>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", THE PANDEMICS IMPACT ON WOMEN AND DIVERSE PEOPLE AS IT RELATES TO INCREASING HARASSMENT AT WORK; AND MAKING GLOBAL GENDER EQUALITY LESS ATTAINABLE; THEN, ASIAN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN: ALLIES FIGHTING DISCRIMINATION AND VIOLENCE.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, EQUALITY, HARASSMENT, AND ANTI-ASIAN DISCRIMINATION.

WORKING REMOTELY IS INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF GENDER AND RACIAL HARASSMENT, EXPERIENCED BY TECHNOLOGY WORKERS.

THAT, ACCORDING TO PROJECT INCLUDE, A GROUP THAT ADVOCATES FOR DIVERSITY IN THE TECH INDUSTRY.

THE SURVEY FOUND WOMEN OF COLOR ARE MOST LIKELY TO REPORT INCREASED HOSTILITY AND HARASSMENT.

WHAT IS TO BLAME?

RESEARCHERS SUGGEST PEOPLE WORKING LONGER HOURS, BLURRING THE LINES BETWEEN WORK AND HOME LIFE, AND MORE PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS TAKING PLACE.

ALSO THIS WEEK, THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM REPORTED IT WILL TAKE NEARLY 136 YEARS FOR WOMEN TO REACH GLOBAL GENDER EQUALITY.

THAT IS UP A FULL GENERATION FROM LAST YEAR'S ESTIMATE OF 100 YEARS.

THE FORUM USES ECONOMIC PARTICIPATION, OPPORTUNITY, EDUCATION, HEALTH AND POLITICAL EMPOWERMENT AS FACTORS TO MAKE ITS CALCULATIONS.

ICELAND WAS FOUND TO BE THE MOST GENDER EQUAL COUNTRY, AND THE U.S.

MOVED UP 23 SLOTS THIS YEAR.

WITH US TODAY ARE FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE DONNA EDWARDS, PATRICE ONWUKA OF INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S VOICES, AMANDA TERKEL OF WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR THE HUFFINGTON POST, AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST ANN STONE.

SO, DONNA EDWARDS, HOW COULD WOMEN'S GAINS HAVE BEEN SO ILLUSORY AS TO BE LOST IN ONE YEAR OF A PANDEMIC?

>> Donna: YOU KNOW, IT HAS BEEN FASCINATING.

I THINK MORE THAN 3 MILLION WOMEN HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS, THEIR INCOME NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE ECONOMY.

PART OF THAT IS THE PART OF THE ECONOMY THAT WOMEN PARTICIPATE IN, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, MUCH MORE VULNERABLE IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO, THAT'S WHY IT'S GOING TO BE SO IMPORTANT THAT GENDER EQUITY IS REALLY PART OF THE BIDEN AGENDA, FORWARD TO RECOVER THESE JOBS AND TO GAIN THEM AND SUSTAIN THEM.

>> Bonnie: WELL, I DON'T SEE HOW ANY ADMINISTRATION, EVEN THAT OF A WOMAN, COULD BE MORE GENDER REGRESSIVE THAN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

I MEAN, I THINK IS ACTUALLY GONE NOW SO FAR TO THE LEFT ON GENDER EQUITY THAT HE STATES TO ALIENATE SOME OF THE INDEPENDENTS HE MAY WANT TO LURE TO VOTE FOR HIM IF HE RUNS FOR REELECTION.

DO YOU AGREE OR NOT?

>> Donna: NO.

I MEAN, A LOT OF THOSE INDEPENDENTS, FRANKLY, OUR SUBURBAN WOMEN, WOMEN WHO LOST THEIR JOBS OR JOBS ARE VULNERABLE.

I THINK THIS IS A WIN-WIN FOR JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS BECAUSE WOMEN WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY AND THE QUESTION IS HOW.

THIS NEW INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN I THINK IS SO IMPORTANT TO ENGAGE WOMEN IN A PART OF THE ECONOMY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT FOR SO LONG.

