Welcome to Brazos Matters.

I'm student content contributor Gracie Dolan.

I've been working this semester on Brazos Matters with Jay, and you may have seen me a few times and throughout my time here, I've gotten to do the behind the scenes research on the topics and our guests, but one's really stuck with me throughout the semester, and that was my research on the prison entrepreneurship Program and the Empowering Women Out of Prison Program.

These are two Texas based rehabilitation programs that help to give their participants the tools to grow during their time in prison and equip them with the tools needed for a successful reintegration to society.

So joining us today, we have the executive director of Empowering Women Out of Prison, Pam Thomure Yeah, and a longtime friend of Brazos Matter, Cindy Billington, who is a dedicated volunteer to both programs.

Thank you guys so much for joining us.

Pam, Cindy we'll get started.

I'll start from the beginning.

Pam, What are the pep and what programs and how did you get involved with them?

So PEP Prison Entrepreneurship Program has been in existence for about 20 years now out of the Houston area.

They operate out of two prisons and really they decided to offer entrepreneurship education for men so that when they left prison they would have a business plan in hand and they were in business.

I want to say probably 15 years when people kept asking, It's great what you're doing for the guys, but what are you doing for the ladies who are incarcerated?

And so from that, Bert Smith, who was CEO of PEP at the time, he spun off from that organization and he founded Empowering Women Out of Prison.

He brought three volunteers with him who had been really long time pep volunteers.

And so we had an assistance agreement with them that became a very separate organization.

And so our curriculum, everything that we do is similar to PEP, but we offer very gender specific skill sets and training for the ladies because it really is different about how they would form their own businesses, etc.. So that's really how we came to be.

We opened our doors March 2nd of 2020, which was a little bit of a challenge because two weeks later we were locked out of prison for 14 months, but it gave us a chance to really hone in on that curriculum and find ways to help women.

Yeah, I bet.

How did you get started with the program?

Well, you know, I really feel like it was a call from the Lord.

I was laying on the couch recuperating from knee surgery, and I was just flipping through and thinking, I want to do something different.

And I came across this and I had own my own business.

I had worked for nonprofits all my career except for this stint for eight years when it owned my business and then sold it.

I really wanted to get back into the nonprofit space and I felt like I had something that I could give back.

Yeah, absolutely.

Cindy, I'll move on to you.

You could have chosen anywhere to volunteer your time.

Why did you choose these programs?

Well, I've been a volunteer with the PEP program for 20 years now, so almost right out of their gate.

And when they began, they started at the Hamilton Unit here in Bryan.

And I was with the business school before retiring in 2023, and they were asking people if they wanted to go.

I thought that just sounded too cool.

So I went in the first time and I could not believe how the Lord spoke to my soul just from the very moment I walked through the doors and just seeing him beautifully me move.

And then when I heard about the women's program, I just couldn't wait to get involved in that too.

I bet.

I bet.

Pam, I'll come back to you.

So the Empowering Women Out of Prison program evolved from the pep program.

What you said, how did they mold kind of the blueprint that they took from the men's side versus the women's side to make it more effective to women?

So what are kind of the differences between the two?

Sure.

So one of the funny things is the guys really like to have what they call sweet names.

They take their names, and each one of the guys in the program gives someone a sweet name, which is kind of a feminine name.

The ladies aren't too big about that.

They don't want to do that.

You know, women are very emotionally driven, and so the ladies are really about how they can best support one another in a way that relates to having children.

Most of our women and our mothers, we have about 89 out of 100 each year that are mothers or grandmothers.

And so we wanted to be specific about during our leadership academy, which is the first three months of our year with them, we teach things like Brené Brown's Dare to lead, and we talk about how you become transparent.

You become very vulnerable with your story so that when you come out, you're not hiding anything.

And so we offer parenting classes.

We offer ways to be a single mom in your household, because most of the time, unfortunately, when someone is incarcerated, typically those relationships go away.

And so we wanted to be very specific in that way.

We also wanted to engage women entrepreneurs to help teach the ladies.

So we were very focused on that as well.

Awesome.

Both the men and women side I found in my research offer so much support while they're in the program and post-release support like transitional housing, transportation and second chance employment.

