[INSPIRING MUSIC] - HELLO AND WELCOME TO "COMIC CULTURE".

I'M TERENCE DOLLARD, A PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF MASS COMMUNICATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT PEMBROKE.

MY GUEST TODAY HAS HAD A LONG CAREER WITH DC COMICS AS A WRITER, AN EDITOR, A PRESIDENT AND A PUBLISHER.

PAUL LEVITZ, WELCOME TO "COMIC CULTURE".

- THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

PLEASURE TO MEET YOU, TERENCE.

- PAUL, I MENTIONED THAT YOU HAD THE ROLE AS PUBLISHER, AND I'VE SPOKEN TO A LOT OF WRITERS, I'VE SPOKEN TO ARTISTS, I'VE SPOKEN TO EDITORS, BUT I'VE NEVER SPOKEN TO A PUBLISHER.

SO WHAT IS IT THAT A PUBLISHER DOES, ESPECIALLY AT A BIG IMPRINT LIKE DC COMICS?

- WELL, IT'S AN AMBIGUOUS TITLE IN THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY, [COUGHS] EXCUSE ME.

IN BOOK PUBLISHING, IT TENDS TO BE THE JOB WHERE THE CREATIVE AND BUSINESS SIDES OF THE COMPANY HAS COME TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME.

IN MAGAZINE PUBLISHING, IT'S USUALLY THE MAN OR WOMAN IN CHARGE OF THE ADVERTISING SALES FOR THE COMPANY.

IN COMICS, IT'S BEEN ALMOST EVERYTHING.

IT'S BEEN A KIND OF HONORARY TITLE FOR THE MOST SENIOR CREATIVE PERSON, JIM LEE CARRIES IT AT DC COMICS THESE DAYS AS THE CHIEF CREATIVE OFFICER.

I DON'T THINK HE HAS ANY OPERATING BUSINESS RESPONSIBILITIES OR DAY-TO-DAY CREATIVE RESPONSIBILITIES, BUT HE'S KIND OF THE RESIDENT GENIUS IN THE PLACE.

IN MY TIME, IT REALLY WAS THE EQUIVALENT OF CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE BUSINESS OPERATIONS FOR THE COMPANY.

- NOW, THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME, HAVING LOOKED OVER YOUR BACKGROUND A LITTLE BIT, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE A BUSINESS BACKGROUND.

SO HOW DO YOU SORT OF GROW INTO THAT ROLE, MOVING ON FROM, YOU KNOW, WRITER AND EDITOR TO, YOU KNOW, TAKING ON THAT BUSINESS END OF THE OPERATION.

- WHEN JENETTE KAHN MOVED TO BEING PRESIDENT OF DC COMICS IN 1981, THE TWO OF US HAD ALREADY BEEN WORKING TOGETHER FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS, WE HAD A GREAT WORKING RELATIONSHIP.

SHE WAS NOT ORIENTED TO OR INTERESTED IN DAY-TO-DAY BUSINESS OPERATIONS.

I HAD ALREADY BECOME SORT OF THE NUTS AND BOLTS GUY ON HER TEAM.

I WAS 24.

I HAD SOME BACKGROUND IN BUSINESS TRAINING, 'CAUSE I HAD ORIGINALLY INTENDED TO GET A FIVE-YEAR BACHELOR'S, MASTER'S IN BUSINESS.

SO I'D TAKEN COST ACCOUNTING AND ALL OF THE SORT OF BASIC TOOL COURSES BEFORE DROPPING OUT TWO YEARS BEFORE, AND THE PARENT COMPANY DIDN'T REALLY THINK IT MATTERED.

DC WASN'T A BIG BUSINESS, THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF OPTIMISM THAT IT COULD BECOME A BIG BUSINESS.

THE GOAL WAS BASICALLY, "COULD YOU GUYS JUST NOT SCREW IT UP?"

AND, YOU KNOW, "WE OWN THESE PROPERTIES, "WE'RE GONNA EXPLOIT THEM "THROUGH THE OTHER SIDES OF OUR COMPANY.

JUST, YOU KNOW, LET THIS PUBLISHING COMPANY BE RELATIVELY HARMLESS AND QUIET IN A QUARTER.

AND SO, THERE WAS NO OBJECTION TO HER PUTTING A 24 YEAR OLD IN CHARGE OF THE BUSINESS SIDE OF THE COMPANY.

IT WAS KIND OF ABSURD AND KIND OF AN ACCIDENT, YOU KNOW, TO FIND ON THAT LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, PRESENTING BEFORE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF WARNER COMMUNICATIONS BUDGET PRESENTATIONS, WHERE, LIKE, THERE HAD TO BE SIX OR EIGHT PEOPLE THERE AROUND THE TABLE, MAKING THE EQUIVALENT IN MODERN TERMS OF FIVE TO $10 MILLION A YEAR SALARIES.

