By the River is brought to you in part by the University of South Carolina, Beaufort, Learning In Action, Discovered, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina, Community Foundation of the Lowcountry, Strengthening Community, OSHER Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB, the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

- [Holly] A New York times bestselling author, Patti Callahan Henry, combines intense research and historical fiction to tell the story of the Titanic of the South.

Her book, "Surviving Savannah", follows History Professor Everly Winthrop's quest to recover artifacts from the Pulaski shipwreck, but instead unfolds the story of two extraordinary women aboard the ship.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit By the River.

♪ (lively cello music) ♪ ♪ ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ♪ - Hi there, and welcome to By the River.

You know, it's another beautiful day here at our waterfront studio here in Beaufort, South Carolina.

I'm your host, Holly Bounds Jackson.

This is part of our love letter to Southern writing.

And here we invite powerful storytellers, usually from South Carolina or across the Southeast, and we are so excited today to have Patti Callahan Henry.

And you're a comeback.

Thanks for coming back to us.

- When you invited me a second time, I was like, "Yay."

- Yay!

- 'Cause it is always so great to talk to you.

- Thank you.

And today we're talking about "Surviving Savannah".

There's so many things I love about you, by the way.

- Oh, thank you!

- One of those is that you have obviously fallen in love with the history of our area, of the Bluffton area and Savannah area.

Where did that all begin?

- That's so strange.

Last night I was at a book club and we were talking about this elusive love of a place.

Like, how can you say, "Oh, I love a place."

"I love a city."

"I love."

But I do.

And the reason has never been evident, except for the fact that it feels mystical to me, it feels like home to me, it feels like all these stories live here, it feels full of history, it feels ancient, and it just feels part of who I am.

And I think that sometimes an external geography echoes an internal landscape, and it's different for everybody.

And for me, it's the Lowcountry.

- And this is another one that is historical fiction.

Tell us what we can learn, and what is it about?

What is "Surviving Savannah" about?

- "Surviving Savannah" is in some ways about my love of Savannah and Bluffton and Beaufort County, and all the areas where we are, but the plot is about the sinking of the SS Pulaski in 1838.

It is a lost story to time, and yet it affected people from Bluffton to Beaufort, to Charleston, to Edisto, and especially Savannah.

And when I learned about it, I was stunned that this disaster in 1838 had been lost to time.

And there's loads of reasons why, or reasons we can guess why.

Everything from, well, then the civil war happened, to the history of the people who owned the ship and maybe just kind of wanting to, you know, put it behind them.

And yet this disaster completely changed the face of Savannah.

There's a marker for it and a memorial for it in Edisto.

People from the entire area were on this ship.

Some of the families with the biggest names were on this ship.

And so there's also a modern day storyline, because they have discovered the remains of the ship at the bottom of the ocean, a hundred feet deep, 30 miles off the coast of North Carolina.

And so I wanted to juxtapose modern day Savannah with historical Savannah and show that the finding of this ship melded together with those two histories.

- Something I've heard you say before that I loved is you know when a story wants to be told.

How do you recognize that?

And specifically, how did you recognize that with this story?

- Doesn't it sound strange to say that?

Just like we talk about a love of place, right?

How do we say a story will to want to be told.

- It's like it's telling you, "Tell me!"

"Tell them!"

- It does!

And, you know, most authors that I talk to and am pals with would agree with that.

Sometimes a story bubbles up, you get what we call a Spidey-sense, just a little tingle on the back of your neck and your arms that says this is worth pursuing.

And it doesn't always work out.

Sometimes we have to abandon stories.

But for this story, two of the biggest things that happened that made me feel like it wanted to be told, well, first of all, I had that thing, that Spidey-sense, and I had that after I'd been told about it three separate times.

And it wasn't until the third time that I got that little bit of, "Maybe it's time to tell the story."

- Yeah.

- But the second thing that happened was right when I started doing my research, trying to decide, "Is there a story here?"

Because a shipwreck is interesting, but it's only interesting if we're focusing on someone.

- Right.

- Right.

So I was doing my research.

Who do we want this story to be about?

