Pau Hana Years, a new day for older Americans.

A time for living.

Your host, Bob Barker.

Charlotte Simmons: Hi and welcome to the program for and by the senior citizens of Hawaiʻi.

I'm Charlotte Simmons, our guest today is Deborah Kakalia, who recently published a book, Hawaiian Quilting as an Art to help the beginner quilter.

Also on the program is Millie Singletary, who assisted Deborah and writing her first book.

Ladies, welcome to Pau Hana Years.

Now, before we get into anything else, I noticed we are completely surrounded by all your works of art Deborah, what is this quilt in the back of us?

Deborah Kakalia: The quilt in the back is called the Lei Lokelani.

It's the lei, the garland of Maui.

And Maui is noted for her rose flowers.

So they called it the Lei Lokelani.

And it's in the royal colors red and yellow.

CS: Red and yellow, now this your own pattern?

DK: This isn't mine.

When I first started to quilt, I didn't know how to draw a pattern.

So I bought this off of someone.

CS: I see.

So this pattern belonged to someone else else?

DK: To someone else, yes.

CS: Can I ask you how long you took to to complete this quilt?

DK: Took me one year to complete this quilt.

CS: Approximately how many hours during the day?

DK: Well about four hours every day.

And sometimes I don't quilt because I get tired.

But I have other things to do besides making this quilt.

CS: Was this your first attempt?

DK: No, I've done other quilts before I've made this.

CS: Before you got into this.

This is really beautiful.

What is approximately the size of this?

DK: This is a, this is a double bed quilt.

CS: It covers the whole bed then.

Approximately 10?

DK: About 88 by 90.

CS: That's really beautiful.

You also brought with you some pillows.

DK: Yes.

CS: Right in front of us.

We have the green, orange, and yellow.

And is that brown?

Is there a brown in there?

DK: Gold.

CS: Gold.

What is that pillow pattern?

DK: That pillow pattern is what they call the Lei ʻIlima.

And the Lei ʻIlima is the flower for this island or Oʻahu.

That's the only pillow pattern that you could use with all different colors, even in making a quilt.

Otherwise, all colors are only two matching colors.

CS: You mean you cannot use more than two colors when you sew a quilt?

DK: Well according to do the old tradition.

They only use two colors.

But that's the only one that they can use more than two besides the flags.

CS: So traditionally, this Lei ʻIlima has the only other one.

Yes.

Now on the other side, we have another pattern, which is this pattern.

DK: This is called the orchid.

I created this pattern.

And I use the color to tone lavender because a lot of people like to have dark purple on light purple.

So I usually create patterns to the color of the flowers.

CS: I see now, you also brought some other things along with you.

But before we go into them, they are not traditional things.

DK: No.

CS: This is something that you thought up yourself?

DK: Yes.

CS: What do you call them?

DK: Well the others that I created actually is the Queen's comb.

CS: That’s a wall-hanging?

DK: That's a wall-hanging.

That is supposed to be a traditional symbol.

But a lot of my students wanted to make wall hangings.

So I felt if we create our royal symbol, it will be more interesting to the student.

So I created this, which they call the Queen's fan.

CS: Queens fan.

It looks like a crown too now.

Now you just put this on the wall as you would a picture, right?

DK: Yes.

Yes.

CS: And on our right here to the left of the screen.

There's brown and yellow.

What is that pattern?

DK: The brown and yellow pattern is Kapiʻolani's crown.

I created that when I visited Kings Alley, and they had her crown in a glass case.

So I thought I'd draw one similar to that.

So be a different wall hanging to teach my students.

CS: And that's another one of your own original patterns?

DK: Yes that's my original pattern.

CS: And the other one you brought with is a red on yellow?

DK: That's the kāhili, which they call the royal plume.

Now, this isn't the traditional type of kāhili, this is the modern type of kāhili.

CS: This is your pattern also?

DK: Yeah, this was created by me in the Martin style.

That's the way they make the kāhilis now with the feathers round, not with the long feathers sticking out, like before.

CS: Oh, there are different types.