THIS IS A WIN FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>> Bonnie: ANNE STONE, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Ann: I THINK YOU WILL FIND WOMEN GOING BACK INTO THE ECONOMY IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

A LOT OF THEM, ONCE THEY WENT BACK HOME BECAUSE OF SCHOOLS BEING CLOSED, THEY HAD OBLIGATIONS WITH CHILDREN, THEY FOUND IT EASIER TO WORK FROM HOME.

AND BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, WE KNOW THAT WOMEN-OWNED BUSINESSES WERE CONTRIBUTING TO A LARGE NUMBER OF NEW JOBS BEING CREATED, BUT THEY WERE DOING A LOT OF IT HOME-BASED.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE THAT HAPPEN AGAIN, AS THE NEED FOR SERVICES INCREASES.

WOMEN WILL FIND CREATIVE WAYS TO BE ABLE TO STAY AT HOME AND CREATE NEW JOBS.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

BUT A LOT OF THE WOMEN'S JOBS WHO WERE LOST AND WHY THE PANDEMIC HIT SO HEAVILY ON WOMEN WORKERS IS BECAUSE WOMEN ARE MAJORITY OF LOW-WAGE WORKERS.

SO THEY WERE WAITRESSING OR -- >> Ann: THAT IS PART OF IT.

>> Bonnie: -- BEING.

>> IN A WALMART, THAT SORT OF THING.

THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IS ALL ABOUT, GUESS WHAT, CONSTRUCTION JOBS.

SHOULD THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BE MAKING A HUGE EFFORT TO TRAIN WOMEN FOR SOME OF THOSE JOBS?

>> Ann: NOT ONLY SHOULD THEY DO THAT, BUT THERE WOMEN'S ASSOCIATIONS IN CONSTRUCTION AND BUILDING THAT SHOULD GET A LOT MORE WORK.

I HAVE SPOKEN IN FRONT OF THESE GROUPS ABOUT WOMEN'S HISTORY AND THEY ARE VERY ENERGETIC AND CREATIVE.

JOHN McKISSICK, WHO OWNS -- HER FAMILY OWNS THE OLDEST AFRICAN-AMERICAN CONSTRUCTION COMPANY THE COUNTRY, IS AN ADVISOR TO KAMALA HARRIS AND SHE ALSO WAS INVOLVED WITH WOMEN'S HISTORY MUSEUM, ALONG WITH ME.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, REACHING OUT TO PEOPLE LIKE THAT CAN HELP BRING OTHERS IN.

AGAIN, THEY ARE VERY STRONG ASSOCIATIONS FOR WOMEN IN CONSTRUCTION.

THEY NEED SUPPORT IT WILL BRING MORE PEOPLE IN.

THEY WILL HELP GUIDE THE ADMINISTRATION ON HOW TO TRAIN.

>> Bonnie: AMANDA TERKEL, PRINCIPAL, WELCOME BACK.>> Amanda: THANK YOU.

>> Bonnie: SECONDLY, YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO GET WOMEN WHO COME BACK INTO THE ECONOMY WANTING HIGHER PAYING JOBS THIS TIME?

>> Amanda: I WANTED TO COMMENT ON THE BIDEN INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN.

I MEAN, THE MAJORITY OF IT IS ABOUT ROADS AND BRIDGES AND WHAT WE TRADITIONALLY THINK OF AS TRADITIONAL CONSTRUCTION JOBS.

BUT NOT ALL OF IT IS.

IT'S ALSO SPENT ABOUT 400 BILLION TO CARE FOR ELDERLY AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.

AND THOSE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS SORT OF SERVICE CARE JOBS ARE ONES WHERE WOMEN ARE SORT OF THE DOMINANT FORCE.

AND THERE ARE ALREADY BECAUSE CRITICISMS OF SOME MORE MODERATE, SOME REPUBLICAN SAYING THESE SORTS OF THINGS DO NOT REALLY BELONG IN AN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

THEY ARE NOT TRADITIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND MAYBE THEY WILL NOT VOTE FOR IT.

