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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Welcome everyone.

I'm Steve Adubato and it's our honor to welcome once again, Patrick Wall, who is a senior reporter at Chalkbeat Newark.

You see him on a regular basis on the terrific NJ Spotlight News talking about education, a variety of related issues.

Patrick, thanks for joining us.

- Thanks for having me.

- Patrick, I'm reading from an article that you wrote back on March 3rd, you talk about the situation with New Jersey's segregated schools.

There's a whole range of education issues but this is about our schools.

"Hundreds of thousands of black and Latino students in New Jersey attend schools where they are racially isolated and surrounded by poverty despite strong state laws that forbid school segregation.

One of the nation's most segregated states," I believe the sixth, most segregated state, "New Jersey has allowed the problem to fester for decades and now it must fix it."

How the heck could such a diverse state have such segregated schools, A, and B, is there a judge that's now supposed to decide what to do about that, Patrick?

- Yeah, I know.

It's something that I think surprises a lot of New Jerseyans that the schools are as segregated as they are.

You mentioned it's a six most segregated for black students in terms of their exposure to white students, and the seventh most for Latino students.

And what that, advocates who filed this lawsuit and the parents are claiming is that one of the big reasons this exists is because of state law that requires most students to go to school where they live.

And because we know so many communities, suburbs versus cities are racially isolated, you know, also socioeconomically that then that's imposed on the schools because kids have to go to school where they live.

And so- - Right.

- That's one of the driving factors.

And so that now is the subject of this lawsuit.

And a judge heard both sides argue this earlier this month.

And so that judge, a Superior Court judge, is expected to rule on this in the coming days or weeks.

He said, "In due course."

- So hold on a second.

I'm gonna be clear.

We're taping on the 15th of March.

There's a good chance in a couple of weeks this airs or after that, a decision will have been made.

But the Murphy administration is saying, has said consistently in arguing against this lawsuit that's being brought by the plaintiffs that New Jersey's not to blame for this as a state.

So what the heck is the decision?

Is it about, it's not whether the schools are segregated, they are.

It's who's to blame and what happens.

- Yeah.

this particular phase of the case is about who is responsible, and specifically whether the state is responsible for fixing the problem.

And then if the plaintiffs are successful, then it'll start a new conversation about the remedies.

But the state has been arguing, you know, you mentioned it seems pretty evident that schools are segregated.

The state is actually saying the plaintiffs haven't proved that this is a problem statewide.

They're saying, could it just be some districts and not the whole state?

And then they're also saying that maybe it's not the state's fault.

Maybe it's housing patterns or demographics, which again, the plaintiffs are saying, well, the state ruled that you go to school where you live is a state policy, and an earlier court ruling.

This is from years ago, they had said that regardless of who's responsible, the state has a duty to act to to address segregation, because- - Because of the constitution?

- Exactly.

The state- - Because the 1947, I'm sorry for interrupting.

The 1947 constitution stipulates that the state will be responsible for a thorough and efficient education of every child in the state, and therefore being segregated or in a segregated school system would mitigate against that, Patrick, is that fair to say?

- Yeah, they're saying it kind of deprives students of the benefits of diversity, but New Jersey actually goes a step further where they do have a clause in the constitution that says school segregation is not allowed, which makes it one of the very few states in the country that explicitly says school segregation is not permitted.

- And to be clear, and I'm no constitutional expert.

I'm not a lawyer, but the 1954 decision Brown versus Board of Education stipulated the United States Supreme Court that separate but equal doesn't fly.

That's not legitimate.

- Exactly.

- That's unconstitutional.

So, so I just wanna be clear on this.

I live in the town of Montclair.

We have a very integrated community, a very integrated school system.

I'm not bragging.

I'm just saying what it is.

That is the exception, the plaintiffs are arguing?

That an integrated school system like the one in Montclair is the exception, not the rule?

- Yes.

Generally speaking, that that is less common, but they are acknowledging that there are lots of districts that are diverse and that shows that it is possible.

But the big thing they're claiming is that you can't just tell individual districts to do it themselves.

Like for example, Newark.

