I want a mom and the baby to be nowhere near each other.

Like, you're not like the pro.

It's like the prime candidate.

Yeah, exactly.

But I think it does come down to a lot of just at the congressional level and others, of course, this disconnect between what's the role of government, what do we want to spend money on?

We don't have money for that.

Well, at the federal level, we find money for the things we want to.

Yes.

But I do think there are some wealthy people and some particular big business interests that have tried to stop progress.

I will add, because I think this is so important and often misunderstood.

Federal paid leave would be a small business support.

It would not be just an unfunded mandate on them to pay out of pocket for this.

It would be a program administered by the federal government.

So it's only lifting the burden off small business and it's helping them actually compete with the big corporations who can more easily offer this.

So yeah, it's complicated.

And are there, I think generationally, are there any differences between and among the generations that are now, I guess, of voting age?

I don't even know what's the youngest voting age generation now, like the gen million or something like that.

I don't know what they're called.

I don't know whatever they're called.

Larry.

Back to Gen Day, which is we'll make it up gen.

Okay.

How's that?

Are there any differences kind of generationally in the public's view of this, these issues?

Well, I will say again, it is when we no matter how we look at cut up polling, it is always widely supported.

But I do think there is something to where I started, which is that this becomes more urgent when it's suddenly in your life.

And so I think we have found I think there's been less support among baby boomers generation, and maybe they're a little removed from taking care of children.

But the truth is, you're going to want your kids to have that when you need it as well.

Every again, back to this point that every one of us wants and needs and should have this protection.

But yeah, I think it's when it suddenly doesn't seem as relevant to your own life, you're going to be less likely to make it a priority and to fight for it.

So I will say also interestingly, increasingly, people are doing both caregiving for parents and children and loved ones at the same time.

I'm sure some of you have heard the term The Sandwich Generation, where millennials were the ones who are going to carry this burden a lot and increasingly through the generations.

You know, there's going to be a point where a lot of our parents are going to need help while we're caring for kids.

And also, I think we all know, like families, not just parents and kids, you have all kinds of chosen family and loved ones, siblings, people who are going to need support.

So increasingly, I think people will realize, as with generational shifts, that this is going to become more and more of a crisis if we don't address it.

Great.

So one more question before we get to the audience.

Maybe uplifting a little bit.

So I know that there's a lot of work in front of you and all of us who care about these issues to do.

Are there any historic precedents here, even though they maybe haven't been so durable, but have there been moments other than in 2021 where we have seen the federal government take action and do the right thing with respect to families that we can learn from as we attempt to accomplish a more durable solution going forward?

Yeah, absolutely.

One thing that people don't often remember is that actually Congress passed a huge childcare package.

So this has been done before.

But what happened is Nixon vetoed it.

But when people say, you know, these are impossible political realities, they're not at all.

It can be done.

I mean, we passed recently the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act and now folks feel about that.

That was really transformational as well.

And then the thing I think is most interesting was that when COVID hit and March 2020, our country was scrambling because we don't have many of these things, these social safety nets.

We weren't prepared for crisis.

And I think thank God someone in Congress realized what it meant to be in a global pandemic and a country that was not prepared in these ways.

So one of the very first things that they did was passed the Families First Coronavirus Response Act.

And in it was our country's first emergency paid leave law.

It was crossed or was passed across party lines under the Trump administration, and it was very limited.

I'll say the administration did not do enough to implement it.

They did not do enough to advertise it.

It wasn't fully ever implemented or used.

But even so, and it's a little different than what we're talking about with family medical leave this was limited sick leave.

This was limited family leave, but it was something.

And research has shown, even as limited as it was, they believe it prevented more than 15,000 COVID cases each day.

It saved countless families, countless jobs.

They have yet to kind of calculate all of it.

But if you think about the tragedies that people were living behind closed doors in those days, the choice between are think about our essential workers who never had the choice to work from home, who still don't, who had to go in every day without paid leave, risking their health in their lives, choose between not paying their bills, paying rent or being home with a child who wasn't even in school, who couldn't access childcare.