BUT I THINK IF WE ARE INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN ADDITION TO THE TRADITIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND GETTING WOMEN MORE INVOLVED, THESE SORTS OF INVESTMENTS ARE NECESSARY.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

YOUR THOUGHTS, PATRICE.

>> Patrice: YOU KNOW, I WORRY ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS IN THE BIDEN PLAN, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE POTENTIALLY NEW REGULATIONS THAT WOULD MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO BE AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR.

THESE ARE PARTICULARLY JOBS, JOBS WORK-FROM-HOME JOBS, WORK FROM ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME JOBS THAT I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN, AS ANNE WAS REFERRING TO, HAVE FOUND THAT THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO STAY ATTACHED TO THE LABOR FORCE.

BUT THAT WOULD BE ERASED BECAUSE OF THIS JOBS PLAN.

THEY ALSO RECOGNIZE AND I THINK A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES DO AS WELL THAT IT IS A PRETTY BIG PRICE TAG, NUMBER ONE, WITH NOT TOO MANY DETAILS ON HOW IT WILL BE PAID .

AND THEN WHY NOT TAKE SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUAL BIG POLICY AREAS, LIKE HOW DO WE WORK ON CHILDCARE FOR CARING TYPES OF JOBS, AND SEPARATE THEM OUT AND HAVE SEPARATE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THOSE?

BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT GETTING WOMEN BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE AFTER THIS, WE ALSO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE A LOT OF WOMEN DO NOT RECOGNIZE -- KNOW THE CHOICES THEY HAVE AND THE MONETARY BENEFITS ATTACHED TO THEM.

EVEN IF THEY DO, MAYBE THEY MAKE THE CHOICE TO CHOOSE THOSE JOBS FOR FULFILLMENT OR FOR FLEXIBILITY, AND WE HAVE TO RESPECT THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

LET'S TRANSITION TO THE REPORT THAT CAME OUT ABOUT THE TECH INDUSTRY, WHICH WAS OF COURSE SPEARHEADED BY ELLEN POWELL.

SHE IS THE FAMOUS ONE WHO I BELIEVE WAS AT REDDIT AND THEN WAS IN SILICON VALLEY, VENTURE CAPITAL AND GOT FIRED AND SUED FOR DISCRIMINATION.

ONE OF THE THINGS HER FINDINGS SHOW IS THAT, BECAUSE OF WORKING FROM HOME, PEOPLE ARE NOT PRIVY TO AS MANY PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS OF -- THAT MAY INCLUDE SEXUAL HARASSMENT, SEXUALLY HARASSING STATEMENTS OR DISCRIMINATION, THAT BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE ON A ZOOM CALL, THAT IS THE ONLY CONTACT YOU HAVE WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES, BUT YOUR BOSS IS STILL TALKING TO THEM ON THE PHONE, LET'S SAY, MORE THAN TWO THE WOMEN.

HOW IN THE HECK DOES SOMEBODY MONITOR FOR THAT IN AN INCREASINGLY TECHNOLOGICALLY BASED ECONOMY?

WHOSE THOUGHTS?

AMANDA?

>> Amanda: SURE.

OBVIOUSLY, I MEAN, YOU DON'T WANT YOUR EMPLOYER SPYING ON YOUR WORK CONVERSATIONS, THOUGH THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THAT ON SOME PLATFORMS LIKE SLACK WHICH I FIND TROUBLESOME.

BUT I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

THINK OF IT, YOU KNOW, I AM CHATTING ONE-ON-ONE WITH PEOPLE EITHER ON THE PHONE, THROUGH SLACK, THROUGH EMAIL, THROUGH OTHER MESSAGING SERVICES.

IT IS LESS OF, YOU KNOW, GOING OVER TO SOMEONE'S DESK AND TALKING THEM AT A PLACE WHERE EVERYONE CAN SEE AND BE IN ONE OF THOSE CLASS MEETING ROOMS.