AND, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE KID SAYS, "YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA MAKE PUBLISHING PROFITABLE NEXT YEAR, "THAT WOULD BE GOOD.

"AND THEN, YOU'LL GIVE US MORE RESOURCES TO WORK WITH."

"ALL RIGHT, KID, YOU KNOW, "WE'LL TALK TO YOU NEXT YEAR "AND WE'LL SEE IF YOU ACTUALLY PULL IT OFF."

- WELL, IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE '80S AT DC COMICS IS A TIME WHEN THEY DO START TO PULL IT OFF.

AND FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, YOU HAD QUITE A LARGE ROLE, NOT ONLY WRITING A VERY STORIED RUN OF THE "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES", BUT ALSO RECRUITING TALENT FROM ALL ACROSS THE COMICS WORLD TO COME AND WORK FOR DC.

SO I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU CAN ATTRACT SOMEONE LIKE A GEORGE PEREZ OR A MARV WOLFMAN TO COME TO DC AND START TELLING STORIES WITH YOUR CHARACTERS?

- GIVING ME THE CREDIT FOR IT IS SORT OF LEANING TOO HEAVILY ON WIKIPEDIA.

WE HAD A WONDERFUL TEAM AT DC IN THE '80S.

JENETTE AS THE LITERALLY FEARLESS LEADER OF THE COMPANY, A WOMAN WITH TERRIFIC CREATIVE COURAGE AND INTELLIGENCE.

VICTOR DANO FOR MOST OF THAT TIME WAS RUNNING THE EDITORIAL DEPARTMENT.

JOE ORLANDO, ANOTHER GREAT CREATIVE MIND, HANDLING OUR SPECIAL PROJECTS, AND I'M SORT OF SWEEPING UP AFTER THE ELEPHANTS AND MAKING SURE EVERYTHING RUNS ON TIME, AND THAT WE ACTUALLY MANAGE TO MAKE A PROFIT IN THE PROCESS.

YOU LURE CREATIVE PEOPLE TO WORK FOR YOUR COMPANY, BY CREATING AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE THEY BELIEVE THEIR WORK WILL BE RESPECTED, WHERE THEIR WORK WILL BE SUPPORTED AND WHERE YOU'RE DOING THINGS THAT INTEREST THEM.

CREATIVE PEOPLE LOVE TO BE PART OF A LARGER WHOLE.

SO EACH TIME THAT WE SUCCEEDED IN HAVING MARV AND GEORGE LAUNCH "THE NEW TEEN TITANS", AND IT SUCCEEDED THE WAY THAT IT DID, THAT WAS AN INCENTIVE FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO SAY, "OH, YOU KNOW, WELL MAYBE THAT'D BE A NICE PLACE TO WORK."

IT WAS ALSO A TIME WHEN WE WERE BREAKING HIDEBOUND RULES OF THE INDUSTRY, STARTING ROYALTY SYSTEMS, STARTING BETTER FORMS OF PARTICIPATION FROM THE TALENT, ALL OF THOSE INCENTIVIZED CREATIVE PEOPLE TO GAMBLE MORE.

WELL, AND WHEN THE FIRST ONE SAW THAT, "OH, FRANK MILLER MOVES FROM 'DAREDEVIL' TO DOING 'RONAN', "AND IT'S A MAJOR COMPANY "AND HE'S GOT THE COPYRIGHT IN HIS NAME "AND IT'S BEING PRINTED ON BEAUTIFUL PAPER, "INTERESTING DIFFERENT FORM OF COLOR SEPARATION.

"IT'S TAKING CREATIVE CHANCES.

"WE'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT."

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE STUFF THAT WE DID LOOKS MUNDANE NOW, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE WHEEL SEEMS LIKE IT'S A PRETTY BASIC THING, SOMEBODY HAD TO HAVE THOUGHT OF IT AT SOME POINT.

BUT AT THAT MOMENT IN THE '80S, AN AWFUL LOT OF IT WAS REVOLUTIONARY FOR THE COMICS INDUSTRY.

SOME OF IT WAS BORROWED FROM BOOK PUBLISHING.

SOME OF IT WAS BORROWED FROM MAGAZINE PUBLISHING.

SOME OF IT WAS GENUINE INNOVATION.

BUT IT WAS A TIME OF EXPERIMENTATION AND OF CHALLENGE AND CHANGE, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S AN EXCITING THING TO BE PART OF, AND CREATIVE PEOPLE LOVE TO BE PART OF EXCITING THINGS, IT MAKES THEM MORE THAN THEY ARE.