How big of a role would you say that support like this plays in a participant's reintegration to society post-release?

I would tell you that it's the most important element.

We can teach them to write a business plan.

We can teach them how to go out and apply for a job.

Resume writing.

We do.

What's your purpose?

You know, in our first semester, it's all about what do you feel like your purpose is in life?

And so we talk to them about writing 100 Dreams.

And most people who come into our program say, I don't even have one dream.

I've been incarcerated for ten years.

I don't have one dream.

How would I have 100?

But that's where we start.

And so because of that, once they're released and what they call come out the gate, they have a check for $50 and the clothes on their back.

And so it's very hard as someone with a felony record to be able to really go out and do well.

It's important to us because we have reentry programs on the outside.

So the first 90 days is very intense case management.

And what we do is we help them to create a plan in prison so they already know what the plan is when they come out.

It's super important that safe housing, I mean, that's really a key element because if you don't feel safe where you are, it's very hard to go get a job and to really have your own life and you fall back into the old patterns.

So we talk a lot about not doing that.

So we make sure that they can go to one of our transitional housing partners.

We hope, like PEP, we hope to have transitional houses in the future.

But right now we have partners across the state.

A lot of our women actually come to Bryan College Station, two different places that we've partnered with here.

And so it's it's really key because if you can go and have a bed to sleep in, you know, you're safe.

You have food, which we buy them a bill of groceries when they come out.

If they had food insecurity, we connect them with food banks across the state of Texas.

And then once they have that, it's very much more reasonable that they can get on a computer, apply for jobs, really go find a job within the first 90 days, and then start being successful by making a living in an earnest manner.

Yeah, absolutely.

Does the women's side where where is the women's side based out of is it only in one prison or so?

Right now we are in the Coleman unit and Lockhart, which is about 35 miles southeast of Austin.

But we are looking at expanding.

We've actually had many other states contact us about the possibility of coming into different states.

We have a recidivism rate right now of 0% in our fifth year, and the state rate runs somewhere around 26% that someone would come back into prison within the first three years.

And I think nationally it's somewhere around 47% right now.

And really having 0% says this is working.

Yeah.

And so we hope to be a more locations than just that one.

I can imagine they'd want you everywhere.

That's great.

Cindy, back to you.

What role do volunteers such as yourself play in these programs?

How how important are you?

I'm sure, to the to the whole process.

I definitely would say that it's from, you know, from A to Z. So everything from and I'm just going to tell, you know, with both programs from writing encouragement letters when they're first accepted and I go into the women's unit and talk about mindsets and, you know, how do you manage your mindset?

How do you lead your thoughts and your emotions from just from a business plan advice or from going in and sitting down with both the men and the women when they're first starting and just listening to them, and then we give them feedback on their pitches, on their business plan ideas.

And then the big one is, of course, the business plan competition that happens right before graduation for both programs.

And rece- not recently, but in the last few years, I've started working with the both programs as they are after they've been released.

So in their reentry programs, so volunteers can help across the board, that's great.

If you're just now tuning in, I'm student content contributor Gracie Dolan and you're listening to Brazos Matters.

Our guests today are Pam Thomure are with Empowering Women Out of Prison Program and Cindy Billington, a volunteer for both the Empowering Women Out of Prison Program and the Prison Entrepreneurship Program.

We are talking about the impacts of these programs and how they help their participants come back into society once they've been released.

I'll go back to you, Cindy, again.

Do you have any specific stories about transformations that you've witnessed that you could kind of use to show us the impact of what's going on with these programs in a more tangible way?

I'm sure you've worked with hundreds of people.

You've said you've been doing this for 20 years now, so I'm sure you've worked with hundreds of people.

Do you have any specific stories that you'd like to share?

So many.

So a few highlights that come to mind.

So with the Prison Entrepreneurship Program, I had the opportunity to attend an event this past week where graduates who have already started their own businesses are really looking to grow.

And so just listening to their stories on how they are true entrepreneurs who are leading not just their industries and their competitors, but also all of their brothers who are coming out of incarceration.

So it's making such a huge difference.

Seeing so many of the gentlemen become fathers, become husbands, becoming leaders in their communities, in their churches, it is just beautiful to see.