AND ONLY THAT, THE HOURS ARE LONGER.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I'M OFTEN WORKING DURING THE DAY, TAKING CARE OF MY KID IN THE EVENING AND SIGNING BACK ON SO I'M WORKING UNTIL MIDNIGHT.

THE DAY NEVER ENDS.

THE LINE BETWEEN YOUR WORK AND YOUR HOME LIFE IS COMPLETELY BLURRED, AND THAT CAN CREATE SOME ISSUES.

AND WHEN YOU ARE WORKING FROM HOME AND YOU FEEL LESS CONNECTED TO YOUR COWORKERS, THERE CAN BE QUESTIONS TOO.

WELL, DO I GO TO TO REPORT SOME OF THIS?

AM I JUST BEING -- AM I IMAGINING IT?

SHOULD I MAKE A FUSS?

YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE AS MANY RESOURCES AS YOU WOULD IN AN OFFICE PLACE.

>> Bonnie: BUT SOME OF WHAT THE REPORT SAID IS THAT TECHNOLOGY PROGRAMS NEED TO CATCH UP AND SHOW HOW -- HOW PEOPLE ARE INTERACTING WHEN THE WOMEN ARE NOT AROUND, THAT SORT OF THING.

IS THAT POSSIBLE?

DOES TECHNOLOGY MAKE THAT POSSIBLE?

>> IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTION THAT, BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OCCURS IS THAT WE ALL KNOW THAT THESE SOCIAL PLATFORMS ACTUALLY GIVE PEOPLE PERMISSION TO SPEAK AND TO ACT IN A WAY THAT THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY DO WHEN THEY ARE ONE-ON-ONE OR IN HUMAN INTERACTION IN AN OFFICE PLACE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS MAYBE SURPRISING IS THAT THE PLATFORMS HAVE NOT CAPTURED THE ABILITY TO HOLD ONTO THOSE PRIVATE CHATS THAT ARE HAPPENING.

AND SO, IF SOMEBODY IS ACTING INAPPROPRIATELY IN A PRIVATE CHAT, YOU HAVE NO WAY OF SHOWING THAT -- EVEN IF YOU HAVE A BOSS WHO IS RECEPTIVE, YOU HAVE NO WAY OF SHOWING THAT TO HIM OR HER.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE THESE PLATFORMS, THAT TECHNOLOGY CAPABILITY IS THERE AND THEY NEED TO IMPLEMENT IT [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: GO AHEAD.

>> I WOULD PUSH BACK TO SAY THAT OPENS UP -- I MEAN, YOU ACTUALLY DO.

FOR EXAMPLE AND A CHAT, YOU CAN SCREENSHOT THE CHATS AND GO BACK AND SAVE THOSE IF YOU REALLY FEEL THAT THE CONVERSATION IS AN APPROPRIATE.

THAT DOES NOT WORK WHEN YOU'RE ON A TELEPHONE CALL.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DO THEN.

BUT I DO THINK IT OPENS UP TO PRIVACY ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ON THIS PANEL AS WELL.

SO WHILE I RESPECT THE DESIRE TO SEE TECH PLATFORMS BE ABLE TO ALLOW YOU TO CAPTURE CONVERSATIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I MEAN, THAT CAN OPEN UP THE DOOR TO OTHER ISSUES FROM A PRIVACY PERSPECTIVE THAT I THINK WOULD RAISE MORE -- THAT COULD BE HARMFUL FOR A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAN THAT I THINK WE ARE THINKING ABOUT.

>> Bonnie: MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY, PATRICE.

DOESN'T THIS SORT OF PARKING THAT TO THE '50s IN '60s WITH, YOU KNOW, THE FBI AND BEFORE THAT, HOOVER BUGGING PEOPLE'S HOMES?

I WAS JUST READING ABOUT SOMEBODY, SOMEONE'S OBITUARY THAT THIS PERSON WAS BEING SPIED ON BY THE GOVERNMENT WHEN HE ACTUALLY PASSED AND NEW PEOPLE BUGGED THE HOME AND RENOVATED IT WITH ALL KINDS OF BUGS IN THE WALL.