- AND YOU MENTION CREATIVE PEOPLE, AND YOU YOURSELF ARE A GIFTED WRITER, YOU'VE WRITTEN SOME OF THE MOST, I GUESS, BELOVED STORIES OF THE "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES", AND I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU CAN TAKE A CAST THAT IS ENORMOUS, I MEAN, THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AS A YOUNG READER OF COMICS, WHEN YOU WERE WORKING ON THE BOOK, AT FIRST IT'S A LITTLE INTIMIDATING, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY LEGIONNAIRES.

AND THEN, BY THE TIME YOU READ TWO OR THREE ISSUES, YOU KIND OF KNOW ALL THE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS AND YOU HAD A GREAT WAY OF SORT OF MAYBE PICKING TWO OR THREE TO HAVE AN ADVENTURE AND HAVE A SUBPLOT HERE OR THERE.

SO WHEN YOU WERE WORKING ON "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES", HOW DID YOU SORT OF COME UP WITH A WAY TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE TO NEW READERS LIKE ME?

- THE STRENGTH OF THE BOOK IS THAT DIVERSITY OF CHARACTER.

THE CHALLENGE OF WRITING "SUPERMAN" BY CONTRARY STANDARD, IS YOU KIND OF KNOWS SUPERMAN'LL BE ALIVE AT THE END OF THE STORY, AND LOIS AND JIMMY AND PERRY AND ANYBODY YOU CAN RECOGNIZE, THEY'RE GONNA BE AROUND AND THEY'RE GONNA BE UNCHANGED, EVEN LEX LUTHER IS STILL GONNA BE AROUND.

THE "LEGION" HAD A LARGE ENOUGH CAST AND NO SINGULAR STAR, OTHER THAN WHEN SUPER BOY WOULD BE WITH THEM, SO THAT YOU COULD SCREW AROUND WITH ANYBODY'S LIFE.

SO YOU COULD CHANGE PEOPLE'S LIVES, AND THAT MAKES FOR BETTER STORY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR LIVES.

WE FALL IN LOVE, WE FALL OUT OF LOVE.

WE GET SICK, WE RECOVER, WE DON'T RECOVER.

SOMEONE WE LOVE DIES.

YOU BEGAN TO HAVE MUCH MORE TO WORK WITH IN THAT PROCESS.

THE OTHER THING IS SOMETHING THAT IN TEACHING I LIKEN TO THE "POKEMON" PHENOMENON.

MY YOUNGEST WAS OF THE RIGHT AGE TO BE DEAD CENTER OF "POKEMON", AND HE MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN ALL 150 POKEMON, BUT HE KNEW THAT CHARMANDER TURNS INTO CHARLIZARD, TURNS INTO CHARPUPPY, AND HOW ALL THOSE DYNAMICS WORK.

THAT'S SECRET KNOWLEDGE.

AND WHEN YOU'RE A CERTAIN AGE, 10, 12, 15 YEARS OLD, IT'S REALLY COOL TO KNOW STUFF THAT YOUR PARENTS DON'T KNOW.

AND THE "LEGION" HAD SO MUCH OF THAT, YOU KNOW?

YOU PROBABLY KNEW THE SECRET IDENTITY NAMES OF THE LEGIONNAIRES AND WHAT PLANET THEY WERE FROM AND WHAT SUPERPOWER THEY HAD, EVEN IF THEIR NAME WAS NOT A TRANSPARENT NAME, YOU KNOW, "COSMIC BOY'S GOT MAGNETIC POWERS?

"OH, OKAY, I CAN REMEMBER THAT ONE."

SO THAT'S PART OF THE ASSETS I HAD TO WORK WITH.

AND I GUESS I DID IT WELL, 'CAUSE I'M WELL REMEMBERED FOR IT, WHICH THRILLS ME.

AND, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE STUFF THAT I DID IS STILL IN PRINT 40 YEARS LATER, WHICH ASTOUNDS ME, AND THAT WAS COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE AT THE TIME WHEN I DID IT.

SO IT'S KIND OF AMAZING TO COME BACK AND SAY, "OH, WELL YOU WROTE SOMETHING THAT STANDS UP "AND YOU HELPED SET UP THE SYSTEM "SO THAT IT COULD STILL BE READ 40 YEARS LATER."

THAT'S PRETTY COOL.