And there's just example upon example on the women's side now that'll just make you cry.

It always makes me cry and I'm a crier.

So there is one woman in particular.

I had the opportunity of being her business plan advisor when she was in the program, and upon graduation and release she obtained employment very quickly and she's had three promotions.

my goodness.

She's reconnected with her children.

She's spending one on one time with her children.

She's in her own apartment now.

We had another woman who I was just sharing with Pam.

We were talking and she is graduating from college.

that's great.

So we have women in the program who are just like Pam said, they didn't just learn to dream again.

They're now living out their dreams and the number one dream is that mother child connection that happens.

Yeah, that's great.

Pam, do you have any any tangible stories that have been your favorite over your time?

So, so many.

But Gracie, I think one of the things I really want to want to say is, you know, Cindy's been terrific about coming in and helping us, but that really is the secret sauce to our success is those volunteers.

Because if you think about someone who's been incarcerated for multiple years and has had no one come to visit them and then hear a volunteer shows up and they pour into you and they give a day of their time.

Most of our our volunteers are executive leaders, business owners.

They give a day of their time to come in and just mentor and coach these women.

And so, yes, there are many stories that are success for us.

And and we have right now after after four years of graduating, we're now in our fifth class.

Typically, we would have 1200 women apply for 100 seats.

So there's a lot of women out there.

But I would tell you that they we have about maybe 16 right now that have started their businesses.

Some are side hustles.

That's great while they're getting more money to really roll it out.

But one of the things that I have seen, I can't give you one story in particular because there are just too many.

But what I see is that time and time and time again, the women who graduate from our program are reuniting with their families and reuniting with their friends.

And yes, there is remorse for whatever crime they've committed, but they've learned to go back and really forgive, you know, themselves and ask forgiveness of others.

And so I think for me, that's one of the best things that happens, is we don't expect everybody to start a business, but we do hope that everyone can go back to their communities, give back in a positive manner, and really make a difference.

Yeah, that's that is just so wonderful.

So, Pam, we were talking about the post-release support.

There are tons of rewards is what I would call them, baked into the program, like a formal graduation that I saw family is encouraged to attend in, in program counseling.

I read something about a new outfit upon release.

I don't know if that's true or not.

I read something about that and I'm sure so many other things that we don't see from the outside.

What kind of impact do these rewards baked into the program have, like as a push on the participants as they go through the program?

So if you can imagine that for two to 10 to 20 years, if you've been incarcerated during that timeframe, that someone tells you when to eat, when to sleep, when to shower, when to talk, when to move, when to get up, what to do every single day we try to take a number.

That is what they are assigned in prison and really give them a sense of themselves back and so, you know, the clothing, a new outfit to come out the gate in your family sees you for the first time when you're released.

It's powerful because you have confidence in yourself.

You've learned all these skills, but yet you know that new outfit, especially for us ladies, we really makes us feel even better.

And so it's those things that really help us to just being able to even a haircut, even a gift bag.

So we have churches involved that do release bags, and in those release bags, it can be as simple as a towel, hygiene products, a Bible, a journal.

And just those things make such a difference to the ladies.

And it's more about someone caring than it is about the items themselves.

Yeah.

Hey, look good.

Do good, feel good.

Yeah, it doesn't.

You've.

You've got to go right back to the baseline.

Yeah.

So I'll come back to you, Miss Cindy.

In terms of reintegration, what kind of a role does that community play or community members play in terms of their post-release success?

Well, both programs, they have opportunities for people just to either get on a Zoom call, and I've had the opportunity to even personally meet with some of the ladies.

And, you know, like what Pam said is many of them have been so disconnected from their loved ones for so long, the word alone has taken on a meaning that most of us just don't understand and just someone to sit across a table with a cup of coffee and listen.

Just the body being there, it makes the biggest difference.

And one thing that I will say about volunteering for these programs is that it is not just a give, give, give, give, give.

I often times, if not every single time, say I received much more than I gave.

And it's just the opportunity to really look at what is the difference between convicted and condemned.

And too often we see these beautiful children of God who made committing crimes and they are convicted.