DK: This is the latest type of kāhili that they do now.

CS: So these are the things you're into right now actually pillow making and wall-hangings?

DK: Yes.

CS: I have some pictures here that you brought along with us, too.

Maybe we can look at them.

These are the pictures of two quilts that were supposedly commissioned by the Ala Moana Hotel, right?

DK: Yes.

CS: Okay and one is the… DK: American flag.

CS: For the Bicentennial.

DK: For the bicentennial.

And the other one is the Hawaiian flag.

CS: I think there's a back.

Is there a background on the centerpieces of these flags?

Do they come from someone?

DK: Yes in the Hawaiian flag, the crest belongs to Napua Stephens' mother, and it was an unfinished crest.

So she gave me this crest to use for the Ala Moana Hotel Hawaiian flag.

CS: So actually, she had it all the time.

And when they commissioned, you Napua Stevens was the one.

DK: Yeah she she asked me to make the flag.

And then in the beginning, I didn't want to make any flag.

But when she asked me, I tried to make one.

And there was no pattern.

So I had the hardest time getting it together.

So it took me 12 months to make the American flag, I mean, the Hawaiian flag and nine months to make the American flag.

CS: Now these patterns on the outside then you you follow them yourself?

DK: Yes.

CS: The one for the American flag.

The centerpiece is also a DK: Well, they picked the one from the Art Academy book, but I changed the shape of the eagle.

And I changed the, whatchu call it?

Whatchu call this one?

CS: Well, whatever the DK: Anyway, it has the E Pluribus Unum on top, I changed that.

CS: To fit the flag?

DK: To make it look better.

Milly Singletary: I think it's interesting too if you tell them about stars, what happened to the stars.

DK: And when I first started to make the flag in January.

In August, they told me to make 46 stars exactly like the academy book.

But in January they wanted 50 stars.

So I have to hurry and make 200 stars all over again.

And enlarged the quilt a little bigger.

So the quilt is king size 126 by 126.

CS: Covers a king sized bed beautifully.

But they didn't have it on a bed.

They had it on display.

For everyone to see it.

DK: Yeah.

They not gonna use it for the bed, they're going to frame it and hang it up in the Hibiscus Ballroom.

CS: I see.

There's a picture here of you in, while you're sewing the Hawaiian flag.

And this, you brought along some other books also.

These do you want to tell me about?

This one is not written by you.

DK: No, this was written by Thelma Newman.

She came to interview me at the Ala Moana Hotel and asked me if she could put some of my work in her book.

So I told her she could.

CS: So you are quoted in that book?

And there's another one here called the Hawaiian quilt.

This is by Napua Stevens.

She also quotes you?

DK: Yes, that's where I first got into the book was through Napua Stevens.

CS: I understand.

Well, was it Napua that got you started on teaching?

DK: No, I was already teaching but I entered her quilt shows.

And then she had asked me if I could demonstrate Hawaiian quilting at the Ala Moana hotel where she works.

She's a social director.

So I've been there for three years.

CS: And you.

DK: And I cater to the tourists.

CS: Okay during that time is when you decided that a book should be written which is your own book.

DK: Well, I wanted to write, write a book a long time.

But like a Hawaiian, I don't know how to put anything in straight English.

So you have to have someone who's smart enough and better who could put it straight for you.

So Milly happened to come and take lessons from me.

And she said, don’t you want to write a book?

I said, I do.

She said, Well, I'll help you.

I said, you sure?

She said, yes.

So here we are.

So you now we have a book.

CS: So this is the beginning of the book.

That's why you got well, does your book have specific ideas and instructions in there where you know, just anyone can learn or?

DK: Well, my book has detailed instructions more than the other books, I think.

And this is the first book out on pillows, and I added the wall-hanging.

To do a quilt takes a long time.

So a pillow will take a beginner, three to five weeks.

And it's interesting after they have finished the work, they would like to make more.

So a lot of them said that they don't have patience to make a big quilt.

So we end up enjoying ourselves making different pillows.

CS: So in other words, one pillow leads to another pillow and sometimes a wall hanging and then maybe a quilt.