- YOU HAD THE ABILITY OR NOT THE ABILITY, THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH SOME GREAT COLLABORATORS, FOLKS LIKE STEVE LIDCELL OR DAN JURGENS AND KEITH GIFFEN, WHO, BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU, YOU'D WORKED OUT, AGAIN, SOME OF THESE STORIES THAT ARE STILL IN PRINT, WHETHER IT'S "THE GREAT DARKNESS SAGA" OR THE ONE THAT FOLLOWS IT, THE NAME'S ESCAPING ME RIGHT NOW, "THE CURSE" I BELIEVE, OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES.

SO WHEN YOU'RE WORKING WITH A COLLABORATOR, IS IT SOMETHING WHERE YOU KIND OF GET TOGETHER AND HASH OUT THE IDEAS, OR IS IT SOMETHING WHERE YOU GIVE THEM THE IDEA AND LET THEM WORK ON IT?

WHAT'S THAT COLLABORATION LIKE WHEN YOU'RE WORKING IN A TEAM?

- IN COMICS, IT'S DIFFERENT WITH EACH COLLABORATION, BECAUSE YOUR RELATIONSHIPS MAY BE DIFFERENT, THE DEGREE THAT THE WRITER OR ARTIST CARES ABOUT THE CHARACTER MAY BE DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW, IN THE PEAK YEARS OF WORKING WITH KEITH, WE'D SHOOT A COUPLE OF IDEAS BACK AND FORTH FROM TIME TO TIME WHEN HE WAS DROPPING OFF PAGES, BUT MOSTLY I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR CREATING A ORGANIZED, TYPED PLOT, THAT PERHAPS WOULD RUN THREE OR FIVE PAGES FOR AN ISSUE.

AND KEITH'S DESCRIPTION OF IT IS HE'D READ IT A FEW TIMES ON THE BUS GOING HOME TO NEW JERSEY AND HE'D CRUMPLE IT UP AND THROW IT OUT, AND HE WOULD DRAW AND HE'D COME BACK WITH A STORY THAT MOSTLY RESEMBLED WHAT I HAD PLOTTED, BUT WOULD HAVE A COUPLE OF SCENES OR MOMENTS IN IT THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

AND HE'D HAVE LITTLE LINER NOTES SCRIBBLED IN IT OF WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS GOING ON.

AND SOMETIMES I'D READ HIS LINER NOTES AND SAY, "THAT'S A GREAT IDEA."

AND I'D WRITE SOMETHING BASED ON THAT.

AND SOMETIMES I'D LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "THAT'S AN INCREDIBLY DUMB IDEA."

AND I WOULD WRITE DIALOGUE THAT WAS COMPLETELY OPPOSITE TO WHAT HE HAD INTENDED.

BUT OUR STYLES AT THAT MOMENT, OUR VIEW OF WHAT THE FUTURE WAS, WHAT THE "LEGION" MIGHT BE, WERE COMPATIBLE ENOUGH THAT IT CAME THROUGH IN A WAY THAT WORKED.

EVERY COLLABORATION THAT EXISTS IN COMICS IS DONE DIFFERENTLY.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'LL SEE THE SCHOLARLY ARGUMENTS BACK AND FORTH, PARTICULARLY ABOUT MARVEL IN THE '60S.

YOU KNOW, STAN, JACK, YOU KNOW, IT'S 90, 10, ONE OR THE OTHER, IT'S 99 AND ONE, ONE OR THE OTHER.

AND A PART OF THE ANSWER, HAVING KNOWN BOTH OF THEM, HAVING WORKED WITH BOTH OF THEM AND HAVING WORKED WITH MANY DIFFERENT ARTISTS AND WATCHED MANY DIFFERENT WRITERS AND ARTISTS COLLABORATE IS A LOT OF THE TIME YOU DON'T KNOW YOURSELF.

YOU START INTENDING TO DO ONE THING AND IT MUTATES ALONG THE WAY.

AND WHEN IT'S A GOOD COLLABORATION, ONE-AND-ONE EQUALS THREE.

- NOW, IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT COLLABORATING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF ENTERING THE INDUSTRY AT THE SAME TIME YOU ARE, BUT YOU ALSO HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH SOME OF THE MOST FAMOUS NAMES AT DC, FOLKS LIKE CURT SWAN.

SO WHEN YOU'RE WORKING WITH SOMEBODY WHO'S HAD A CAREER BEFORE YOU EVEN JOINED THE COMPANY, WHOSE WORK YOU MAY HAVE BEEN READING AS A KID, IS THERE ANY INTIMIDATION?

AND HOW DO YOU SORT OF GET THE STORY THE WAY THAT YOU WANT IT WITHOUT FEELING LIKE YOU'RE STEPPING ON THE OLD MAN'S TOES?

- WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHO THE OLD MAN IS IN THAT CASE.