I mean, this was a phenomenal crisis.

But the reality is it remains today.

People choose between their lives and their livelihoods every single day in this country, in the wealthiest country in the world.

And it's a failure.

And I want I hope that we fix and I to end on the happiness.

It's one we have shown that we can.

Here we go.

So I hope everyone will join the fights.

It's a fun one.

I really do.

Yeah.

So great.

Thank you.

Wonderful.

We're about to begin the audience Q&A for our live stream and radio audience.

Are those just joining?

I'm Dan Walter, chief executive here.

Today we're talking about how current paid family and medical leave laws can keep up with the needs of families and a 21st century economy.

Our guest is Dawn Huckle Bridge, founding director of Paid Leave for All.

And moderating our conversation is Ahmed Ahmed, AMA, chief executive officer and chief executive officer chief financial officer.

Out there bid but have some to say.

No to say that it says Chief Executive Officer I apologize.

Unless I know something.

That's Chief.

Financial Officer.

Chief Financial Officer at the city of Cleveland.

We welcome questions from all of you city club members, guests, students and those of you joining us via our live stream or our radio broadcast at 89.7 WKSU.

That's ideastream Public Media.

If you'd like to text a question, you can text it to 3305415794.

The number again is 3305415794 and our staff will work it into the program.

We have our first question, please.

Yes, this is a text question that I'll share with you that we've already received.

Could you share what paid leave looks like in the most progressive nations?

And what about the middling nations, somewhere between the most progressive and the U.S.?

I wish I brought notes to give you like the scientific answer, but I will say I think I want to say Estonia has the most paid, lowest paid maternity leave.

I want to say it as well over a year.

I'm so I think what I can say is that we are not just a little bit behind, we are worlds behind.

And so when we try to say that we can't afford to do this, it's absurd because the rest of the world has figured it out.

I'll also add we can't afford not to do it because every year families lose more than $22 billion a year in this country and wages.

So, yeah, I mean, I think ideally I can say it would be great if we were living in a country that had comprehensive, inclusive, paid leave for all meaning, for all forms of family caregiving, for our parents, for self medical.

And that had these simple things we're talking about like access to childcare that you could actually afford instead of being on a waiting list for a care center that costs more than college.

So yeah.

Hello.

Hello, Dominic Hobson.

My question is somewhat to part A so you talked about how you all underestimated the costs.

You know, I'm privileged to be in a position to lead a nonprofit that has been looking at this since I arrived a couple of years ago and exploring it.

So one is, is there better tools to estimate what that cost would be?

I think the second part is, is there any foundations or other organizations that you all aware of that will incentivize organizations to do this?

I think in a sense, almost like a pilot, right, matching some funding that would at least get you started so you can see what the cost is.

Because, of course, bringing it to a board, they're asking what is the cost look like?

And it's hard to estimate that.

So thank you.

So on the first part, I don't know it when I was at the SEC, I remember when I started, I asked someone in our agency's finance office kind of, why, why don't we have paid parental leave and what's it cost?

And they had no idea.

And I think the challenge is, especially in a white collar work environment, we just don't track people's time in that way, that it's the costs are kind of hidden when somebody is out of the office for any reason vacation, sick time, parental leave, whatever the reason might be.

You know, I think it would be safe to assume if you've had, say, ten people a year take parental leave when it's not a paid policy, it will go up when it is paid.

And that makes sense.

That's the purpose.

Right.

That's the whole point.

And there's kind of two dimensions that, you know, I think to this conversation, there's the moral side.

It's the answer's clear.

Yes, provide it.

There's the operational side.

And that is when you're when this is being left to the sort of the most nuclear level to solve the individual employers, that operational side becomes really real.

As part of the conversation.

And so I know that I've had conversations with folks who lead organizations who've said, I'd love to be able to do it.

The city is doing it, but we just can't operationally excuse me.

And so it's just it's a tough issue when you're thinking about it from that kind of day to day, getting our work done.

Dollars and cents to a specific organization while knowing that societally everyone benefits when this is done across the board.

