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- This is One-On-One.

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- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

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- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

Yes, this is "One-on-One" but it's two of us.

My colleague Jacqui Tricarico, a senior correspondent with us, and also someone who does some great interviews that you see on "One-on-One" as well as our sister series "Remember Them" that Jacqui's the executive producer.

Hey Jacqui set this up.

You and I are at the annual New Jersey Sharing Network 5K Celebration of Life event.

Talk about that and the interview for people to see in just a couple of seconds.

- Steve, this past June, you and I had a chance to attend yet again the New Jersey Sharing Network's 5K Celebration of Life in New Providence, New Jersey.

This was their 15th year, 15 years putting on this event.

It is a huge event raising so much money for organ and tissue donation in the state of New Jersey.

You know, when we talk about the numbers, we always like to just bring it back to the fact that there are over 4,000 people in New Jersey alone waiting for a lifesaving organ and also tissue that's needed all throughout the state.

So this is a great opportunity to hear some of those stories, those personal stories of the impact that organ and tissue donation has on so many people.

- And he, in this interview I talked with Dr.

Patrick Buddle, who's the chairman of the Governing Board of Trustees, New Jersey Sharing Network and also a living kidney donor.

What did you take away from this interview?

'Cause this is very personal for the doctor.

- Personal in so many different ways for him.

You know, he had a mentor and a friend, a colleague of his, Dr.

Andy, that was very ill and needed a new kidney.

And Dr.

Buddle, he even admits even as a physician, he didn't understand how great the need was for organ and tissue donation, but he decided to give a kidney to Dr.

Andy and save his life and gave him a lot more years of living and to be able to see his kids and grandkids for many more years after that.

But there's another story you'll hear during this interview, Steve, where Dr.

Buddle talks about another connection to organ and tissue donation that really brought his son and his daughter-in-law together.

- Did they meet at the race?

Did they meet at the 5K?

- No, but you'll hear Dr.

Buddle's story.

It's such an incredible, incredible story.

- Now I remember... - You have to listen.

You have to listen.

It's an incredible story.

And really he says it was heavenly intervention and someone who passed away that gave the gift of life kind of stepped in he said to make sure that his son and his daughter-in-law met that one day.

- You know, sometimes when you do a lot of interviews, they have to come back to you and you gotta think through.

It hit me as soon as Jacqui said it.

No, that's not where they met, Steve.

The story is much more powerful than simply meeting at the 5K, which is significant enough.

It is powerful, poignant, and significant for Jacqui, myself, and our entire team.

Let's check out that conversation.

- Uplifting music.

- We're here at the New Jersey Sharing Network 5K.

This is the 15th anniversary.

We're here with Dr.

Patrick Buddle, who is a living kidney donor.

Chair of the Governing Board of Trustees New Jersey Sharing Network.

Doctor, great to have you with us today.

- Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve.

- Talk to us about your connection to this great event.

- Well, back in 2002, a colleague and a friend of mine, another physician at the hospital, Jersey Shore University Medical Center, unfortunately, he ended up with the end stage, or kidney disease.

So as time went on, he eventually ended up on dialysis, and being a good friend that he was, one day at the hospital, I went to visit him, and we were talking how he was doing and stuff like that.

So just by chance, I asked him what blood type he was, and he said, B-positive.

And I said, I'm pretty much the same type, and if you need a kidney, I'd be willing to step up, and donate that kidney to you.

- You just did it?

- Yeah.

- Had you thought about it before?

- I had, not... Not in the sense of giving a donation like that, but obviously I talked to Nancy, my wife, she, who was very supportive.

- You and Nancy been married for how many?

40 years?

- Just 40 years in July.

- Congratulations.

- Thank you.

- So you talked to Nancy about it, and?

- Yeah.

And she knew Andy, Dr.

Andy Swaroop.

Great guy, was my mentor when I started my practice.

So initially, he didn't, he rejected the idea, he didn't want me to do it.

But I think dialysis eventually got the best of him.

And he said, "If you would do that, that would be tremendous."

So we actually had the surgery done in December when my practice was a little bit slower, because of the holidays.