YOU KNOW, IN CURT'S CASE IT WAS, "CURT, I KNOW YOU DON'T WANNA DRAW THE 'LEGION' AGAIN, "BUT I REALLY NEED A FILL-IN ISSUE "AND YOU'VE GOT THE TIME IN YOUR SCHEDULE, "AND I SWEAR I WON'T PUT MORE THAN THREE "OF THE LEGIONNAIRES IN IT AND NOT TOO MANY ALIENS."

"ALL RIGHT."

AND BECAUSE CURT WAS MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE MORE TRADITIONAL FULL SCRIPT APPROACH, RATHER THAN A DRAWING FROM A PLOT AND HAVING THE FREEDOM TO CRUMPLE IT UP A LITTLE BIT, I'D DO THAT ISSUE IN FULL SCRIPT.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS WONDERFUL TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY LIKE CURT, WHO HAD DONE SUCH WONDERFUL ART WHEN I WAS A KID.

I GOT TO WORK WITH MOST OF DC'S BEST ARTISTS IN THEIR HISTORY ON ONE OCCASION OR ANOTHER, AND YOU TRY TO FIND SOMETHING THAT REALLY WENT TO THEIR TALENTS.

CURT SWAN DID HUMAN EXPRESSIONS BETTER THAN PROBABLY ANY COMIC BOOK ARTIST OF HIS GENERATION.

SO I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A STORY THAT'S ALL ABOUT HUMAN EXPRESSIONS.

- THAT IS TRUE ABOUT CURT'S WORK, HE HAD THAT ABILITY TO JUST MAKE SUPERMAN LOOK A CERTAIN WAY, OR TO MAKE COLOSSAL BOY LOOK A CERTAIN WAY, AND YOU COULD JUST KIND OF FEEL THE EMOTION COMING OFF THE PAGE.

YOU ALSO WERE AN EDITOR ON TITLES LIKE "BATMAN".

SO I'M WONDERING WHEN YOU'RE WORKING ON A BOOK LIKE THAT, MAYBE YOU'RE TRYING TO CHANGE THE APPROACH, MAYBE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THE NEW WRITER OR ARTIST TO COME IN.

WHEN YOU TAKE OVER A BOOK, HOW DO YOU SORT OF TACKLE IT?

IS IT SOMETHING WHERE YOU SAY, "I'M GONNA SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE RIGHT NOW "AND GO WITH THE FLOW AND MAYBE MAKE CHANGES LATER ON?"

OR DO YOU JUST SAY, "OKAY, WE'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, "CLEAR HOUSE RIGHT AWAY AND START WITH A NEW TEAM "AND, YOU KNOW, GO IN THIS DIRECTION?"

- IN THE CASE OF "BATMAN", I FIRST WENT AND RE-READ ALL THE BATMAN STORIES TO DATE.

THAT WAS STILL POSSIBLE IN 1978 WHEN I TOOK ON THE BOOK.

NOW, IT WOULD BE A COMPLETE IMPOSSIBILITY TO DO IT.

AND I CRAFTED A SHORT BIBLE, I THINK THE FIRST TIME THE COMPANY HAD A BIBLE FOR THE CHARACTER, OF HOW I SAW THE PIECES FITTING TOGETHER AND WHAT WAS SORT OF GONNA BE THE OFFICIAL HISTORY AND THE OFFICIAL DEFINITIONS OF THE CHARACTER.

I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH THAT THE PEOPLE WORKING ON MOST OF THE BAT BOOKS WERE NOT ONLY TALENTED, BUT WERE FRIENDS, THEY WERE LARGELY MY POKER BUDDIES, LEN WEIN, MARV WOLFMAN, DENNY O'NEIL, MIKE BARR, ALL THE GUYS I HAD PLAYED POKER WITH FOR A MANY NUMBER OF YEARS AT THAT POINT.

I INHERITED "BRAVE AND BOLD", WHICH BOB HANEY HAD WRITTEN LITERALLY SINCE I WAS BORN.

AND THAT WAS MORE CHALLENGING, BECAUSE BOB'S APPROACH, A VERY TALENTED WRITER AND VERY NICE MAN, BUT HIS APPROACH WAS NOT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONTINUITY OF HOW THE OTHER BOOKS WERE WORKING.

SO WE WORKED TOGETHER FOR A NUMBER OF ISSUES, AND THEN I SAID, "HEY, I DON'T KNOW IF I'M RIGHT OR I'M WRONG, BOB, "BUT I'M SITTING IN THE SEAT, "I'VE GOT TO GO WITH WHAT I BELIEVE IN.