I think the second part, which is about do we know of anyone incentivizing, using private employers to offer this?

I don't.

I just to say also not really my my lane, because I'm trying to just pass a federal policy rather than working piece by piece.

But there are a lot of people who are just trying to get in the meantime, it's important to try to get more employers to do the right thing.

So I don't know.

I don't have great answer for you, but I also think it's important that we not think of this as like we need to make this as a a employer practice in principle.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you that maybe that gets us further, but I think we need to make this something that is an investment that both employers understand they should be paying into and that government should as well.

I'll also add that if you look at the state model and there is also I don't want to get into the pay for too complex ways, but a lot of the models create a social insurance program, which is the employers make small contributions, the workers make small contributions.

Senator Gillibrand has often compared it to the cost of a cup of coffee.

And then this is something that is paid for and you own it is yours.

So there's a lot of great arguments for that and that, you know, there's different ways.

Does the employer pay the whole thing to be contributors, the federal government pay the whole thing, but whoever is doing it will get a return.

Is is the message I want to send people.

Hello, I'm Eliana Gorman with Amnesty Square.

It's.

I was wondering, how do you react when people bring up, like, grief?

Grief leave after a family member dies?

How do you argue with people who are saying that maybe somebody could take it when somebody doesn't pass just for a vacation?

Well.

A lot to say.

I'm so there are a lot of interesting new proposals for paid leave from if you have pregnancy loss leave, bereavement leave, all of these things.

And I think we're human beings and we should have rights to as many of them as possible.

I have not heard a lot of policy discussions around bereavement leave, but what I can say is there's often people believe that we'll just abuse paid leave, right.

That workers.

I think Senator Manchin, who was our one vote, who is out, said, I think maybe people just use it to go hunting or, you know, maybe they'll be people think a lot of things.

The truth is there's really no evidence of abuse or fraud.

In fact, people find it's often underutilized, not taken advantage of.

So I would just say in general, I do know that from the data that there there is not at all widespread abuse of paid leave policies.

Good afternoon.

Hi.

Chichi in camera, I own a nonprofit think tank that focuses on the lived experiences of black women.

And I have a quick question.

Part of this issue really deals with coalition building and communications.

And I wanted to ask you both, how can coalition building among advocates for paid leave, racial and gender equity, reproductive rights, how can we actually build a coalition that has the same talking points, the same statistics, so that we're speaking with the same language?

I love that question because I actually sort of put it in my opening, which is I didn't say weren't paid leave role actually is we call ourselves a campaign that was a deliberate choice because we had a goal and we wanted a short term win.

But we are a coalition.

We now represent more than 30 national organizations.

And when we were launched, even before I was hired to launch it, the groups at the table were very thoughtful about We need everyone in this room that we can think of.

We need every stakeholder we need to think about.

Certainly center the people who are disproportionately impacted, who need this policy most.

We need to think about health.

We need to think about the small business voice.

We need to think about all of these things.

And we're actually we have had reproductive health groups and since beginning.

But I'm actually we're expanding that right now in this moment to create more solidarity, more coordination.

So you're you're brilliant.

You just lifted up our campaign plan, which is that to win, you need to create large coalitions.

You need to be working together, not duplicating efforts.

You need to be communicating transparently.

And that's what paid leave for all of us.

Actually started to do.

And I think that is largely based off successful models at the state level as well.

And another winning and obviously movements federally, but You're exactly right.

And that's what it takes to win.

Yeah.

Agreed.

I'd say in the cities experience it took a pretty broad coalition of folks to get our leave policy over the finish line.

Labor, outside advocacy organizations, the legislative branch.

The Executive branch, all kind of rowing, agreeing on a policy objective and rowing in the same direction.

And when we do that, regardless of the issue, we can actually get some stuff done.

Good afternoon.

I am thrilled that you're here.

I work in the aging space and have been in the aging space for over years.

And so I see every day the amount of adult children.

I'm sorry.

Men, primarily women.

Or calling about their parents or their in-laws.

And I think back to Rosalynn Carter and I had to pull this up, who had her own platform around caregiving.