We had it done at Saint Barnabas with Dr.

Geffner and Dr.

Mulgaonkar, who's a great, great person.

He is unbelievable.

They took good care of me.

So I knew I was in good hands.

- Stuart Geffner, by the way, actually did, my wife donated her kidney.

- Really?

- And it was Dr.

Geffner.

- Yeah.

- It's a small world, right?

- So he practiced on me after, and then he did your wife.

(Steve laughing) - So hold on.

As a physician, I'm curious about this.

How aware were you of the need?

'Cause as we speak here, as we do this, we've been doing this for several years.

This is the 15th anniversary of the 5K here at the Sharing Network.

I keep finding more and more people who weren't aware of the need that there are 4,000 people in New Jersey waiting.

Were you aware as a physician?

- No, I was not.

And because they really don't, as a physician, they don't teach that stuff in medical school.

So it was just by chance that Andy got sick and was, you know, I donated the kidney, and then I started finding out all the statistics about it.

- [Steve] Right.

- After the donation, Carolyn Welsh was actually the Hospital Services Manager, - The CEO.

- Yeah, now she's the CEO and President of the organization.

- [Steve] She was there at the time at Jersey Shore?

- Yeah, she was the Hospital Services Manager, and since then, she's worked herself up to the President and CEO.

But after the donation, she asked me to come on the Organ Donor Council for the hospital.

And that's when I saw the statistics, and that's when I knew there was a need to be more of an advocate for donation.

- So, your friend, Dr.

Andy?

- Yeah.

- He lived for 13 years?

- Yeah, 12 to 13 years, yeah.

- You gave that gift.

- Yeah.

- And as I understand it, he was able to see his children get married, see his grandchildren, who were born.

- Right.

- During that time.

- Yeah.

- When you look back on it, and also the involvement that you've had with the Sharing Network, what message would you share with everybody else right now who hears about it?

They know they can go online.

You go on the website right now as we're talking about this.

You know, your license, that's where you can do it easily.

You can go on the website.

What would you say to everybody else who thinks about it but isn't committed to doing it yet, 'cause they don't know enough?

- Yeah, to tell you the truth, I think it was more of an opportunity for me, 'cause I was the healthy one, in the, - Sure.

- Hand of, he was the sick one.

I was healthy enough to give a kidney, and be great afterwards.

So I was the fortunate one to actually be able to do that for him.

- You feel that way?

- Yeah.

- That you were the fortunate one.

- Yeah.

- How's it affected your life physically?

'Cause you just, I gotta say this, doctor, you're just bragging to me that you did, that what was the race you ran?

Like you're smiling, 'cause you showed me the time, under a minute.

What was it?

You had to do what?

- Called the Murph.

- The Murph, which involves a mile what?

- A mile run.

- 100 pullups.

- 200 pushups.

- 200 pushups.

- 300 squats, and another mile, yeah.

But, - And you're physically strong enough to do it.

- Yeah.

So you can give a kidney and still live a great life.

- More than a great life.

I mean, quality of life, working out all the time.

The other thing that's fascinating is, there's a family connection for you with the 5K.

- [Patrick] Yeah.

- What is it?

- Well, being on the Organ Donor Council at the hospital, I had the opportunity and the great experience of meeting a lot of donor families when they came in.

One of the donor families, the Buckiewicz family, unfortunately their son was involved in a car accident.

He's a young man in his 20s, just got accepted to law school.

When they came into the hospital, I met Amy, his sister.

I met Jane, his mother, and I met the father Bruce, eventually later on.

Excuse me, this is a great story.

But Amy eventually became a great spokesman for the Sharing Network.

- [Steve] Right.

- She wanted to tell Danny's story, and how he was a hero and donated his organs and saved many lives.

And it's a great story.

So after the 5K up here, Amy has the Buckiewicz Team, they all went back to Monmouth County.

- That's Team Buck.

- Correct, yep.

They all went back to Monmouth County.

They went to the local watering hole, the Parker House.

- We know it well.

- Yeah.

(Steve laughing) And fortunately my son was one of the bartenders there that day when they went back there with her team.