So just showing them and then realizing ourselves that being condemned is a much, much, much different different description.

Yeah.

my.

Pam.

For both programs, it seems there's a big push for outside community support, like becoming a second chance employer.

How critical of a role do these second chance employers have in the terms of success with the program?

Is that are they coming out of the program and going right to their list of you guys?

The second chance employers, is it going kind of beyond their means and finding whatever they can find?

How does that kind of play a role in the whole process?

Really success.

We love to partner with employers who will give someone a second chance.

We're always looking for new partners to do that.

I think it's one of the things that we're trying to educate the community on because 78 million Americans have a criminal record, 78 million.

So do we really want to leave 78 million people on the sidelines when people are desperate to get people who come and work for them?

And so I think it's just educating people, because what we see is that women, especially coming out of prison, they will be very loyal employees.

And we're never going to ask a bank to hire someone who has a fraud or embezzlement charge.

But we certainly can help place people in the right spots when they come out.

They've learned to write a business plan.

They know all the elements of a business plan.

They know what good customer service is.

They know what good marketing is, they know what good financials look like.

And so for us, really and truly, if we can get employers to understand that and get behind it, we always like to say, come to prison.

Bring some of your staff, especially your H.R.

director, and meet with these ladies one on one.

We're actually starting to do interviews from inside.

So when they walk out, they'll have a job waiting on them.

And so that's really special for us.

But when you talk about community engagement, community support, I don't know if you know this crazy, but right now there is an Aggie Club Aggies for EWOP club that's been submitted.

And we're so super, super excited about that.

On September 19th, we're going to have Aggie Day again this year.

And so it's great to have alumni and students get involved.

You don't have to be an entrepreneur or a business owner.

The students can come and really help really see what it's like to be incarcerated.

I think it helps the students.

Cindy was talking about the impact on the volunteers.

When students come, they recognize that, hey, these people are normal and they could be your person next door, they could be your family member.

They made one mistake.

Yeah.

And so I think that community involvement and engagement is really, really critical to success.

Yeah, it's one of those things that you have to kind of see firsthand to understand.

I feel like how would can you explain to maybe some of our listeners, if they were interested, how would you how would somebody become a second chance employer?

Sure.

So all they have to do is reach out to us at ewoptx.org or pep.org.

And really that's an opportunity for them to just get more information.

We can give them all sorts of research and data about what it's like to hire someone who has a criminal record.

Because think about this, it might be as simple as they don't have a car yet.

When they come out, so they have to take a bus line.

It might be that they're going to be arriving at 8:10 instead of 8:00, but it's just learning how to work with people who don't really, you know, have the same things that other employees might have.

But to give them a chance is a wonderful thing to do and will even guarantee it on the front end.

There's a lot of people who will say, you know, we will guarantee that this will be the best employee you have in your system.

I would just say go to our website, put in the notes.

Second chance employer information would be more than happy to talk to people about this.

That's wonderful.

And to need to become a volunteer the same place.

Just go online to both programs and I also encourage you to follow them on social media, Instagram, Facebook and definitely LinkedIn as well, because you also get to see the testimonials, photos that will interest and excite you and say, Hey, I want to be a part of that.

Yeah, that's great.

I kind of wanted to ask you, Pam, what's a day look like for you in this position?

What are kind of what's kind of your role?

Obviously, executive Director is a big title, so I'm sure there's lots of things you have to go through, lots hoops you have to jump through every day, I'm sure.

But what's what's it look like for you day to day, week to week?

Well, the first three years it was a little bit scattered because there were only three of us, two, two full 2 hours, one part time.

But now we're fortunate to have a staff of six.

And so there is a director of programs who now goes in.

I was going in at least three days a week in the past.

And what that means is that we have classes four days a week every week inside, and there's 100 women in the classroom.

So I'll try to go in at least one day a week.

But most of the time I'm either meeting with business owners, I'm meeting with volunteers, I'm getting out and speaking Like today.

Dr.

Shannon Deer over at Mays is one of our big advocates, and I come over here and meet with them and we talk about curriculum and content.

And so it's just a lot of different varieties about what we do.

I work with the state of Texas because the Texas Department of Criminal Justice is the the overseer of all that we do.