DK: Yes.

CS: That's kind of an encouragement for the people, or anyone actually in general.

Do you have?

Another thing is didn't people keep these things a secr- you know, sort of secret to themselves?

They the designs, ideas, and everything?

DK: Well, according to history, they said they didn't want other people to use the patterns.

But I'm not a history teacher, Napua is a history teacher.

I just instruct people how to do the work.

So whenever they ask history, I refer them to Napua, because she's well versed in history.

I'm not.

I can only teach.

But there's one thing I always say that I do not have any taboo.

CS: None at all?

DK: None at all, because a lot of my students start taking lessons and other people tell them it's not good to do this.

Not good to do that, and it discourages them.

My idea is to promote the work, not to scare the students.

So they get scared and they come back.

And so I said, No, there's no taboo.

The thing is, if you're interested in doing the work, I'm glad to help you.

And you're doing the work.

Nobody else is doing the work.

So I want you to enjoy your work.

So in my case, there's no taboo.

CS: So evidently, through because of this, you want to actually sharing your, your talents and your skills with them with the people.

DK: That’s right.

CS: And you've even done that by including in your work, sort of quilting kit, right?

DK: Yes.

CS: Now, do you want to show us about your quilting kit here?

DK: Since I've been working at the Ala Moana hotel, I've created a quilting kit, mostly for the tourists.

There's a lot of quilters that come from the mainland and would like to learn how to quilt but they have no time shopping for the supplies.

So what I do I make up a kit to the colors that I can find and the patterns that I have.

Then they come there and all they have to have is a needle and a thimble and the hoop which I purchase myself and sell it to them to what I buy it from the store.

I don't make any extra money.

The thing is I want to promote the work.

CS: You're promoting Hawaiiana.

DK: And then they sit right there and learn to stitch.

I feel stitching is harder than to draw and to cut.

So after taking lessons for three weeks, they should be able to learn how to cut and draw their own pattern.

CS: So what does the quilt kit contain then?

You have DK: In my quilt kit, you have the motif, already cut and thread basted to the back so that all you have to do is start learning to stitch.

MS: Applique.

DK: And then you have two matching threads.

I use matching thread.

Then we have the back facing to go with it after it's finished to close the pillow.

And we have a zipper.

In all my pillows I have zipper so you can put an extra pillow in and take it out whenever you want to wash. Then it comes with the batting.

CS: This is the puffiness that gives the quilting effect.

DK: This is a new type of batting they call the polyester Dacron which is better than the regular cotton, because the regular cotton when it washes it mattes.

And this kind of cotton that we use now doesn't matte.

Then we have the facing that you quilt on.

So all this comes into one kit.

CS: The one kit.

Is your facing made of, facing made of muslin or just?

DK: It’s muslin sheeting.

CS: I want to ask you and then how about when used your stuffing pillows?

Do you use cotton?

DK: I use shredded foam to make a pillow because with shredded foam the pillow don't, don't flatten.

We as with the some people like to use the Kapok, but after a while the Kapok flattens, and you have to throw it out to have it put out in the sun.

So it'll fluff up again.

CS: Oh, so actually the shredded foam helps it to… DK: The shredded foam is much better.

CS: Keeps it puffed up.

Yeah, looks brand new all the time.

I understand.

Your book was just put out.

This, a couple weeks ago?

DK: It was a, August the fifth.

And it can be purchased at the Liberty House, the Art Academy, the mission, mission house, and the Bishop Museum.

CS: And at the hotel where you're at.

DK: And at the hotel where I teach three times a week.

CS: Now, I was told, I wanted to get in on it but I think it was too late, that before you let it out, you had it blessed.

What was the purpose of that?

DK: Well, the old Hawaiian custom, I believe.

I was told that when you start anything new, and to have it run through and smoothly, whatever you have, you have to have it blessed before it goes out.

So I went according to the old Hawaiian custom.

CS: So you feel a little more at ease when something is done that way.

You're you mentioned earlier about two colors.