So he's wearing one of these green bracelets.

- Yeah, I got one too.

- So Amy asked him, "Why are you wearing the green bracelet from the Sharing Network?"

And he says, "Well, my father works with the Sharing Network."

And she goes, "Who is your father?"

And he says, "Dr.

Buddle."

Of course, she said, "I know your father very well."

And they kept talking, they kept talking, they kept talking.

And in 2019, they got married.

- Your son?

- Yes.

- [Steve] And, - [Patrick] Amy.

- [Steve] Amy.

- [Patrick] From the Buckiewicz family.

Danny's sister.

Yeah.

- What are the odds?

- Well, a lot of people call it coincidence.

I don't think so.

I think it was a match made in heaven, so.

And from that reunion that they had at the Parker House, we have two of our five grandchildren are Vinnie and Amy's.

- [Steve] Wow.

- And everybody lives in Manasquan.

- Talk about a gift.

- It is a gift.

- It is a gift.

- See, I mean, you can't, you really can't explain it.

- No, you can't.

- You think about it all the time.

But like I said, it had to be a match made in heaven.

We're so grateful and blessed to have Amy and the Buckiewicz family in our lives.

And Jane's actually a member of the board as well.

I think you've interviewed her before.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Obviously, out of that tragedy came all this good stuff.

And it's just, you can't make it up.

- Well, it's difficult and powerful, and important story to tell.

And it's more than a story.

It's about people's lives.

- [Patrick] Right.

- And giving that gift.

I wanna thank you, doctor, we appreciate it.

- Now, on behalf of the Sharing Network, I know you're a great advocate for us and I really want to thank you guys and all your staff for doing every year, you do this with us.

And we're very grateful for what you do.

- It's our honor.

Thank you, doctor.

- Thank you.

Appreciate it.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- Recently my colleague, Mary Gamba, who is the co-anchor of our sister series "Lessons in Leadership."

Mary and I sat down and talked with Dr.

Ralph Gigliotti, who is the author of a book called "Post-Crisis Leadership."

I'm a student of leadership, try to understand it, and particularly the mistakes I make as a leader, post-crisis leadership, resilience, renewal, and reinvention in the aftermath of disruption.

And he’s also affiliated with Rutgers University as a professor there in organizational leadership.

Important conversation.

Let's check it out.

- Ralph, good to see you.

- Hi, Steve.

Thanks for having me.

Nice to see you and Mary.

- You got it.

Hey, first of all, define disruption.

- We're dealing with a lot of disruption across our higher ed sector and across the country.

And I think when we talk about disruption, it's sort of a deviation from or impact on our shared experience, our shared set of values, our shared set of principles.

It's a disruption in sort of how we understand ourself and our relationship to others.

- Yeah, in the book, you talk about the fact that, and again, I'm a student of crisis leadership.

I wrote a book a few years back, published by Rutgers University Press.

- Absolutely.

I've read it.

- It's called, What Were They Thinking?

It's all about crisis communication.

But in your book, which is really interesting, it's like, okay, we're dealing with the crisis, the disruption, gotta get through it.

You talk about what the heck happens after.

What do you mean by leadership after the fact, Ralph?

- Yes, Steve, so there's a lot, as you know from your own research, a lot written on how to prepare for crisis and manage risk, and then certainly a lot of growing literature in terms of what to do in the midst of crisis, in the midst of that disruption, where I wanted to contribute to the conversation was really on the leadership imperative and the aftermath of the disruption.

So what are those post-crisis leadership imperatives?

- What are some of the keys to being the best leader one can be when the wave has subsided for the disruption/crisis?

Please.

- I think there are a few things.

One, how do you encourage learning?

So what are the ways in which you as a leader are encouraging learning across your teams, across your divisions, across your organization, to debrief what you just lived through in preparing for what inevitable disruption might come next?

How are you tapping into the resilience, the resilience of your communities, in weathering the crisis that you're currently undergoing and also building resilience for whatever might come next?

I also talk a lot about meaning making.