And I hit on a headline that said, "Remains of the Pulaski have been discovered by Endurance Exploration, a hundred feet deep, 30 miles off the coast of North Carolina."

I did not know anyone was looking for it.

I didn't know it was a wreck that anybody wanted to salvage.

So here I am unearthing the stories of this lost ship, while someone else is over here unearthing the artifacts, the treasure, the gold, the silver, the pocket watches, the jewelry, the candle sticks.

So while they're bringing this up, I was bringing this up, and I knew that it just was time.

- Love that.

And you must've had a great deal of research that went into this.

- Oh, gosh!

- So I'm trying to imagine what this looks like.

Is it you at a computer, or is it you walking all around Savannah, looking at statues and monuments?

Are you in museums, are you in libraries?

Or a little bit of all of it?

- Everything you just said.

But I do have to say that this was my most boots-on-the-ground research of any novel I've written.

"Becoming Mrs Lewis" was an incredible amount of research, but a lot of that research was reading.

Both of them had written so much.

But for this, it was boots-on-the-ground, meaning Ships of the Sea Museum in Savannah, which everybody needs to go, it is a hidden little gem in Savannah, with the complete maritime history of this area.

So the Ships of the Sea, they had a to-scale model of the Pulaski, and a lot of history that I couldn't find anywhere else.

What was difficult for this book was that there isn't one seminal book about the Pulaski, the ship the Pulaski.

There's plenty of literature about Pulaski as a man, but not this ship.

So Ships of the Sea Museum, the Georgia Historical Society, digging through boxes and files and folders, and reading.

Then the Owens-Thomas House, which is at Telfair in Savannah, that provided me with an immense amount of information and research.

So this was very much interviews, old ledgers, old boxes full of newspaper articles, things like that, to try and get to the bottom of what happened that night and what it means for us today.

There was not even a complete Manifest for the ship.

There was not even a list of every passenger on the ship that had ever been compiled in one place, until I started my research.

- Sounds like a lot of work.

- I know, but it was fascinating.

And I once said maybe if I had known how much research it would take, maybe I wouldn't have written it.

- [Holly] Would you have taken it on?

- And when I first was asked that question, I said I might not have.

But I've changed my mind.

You know, knowing that this book is now in the world, and that they're pulling up even more treasure now, and that I have done what I intended to do, which is honored the perished and the survivors on that ship whose stories had been lost.

- And you have taught so many people in this area about somewhere where they live that they didn't even know.

Have you gotten some feedback from readers on that?

- I have, and it's one of my favorite things.

Because one of the best parts about writing historical fiction is finding just this tidbit of information that shifts your perspective.

So if I can find this one little piece of information that flips the story on its head for you and allows you to see the place you live in a new way, an event in a new way, your family, or even yourself, in a new way as your history shifts beneath you.

I did a podcast for this book, and I interviewed this fascinating woman who was the head of the Owens-Thomas House in Savannah.

And she has this great phrase called emancipating the past, which I love, because if we can find the information that rakes that piece of history free so that you're not just seeing it from a legend or a mythological perspective, but seeing it from every single angle.

And as we look at pieces of history from every point of view, we can emancipate the past from its mythology and its legends.

- Now, one thing that I think is fascinating, and I always think about this, is, "She used to be a nurse!"

And this seems so different, but let's talk about how they might be the same.

In what ways are your two jobs similar?

- Wow, that's a good question.

- 'Cause there was some research involved in the nursing.

- Yes.

So when I was in graduate school I was a research nurse, and I should have, if I'd been a little more self-aware, realized how much I loved research, because that was my favorite job as a nurse, was being a research nurse.

And what, like I said, finding that one piece of information, - It's that digging and-- - that might...

The digging- - - Oh, my gosh!

- And the reading, and the interviewing, and the taking apart the data and seeing how it might be different.

So I love that.

But the other part I think, and I talk about this a lot because people say, "Oh, they're so different."

They're not.

And there are a lot of authors who were once nurses and social workers.

Sue Monk Kidd was a nurse, Elizabeth Berg was a nurse.