Quilting, for quilting, there are only two colors, is that any different from any other type of quilting like you know, and they're on the mainland?

Don't they use more?

DK: Or well in the American quilting, they use all different types of fabric and colors.

They mix it up.

But in your Hawaiian quilting, you don't do that because it doesn't show the pattern out as pretty.

CS: So actually, it's, it's to emphasize the, the pattern.

DK: Right.

CS: That you have there.

Talking about patterns in your book.

Do you have a number of patterns in there that you yourself designed?

Right?

DK: Yes.

CS: How many?

DK: In my book, I have six originally copyrighted patterns that I designed myself.

And they're the only ones that I use within the book.

But there's other patterns that I have that I'm willing to share to whomever wants to have.

CS: Okay, so, each, you have six of your own, design patterns in this book.

And how many patterns have you designed, totally, do you suppose?

DK: For pillows and wall-hangings?

CS: Well, pillows, wall-hangings.

DK: Well for pillows I've created 66 patterns.

And I've had four wall hangings.

CS: That's supposedly in the last how many years?

DK: Last 14 years.

CS: Speaking of 14 years, when did you start quilting?

DK: In November 1962.

CS: Oh, not as a child?

DK: No.

No, actually, I took up quit, quilting only for a hobby because I figured when I retire I have something to do.

But eventually my girlfriends would ask for me to teach.

Then the word went, went along.

And the first students I have were officers’ wives from Fort Shafter.

And they insist that they pay me in order to learn.

So they were my first students and after that, then I started to take private lessons because I don't want to take a big class because you can't get close to the students.

CS: And you want to help them personally and each one.

DK: And when I first began my color was red and white.

So all the students that took lessons from me all the quilts at the beginning were red and white.

People ask me why I have the star in the center.

I use the star in the center as a beginners' lesson.

If you could make eight points and eight curves nicely, the outside of your pillow won't be that hard.

CS: So that's your trademark the star?

DK: That started as a trademark.

This is for all beginners.

CS: So more than likely in any one of the works that you have done, we will find a star in the center we see some we assume it… DK: If they belong to me they have a star in the center.

CS: Belong to you.

You, besides having your quilts displayed on, on display on the hotels, did you have them anywhere else or any of your work?

So uh supposedly on the mainland or?

DK: Well in 1974, I was asked by a group of women from Marin County to go up and have a seminar with them on quilting.

So I went up there for a whole month.

So we had a seminar in Mendocino County.

And there were four of us that were speakers.

One was speaking on, on the different types of fabrics, one on the American type of quilt, and another girl had hers on trapunto work and reverse quilting applique.

I think that's the type of applique the Kuna Indians did.

Then it ended up with me the Hawaiian quilting.

So the seminar was for three days, and I enjoyed meeting all the other quilters.

CS: Yeah, I guess that was exciting.

Especially to share.

DK: Because you see your Hawaiian quilting is very much different from your American type quilting, because you follow the contour of your pattern when you quilt, and you only allow a half an inch spacing in between.

Whereas in your American quilting, you just follow your, your designs and they don't complete the whole thing.

And they mark it off in all different various shapes.

So to follow, we don't mark ours.

CS: Yours, yours is evenly stitched.

A certain type of stitching.

DK: But I mark for my students because if I don't mark for them, they don't know how to quilt and it spoils their work.

And they get discouraged.

In all your American quilting that they have on sale.

It's all marked off.

So I don't think it's anything wrong to mark a Hawaiian quilt.

CS: Which she suppose is easier than sewing a Hawaiian quilt or pillow?

We won't hit the quilt?

DK: The pillow is easier for beginner.

It's more fun.

MS: Quicker.

DK: Yeah, because it takes six months to applique one quilt and then it's not finished and your classes last only eight to 10 weeks.

And you can't finish any, any quilt in eight to 10 weeks.

But you can finish at least two pillows in 10 weeks.

CS: But by that time they're already ready to go on to quilting but it's so much easier to do the pillows, but you don't want to discourage them to try at least try a quilt, one and a lifetime right?