If you just said, okay, Newark, you have to make the schools more integrated.

Only about 8% of students are white.

It just mathematically isn't possible, unless you can cross district lines.

- Unless kids from Belleville or Bloomfield or Glen Ridge or other communities or Harrison, whatever, could go to Newark and they could and Newark kids could go, wow.

That is an interesting issue.

We'll follow that.

Hey, can we shift gears dramatically and talk about charter schools.

Help us understand this.

I have a little bit of background charter schools.

'Cause my dad started the Robert Treat Academy in Newark, one of the first charter schools in the state.

My late dad, my my sister, Teresa, was the principal there for many years.

I know charter schools fairly well.

I also know the Murphy administration has, and correct me if I'm wrong, they're saying, listen, let's call a time-out.

Let's not just keep expanding charters schools or having more charter schools or having existing charters expand to high schools or other grades.

Why is the administration doing that?

A, and B, what are the implications of that?

- So what the administration is saying that they have to take a closer look at, first of all, whether the schools actually need more space because when you do look at the numbers, some of them haven't reached the capacity they're allowed to, so they have kind of seats left over from the previous approval.

And then they're also saying that they're questioning whether they're serving students with the greatest needs, which in Newark, it is the case that the charter schools serve fewer students who are still learning English and who have disabilities than the traditional schools.

- Hold on.

I'm sorry for interrupting, Patrick.

Charter schools are public schools, but they're not exactly like public schools because their selection process, and I know at the Robert Treat Academy, there's a lottery.

Meaning they're different from public schools 'cause "public" public schools take everyone.

Charter schools do not.

Is that a fair assessment?

- Well, they are legally required to accept every student, whatever their needs are.

The question is whether families are applying, and some don't apply to these schools because they've heard that they don't have the necessary services for their kids.

- Okay.

And the Murphy administration is saying what?

Let's slow down the expansion of charter schools?

- Yeah.

They're saying let's slow down.

Because under the previous governor, Christie, there was a pretty rapid expansion and Newark was kind of ground zero for that.

Today, it went from about 1% a couple decades ago of students in Newark went to charters, to more than 30% today.

So it's a huge expansion.

And so they're saying, yes, let's slow this down.

And I think people might not realize this.

The Murphy administration has approved a few expansions and they've renewed these schools.

So they're allowing them continue to operate.

It's not like they're closing schools but they are in some cases saying, yes we're gonna hold off and giving you more space - Our last topic, and we have Patrick Wall, who you can see on a regular basis, read his stuff at Chalkbeat Newark, and also check him out on a regular basis on NJ Spotlight News.

Real quick, before I let you go.

Governor Murphy's budget address talked about state funding of public schools.

What is the biggest, most significant decision being made, or proposal, from the governor on state funding of our public schools, please Patrick?

- I think the biggest takeaway is just that they're getting a lot more money.

He's increasing funding directly to districts by about $650 million this year.

Newark is getting the biggest share of it.

- But some are losing it.

Some like Jersey City are losing state funding.

Go ahead please.

- Some are losing.

I think about 180 districts out of the 600 are gonna be losing some.

So it is true that not all districts are, but I think across the board most could be getting more.

And they also are setting aside quite a bit of money for school facilities projects, so to improve buildings and create new ones - Patrick Wall, I wanna thank you for joining us.

We'll continue to talk with you because educational issues, particularly the question of learning loss, the question of the emotional and social issues that children have been dealing with two years plus into this pandemic are critically important.

Patrick, I wanna thank you as always for being with us.

Appreciate it.

- Thanks again for having me.

It's always a pleasure.

- You got it.

We'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by Jennifer Papa, who joins us once again; she was with us a while back.

She's the founder and executive director of a great organization called City Green.

Good to see you, Jennifer.

- Hi, Steve.

- Tell everyone what City Green is, as we put the website up.

- Sure, City Green is an urban farming and gardening nonprofit organization, so we work to create increased access to healthy food, and garden spaces, and beautiful natural spaces in our communities.

- You know, we met you through the Russ Berrie award program for Making a Difference.

You won the award in 2013, if I'm not mistaken?

- That's right.

Yes.