- Oh, yeah, 'cause you're hearing lots of stories.

- Yes.

Diane Chamberlain was a social worker and a psychiatrist.

So I think that it's about being involved in the human drama.

So if you're a nurse or a social worker or a doctor, and you're in that field, you are constantly around human beings at their breaking points.

So to have some empathy, to understand human drama and be able to enter into that, is a skill I think is really necessary for, also, a novelist.

- Was it during that time when you were in that real human drama that you felt, "I need to start writing some of this down," or you felt that tug at all?

- No.

And I have never written a nursing story.

That doesn't mean I never will, but 16 books and I have never written a Robin Cook, a novel set in a hospital, and the inner workings of... You know, Yes, I've had some scenes in a hospital, which means they're realistic, but I've never written a story about a nurse.

So one day I might, but my urge to write had been there since I could hold a crayon.

So it was just one of those things-- - It was meant to be.

- that slowly bubbled up through time until I finally said, - You finally answered the call and went, "Hey, this is what I'm supposed to do."

- That's a great way to say it.

That's a great way to say it.

- Well, another thing that I love is that, basically, I don't know, well over 50% of the authors who sit in that chair somehow say your name.

- Oh, that is awesome!

- Whether it's the fact that you have helped them as a writer, you're one of those, you know, critics or listening ears, or you are Hotel Henry, (laughing) housing them in some way, but I love so much the way that you all have, y'all have this little group and you feed off of each other and that sort of thing.

And it seems like it's really, really gotten stronger during COVID.

- Absolutely.

As my friend, Mary Kay Andrews says all the time, "Rising tides float all boats."

Writing is not a competitive sport.

I've never been in a competitive sport.

I'd rather somebody else win so they don't feel bad.

Maybe that's why I was a nurse.

And so people supported me, and still do, as I'm still learning and coming up.

And why wouldn't I do the same for someone else?

And then there's this idea of the interaction between us, because writing is so solitary.

We rarely get to collaborate.

So I'm the kind of person who likes to collaborate.

I'm sharper if I can bounce things off people and brainstorm them.

So if you have a tight-knit group that you trust to show your work, or to say, "I'm stuck," then, you know, rising tides lift all boats.

- Right.

And have you not done something because they said, "I don't think that'll work."

- Oh, yes.

Oh, a hundred percent.

And Mary Kay is the most, "Uh-uh."

You know, the rest of them will be like, so hazy, - Real soft.

- Yeah.

- But she just tells it.

- But one of the things that happened during COVID, like you mentioned, was five of us got together and started something called Friends and Fiction.

- Which has blown up.

- It has been wild.

- So explain that.

- So, in March of 2020, five of us had our book tours canceled.

All of us had books out that spring.

Mine was the paperback of "Mrs Lewis", but theirs were original hardcovers.

And we were whining and lamenting.

You know, if you can remember back then, we didn't know if we were going to be shut down for a month, six months.

- Yeah.

We were supposed to all do something for two weeks, and it was gonna be normal, right?

- Totally fine.

And then it just kept falling like dominoes, right.

And then we realized we were...

So Mary Kay Andrews said, "Let's all get together on a Zoom and figure out what we can do."

And then we had so much fun talking about the book publishing industry, other books.

She said, "Let's put it on Facebook.

People will love hearing us talk about it, and we can't go on the road."

And then we did it on her Facebook, and it kinda blew up.

So we just got our own.

So now we have a live Wednesday night show every week.

Last week was Taylor Jenkins Reid.

We've had Delia Owens, Kristen Hannah, name it.

William Kent Krueger.

And so a live show every Wednesday night on Facebook and YouTube.

And then we have a podcast, and a new podcast comes out every Friday.

We have partnered with a librarian from Cleveland named Ron Block, that everybody loves.

And so it's just grown into this kind of amazing platform to talk about stories and books, and take the place of a lot of the in-person stuff we're missing.

- Really sharpen your tech skills too, I guess.

- Oh, gosh!

(Holly laughing) - Yeah.

Okay.

And you have all these people, thousands, who are watching and stuff.