DK: Well the students have come to me for two years before they have decided to make a quilt.

CS: And then they have they really gone through with it?

DK: Yes, I have several students finished with this, their quilt and I put it on display when I have it at the park.

CS: I bet it gives you a sense of satisfaction and makes you feel good and them too, no doubt, that they were able to do that.

I wanted to ask you, I don't know where the first quilt came from, the Hawaiian quilt.

Have you any idea?

DK: No.

CS: Where it first started?

DK: According to Milly, she did all the history reading.

They didn't say.

MS: No.

CS: There was there was sort of a conflict of Kailua-Kona or in Maui for a prince, Hawaiian prince, but they didn't know.

Now, the design on a quilt.

How on earth did that ever come about?

Whoever thought something up?

Isn't there a story behind that?

DK: Well, they did.

They did have a story.

But maybe Milly can tell you.

How did it start?

Because I don't know history.

I only know how to teach.

MS: Well, I thought it was very interesting.

I did a lot of research and all the libraries.

And they all agreed supposedly it started when one particular lady put her muslin out to bleach… CS: On the lawn… MS: On the lawn.

And the shadow of the tree during those several hours had created a a design on it.

She thought it was so interesting that she took it in and cut out a pattern that matched the design that the leaves had made.

So the tree… CS: So supposedly this is one of the stories of how the quilt became a quilt or design for a quilt.

There aren't any other.

There's, it's just a tale.

MS: That's right.

CS: It's a good one.

MS: So long ago that CS: I thought it was.

DK: Well, when I was at the seminar there was a Professor Robert Haas.

And he asked me a question and I tried to answer he said, didn't you?

Don't you think that the Hawaiians design their own quilts to show the Americans that they knew a little more than they did?

And I said yes, I think so.

CS: More than they did?

They didn’t think they knew a thing.

DK: I said yes, I did.

I want to say one thing.

CS: Sure.

DK: In all my quilt kits, my husband helped me thread baste.

CS: That's what I wanted to ask you, I heard he did that.

I heard it from the grapevine, like Napua Stevens, that he, he does a lot of the basting, thread basting.

DK: Yes, in all my quilt kits that I make for my students and for my, what you call it, classes at the Ala Moana my husband does the thread basting.

CS: That's great.

DK: I very, very seldom thread baste.

Even the quilts that are ordered from other people he does most of the thread basting.

So he's CS: So they're DK: Actually he's my right hand man.

CS: I guess he's your assistant actually, associate there.

I heard I heard about when you were on the putting your quilts on display there that he didn't realize it but all the women were watching him as he was putting it out and starting to thread baste.

DK: Right, mm hm.

CS: Yeah, he had a bigger audience than some of the other shows around there, didn't he?

DK: Yes, whenever I have an exhibit, I always have some work for him to sit and show the women while I'm busy with the other stages of work he does the thread basting to show them how to thread baste.

CS: So this has really become a family affair after all.

DK: Yes.

CS: Well Deborah, it seems that sharing your talent for quilting and your skills has been a special thing with you, you love to share things?

DK: Right.

mm hmm.

CS: And you're not gonna keep it taboo it's gonna come out and those of us who cannot sew, like me, I'll probably maybe make an attempt.

We can get the kits if we want at the hotel can't we?

DK: If you take lessons from me.

CS: I mean it's not only made for, you mean you have to lessons?

DK: Yes, this isn't a commercial kit you know, this kit is not sold commercially it's only made special for students who want to take lessons from me.

CS: But how about, your lessons are when we're working.

DK: Well we'll manage to find time for you.

Well, that's why I private lessons.

CS: I'll never learned to, I'll never learn to quilt.

DK: We'll manage to find time for you.

CS: Well, ladies, thank you both for visiting us.

I'm sure Deborah your book will be of great help and encouragement to others.

Our guest today, Deborah Kakalia and that's Pau Hana Years for today.

Until our next program this is Charlotte Simmons leaving you with his thought: sharing one's talent is another joy of life.

Outro Try to remember when life was so tender that dreams were kept beside your pillow.

