- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of State of Affairs with Steve Adubato has been provided by Hackensack Meridian Health.

Keep getting better.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

Valley Bank.

Newark Board of Education.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

Everyone deserves a healthy smile.

Johnson & Johnson.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

The New Jersey Education Association.

And by The Fidelco Group.

Promotional support provided by Meadowlands Media.

A print and digital business news network.

And by Insider NJ.

[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - We're now joined by Paula Franzese, who is Peter W. Rodino Professor of Law at the Seton Hall University and our expert on anything that involves the judiciary.

Good to see you, my friend.

- It's wonderful to see you, Steve.

- You got it.

Paula, put this in perspective.

We're gonna talk about some state judicial issues and then people may have heard there's some federal judicial issues.

We'll talk about what the heck is going on in the state level, that there's an effort on the part of some to amend the state constitution to transfer the authority, follow me on this, folks, to appoint appellate judges to the judiciary currently done by Stuart Rabner, who's the set head of the state Supreme Court to the governor and the Senate.

So appellate court judges would no longer be appointed by the head of the state Supreme Court, but by the governor and the legislature.

What the heck is the problem with that, Paula?

- Well, thankfully it has been tabled, and we're certainly hoping those of us who care deeply in the integrity of the state judiciary and the very simple but heartening fact that the system works, it works very well as it is.

So under the rubric of if it isn't broke, let's not fix it.

We are indeed hoping that what's been floated is squashed.

Right now, it is the chief justice of the New Jersey Supreme Court who elevates experienced trial court judges to the appellate division.

And that's a very good system because it is largely immune from political pressures and political whims and sensibilities and entrusts with the very learned integrity led chief justice, the responsibility to reward excellence and place into the revered appellate division, judges who are really excellent.

New Jersey has one of the finest state judiciaries in the nation, and it is acclaimed for the excellence of the work that it does.

So with all of that in mind, it would seem folly to want to tinker with, let alone seem to politicize the system.

- Okay, so that effort to be clear, is tabled.

- I sure hope so, Steve.

You know what?

It may be me issuing that declaration.

It sure ought to be tabled and we haven't heard much since- - Okay.

- it was floated.

- Okay, so let's shift gears.

Well, it's not even shifting, Paula, it's again, trying to deal with the fact that as we do this program at the end of June, it'll be seen later.

It appears as if a significant number of Americans seriously question how independent the judicial system is, how independent the Department of Justice is on the federal level.

To what degree do you understand that there are a significant number of New Jerseyans and Americans who question our judicial system right now and who believe, as it's been stated by many in very public situations, very high profile people, including our former President Donald Trump, that the Department of Justice and the judiciary is, quote unquote, being weaponized?

That's the word that is used versus oh no, we have a pretty darn independent judiciary and Department of Justice and that is not really an accurate perception of things as I described before.

Talk to us.

- You're certainly right that public confidence in the judiciary seems to have hit all time lows.

It certainly is at its lowest that it has been in the last 50 years.

And as I study that rather disheartening phenomenon, what seems to me is that there are persons assiduously working in tandem with media and various other outlets to undermine the legitimacy of the judiciary.

- Why, to what end, Paula?

What would be the goal?

- I think it, I think it is two parts.

One is a reflection of the larger fraying of our nation's social fabric, our civic fabric, the hyper partisanship and hyperbole that has essentially pitted one side against another.

For the first time, we've got the word "tribe" to describe one's partisan affiliations.

Think about that.

A certain tribalism can be frightening and can disinhibit viewpoint diversity.

People seem intent on winning at all costs, to doing whatever it takes in order to prevent what they perceive to be the other side as winning.

We've got the media delegitimizing the judiciary, we've got a former president referring to jurists as so-called judges.

We've got activists who are using surreptitious means under the banner of journalism, to essentially play games of gotcha journalism.

It is wrong.

And I think what all of us have to do as citizens who love our country so much and believe in our democracy and its tripartite system of government, we've all gotta be working assiduously in our respective spheres of influence to stoke and foster a sense of not condemnation, but deep pride in our tripartite system.

It works.

- But Paula, respectfully, your points are well taken in terms of those who have an agenda.

And the agenda is often not about helping people truly understand what the reality is about our judicial system, what the reality is about our Department of Justice.