"SO HAPPY TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH YOU ON OTHER PROJECTS," I THINK HE WAS WRITING "UNKNOWN SOLDIER" FOR ME AT THAT TIME AS WELL, "BUT I'VE GOT TO GO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION "ON 'BRAVE AND BOLD'."

- AND THAT'S GOT TO BE TOUGH TOO, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AS THE EDITOR, YOU DO OCCASIONALLY HAVE TO PUT, YOU KNOW, THE HEAVY HAND ON SOMEONE WHO MIGHT BE LATE ON A TITLE, WHO MIGHT BE THE WRONG PERSON FOR THE TITLE.

SO HOW DO YOU KIND OF KEEP THAT PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE BURNING THAT PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP?

- MIKE BARR TELLS A FABULOUS STORY THAT ONE OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES IN THOSE YEARS, BEYOND MY OWN TITLES, WAS TO BE SORT OF THE TRAFFIC MANAGER FOR THE FREELANCE TRAFFIC OF DC AND THE ASSIGNMENTS.

AND HE TELLS THE STORY OF A DAY WHEN I'M IN LEN WEIN'S OFFICE, AND WE'RE HAVING A ENORMOUS ARGUMENT OVER SOME ASSIGNMENT, BECAUSE OF THE RELATIVE LATENESS OF THE TALENT AND WHO I WANT TO PUT ON THE BOOK.

AND LEN'S FIERCELY ARGUING FOR THE TALENT THAT HE WANTS ON IT, AND I'M ARGUING FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CAN GET IT DONE ON TIME, AND GOD KNOWS HOW IT RESOLVED.

AND THEN, THE ARGUMENT COMES TO IT'S LULL, AND LEN PERKS UP AND SAYS, "OKAY, WHERE'RE WE GOING FOR LUNCH NOW?"

AND MIKE GOES OVER TO HIM AFTER LUNCH, MIKE WAS HIS ASSISTANT IN THOSE YEARS, AND SAYS, "I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

"YOU KNOW, YOU WERE HAVING SUCH A FIGHT WITH PAUL.

"HOW CAN YOU BE GOING OUT TO LUNCH WITH HIM LIKE THAT?"

AND LEN SAID, "I WASN'T HAVING A FIGHT WITH PAUL, "I WAS HAVING A FIGHT WITH PAUL'S JOB "AND HE WAS HAVING A FIGHT WITH MY JOB."

AND FOR THE MOST PART, THE PROFESSIONALS IN THE FIELD WERE ABLE TO REMEMBER THINGS LIKE THAT.

YOU KNOW, "THIS IS OUR ROLE.

"THIS IS WHAT WE'RE WORKING FOR."

ONCE IN A WHILE, THERE'S SOMEBODY WHO HAD A THIN SKIN AND WOULD ACHE ABOUT BEING YELLED AT ABOUT A DEADLINE.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, PEOPLE WHO WERE LATE ON THEIR DEADLINES, KNOW THEY'RE LATE ON THEIR DEADLINES.

IT'S USUALLY NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE ACTIVELY LAZY, STUFF'S GOING ON IN THEIR LIFE, OR THEY'RE HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING THE RIGHT RESULT.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE STAYED FRIENDS.

- IT SEEMS LIKE IT IS A FINE BALANCING ACT, AND I KNOW SPEAKING WITH MY STUDENTS SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, YOU WANNA TELL THEM SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR ASSIGNMENT, BUT YOU HAVE TO SORT OF REASSURE THEM THAT IT'S NOT PERSONAL, IT'S ABOUT THE WORK AND IT'LL HELP YOU GET BETTER AT IT.

AND SPEAKING OF BETTER, AND THAT'S A TERRIBLE SEGUE, BUT SPEAKING OF BETTER, IN THE 1980S, DC COMICS CATCHES FIRE, AND THERE'S THE MOMENTUM OF THE "CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS", THERE'S THIS A REBIRTH OF "SUPERMAN", AND IT LEADS INTO THIS BIG COLLECTOR SPECULATOR BOOM OF THE EARLY '90S, THROUGH THE '90S.

SO I'M WONDERING, AS YOU ARE KIND OF WATCHING THIS HAPPEN, HOW ARE YOU KIND OF MAKING SURE THAT YOU'RE PUSHING THE RIGHT BUTTONS OR MAKING SURE THAT THE EDITORS WHO ARE DOING THE CERTAIN BOOKS, MAYBE THEY'RE WORKING WITH THE OTHER GROUP WHO'S TRYING TO UPDATE THEIR CHARACTERS, AND MAKE SURE THEY GET ALL THAT CONTINUITY DONE?

AND THEN, MAYBE MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CAN PUBLICIZE WHAT'S HAPPENING, SO THAT WE GET, YOU KNOW, MORE READERS FOR EVERY BOOK?