[LAUGHTER] >> Bonnie: ARE WE GOING TO MONITOR THAT KIND OF THING, IS THERE A TRADE-OFF?

>> I THINK PERSONALLY, BUT I THINK PERSONALLY TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, AND I THINK IT'S COMPLICATED.

WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A MEETING AND SOMEONE IS PRIVATE CHATTING YOU AND YOU ARE TRYING TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEN BE ABLE TO CAPTURE THAT, AND NOT FOR THE PLATFORMS THEMSELVES TO MONITOR WHAT IS GOING ON IN TURN IT OVER TO THE CORPORATION, I THINK THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

AND IF YOU ARE ON A TELEPHONE CALL IN MANY STATES, AND I MEAN IN MY STATE, I CAN RECORD THAT BECAUSE I AM ON THE PHONE CALL.

BUT IN OTHER WAYS, YOU CANNOT REALLY DO THE SAME THING WHEN YOU ARE INTERACTING IN THE MIDDLE OF A MEETING ON THE PLATFORM.

>> Bonnie: ONE LAST QUESTION ABOUT THIS: I WOULD THINK ON SOME LEVEL, TELL ME I'M WRONG, BUT IF YOU ARE NOT INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER IN PERSON ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS HE USED TO BE IN THE OFFICE, ISN'T THAT LESS TIME FOR PEOPLE WHO WOULD HARASS WOMEN SEXUALLY OR ASSAULT THEM, THAT THEY HAVE YOUR OPPORTUNITIES IN THE SITUATION IF EVERYONE IS WORKING FROM HOME; YES OR NO?

>> I THINK THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THAT.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WE KNOW AND WE KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVE EXAMPLES OF GUYS SHOWING UP TO THE ZOOM MEETINGS WITH NO PANTS ON AND STUFF LIKE THAT, THAT THERE IS TOO MUCH CASUAL ATTITUDE TOWARDS THESE MEETINGS.

THAT IS FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE CHARGE OF THESE MEETINGS AND CORPORATIONS SETTING ETIQUETTE RULES AND SETTINGS AND STANDARDS FOR WHEN THEY GET ON THE PHONE SO THAT EVEN THOUGH THE FACILITATION OF THE MEETING MAY BE MORE CASUAL, THAT THEY ARE EXPECTED TO ACT AND BEHAVE.

YOU KNOW, GOLDEN GLOVES, AFTER WHAT HAPPENED THERE IN THE OSCARS SAID YOU WILL COME DRESSED THIS TIME BECAUSE IF YOU SET THE RULES, THAT WILL HELP AS WELL.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD OFFER IS WOMEN NEED OTHER SKILLS THAT WE DON'T NORMALLY GET TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE MORE EFFECTIVELY IN THIS MORE RELAXED ATMOSPHERE, ONE OF WHICH IS THE ART OF NEGOTIATION.

I MEAN, I AM SHOCKED CONSTANTLY AT HOW WOMEN ARE JUST UNAWARE OF HOW TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES.

AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY ARE TAUGHT, SOMETHING THAT MEN GET THEIR FATHER'S NEED THAT WE STILL DON'T.

IS A LOT OF OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT THAT CORPORATIONS HAVE BEEN DOING, NONPROFITS CAN BE DOING TO EQUIP WOMEN WITH SKILLS TO BETTER ENABLE THEM TO COMPETE IN THESE KIND OF ATMOSPHERE'S.

>> Bonnie: FROM GENDER EQUALITY TO BUILDING ALLIANCES: REPORTS OF HATE CRIMES AGAINST ASIAN AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, ARE ON THE RISE.

JUST THIS WEEK, A MAN WAS ARRESTED FOR ASSAULTING AN ASIAN AMERICAN WOMAN IN NEW YORK CITY IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.

LAST MONTH, SIX ASIAN WOMEN WERE MURDERED IN ATLANTA.

MANY AMERICANS, PARTICULARLY BLACK FEMALE ACTIVISTS, HAVE COME OUT TO RALLY IN SUPPORT OF ASIAN AMERICAN AND PACIFIC ISLANDERS.