And I use this a lot where she says there are only four kinds of people in the world, those who have been caregivers, those who are currently caregiver, those who will be caregivers, and those who will need a caregiver.

Mm hmm.

And so my question is, as we we talk about paid leave and a lot of times we do amplify more children.

I am asking, do you hear a lot of discussion about paid.

Leave for.

Caring for parents, the amount of women?

And I I'm going to put it on women who I have spoken to who have left their jobs, had to quit their jobs to care for an aging parent.

Is.

Overwhelming.

And they they didn't have the time off and they couldn't take leave from work.

To even put in place services.

For them or their loved.

Ones.

Right.

And I'm going to get this stat wrong.

I think it's maybe one in four workers leave the workforce before.

They plan to care for an aging or disabled loved one.

I love that quote you shared.

Thank you for that.

She's always been a hero of ours.

You're exactly right.

And to the point about coalition building, we've had caregiving at the center of our coalition since the beginning as well.

We work very closely with the Na and I think it just gets back to kind of this fundamental theme that every one of us is going to need to give or and or often at the same time give and receive care at the same time.

And we're not, you know, if we don't grapple with that soon as a country, it's not only going to become a growing crisis, we're going to become less competitive.

Our economy is going to suffer.

I mean, I think for a long time and I want to to your point about women, you know, these these holes or this, I won't even say holes in our safety net.

The access is of a safety that has been women.

You know, we have held families together with unbelievable strength and, you know, we say sometimes like like sticks and scotch tape and grow.

And like, you know, we talk about the double shift.

And then in COVID, it was a triple shifts.

I mean, there are people in this country doing more than triple shifts.

And I think that in some ways, that's what's caused or allowed.

The delay and action and federal policy is that women have kind of kept things going during the pandemic.

That's true.

It's always true, but it's a it's a house of cards and women can't do it all.

And one day if we don't fix that, it will collapse.

Good afternoon.

We have another text question.

It's exciting that the city passed paid parental leave.

Are there plans for expanding that to elder care?

A Yes.

So a couple of answers to to that question.

One, our current sick leave policy allows paid sick leave for any FMLA covered incident or circumstance.

So right now you have sick leave in your balance.

You as a city employee, you can take that leave to care for any covered relative under FMLA.

And that's a I don't know how many people have looked at that list of who's covered it.

FMLA is really broad.

I'm pretty sure I could take care of my brother in law.

I'm not going to.

Marc, don't get your hopes up.

But I think I could.

That said, you know, obviously some employees go through more acute episodes of that are really, really time demanding on them and can exceed their available sick leave balance.

Right now, the only other approach we have to would be we do have sick leave donations at City Hall.

So, you know, I have a whole lot I don't dissipate meeting it hopefully in the near term.

And so I can donate to folks who need it.

There's.

And then in the absence of that, there is unpaid leave, which is, of course, the worst of the outcomes.

And at a minimum, if you're a city employee and you take unpaid leave, you still remain covered by your health insurance, you still have benefits.

So it's not sort of all is lost, but it's certainly not great.

And so and in recognition of that whole coming out of the legislation that authorized a paid parental leave, there is a group in the at the city that is assessing kind of what an expanded kind of sick leave policy could look like for employees that could be used to meet those really acute episodes.

Right.

You've got a parent who's just in the hospital for months and you know you're an only kid or it doesn't matter if you're only kid.

That parent needs help and you're there to help your parent.

And so that is that's kind of the next iteration of what we're working on.

The parental leave seemed a simpler and more urgent to be candid from from our side.

And that's kind of why it was prioritized.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't more to come.

This is another text question.

So sure.

Now, you stated that paid leave creates jobs.

Would you please connect the dots and explain how that happens?

So if I actually when I was talking about it was the millions of jobs was within care broadly.

So what we wanted to do, we were part of this thing called care count way and a larger coalition which is trying to pass paid leave, child care, aging and disability care at the federal level.

So all of these things just keep more people in the workforce and it creates more revenue.

It creates profitability, which creates more jobs.