Tell me about the interaction you get that's a little bit in a different way than you used to with the reader.

- You know, there's nothing that can replace in-person.

You know, I have a book out in October and I'm hoping to be on book tour.

One is planned, so hopefully the dominoes won't fall again.

But we have built such a community, or the readers, actually, have built the community.

We just showed up, this Field of Dreams type thing.

I think we have 50,000 members now.

- That's incredible.

- Incredible.

They have spouted off their own Book Club that's 8,000 members.

- Oh, don't you love that?

- It's amazing.

And it's not because of us, we were nothing but an impetus.

It's because it's a community of readers, and all they want to talk about is what they're reading, why they do and don't, they ignore us for the most part.

(Holly laughing) It's like we provided the house and they showed up, and now they're having their own party.

So, yeah, it's very much about readers and books and stories.

And they love The Inside Scoop, and it's been amazing.

- Oh yeah, that's a fun part, getting a little inside scoop.

Tell us what's next.

- For me, what's next is-- - Something's coming in October.

Tell us about that.

- Yes.

On October 19th, there is a book coming out called "Once Upon a Wardrobe".

Do you wanna know about it?

- Of course I do.

- Okay.

The year is 1950.

It is Worcester, England and Oxford, England.

There is a young boy named George, who lives in a stone cottage with his mom and his dad and his sister, Megs.

George is ill. George's sister, Megs, is a student at Oxford University.

She is a math and physics genius.

Well, October of 1950 is the month and year that a new book burst onto the scene, "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe".

No one knew there would be six more, or that it would become a Narnian Chronicles.

It was just "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe".

Came out quietly on October 17th of 1950.

George, this little boy, is obsessed with this book.

He reads it nonstop.

He hides in his wardrobe.

When his sister comes home from college for the weekend, he says to her, "I know that the author of this book teaches at your university.

I want you to find him and I want you to ask him where did Narnia come from."

She says, "That's absurd.

It's just a story," as if anything is just a story, and, "It's just imagination, and I am not bothering this very important man."

But she loves her brother, and so she does bother him.

She tracks down CS Lewis and she asks him, "Where did Narnia come from?"

And he doesn't answer her the way you think he might.

He answers her with stories from his life.

Ones of darkness, one of lightness, one of sorrow, ones of joy.

And Megs and George end up on a grand adventure.

- Wow.

- [Patti] So that is what it's about.

- What is it with you and CS Lewis?

You're just enthralled.

- I don't know if I can explain why, but I can say that his writings have probably impacted my life more than anybody else's work.

This book a little bit grew out of "Becoming Mrs Lewis".

And I wrote "Mrs Lewis" as much out of respect and fascination with CS Lewis, but more so out of respect and fascination with his wife, Joy Davidman.

And so when I was writing that book, I was writing about her and from her point of view, but I was having to do a lot of research about Lewis, and I could see these breadcrumbs in his life that I knew were in Narnia.

For example, he used to hide in his attic when he was a child, with his brother, and they made up a land called Boxen, made out of talking animals, half human, half animal.

A mouse.

And I could see these breadcrumbs, and I'd never heard anybody talk about those.

And I didn't want a logical list, I wanted to show the parts of his life that end up in Narnia.

- Again, a story that has to be told, wants to be told.

What are you reading these days?

You're mighty busy.

- I am, and I'm reading-- - You're probably writing a whole lot, but-- - I'm reading so many great books.

And because of the show, I'm reading outside what I would normally read, and I'm loving that.

I'm reading who our guests are coming on.

So one book I'm reading right now as an early copy is "When Ghosts Come Home" by Wiley Cash.

It comes out in September.

- Oh, yeah, had him.

- I know.

- Oh, love him.

It is so good.

It's so good.

One of my favorite books of the year was not one of the guests on the show, but was on the podcast, and it is "We begin at the end", by Chris Whitaker.

I just loved that book.

And of course, Kristin Harmel's new one, "Forest of Vanishing Stars".

I loved Paula McLain's new one, "When the Stars go Dark".

They both have stars in their title, and I was fighting for that.