ACTIVISTS SAY BLACK AND ASIAN AMERICANS ARE NATURAL ALLIES, SHARING A HISTORY OF OPPRESSION AND DISCRIMINATION.

THEY ALSO SAY STEREOTYPING HAS CONSEQUENCES FROM THE FETISHIZATION OF ASIAN WOMEN TO THE TROPE OF THE ANGRY BLACK WOMAN.

HAD TO ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN EXPERIENCE RACE DISCRIMINATION AND GENDER DISCRIMINATION DIFFERENTLY?

>> OH, BOY.

THAT IS QUITE A QUESTION!

>> IN TWO SECONDS OR LESS!

[LAUGHTER] >> YOU KNOW, I THINK -- I FEEL LIKE RACIAL EQUALITY IS OFTEN PORTRAYED AS A ZERO-SUM GAME.

YOU KNOW, ASIANS ARE GETTING AHEAD AT THE EXPENSE OF THE LATINO COMMUNITY OR AFRICAN-AMERICAN, SO THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY HOW RACIAL EQUALITY WORKS.

FOR TOO LONG, DIFFERENT PEOPLE OF COLOR AND DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER.

I FEEL LIKE NOW INCREASINGLY, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, THROUGH OTHER MOVEMENTS THAT ARE GOING ON, PEOPLE ARE FINALLY REALIZING THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE.

WE CAN ALL LIFT EACH OTHER UP.

YOU ARE SEEING, YOU KNOW, ASIAN AMERICANS, LATINOS, OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE ALL SUPPORTING THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.

YOU ARE SEEING NOW WITH THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ASIAN AMERICANS.

YOU ARE SEEING PEOPLE OF ALL RACES AND ALL DIFFERENT -- IS NOT JUST ASIAN AMERICANS CALLING THIS OUT AND STOPPING THE HEAT.

SO THE INTERSECTION ELLIOTT THINK IS GREAT AND HOPEFULLY IT CONTINUES.

>> Bonnie: DONNA, HOW DO YOU SEE WOMEN OF COLOR WHO ARE ASIAN AND WOMEN OF COLOR, AFRICAN BACKGROUNDS BUILDING ALLIANCES?

IS THIS SOMETHING NEW OR HAS IT BEEN GOING ON FOR QUITE SOME TIME AND JUST THE MURDERS OF ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN BRINGING IT TO LIGHT?

>> Donna: LOOK, I ACTUALLY THINK THAT WE ARE IN A MOMENT THAT'S PROBABLY BEEN GOING ON FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS WHERE WHAT AMANDA DESCRIBES THIS INTERSECTION ALI IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND WHERE COMMUNITIES ARE UNITING.

ASIAN AMERICANS, LATINOS, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, WE REALIZE THAT OUR STRUGGLES ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

THEY MAY NOT BE THE SAME, BUT THEY ARE SIMILAR ENOUGH TO ENABLE US TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER.

I THINK IT IS GRATIFYING TO SEE THAT THERE WERE OVER 3800 ALLIED MARCHES AND EVENTS IN SUPPORT OF ASIAN AMERICANS AND AGAINST ASIAN AMERICAN VIOLENCEND THE MULTITUDE OF THE TYPES OF PEOPLE, YOUNG, OLD, BLACK, WHITE, ASIAN, LATINO AT THESE EVENTS, AND THAT IS GOING TO BE A NEW DAY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO OPPRESS ANY CATEGORY OF PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie: ANN STONE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Ann: MY THOUGHTS ARE GLAD TO SEE PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER ON THIS.

FOR TOO LONG, ASIAN AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY THE OLDER ASIAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN STEREOTYPED AS BEING TOO WEAK AND VULNERABLE.