Deep in December it's nice to remember the fire of September that made us mellow.

Try to remember, and if you remember, then follow (to follow) remember (remember) to follow (to follow).

Intro Try to remember, try to remember.

Pau Hana Years a new day for older Americans.

A time for living, your host Bob Barker.

Bob Barker: Hi and welcome to the program for and by the senior citizens of Hawaii.

Today, Pau Hana Years is on the island of Molokaʻi but on the peninsula on the North Shore isolated from the rest of the island by a 1600 foot cliff.

Kalaupapa where leprosy patients have lived for over 100 years.

This is RM who was our guide on our tour of Kalaupapa.

Richard, how long have you been a patient here?

Richard Marks: About 17 and a half years.

BB: Where were you born?

RM: Maui.

BB: Maui boy.

RM: Right.

BB: How old were you when you discovered you had leprosy?

RM: Well, the first time I was 19.

But then I left I went to the States, I went to the hospital of Carville, Louisiana.

And after I left, Carville, I was living working in the States went to school up there.

The second time, I was 26, when I came back to Hawaii, and I was going to get married.

So I figured I'd come in, visit the family first get a checkup.

And that's when I found out that I had leprosy.

BB: What was your attitude and feeling when you had to come here?

RM: Very bad, very poor.

They tried to put me at Hale Mohalu Hospital and I refused to go in there.

I'm, my father was here.

And I knew leprosy.

And with its long term in those days, it was still at least 10, 12 years.

I knew what to expect.

And I figured if I had to be in a hospital for years, I'd rather be here.

BB: What kind of adjustments or adaptations did you have to make in your thinking or?

RM: Oh boy, you had to learn not to question authority.

And I never adjusted to that, until I finally went into the tour business on my own.

And you have to learn to follow schedules for medication, because even after discharge, you still have to follow up on your medication.

And of course, you know, you can't go here and you can't go there.

And BB: But your mental outlook today is quite different than it was?

RM: Oh, it is.

Yes, it is.

Well, I came in, I guess I'm more or less mature.

I had very little choice in the matter.

BB: You have a family?

RM: Yes, I have a wife.

And I have three stepdaughters and two sons and they live in Waiʻanae.

BB: Children live in Waiʻanae.

RM: With their grandparents.

BB: Now, you have here behind us a tremendous bottle collection.

RM: I'm known as a junk man locally, I pick up everything in sight.

So I started collecting these old bottles.

And these bottles all come from the original village out of Kalawao where Damien did his work.

BB: Oh, yes.

Uh huh.

RM: So I got some interesting ones here.

BB: You got some special ones here?

RM: This is the old Honolulu Brewing Company.

I think the building is still in Honolulu.

I think they've talked about saving the old brewery.

BB: That'd be one of the early Primo bottles.

RM: This the first Primo, that's right.

The first Primo bottle, cork type.

Real Hawaiian sized Primo.

BB: Yeah.

yeah.

RM: You really got a drink for your money in those days.

BB: When I first saw this collection, I thought these might be the bottles you had emptied during your lifetime.

RM: Oh, no I haven't been here that long.

Not quite that long.

Then of course I have the old Lydia Pinkham's.

Everybody's heard of Lydia Pinkham's blood medicine and everything else as a cure all.

You see in the old days, well, not in the old days, up to the late 40s.

They had no real medication for leprosy.

So people took all kinds of patent medicines and everything.

BB: Anything they could.

RM: That's it.

Now it didn't cure leprosy.

But you know, there was a lot of opium and alcohol in it.

BB: Made everybody happy.

RM: Made them feel better, anyway.

And this is an interesting one.

It's the only one I've got.

It's too bad it's broken.

BB: Oh, look at the indentation on the side.

RM: This was a very interesting bottle.

I think this is about the first soda water company in Hawaiʻi.

This bottle's about 100 years old, the old Hollister Soda Company.

See these bottles were made with a marble on the inside, and they were filled upside down.

When they turn, they filled them upside down.

When they turn the faucet off.

The marble would settle on the cork gasket and you turn them right side up and they never leak.