What are the ways in which leaders are using language and narrative to construct meaning in the aftermath of these events that sometimes are senseless or lack meaning.

Advancing renewal, so what are the ways in which we're healing and moving beyond the crisis itself?

And all of that really speaks to the importance of the leader and being able to sort of tap into the change that might be possible in the aftermath of crisis.

So what are the ways in which you can pursue reinvention.

- Now, Mary, how much do you and I as leaders of our organization are, particularly our not-for-profit production company in the midst of COVID, which millions of other people were not only trying to survive, but then the aftermath.

We've been dealing with the aftermath for years now and asking ourselves, what have we learned from that?

How have we changed, how we've evolved, et cetera, and how do we prepare for the potential again?

And we've become a totally different organization.

Pick it up from there.

Mary.

- We truly have.

And Ralph, one of the areas that you talked about when you talked about the five core leadership principles when dealing with a crisis is, and I just wanna look at my notes, inspiring growth.

And what was strange for all of us is that when COVID happened, when we were all transitioning, pivoting, trying to figure out, all right, how are we gonna deal with this, so many of us still continue to grow, evolve.

Talk about that trait, if you will, or that part of dealing in a crisis, inspiring growth.

How do you do that while you're also dealing with a crisis?

Why don't you just wanna put your head in the sand?

- I'd say it, oh, well, how tempting of a tendency it is to do just that when you're triaging whatever's in front of you in the moment.

I think the real opportunity here, embedded in crisis, disruption, uncertainty, are to figure out what are those growth points?

What are those opportunities where we can rethink how we're approaching core functions?

What are the ways in which we can think about who we're becoming as an organization as a result of what we've endured?

And so that reminds us of that twofold focus of crisis.

There's danger, there's fear, there's uncertainty, there's risk, but there's also opportunity.

And that opportunity has to be leveraged by those who are called upon to lead.

- How and when did you become fascinated by leadership, particularly this aspect of leadership and disruption/crisis?

- Great question.

So I as an undergraduate student leader in my institution, we sort of experienced a crisis.

So that gave me a front row seat into how an organization comes together in the midst of crisis, went on to do my master's and then my PhD where I was studying crisis at our alma mater, Steve, at Rutgers where I did my PhD.

And really looking at crisis leadership across higher education.

One of the themes that came out in the research I did was this sort of counter-cultural need for agility that educational organizations often are organized around consensus, collaborative decision making, and crises threaten that.

They require urgent, swift, well coordinated responses.

So I've really devoted a lot of my career to helping build capacity for educational leaders who are seeking to engage in effective crisis leadership.

And certainly, you know, COVID what punctuated the importance for having leaders who are well equipped to respond to the pressures of our time.

- But you know what, Mary just had a son graduate a while back from college, we did as well.

She has one in college now.

We do as well.

And I keep thinking, okay, so higher ed experience the crisis during COVID, it is got another whole different set of disruptions/mini-crisis, and maybe not mini, and dealing with the federal government right now, dealing with questions of academic independence, dealing with questions of economics, excuse me, how the heck can you begin to plan for what you're gonna be when you get through this, when you're trying to keep your head above water and pay the bills and keep your stu... How the heck can you do that when you're trying to survive?

- Yeah.

It's such a timely point.

And some are suggesting that we're living through a state of polycrisis right now for all the reasons you just mentioned, sort of figuring out what's the main source of the issue.

I think there, there are a couple of things.

One is to go back to principles.

Talk a lot about values-based leadership being particularly important during times of crisis.

What do we stand for and what are the ways in which those values will help serve as a guide for how we're going to weather the turbulence of our times?

I think the second is to make sure that you're taking care of your people.

That these are trying times and crisis leadership really contest leadership teams and organizations.

So what are the ways in which we're understanding the pressures of our moment, taking care of one another?

And that's the process of resilience as well as we're caring for one another and trying to figure out a coordinated response to the various challenges of time.

- Hey, Mary, you know, it's an interesting point, as Ralph talks about this, I wouldn't call it a crisis, but even our organization, excuse me, when we're facing, hey, the economy's what it is, there's consolidation going on in organization, so we get anxious.