- And you've gone on to do really great things since we first met each other.

In fact, there's a $500,000 grant that City Green has been awarded from the United States Department of Agriculture to do, what exactly?

- So, this is a grant for what is called our nutrition incentive program.

It's called the Good Food Buck program.

So, this funds a program that supports shoppers when they spend their SNAP dollars.

So SNAP stands for Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.

We formally know it as food stamps.

And so, when people spend these federal food benefit dollars at a participating Good Food Buck program partner which is a farmer's market or supermarket, they get twice as many fruits and vegetables for every dollar they spent of their SNAP dollars.

- Jennifer, help people understand.

We do a lot of programming around urban issues, if you will; actually we're gonna be kicking off a series called Urban Matters in the near future.

Why does the issue, or the issues, that you're talking about, why do they disproportionately matter in urban areas?

Explain that to folks.

- Sure, well, the program is statewide, so we work with anybody who's spending SNAP dollars.

But in the urban centers, it's even more important, because there are much less access to healthy food stores and retailers, and obviously farmers markets.

So this way, when people have these federal food benefits, they can, you know, use this and get access to healthy food that they can't find at their local corner store.

- You know, every not-for-profit, your organization, our organization, as it relates to COVID, two years plus, we struggled fundraising.

It's just-- any not-for-profit, any business, but a not-for-profit especially...

The issue of food insecurity, and more and more people becoming food insecure, how has it changed the work of City Green?

- I think two things.

One is that people seem to understand our work a lot more.

It's much clearer to people, you know, why this work is necessary.

Because this really helps people in their pocketbooks.

They actually get an extra dollar worth of food for every dollar that they're spending at the store.

So even in tough economic times, people could access healthy, nutritious food, and not rely on, you know, lower-priced processed food.

In the pandemic, it was also about local food, because there were supply-chain issues and things like that.

And so, people came to us and really started having an understanding of why this local source of food is important.

- I'm gonna ask you, in a second, about the fundraising aspect of this, 'cause the Russ Berrie Foundation, also the Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey, two organizations that support us as well, they have talked to us about you, as well, The Healthcare Foundation.

But, I'm curious about this, before I go into the fundraising part of it, your passion for this work comes from where?

- Hmm, I just really believe that everybody should have access to healthy, good food.

I feel like it should not be a right or, like, that it is a right, and should not just be a privilege, that anybody anywhere should be able to feed their family the kinda food that they find culturally relevant, and that they find is nutritious for their families.

I just feel really strongly about that.

And, you know, this is one way, besides other programs we run, like community gardening or school gardening where people can be in touch with their food, and really make choices that are right for them.

- What do you mean, school gardening?

- We work with schools all over the state of New Jersey to build school gardens and train teachers to be able to run educational programs in them.

So we're starting right with Farm to Preschool, little kids growing vegetables.

We always say that if they grow it, they eat it, you know?

They pull a carrot outta the ground, they're more likely to eat it.

And so, this is putting kids in touch with fresh, healthy food, right from the start.

- That's awesome, again, let's put up the website for City Green.

Go back to the fundraising question.

I've said this on the air many times, we spend a lot of time...

It would be great if we could just produce programming in connection with our colleagues at public television.

It would be great if we could just do that, but we can't.

The old expression, you know better than I do, "No money, no mission," right?

- No, that's right.

(laughs) - How much time do you spend raising money, and how important is that, now more than ever, for a not-for-profit like yours?

- It's incredibly important.

And, you know, we have the person who's running our food access, Good Food Buck program is also writing grants.

The two of us write all of the grants, and we write the grants to the USDA, and we had to raise a dollar-per-dollar match to leverage that federal funding for that USDA grant.

So that's where Russ Berrie Foundation, and the Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey, and Partners for Health Foundation, and many others came in.

We had to go to all of our traditional funders, and find new ones to get them all on board.

Because without that dollar-per-dollar match we wouldn't've been able to leverage that $500,000 grant.

- That's right, and you also got a $250,000 grant, what is that grant, and what is that for?

- This is for an entirely different project, It's from the State of New Jersey Department of Human Services, Division of Disabilities.