And then right now, Management Training Corp runs the the actual unit that we're in.

So it's dealing with all of the the rules and regulations of that and they're just really helping people understand what we're doing.

I also help the staff with reentry.

We do have, you know, on a regular basis, we have at least 65 people on our caseload for the first 90 days, we average about anywhere from 50 to 75 coming out each year.

And so that's a lot of people who need our support.

Yeah.

How long does the program last?

Are there are there is it broken up into bits or is it kind of all one thing?

How's it how does it work?

So we have the ladies for about a year.

They start applying in September, October.

Like I said, we have 1200 applications.

It's a long process.

It's hard to get in and won't kid you and it may take you a year to get in.

If this is a family member listening to this that once one of their loved ones to get in, but typically they come to us by January of each year, they graduate in November.

The first three months is leadership Academy.

We have a lot of great leaders come in and teach classes.

And then the second semester is all about business plan writing and then that Shark Tank style competition, then graduation.

Once they graduate, they can apply to be a servant leader if they still have time on their sentence, which is wonderful because they can pay it forward to the next class.

And then we have alumni mentorship groups in prison.

For those who aren't servant leaders, maybe some are, but they still want to mentor those coming behind them when they come out.

We tell them this can be a relationship for life.

I mean, we really want to know you're being successful.

And so they do our reentry program.

They also have mental health counseling for the first 90 days just to reintegrate into society.

And then from there, it's really up to them.

They can be a part of our alumni.

We just did a retreat.

Cindy was there.

We went out to the H-E-B camp in Leakey and had a wonderful weekend.

And so they really become sisters and friends with one another.

And that's important for us.

That's so wonderful.

That's so great.

Cindy, what's a day look like for you when you go in to volunteer?

I'm sure obviously, as she said, it's different throughout the thing.

But men versus women even kind of what differences do you see?

Well, a day with the men is typically you go in and they make you dance.

you dance party.

You you dance with the men.

And in the women, when we go in, we give him a hug and they give us the best husbands.

Right?

So if you ever need a great hug, go to prison.

It truly is.

It will fill your soul.

So it's just an opportunity to where they have a scheduled agenda for both programs, but they really leave a lot of time for one on one conversations.

And Pam brought up the alumni and how they support each other and they are never alone again because these women, these men, they really do pour into each other for, you know, for forever.

Forever.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, that's great.

That's wonderful.

Well, is there anything else you could say to sell it to the people if they weren't already behind you?

I can't imagine how they wouldn't be.

But I mean, everything that you guys do is just so important.

But, I mean, if you're urging people to volunteer, urging people to become second chance, employers, you know, pitch it to them.

Gracie, I would tell you that when I go out and I speak to different groups and organizations, I always start with the question of, you know, what would it be like to be judged every day for the rest of your life for the worst decision you ever made?

And so I hope that people can start to see that we need to start rehabilitating people who are incarcerated, not just warehousing people.

And so really and truly get involved.

We would love for you to give us one day, and I promise you it will change your life.

Yeah, I imagine.

Cindy Well, I would say that if you want to be a part of the solution, get involved.

Yeah.

And you will be blessed in ways you just cannot imagine.

And it is true, You know, crimes are awful, but a felon does carry on top of you forever.

So just getting that re-assert assurance, the confidence and just the support that we are all sinners saved by grace and it's it's amazing what happens.

I mean, it will truly just it's transformational.

Truly.

That's wonderful.

Well, I'll be having some free time on my hands coming up here in the next few weeks.

Maybe you'll be seeing me around.

I'd love to come pay you guys a visit.

Thank you guys so much for joining us today.

I it means a lot that you guys are here to me.

I've been looking into this since February.

I saw I've been I've been doing my research since February.

So I'm really excited to finally have gotten the opportunity to have you guys here.

Pam and Cindy, thank you guys so much for joining me today.

Brazos Matters is a production of Aggieland's Public Radio, 90.9 KAMU FM, a member of Texas A&M University, Texas A&M University's Division of Community Engagement.

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I'm Grace Dolan student content contributor for the last time on Brazos Matters.

Thank you guys.

So much for watching and listening and thank you guys for being here with me today.