I wouldn't call it a crisis, Mary.

We get anxious about the fundraising part.

It can create tension among team members, but Ralph's talking about taking care of each other during that time.

Mary does that resonate for you?

- It totally resonates.

And Ralph, I'm sure you agree, it's about lifting one another up and it's about being vulnerable without panicking and running around and saying the sky is falling.

And there is that fine line.

And I would love for you to talk about that a little bit more.

How do you keep that level of optimism during a crisis as a leader, as Steve often says, it's important to show that you're a human being, that you're vulnerable, but people around you also wanna see, that they want you to say things are gonna be okay.

Where does that balance come in?

- Fascinating.

I mean, I think, when you think about the work of leadership as a communicative process, there's the leader as performer and the leader as human.

And I think both of those domains come into play during times of crisis.

So certainly to be authentic, to know what you stand for, to ensure your teams and organizations understand the criteria that you're using to make the decisions you're making as a leader are really important.

But how often do we hear of individuals reflecting on their leaders during times of crisis?

And what are they looking for?

Optimism, presence, hope, and how critical it is for leaders to show up in these moments in ways that do exactly what you just said, Mary, lift others up, try to envision what that desire future state might be, and harness the opportunities that might be made possible as a result of the storms we're navigating today.

- Ralph, let me just push back a little bit.

How the heck, our people are looking for confidence, as Mary said, optimism, but then we're also looking for vulnerability and honesty.

So here's the question.

For those of us in leadership positions who know that we're ultimately responsible for everyone on the team getting a paycheck every two weeks, having health insurance for our people, having a pension plan for our people, creating a work environment that makes sense for our people with their personal and family lives.

How about if the leader is scared to death?

How about if the leader is not sure about the future, not overly confident about the future?

When people don't wanna hear you're scared, you're nervous, you're feeling vulnerable, you're worried yourself.

Basically, I think at times, being a great leader means faking it.

You say.

- Interesting.

- Literally faking it.

I'm not gonna tell you how I really feel.

I'm not gonna tell you what I really think.

I'm not gonna tell you how worried I am because if I do, it permeates the organization and then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Go ahead.

- Sure.

Yeah.

Well, I think, I mean, inviting some degree of vulnerability is a way to humanize the leader- - I call strategic vulnerability.

But go ahead.

- That's, I think that's exactly right, and I think people can see through it when you're portraying confidence but you're shaken at your core.

And so I think a little bit of vulnerability, especially when you're dealing with polycrisis or crises, that are threatening, that are disruptive, that shake us to our core.

I think understanding the vulnerability and acknowledging it is clear, but it's the invitation for a leader to show up and to help move the organization forward even when the future's uncertain.

And this is where I think the shared leadership, Steve, becomes so important because we often sort of put the burden on the one leader who we're looking to sort of create, and charge forward in the midst of the crisis.

And how often is it the team, the whole coming together to bounce ideas off of one another, to envision that desire future state.

- Mary, we're gonna talk behind Ralph's back when we let him go in a good way.

But I will tell you, but I'll say this too.

I often do think even though leadership has changed, even though AI has changed our world, technology, et cetera, all these multiple disruptions, I do think in the end, certain people in certain positions as leaders can feel very alone.

And somewhat, I'm sure on some level am I projecting?

Yeah, absolutely.

But I know I'm not alone.

Hey, listen, Ralph, this is a fascinating book.

It's called Post-Crisis Leadership, Resilience, Renewal, and Reinvention in the Aftermath of Disruption.

Ralph, good stuff.

Thanks for joining us.

- Thank you, Steve.

Thank you, Mary.

- You got it.

I'm Steve Adubato.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Congress Hall.

A Cape Resorts property.

Valley Bank.

New Jersey’s Clean Energy program.

EJI, Excellence in Medicine Awards.

A New Jersey health foundation program.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

The North Ward Center.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

And by Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Monthly.

And by NJ.Com.

Hey, kids, PBS Kids and Delta Dental want you to have a healthy smile.

So here are some tips for you to remember.

Number one, eat plenty of crunchy fruits and vegetables.

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