- YOU MAKE THE BEST DECISION YOU CAN EVERY DAY ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COMES ACROSS YOUR DESK, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOUR BATTING AVERAGE ISN'T GONNA BE PERFECT, AND SOME VERY MEANINGFUL PERCENTAGE OF THE DECISIONS WILL IN RETROSPECT BE WRONG AND YOU'LL HAVE TO FIX IT AGAIN AND CORRECT IT AGAIN.

BUT YOU DO THE BEST YOU CAN, EACH ONE AS IT COMES ACROSS YOUR DESK.

- WE SEE A CHANGE NOW, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, COMICS WERE SOMETHING THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, ENJOYED, BUT YOU REALLY DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT IT, BECAUSE IT WASN'T QUITE PART OF THE POPULAR CULTURE THE WAY IT IS NOW.

SO AS YOU SEE YOUR WORK, CHARACTERS THAT YOU'VE CREATED, GET ADAPTED INTO OTHER MEDIUMS, HOW DO YOU SORT OF, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A GREAT SENSE OF PRIDE, BUT ARE YOU EVER LOOKING AT THAT AND THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY GOT IT WRONG OR THEY GOT IT RIGHT OR THEY GOT IT BETTER THAN YOU GOT IT?

- MOST OF MY CAREER, I WORKED ON PROPERTIES THAT EXISTED BEFORE I GOT THERE.

YOU KNOW, IF I'M WRITING THE "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES", I'M BORROWING FROM JIM SHOOTER, I'M BORROWING FROM ED HAMILTON, I'M BORROWING FROM JERRY SIEGEL, OTTO BINDER, BRILLIANT FIRST STRING PEOPLE WHO WERE PERFORMING, AND I'M NOT DOING EXACTLY THEY HAD IN MIND.

SO WHY SHOULD I EXPECT SOMEBODY WHO FOLLOWS ME TO DO WHAT I HAD IN MIND?

THAT'S THE RULES OF THE GAME, IF YOU'RE SITTING DOWN THAT WAY.

IF YOU HAVE A MOMENT WHERE YOU SEE THEM DOING SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD'VE LIKED TO HAVE THOUGHT OF, YOU KIND OF HIT YOURSELF IN THE HEAD AND SAY, "WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT ONE?"

BUT MOSTLY IT'S JUST LOVELY TO SEE THE CHARACTERS LIVING ON AND STILL BEING A PART OF THE CULTURE.

AND PARTICULARLY THESE DAYS, BEING SO MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT A PART OF THE CULTURE.

YOU KNOW, TO SEE A VERSION OF THE HUNTRESS CHARACTER THAT I HAD A ROLE IN CREATING, ON THE SCREEN IN A MOVIE, THAT'S PRETTY COOL, AND IT'S A NICE CHECK, IT'S A COMBINATION.

- IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT SOME OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE ORIGINAL FORM IN THE COMICS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN KIND OF SEE THE GROUNDWORK THAT WAS USED IN THE FILMS AND WHATNOT.

AND I'M THINKING BACK TO THAT "BIRDS OF PREY" FILM WHERE HUNTRESS DOES APPEAR, IT'S JUST INTERESTING TO SEE, AGAIN, THAT CHANGE IN POP CULTURE, HOW COMICS HAVE BECOME, I GUESS, THE NEW WESTERN IN CINEMA AND ON TELEVISION, THE WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'D WATCHED "GUNSMOKE" OR, YOU KNOW, "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY" YEARS AGO.

I SEE THAT WE PROBABLY HAVE ABOUT FIVE MINUTES OR SO LEFT IN OUR CONVERSATION.

I DID WANNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT SOME OF YOUR WRITING WORK.

YOU MENTIONED THE HUNTRESS, AND YOU CREATED THAT CHARACTER WITH JOE STATON WHEN YOU WERE WORKING ON THE "JUSTICE SOCIETY".

AND I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THOSE EARLY DAYS IN COMICS, WHEN YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, WORKING ON BOOKS THAT WEREN'T EXACTLY TOP TIER AT DC, AND YET STILL, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO EXPLORE YOUR CREATIVE SIDE AND DO SOME REALLY INTERESTING STORYTELLING.

- IT'S THRILLING WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG TO GET A CHANCE TO PLAY WITH THE TOYS.

AND I WAS REMARKABLY LUCKY IN THE MOMENT I CAME INTO THE BUSINESS.

BOTH CREATORS I GOT TO WORK WITH.