Also, there's a bigger conversation about, you know, there's family caregivers, there's employed, you know, in the formal labor force caregivers.

And then there's also paid caregivers.

So this is we call it the care economy.

I mean, that's an industry that needs federal investment.

But if you think about it, more people working in the formal economy, more people getting paid, more people doing well, more businesses thriving.

And it's kind of common sense.

Healthier workers do more work, create better businesses, better practices, which leads to more revenue, which, you know, on and on and on.

So these are all economic drivers and spur the short answer.

Another tax question, it seems people want to tax them in today.

How many days of paid medical leave for all do you advocate for and if I'm someone who never uses paid medical leave, is it fair for my tax dollars to pay for those who do?

Well, I'd say should you pay for 911, should you pay for roads?

Should you pay for schools even if you're don't have kids in school?

I mean, I think.

Yes, I think that's part of being a citizen.

I think it's part of what contributes to a thriving society.

And I think, again, we all benefit when we pay into these things.

It's not like there's no return for the for the whole.

And I think so, too.

The answer about how many days, I mean, so we say a standard is generally been 12 weeks.

There's a lot of research that suggests people need more of, particularly after giving birth in sort of new children's situations.

To me, during the build back better negotiations, it came down to four weeks and there were some people who I think thought we shouldn't accept that.

And my response was, people say that to the person with zero days right now, now look, look the new mom in the air and say, I'm not going to give you four weeks.

So we are fighting for as much as we can get.

But I think 12 weeks has often been sort of like the standard and that's what's in the bill right now federally.

Another text question What is your biggest obstacle or fear for paid leave for all.

This lets you into my my my anxiety is at night.

And we only have a few more minutes, all right?

Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, and I do I really do want to end on a positive note.

I don't how much time we left, because there is a lot to be helpful for and something that my friend April Verrett is the new president of SEIU always says is you can't talk about this issue and not feel hopeful because it's fundamentally what family care.

That's what it's about, is about hope.

I do worry a lot about.

So I think we're kind of at a tipping point in this country for our democracy, for what we're investing in are not investing in.

And I think that if if we don't address these problems soon, you know, I just think things could get a lot worse.

I want to believe that we are not just a country that is passing things based on who has the most money to put in your pocket.

You know, I would like to believe that we have a functioning democracy still, that we can make hard things happen.

And I do believe it.

But there is a lot there's a lot at stake with the elections right now.

There's a lot at stake in terms of there are a lot of problems to address, a lot of different issues competing for whatever funding and revenue we may have.

And I want us to get it all done.

Yeah, I think I think I do I do worry about this.

A lot of I think we all do.

Right.

And we're all losing sleep about what's happening in the big picture.

But based on my work, I also do have a lot of hope and I just remind people that we were one vote away and we've come really close.

And I do believe that we will get it done.

And I'll I'll offer just one last bit of hope.

You know, remember, we are City of Cleveland, despite all the progress we're making, is the second poorest large city in the United States.

We got it done.

And it was the result of real leadership by a lot of people who really committed to this as something that mattered.

And we did it.

And that's, I think, what it takes.

And that's the work that Dawn and her colleagues across the country are are pushing.

And with their help, we'll get there.

And I will.

Addition to to me and my colleagues, all of the colleagues here and the people at the, you know, the local level who are who are actually winning.

I will say this over there, they have a better track record than we do.

So give a lot of a lot of credit to them.

So thank you.

Thank you very much.

Don Huck Bridge and Ahmet Ivanova.

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Next week on Friday, June 21st, Jeff Führer of former Fed researcher will be with us to discuss his new book, The Myth That Made US How False Beliefs About Racism and Meritocracy Broke Our Economy and How to fix it.

So there's solutions to also depends on a functioning democracy.

And so we're going to continue to endorse democracy functioning here at the City Club.

The book explores the link between widely held and false narratives about poverty, race and poor outcomes for many in our economy.

There's a ton more stuff coming up.

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That brings us to the end of our program today.

Thank you all so much, Don and Ahmed.

Thank you so much.

Have a wonderful weekend.

This form's adjourned.

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