Okay, they have their own agenda, but there are legitimate concerns and issues as it relates to, and I'll be very specific, the argument about an independent judiciary in the state.

You made that case.

New Jersey is recognized around the country.

You and your colleagues who are experts in the field understand that.

But the United States Supreme Court has individual jurists, associate justice of the Supreme Court.

Two in particular, and I want you to help us understand this.

Number one, if one of the judges on the Supreme Court, Clarence Thomas, over the past 20 years has received public, this is public information now, approximately $2.4 million in gifts, travel on private planes, a whole range of gifts from a, quote unquote, Republican donor who has a very clear agenda and he has a right to as an American citizen.

The fact that Clarence Thomas has not disclosed those gifts, A and B, the court regulates itself.

That should not be of a concern to millions of Americans who wanna believe that the US Supreme Court and those judges on it are independent and disclose things like this?

- It is absolutely a matter of very significant public concern.

Certainly to the extent that a gift giver is not a private friend as the justice seems to have asserted, but rather someone who has business before the court.

If that were the case, of course, recusal would be mandated, and we would presume that any justice subject to that sort of a conflict of interest would recuse.

But that's not what we seem to have in this instance.

Certainly as concerns Justice Alito, who has been known for adhering, as Justice Thomas has, viewing to a particular interpretation of the Constitution.

It's called originalism.

And whether we agree with it or disagree with it, the justices, those have been quite consistent in their constitutional interpretations.

I don't know that there is an actual litigant before the court or litigator before the court who is actually not only a friend or associate of a justice, but a gift giver of such largesse as you described.

But again, if that was the case, that justice would have to recuse.

- Okay, but one thing at a time.

But Paula, first of all, it wasn't disclosed until media organizations researched it, got the information, disclosed it.

Clarence Thomas did not voluntarily disclose that.

And that's number one.

And let me also clarify in the spirit of transparency, Seton Hall Law School is not an underwriter of our programming, but Seton Hall University is, to clarify.

So A, should judges on the Supreme Court disclose those gifts?

A and B, who the heck regulates the court?

- Good, two essential points.

Justice O'Hern and I had served as Special Ethics Council to one of our former New Jersey governors, and we came to two essential predicates for good government, for good decision making, for an effective three branches of government.

And the first of those is transparency.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Disclosure forms should be mandated, and they should be on a public database, so that all of us, we the people, will know to follow the money if it's there and then know whether or not there's a reasonable basis for a shaking public confidence in independence.

In addition, as you say, there needs to be accountability.

There has to be an enforcement mechanism for the new ethics code that the Supreme Court did impose upon itself last year.

The problem.

- Who enforces it?

- The problem with the code is the justices imposed it and it's self enforcing and self-policing.

Having an independent overseer or auditor is necessary and would go a long way to restoring a very shaken public trust.

- Let me do this 'cause there's only a couple minutes left.

Justice Alito, I wanna be clear on this.

Do you believe that a justice on the Supreme Court, the US Supreme Court, has every right to fly a flag, to express an opinion, to have his wife or her husband or significant other, express political views through a flag or whatever, that they have every right to do that and that has nothing to do with cases that maybe come before them as a member of the Supreme Court.

Translation, Justice Alito has said basically those flags with the upside down American flag, which were flown by many on January 6th, an insurrection, an effort to stop the transfer, the peaceful transfer of power in our country, that I didn't do that, my wife did that.

I've got nothing to do with it.

Question, to what degree are the political leanings of justices on the Supreme Court or their significant others, relevant to the American public as it relates to confidence in the judicial system?

- Well, I certainly think that it is relevant to public perception.

As concerns Justice Alito, and I had the privilege of working with Justice Alito when he was a Third Circuit Court member.

He has served on the bench for three decades, almost two, on the US Supreme Court.

I know him to be an integrity-led person who has endeavored mightily to be non-partisan and apolitical.

- What about on this?

- Yeah.

- He argues, it's not me, it's my wife.

- On this matter, I do first of all believe that he and Mrs. Alito are two separate and independent entities.

I also believe him when he has said to the press that he was unaware at the time, and it seems from the record, that once he became aware, that flag became no more.

I do think it's unfortunate, however, during these very combustible, fractious times, that those episodes did in fact occur because perception is everything and regardless of that, and the fact is that Justice Alito has long viewed to the same constitutional interpretation that he embraces today.