AT 17, I GOT TO CREATE "STALKER", WORKING WITH STEVE DITKO AND WALLY WOOD, WHO, ALREADY BY THAT POINT, INCREDIBLE INDUSTRY LEGENDS WHO'VE BEEN LEGENDS FOR MORE YEARS THAN I HAD BEEN ALIVE.

I GOT TO PLAY WITH CHARACTERS LIKE THE "JUSTICE SOCIETY" CHARACTERS, THE "LEGION" CHARACTERS, IT'S AN HONOR AND A THRILL, AND YOU JUST ENJOY IT.

- AND AT SOME POINT YOU STEPPED AWAY FROM WRITING AND AGAIN JUST FOCUSED MORE ON THAT ADMINISTRATIVE SIDE AT DC.

AND I'M WONDERING, THAT DECISION, WHEN YOU DECIDE TO KIND OF BACK AWAY FROM THAT, IS IT SOMETHING WHERE IT'S, YOU KNOW, "SOMEBODY'S GOTTA TAKE CARE OF THIS BUSINESS "AND THE WRITING, YOU KNOW, "SOMEONE ELSE CAN TAKE CARE OF THAT "AND I'LL GET BACK TO IT?"

OR WAS IT MORE OF A PLANNED, YOU KNOW, "I'M GONNA MOVE INTO THIS "AND LET THE YOUNG PEOPLE COME IN "AND DO WHAT THEY'RE GONNA DO."

- I HAD A TWO-YEAR-OLD AND A FOUR-YEAR-OLD AND WRITING WAS USUALLY A WEEKEND JOB, AND I WANTED TO BE OUT THERE ON THE SOCCER FIELD AND DRIVING MY DAUGHTER TO HER DANCE CLASSES, AND YOU CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING IN LIFE, AND SO I TOOK 20 YEARS OFF FROM WRITING.

I THINK IT STUNTED ME TO SOME EXTENT AS A WRITER, I DIDN'T CONTINUE TO DEVELOP THROUGH THAT TIME, BUT IT'S A VERY HAPPY TRADE-OFF.

I HAVE INCREDIBLE KIDS WHO ARE DOING INCREDIBLE THINGS IN THE WORLD, AND I'M THRILLED I GOT TO SPEND TIME WITH THEM IN THEIR CHILDHOOD, ALL THREE OF THEM.

- WELL, THAT'S A GOOD TRADE-OFF INDEED.

I SEE WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.

I DID WANNA ASK JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW.

I KNOW YOU'VE DONE SOME COMICS HERE AND THERE FOR DC, I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAVE ANY PROJECTS THAT ARE COMING UP THAT WE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN LOOKING INTO?

- AT THE MOMENT, I DON'T HAVE AN ANNOUNCED NEXT WRITING PROJECT.

I'VE GOT SOME THINGS I'M WORKING ON, BUT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED.

THE TRADE PAPERBACK OF A SERIES I DID FOR VALIANT, CALLED "THE VISITOR" SHOULD BE COMING OUT IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS, BUT THAT'S WORK I DID A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

THAT'S JUST FINALLY COMING OUT THANKS TO ALL THE DISRUPTIONS OF COVID AND THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OF LIFE.

I SPEND ABOUT HALF MY TIME TEACHING AT COLLEGES AND GRAD SCHOOLS, COMICS AS LITERATURE, WRITING THE GRAPHIC NOVEL, ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CAREER PATH I'VE HAD.

I'M ON THE BOARD OF A MID-SIZED COMIC BOOK COMPANY CALLED BOOM THAT DOES SOME INTERESTING WORK.

AND I DO JUST WEIRD PROJECTS THAT AMUSE ME ALONG THE WAY, I'M VERY LUCKY.

AND I SHOW UP ON STRANGE VIDEO CASTS LIKE THIS, AND TALK ABOUT THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

- WELL, I APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME TO TALK WITH ME TODAY.

I JUST WANNA SAY I'M A BIG FAN OF YOUR RUN ON "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES", AND AS YOU MENTIONED BEFORE WE STARTED, I DO HAVE A LARGE COLLECTION OF THE SUPER POWERS FIGURES.

SO I'M, YOU KNOW, TEAM DC ALL THE WAY.

PAUL, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME OUT OF YOUR DAY TO TALK WITH ME TODAY, IT'S BEEN A TREAT.

- MY PLEASURE, TERENCE.

AND THANKS FOR THE CONTRIBUTIONS TO MY MORTGAGE OVER THE YEARS.

- I'D LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE AT HOME FOR WATCHING "COMIC CULTURE".

WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN SOON.

[INSPIRING MUSIC] "COMIC CULTURE" IS A PRODUCTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MASS COMMUNICATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT PEMBROKE.