THAT'S WHY THEY BECOME TARGETS, ESPECIALLY ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN, THAT THEY ARE SUBMISSIVE AND WILL NOT FIGHT BACK.THERE HAS BEEN -- >> Bonnie: BUT YOU AND I BOTH KNOW, BECAUSE WE GO BACK, WAY BACK IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT, 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO, THEY WERE NOW WOULD HAVE NEWS CONFERENCES THAT INCLUDE AFRICAN-AMERICAN, DA API, ASIAN AMERICAN PACIFIC ISLANDERS GROUPS.

SO THIS IS NOT NEW.

>> Ann: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: THEY HAVE A COALITION.

>> Ann: CORRECT, BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH OF THAT RECENTLY.

THIS HOPEFULLY WILL BRING THAT BACK WHERE EVERYONE -- AND IT SHOULD BE ALL RACES WORKING TOGETHER, BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THIS WILL BE SOLVED OU KNOW, ELEVATING ONE OR TWO VERSES ANOTHER AND TEARING ONE DOWN OR WHATEVER, THAT DOES NOT HELP ANYBODY.

BY GETTING EVERYONE TO WORK TOGETHER IS GOING TO BE KEY GOING FORWARD AND I'M GLAD TO SEE THE FIRST STEPS ARE HAPPENING.

>> Bonnie: PATRICE, TOUGH QUESTION I KNOW, BUT DO YOU FEEL IS CLOSED TO ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN IN TERMS OF FIGHTING AGAINST WHATEVER RACISM YOU MAY HAVE FACED AS YOU DO TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN OR AS YOU DO WITH AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN?

>> Patrice: I THINK IT IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AS AN IMMIGRANT BLACK WOMAN, I ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN, ASIAN PEOPLE IN GENERAL, PARTICULARLY IN THE EDUCATIONAL FIELD.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THERE HAS BEEN KIND OF THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST HIGH-PERFORMING PEOPLE OF COLOR COMING FROM AFRICAN NATIONS, COMING FROM THE CARIBBEAN NATIONS, AND, INFORMATION BACKGROUNDS, BECAUSE THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT THOSE ARE HIGH-PERFORMING FROM STABLE, STRONG FAMILIES TO PARENT HOUSEHOLDS WHICH ARE ECONOMICALLY DOING BETTER.

SO CERTAIN SPOTS AND ELITE UNIVERSITIES, FOR EXAMPLE, SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR THOSE WHOSE BACKGROUNDS HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST THROUGH SLAVERY.O I THINK THERE IS MORE NUANCED TO THIS CONVERSATION THAN I THINK IS BEING HAD HERE ABSOLUTELY UNITE WITH MY BROTHERS AND MY SISTERS, YOU KNOW, OF EVERY RACE AND COLOR AGAINST VIOLENCE AND GENERAL VIOLENCE IN PARTICULAR.

BUT I AM CURIOUS TO SEE HOW THIS WILL BEAR OUT WHEN YOU MOVE INTO OTHER MORE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES WHERE YOU HAVE SEEN THAT SOME RACIST, EVEN WITHIN THE BLACK RACE AND HISPANICS VERSUS BLACKS OR ASIANS AND BLACKS HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, TREATED VERY DIFFERENTLY IN EFFORTS TO REVERSE DISCRIMINATION FROM THE PAST.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT STEP.

>> I THINK WE ARE ALSO SEEING BROADER RECOGNITION.

I SAW THIS A LOT AFTER THE RECENT ELECTION, THAT SPEAKING ABOUT THE ASIAN COMMUNITY, THE ASIAN COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, IS VERY DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE KOREAN-AMERICAN, IF YOU ARE CHINESE-AMERICAN, JAPANESE, YOU KNOW, FILIPINO, YOU KNOW -- >> Bonnie: INDIAN-AMERICAN.

>> RIGHT.

A LOT OF DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES, A LOT OF ASIAN WOMEN ARE ASIAN WOMEN, IT'S ASSUMED YOU ARE ASIAN.