He is a person of mighty intellect and great honor.

Irrespective of those facts, perception is damaging in this case.

- And finally, there may be cases, there are cases that will come before the Supreme Court that involves January 6th and its implications and former President Trump as it relates to January 6th and its implications.

People can decide for themselves.

Paula Franzese, Peter W. Rodino Professor of Law at Seton Hall University.

Paula, as always, thank you so much for joining us.

We appreciate it.

- Great to be with you.

Thank you, Steve.

- You got it.

Stay with us folks.

We'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- Folks, I'm here with my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico, who joined me at the annual 5K race, the "Celebration of Life" with the New Jersey Sharing Network back on June 9th in New Province, New Jersey.

Jacqui, tee up the interview people are about to see with a mother and son who tell a compelling story, a powerful story.

- Mother and son, Dr. Leslie, her son Omari, had to deal with some really serious health issues, Omari.

Was put on dialysis for many years because of a kidney disease he was dealing with and Dr. Leslie and Omari came to the realization that Omari really needed a kidney to save his life and Dr. Leslie is an organ donor and Omari is an organ recipient, kidneys, but you would think being they're mother and son that Dr. Leslie gave Omari her kidney.

It's not really how everything worked out.

So this next interview, you'll hear them talk about a kidney donor, being a kidney donor and really about this paired kidney exchange, what that is and how they were able to use that as a tool to give Omari his lifesaving kidney.

- The rest of the story, I think Charles Osgood used to say that, the rest of the story told by Jacqui Tricarico in this compelling interview.

Let's check it out.

- Hi, I am Jacqui Tricarico, on location at the New Jersey Sharing Network's 5K event here at New Providence, New Jersey.

I am so pleased to be joined by Dr. Leslie Pooser Osei-Tutu, and her son Omari Pooser-Bennet, mother, son, kidney donor, kidney recipient.

But when you hear that, you think, "Oh, you donated your kidney to your son," but that's not how the story unfolded, right?

So first Omari, tell me about your diagnosis in 2010, and how that changed your life significantly.

- Well, yeah, I was diagnosed in 2010 with a rare kidney disease, and it was projected that I would be on dialysis in about 20, 30 years.

And you know, life threw its deck of cards at me, and that was... That actually happened in 10 years, and I went septic and had to go on dialysis immediately.

And like I said, 20, 30 years turned into a few years, and yeah, it's been a journey from dialysis to the kidney, just the process of looking for a kidney donation.

- When people hear about dialysis, I don't think they really understand how like, life changing that is, and what you have to go through on a week to week basis.

You're receiving dialysis three times a week for six years, is that right?

- Seven.

- Seven years, so how were you able to mentally and physically get through that time in your life?

- It's a lot of quote unquote soul searching, and just finding your inner strength.

But I'd say one of the biggest parts is the community in terms of looking for help and assistance, and just strength, but most importantly, looking for that kidney, for the kidney donation.

The communities is a very important.

Family, friends, the community as a whole.

- Yeah, I was gonna say family, obviously mom, I'm a mother.

- Yeah.

- I can't imagine what that was like for you too, to see your son go through such a time.

Were you automatically like, "Let me see if I can donate my kidney to my son."

Was that part of the process right away, or how did that happen?

- Actually, it didn't come up until a little bit later.

We got him listed pretty early, and we didn't expect that the wait would be so long.

So I really only started looking to be a donor myself probably five years in.

What was interesting that you said, because I did not donate my kidney to my son, because early on I found out that I was not a match for him.

So we have different blood types.

- Yep.

- What I also wanna say though, Jacqui, is that you mentioned and asked Omari about the emotional part of being on dialysis as a young person for such a long time, as a physician myself, knowing and seeing patients on dialysis, there was no way for me to really understand the emotional toll that such a thing would take on a patient.

- So how did that change the work, you're an anesthesiologist, right?

- I am, I am.

- And you've seen firsthand a little bit of the process of organ and tissue donation, is that right, through your job?

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- So how did this change your entire perspective of those patients that you work with?

- Well, initially what I would say to Omari is, "What's the big deal?

Just go to dialysis three times a week, and then live your life," not realizing that he was often the youngest person there, he's sitting among people who are much older and more ill.

So it was very difficult.

On the other side, on my professional side, it took an emotional toll for me, because I would actually be the anesthesiologist at times on organ procurement.