And so, this was to make our location in Clifton, We have a Farm Eco-Center there, on Grove street in Clifton.

And we have a learning farm, and we have public programming there.

This is to make it more accessible.

We're putting in all-new paver pathways, we're building raised beds that are more accessible to people who have mobility issues.

It's just gonna be an incredible benefit so that all of our programming can be accessible, no matter what your ability.

- And what did you call it, the- - Really excited about that.

- I'm sorry for interrupting, there's a little bit of a delay.

Jennifer, what'd you call it, a farm ecosystem?

- Farm Eco-Center is the name of- - Is the name, I'm sorry.

- Yeah, The City Green Farm Eco-Center is our headquarters in Clifton.

- Important stuff- - And so, this grant, it's called Inclusive Healthy Communities for the State of New Jersey.

- Inclusive Healthy Communities.

If people wanna find out more, one more time we'll put up City Green's website.

Jennifer, cannot thank you enough for joining us.

But way more importantly, for the work that you and your colleagues at City Green are doing.

Thank you so much, Jennifer.

- Thank you, thank you so much for the opportunity to share it.

- You got it, stay with us, we'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by Brendan Gill, who is a commissioner.

Used to be called a freeholder.

Now he's a commissioner in Essex County, and also President & CEO of the BGill Group.

Good to see you, Brendan.

- Thank you for having me, Steve.

- Brendan, one of the reasons we had you on, one of the biggest reasons is that you've been talking a lot about, we're gonna show some pictures to try to make this come alive, of something called the Essex Hudson Greenway.

What is this nine mile strip of unused rail line, and why does it matter so much?

Talk about it as we show some pictures.

- Thanks, Steve.

The Essex Hudson Greenway is a nine mile, old freight rail line, starts in Montclair, goes through Bloomfield, Belleville, Glen Ridge, into Newark, and eventually ends in Jersey City.

And what this project is, is an opportunity to take this unused freight rail line, and turn it into a passive recreation trail that would connect both suburban and urban communities, two counties in Essex and Hudson, and really be New Jersey's version of the High Line.

- Over in New York, over on the west side?

- On the west side, yeah.

It's gonna be very similar project.

- Break down, Brendan, if you could, some of the most specific, tangible benefits of this greenway.

- So first, just a promotion of open space, Steve, the ability to have a pathway, a nine mile pathway in a largely urban area that could be used for walking, hiking, running, all types of activities.

Think of a high school needing a place for a cross country meet.

Think about a person who just wants to take a nice five to seven mile bike ride along a pathway with opportunities to stop.

Then you actually also have the economic development, Steve, that's part of this project as well, because along this Greenaway, within these respective communities, there are grade crossings and other access points, so this line itself is actually, if you were to draw a circle around it, is within a mile or two of all types of different economic centers, different access to downtowns, obviously, access to Newark and to Jersey City, which is a great thing, and eventually when it's completed, access into Manhattan the vision as well, 'cause if somebody wanted to either bike ride on down to Jersey City, hop on the path into lower Manhattan, that that would be a viable option for them if they wanted to commute in that way.

So there's just all types of tangible benefits to this project that we're really, really excited about.

- So let me try to understand, and also have other people understand it.

The project is sponsored by whom, meaning is it a county initiative?

I know the governor is supportive of it.

Who's in charge?

- So great question.

So Norfolk Southern actually owns the line right now, and they have entered into an agreement with the Open Space Institute, which is a nonprofit which oversees projects like this all over the country, for the Open Apace Institute to purchase the land.

So the real, an additional tangible benefit is the idea that if we purchase all this land together, and one entity does it, that we have the chance to develop it, and from a regional approach, right?

Rather than just Norfolk Southern selling these bits and pieces of this rail line off to one municipality versus another, and maybe one keeps open space, the other develops it.

So who owns it right now is Norfolk Southern, but they're in the process of transferring those rights to the Open Space Institute.

In order to make that transaction happen, to make it more or less complicated for you, in order to make that transaction happen, the state of New Jersey did something, and governor Murphy's administration did something huge.

They put a $65 million, essentially, downpayment from the state of New Jersey to make this land transaction happen.