THE NUMBER OF TIMES I'VE HAD PEOPLE TRY TO SPEAK CHINESE TO ME OR ASSUME I'M JAPANESE OR SPEAK GIBBERISH AND THROW SOMETHING AT ME, NOT PHYSICALLY, BUT, YOU KNOW, SOME SORT OF COMMENT MY WAY, YOU KNOW, THESE COMMUNITIES HAVE VERY DIFFERENT EXPENSES AND WE LEARNED THAT AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION WHERE IT WAS TALKED ABOUT THE LATINO VOTE, THE HISPANIC VOTE, CUBAN-AMERICAN IS REALLY DIFFERENT THAN RECENT IMMIGRANTS FROM MEXICO, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE SAW THAT IN THEIR VOTING PATTERNS AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO RECOGNIZE THIS AND THEY WILL BE MORE EFFORTS TO UNDERSTAND THE INDIVIDUAL COMMUNITIES AND SORT OF THEIR PERCEPTIONS.

>> THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOW AND EVEN 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO WITH THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT IS THAT THE LEADERSHIP ON THESE ISSUES IS ACTUALLY COMING FROM WOMEN OF COLOR, WHEREAS PREVIOUSLY WOMEN WOULD HIGHLIGHT AT PRESS CONFERENCES BUT DID NOT REALLY SERVE IN LEADERSHIP OF THE MOVEMENT.

TODAY, THESE WOMEN LEADERS ARE STEPPING UP ALL ACROSS THE BOARD IN EVERY SINGLE COMMUNITY TO LEAD THEIR OWN FIGHTS.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

I WANT TO ASK ANN, DO YOU THINK WHITE AMERICANS HAVE AN IMPRESSION, FOR EXAMPLE -- AND I'M NOT SURE OF THE DATA, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE -- BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, ASIAN AMERICANS SEEM TO DO WAY BETTER IN A HIGHER EDUCATION IN GETTING INTO THE BEST SCHOOLS THAN AFRICAN-AMERICANS, AND SO THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THERE IN EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, ABILITIES TO PAY, ETC., ETC.?

>> Ann: I THINK THERE PROBABLY SOME OF THAT OUT THERE AND YOU ALSO LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE OF CULTURE, ASIAN CULTURE WHERE THE ELDERS ARE REALLY HONORED AND THERE IS SUCH AN EMPHASIS ON EDUCATION THROUGHOUT THE CULTURE.

IT IS SOMETHING -- AT LEAST THE IMPRESSION THAT WHITES HAVE.

BUT I WANTED TELL YOU, ONE OF THE COMMENTS MADE TO ME EARLIER, IF YOU GOING TO USE TO GOOGLE ON ASIAN AMERICAN HISTORY, ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN'S HISTORY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'VE GOT?

ASIAN BABES FOR SALE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT -- THIS IS RECENTLY.

MAY EVEN STILL BE THE CASE THAT IT WILL SHOW UP IN THE TOP FIVE SEARCH ON ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN'S HISTORY.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID AT THE NATIONAL WOMEN'S HISTORY MUSEUM WAS TO PUT EXHIBITS UP SO THAT WHEN SHOW UP FIRST IS SUPPOSED TO ASIAN BABES FOR SALE.

WHEN THAT HER BASES ON THE INTERNET AND ANYONE WOULD COME FOR INFORMATION, THAT'S PRETTY BAD AND IT NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

AGAIN, AMANDA, WHY DON'T WE CLOSE OUT WITH YOU?

WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST GAPS THAT NEED TO BE BRIDGED BETWEEN ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND HISPANIC AMERICAN WOMEN> Amanda: YOU KNOW, I THINK IS INCREASINGLY BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES, YOU KNOW, PUT IT OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC AND BUST SOME OF THE MYTHS THAT ARE OUT THERE IN JUST BE OPEN AND HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES, THE COMMONALITIES, AND, AGAIN, JUST TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME.

YOU KNOW, PROGRESS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE AT THE EXPENSE OF EACH OTHER AND SORT OF REINFORCING THAT JUST FUELS SORT OF THE HIERARCHY THAT HAS BEEN IN PLACE THAT'S NOT GOOD FOR ANY WOMEN, BASICALLY.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

THIS WAS FASCINATING.

THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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