Oh, when you wanted to drink the soda, you had to push the marble down.

BB: Well, now you have a great big jug down here.

Where did that come from?

RM: Well I found an old still.

This is pretty interesting.

They had an old guy in here.

Well, there were quite a few of them.

And he used to make okolehao, Hawaiian moonshine.

BB: Oh yeah.

RM: So people look for years.

They tried to raid him.

They never could catch him at it.

So one day, I was walking up in a valley and I happened to get up on one of the back ridges and it was this old still up on the back on top of an old waterfall.

And a lot of beautiful bottles there.

BB: Richard, do you get away from here occasionally?

RM: Uh, yes, I get to town once in a while, now.

Because my children are there and since I'm in the tour business, I go out in business off and on.

BB: Yeah, have in mind at all leaving permanently?

RM: No, I'm, I'm losing the sight of my right eye now.

I'd like to leave I'd like to go out because my kids are young and all.

But what kind of, I'm a journeyman electrician, I've lost all sensation in my hands and feet.

What kind of a job could I hold on the outside?

A lot of our people have gone out and tried.

It doesn't take them long they have to come back in.

They either reactivate or they have some problem.

Because one thing a lot of people don't realize is so much of these job insurance deals.

Now, whenever you work, you have to be covered by insurance.

And sometimes they have problems with stuff like, I'd like to go out to work.

If I could get a business on my own going where I know I wouldn't get laid off because somebody doesn't work, want to work with a former patient or something.

I would go.

I'd like to spend more time with my kids.

BB: Now we're going to talk with a couple of the patients here at Kalaupapa, Francis and Clarence.

Francis, how long you've been a patient here?

Francis: Up here, I first entered in Kalihi Hospital in 1937.

BB: '37.

F: I was up here in 1943.

BB: '43.

F: I'm still here.

BB: About you Clarence how long you've been here?

Clarence: Been here 20 years.

BB: 20 years.

Where are you from?

F: Maui BB: Maui and you?

C: Also from Maui.

BB: Both Maui boys?

You live here now in these are bachelor quarters is that it?

F: Yes sir, that's right.

BB: What kind of accommodation you have a dormitory or a private room?

F: Private room, yeah.

They're all private rooms.

BB: What do you do about food?

F: Oh we go there, a central dining room and we have our meals there.

BB: Central dining room?

Do you live here too, Clarence?

C: No, I have my own home.

I'm living by, alone by myself.

BB: A house?

C: I have my own house.

I do my own cooking and everything.

BB: Francis you, you're involved in the music business, aren't you?

F: Well, not quite, I'm just an amateur, yeah.

BB: What what?

You're working on some music here.

What are you doing?

F: Making parts for the choral group.

Singing parts.

BB: What choral group is this?

F: Well, we didn't even come to it yet.

We never even mentioned anything for the groups but the uh, just pick it up.

BB: Oh, you're just working toward getting a group, is that it?

F: Yes, Well, we all enjoy it.

And it's, we keep ourselves busy.

BB: How old were you when you discovered you had leprosy?

F: I was about 25 years old.

BB: You were old enough to have it be a blow to you then.

F: Oh, yes, sir.

That was new to me.

BB: How about you Clarence, how old were you?

C: Actually I was born in Kalaupapa.

BB: Oh, you were born here?

C: I'm original island of Maui.

Then from Honolulu, then I came in here.

I came in Hale Mohalu, 1953.

BB: Clarence, have you been away from Kalaupapa since you came here 20 years ago?

C: Yeah.

Went Honolulu.

Went back home, Maui.

For a week.

And then I came back to Kalaupapa.

BB: How about you, Francis.

Do you get out anytime?

F: Oh, yes.

I just came up here, last year.

I stayed in Hale Mohalu for ten years.

I went down in 1963.

BB: Oh, you stayed over there in Pearl City?

F: 1963 and I came back, last year.

BB: Now, you are both, are you both free to come and go as you please, if you want to?

F: Yes, we're free to go.

BB: But you're not moving away?

F: No.

no.