So, yes, and then everyone from Friends and Fiction, Kristy Woodson Harvey's new one, "Under the Southern Sky".

And she has a Christmas book coming out, called "Christmas in Peachtree Bluff".

And then Mary Kay Andrews's new one is called "The Newcomer".

And she has a Christmas book called "The Santa Suit".

And then of course, Mary Alice's, especially her new one, "The Islanders", her middle grade novel, just a beautiful book for kids.

- Yes, they're on this season, her and Angela May.

I love that.

What a cool story.

- And her and Angela wrote that together.

It's an amazing-- - Yeah, wasn't it neat?

I love that collaboration.

- I do too.

Okay, so I'm totally shifting gears here, but before we go, I want to ask you this question.

We just kind of happened to have this question this year that has seemed to come up, and it's about teachers, and people who've inspired you along the way.

So can you think of anyone who, maybe a grade school teacher, or anybody, educator in some way, coach, someone in school growing up, who has inspired you in some way, and maybe you think... Like, I have this professor who, I hear his voice and saying these certain-- - Do you really?

- Oh, yes.

(laughing) - [Patti] That's amazing.

You're very lucky.

- So do you have any of those?

Can you think of anyone?

- I wish I could think of, you know, because I was in nursing school, it's all medical, but I have this very distinct memory of being in third grade.

I didn't know you were going to ask this question, and this memory just flew into my head.

And I can't remember her name, but I can see her.

She had a very 1960s kind of bouffanty hairdo I am positive now it was a wig, but I didn't know that as a kid.

And we would have free time in class for reading.

And I would read during, and some people would do puzzle, whatever.

I would read.

'Cause it was free time, - That's what you loved.

- Of course I was gonna read.

- Right.

And I remember one time she said, she announced that free time was over.

She said, "Everybody stop.

Come back to your math worksheet," whatever we were doing.

And I didn't hear her.

And I kept reading.

And she said, "Patti, free time is over."

And I was like, "Oh, oh, sorry."

And I'm embarrassed and blushing.

I'm hiding my book.

And she looks at the class and she says, "That's how everyone should read.

That you're so lost in a book that you can't hear me."

- You're in a different world.

- And she said, "Read like Patti."

And I have never forgotten it.

And for all my life, when I got in trouble for reading, or, "Get your head out of the clouds," I would think, "Read like Patti."

- "Read like Patti."

- And then my kindergarten teacher wrote on my report card, which still cracks me up.

I'm gonna frame it.

I found it when I was cleaning things out recently.

"Books are very important to Patti."

(Holly laughing) - Yes, they are, very!

- So there's two teachers noticed.

- She knew it.

- Yeah.

- Wow, even at the age of five.

That is really cool.

All right, our time's up.

Buzzer!

- No!

- I know!

I love talking to you.

- I love talking to you.

- This has been really fun.

- Thank you for having me.

- Thank you so much for coming over here.

And I really enjoy seeing and feeling the passion you have for the area in which we live.

So that's really nice.

And thank you everyone for joining us here again for By the River.

We do love having you around.

I'm your host, Holly Jackson.

We're gonna to leave you now to look at our Lowcountry Poet's Corner.

We'll see you next time By the river.

♪ (mellow music) ♪ ♪ ♪ (gentle music) ♪ - [Jazmine] My name is Jazmine Vivas Young, and I will be reading "Break, Break, Break" by Alfred Lord Tennyson.

"Brake, brake, brake On my cold gray stones, O Sea!

And I would that my tongue could utter The thoughts that arise in me.

O, well for the fisherman's boy, That he shouts with this sister at play!

O, well for the sailor lad That sings in his boat on the bay!

And the stately ships go on To their haven under the hill; But O, for the touch of a vanishing hand, And the sound of a voice that is still!

Break, break, break at the foot of thy crags, O Sea!

But the tender grace have a day that is dead Will never come back to me.

♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ♪ By the River is brought to you in part by the University of South Carolina, Beaufort, Learning In Action, Discovered, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina, Community Foundation of the Lowcountry, Strengthening Community, OSHER Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB, the Pat Conroy Literary Center.