And knowing that my son was at home needing a kidney, and I'm seeing someone's kidneys being transferred through the Sharing Network, and through the organizations going to other patients, it was very difficult.

- Yeah, like, when was it gonna be Omari's turn, right?

- Exactly.

There was one particular instance where I asked a colleague to come in and step in for me, while I stepped out to gather myself.

- It became a more emotional process for you?

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- So Omari, when did it come to the point where you said, and your team of doctors, and your mom, "Let's try to figure out how we can have a living donor help with this situation," because that wait list can take so long, so many people are waiting on this list to get organs donated to them to save their lives.

So when did everything happen that you were looking for a living donor?

- Well, it was a lot at once, or a lot in retrospect, but we weren't even looking for a living donor, but we were actually looking for, well, anything available to us, to be honest.

But living donors were the first through family and friends.

But then seeing that nobody was a match, we were going through deceased donors, I'm blanking the term, but for donors that were unfortunately passed.

And most of those were younger guys, and we were faced with a lot of decisions with the quality of the kidney, in terms of the patient, how they died, their condition when they died.

So we had a lot of options to weigh.

Thankfully the six person swap option was presented to us.

- So the six person swap, it's called a paired-kidney exchange.

- Exactly, and many people- - Can you describe it for us?

- Many people don't realize what that is.

So if you have a loved one, or if you just wanna be a donor without a directed recipient, you actually enter a pool where they can match people of different blood types, and secondary blood types, so that I actually donated to a stranger, and a stranger donated to Omari.

So there were three donors in our case, and three recipients.

And it all happens at the same time, so all six of us are in the hospital at the same time.

- Were you meeting each other?

- Omari and I actually, (laughing) the recipients are on one side of the transplant floor for obvious reasons, and the donors are on another.

So we would get together in the break room, and sit together and what have you.

But it was a little known thing that's becoming more and more popular.

Many of the medical centers now do the paired swaps, but you have to be at a center where someone would suggest it.

- Yeah, it's a great option.

- You asked Omari about receiving a live donation, but I gotta tell you, I did not tell Omari that I was going through the testing.

- You didn't, okay.

- I did not tell him, because I didn't want him to be disappointed if I wasn't a match, or if it didn't go through.

So I went through about 4 1/2 months of testing before I told Omari, "I got news for you, are you sitting down?"

- So how was your reaction?

Were you nervous for your mom, were you excited?

- It was a big surprise, but I mean, it is my mom.

I mean, she's my mother- - She's gonna do anything to help you.

- Yeah, I've had many examples of that.

She is, you know, there's nothing like your mother.

But yeah, I was speechless, and it was just a game changer, and it opened up a whole new option for me.

- And how are you both feeling today?

This is in 2021.

- Amazing.

- You're both feeling great?

- Amazing, three years in.

- The new kidney's doing great for you?

- Yeah.

- That's awesome.

And New Jersey Sharing Network, how did they come into your lives?

- Yeah, they were pivotal.

Well, I mean this organization brings light, and like what we're doing here brings light to the possibilities of, I mean, let alone the six-person swapping, 'cause that's amazing, I didn't even know about it.

But just the options that people that need kidneys have, and healthy humans have for people that need donations.

We can live with one, we're born with two, so we can walk around given the gift of life, and still living.

- Leslie, what would you say to people who are nervous about being a a living donor?

- Well, what I'd like to say about the New Jersey Sharing Network is that they're with you at the very beginning on both the recipient side and the donor side.

So they're very big on education.

As a physician, I think that education is really the biggest part of it, because people don't realize what options are available, and they don't know that it's as simple as checking off a box on their driver's license.

New Jersey Sharing Network's theme this year is, "Say yes, save lives."

They cannot save lives unless they're educated enough that all you have to say is, "Yes."

And then you become part of the Sharing Network team and family to save lives in the future going forward.

- Thank you both for sharing your stories, and it's such an inspiration here today at the 5K.

Enjoy the rest of the day.

- Thank you, thank you.

- Thank you so much.

- All right.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by Hackensack Meridian Health.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

Valley Bank.

Newark Board of Education.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

Johnson & Johnson.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

The New Jersey Education Association.

And by The Fidelco Group.

Promotional support provided by Meadowlands Media.

And by Insider NJ.

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