So eventually, I think the vision is that it will be a part of our state park system.

It'll be our first state park since Liberty State Park, once all the land, it's a complicated land transaction once all of that's finished, but the main thing right now is that Norfolk Southern is in the process of selling it, and between the Open Space Institute, the state of New Jersey, we have a willing buyer.

- Okay, real quick, before I get off this one, 'cause there's another topic I wanna raise.

You said state government.

Does that mean the Department of Environmental Protection will manage it?

- Great, so that's, right now, I think that's the thought.

- Brendan, you keep saying great questions.

I only have questions.

I have no answers.

(both laughing) Well, you're in government.

- Yeah, exactly.

I don't know that we're all in trouble, but the real answer there, Steve, is that some of those questions aren't answered yet, so.

- Okay.

- I think right now, the really the news here that has been made most recently on the project is that the state's investment, this project is no longer a matter of if.

It's a matter of when, and whether it's housed at the state DEP, or with the nonprofit, all yet to be seen.

A lot of collaboration on that, but all good news for us as a state, for sure.

- Let me do this.

We had Essex County executive Joe DiVincenzo.

Look at steveabado.org, you'll see a previous interview.

The county was recognized across the state, and really across the nation for its COVID response for two years plus into this pandemic as we're taping.

Real quick, a minute or less, what were the keys, would have been the keys to that successful, well-run, by any reasonable standard, initiative in Essex County to get people tested, vaccinated, et cetera?

- So two components of that, Steve.

One, the leadership of our county executive, first and foremost, cannot be understated.

He was prepared, ahead of the curve on having us prepare for vaccination sites.

So before a vaccine was even available, Steve, we were having meetings at the local level, the governmental level to say "When this vaccine comes, how are we gonna get it out?

What kind of technology are we gonna use?

What do those logistics look like?"

And when the vaccine came, we were ready to go.

And both, if you talk to anybody up and down this state, and really across the country, Essex County distinguished itself, both in the area of testing and vaccination delivery because of a lot of early planning, and great work from our health department, and all of our professionals.

- And to be clear, Essex County has a county executive and a board of commissioners formerly known as freeholders.

Brendan, before I let you go, real quick, our series Democracy at a Crossroads, the graphic will be up on the screen.

How confident are you about our ability, Democrats, Republicans, people who don't know what party, or don't care to affiliate themselves, how confident are you that we, government leaders, those in the media, can actually have our democracy move in a healthier, better direction?

Loaded question, I know - I'm very confident, Steve.

I mean, I have to be confident.

You know, I have a seventh grader and a fourth grader, and we have no choice but to be confident for that next generation.

We definitely have an issue right now around facts before we can get to debate.

That's clearly something that we're struggling with, but I am an optimist by nature, and confident that we will be able to get through what right now are unbelievably challenging times.

Part of it is what we're doing here.

I mean, we have to send a message, and I try to send in all the time, civic engagement is something to be valued, cherished, and participated in, and it's not always easy.

- No, and every time you're with us, I feel a responsibility to disclose something.

One, the B Group is one of the underwriters of what we do in our State of Affairs programming.

But the other much more important disclosure is that your dad taught you about civics and civic engagement.

Dan Gill, Mr. Gill, a 40 plus years public educator in Montclair, Brendan?

- 52 this year, he started.

(chuckling) - I'm realizing how old I am, because our son Nick was in one of his classes for all three years.

To Mr. Gill, and the Gill family, we thank you, Brendan.

Appreciate it.

He taught you civics well.

- Thank you.

Thanks for having me, always.

- That's Brendan Gill.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

PSE&G, Hackensack Meridian Health.

Berkeley College.

The Fidelco Group.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

And by The New Jersey Board of Public Utilities, Clean Energy program.

Promotional support provided by NJBIZ, And by BestofNJ.com.

- Many of New Jersey'’s children have been affected by Covid-19, but now that there'’s a safe and effective vaccine available for children ages twelve and older you can help make COVID-19 history by getting yourself and your child vaccinated.

Let'’s end this pandemic together and help all children get back to being kids.

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