BB: Why not?

F: We no place to, cuz we have no friends like we have here.

And we have our relatives at home but they're.

Too much bother for take care of us they have their own children.

It's too much bother.

I don't think we live freely like we do here on the outside.

BB: I imagine after this length of time you sort of feel like this is home, don't you?

C: Right.

I like this place and I'm not planning to leave this place, you know.

F: If you can help it.

C: This guy was right.

BB: I imagine there are a lot of people in this world who would love to live in a nice contented place like this.

All this beauty and all this pleasant weather.

F: That’s right.

BB: Well good luck to… F: You can't find this outside.

BB: No.

F: It's a nice life.

And I hate to leave this place.

This is our home.

And I hope God will be with us, too.

And we’ll stay (inaudible) and then we’ll die.

BB: This is Dr. Charles Koch medical administrator at Kalaupapa.

Who, how long have you been the resident physician here doctor?

Charles Koch: I came here in November of last year, so that would be approximately 10 months.

BB: What, what made you decide to come and take a post here?

CK: Well, it's a rather interesting story.

I was a solo physician in California.

I was in practice doing internal medicine in Santa Cruz for approximately 20 years.

And I was one of those on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

BB: Did you make house calls?

CK: I made plenty of house calls.

BB: You don’t find many like that anymore.

CK: Yes, I was very, very busy.

I did about a 70 hour week work.

And I was getting a little tired.

And one day after a particularly trying day with a lot of frustrations I was browsing through a medical journal and just happened to see the ad by the Hawaiʻi State Department of Health's looking for a position here and I just tore it out, answered it, after a bit of correspondence here I am.

BB: I imagine during these 10 or so months that you've been here, you've had a chance to learn something about the history of this place.

How long has it been that this peninsula was the settlement for Hansen's disease?

CK: It's been well over 100 years.

It was in the 1860s that the peninsula, or that is the eastern side of the peninsula was set aside as a place of isolation.

And then just 100 years ago this year, Father Damien came, that was in 1873.

And he was a very forceful man who apparently trode, tread on a lot of toes, and managed to just force a lot of reforms through and after that the conditions here improved tremendously.

BB: Now that area over there, where they first were living, is called Kalawao.

CK: Kalawao.

BB: And since they've moved to Kalaupapa when, when was that?

CK: Well it was a gradual transition.

But I think, around the turn of the century, much of the movement had taken place, although there were still some facilities active over at Kalawao, but I think the main reason for the shift was due to the climate.

Just this very short distance is makes a tremendous amount of difference… BB: It does?

CK: climatically, it's much, more damp and cool there and not a desirable place for chronically ill people.

BB: Oh, I see.

CK: Here, it's warm and much drier and better suited.

BB: Quite a bit of trade wind here, too, listen to it.

CK: Yes.

BB: Does the program, the state program provide for the patients here, their subsistence?

CK: Yes, I don't know all of the details of that.

But they are provided they have their housing, and I think they older patients have a lifetime tenancy here.

According to legislation that was passed some years ago.

BB: How many patients are there here today?

CK: There are approximately 150 here now, most of whom are non-contagious, and who live here by choice.

Many of them are quite infirm, they have a lot of deformities from old disease and they do need a lot of overall medical care not necessarily due to any activity of their leprosy process, but complications of it, particularly anesthesia of limbs, which allows them to damage their hands and feet quite readily, burn them, injure them.

And as a result, we have a lot of chronic ulcerations of feet and hands which require quite a bit of complicated nursing care.

BB: To bring that down to layman's terms.

You mean because they have no feeling in those particular extremities then they damage them easily?

CK: That’s right.

BB: Dr. Koch, what is one of the main problems you find here in administering such a place?

CK: Well, I think the very factors that originally made this an ideal place for quarantine of patients now make it a problem for administrating.

By that I mean the isolation and the inaccessibility of the area.

All of our supplies have to be flown in by light plane.

And of course, you've seen the airstrip, I mean a very large plane would have difficulty bringing in supplies.

So heavy supplies have to come in by barge.

And the sea is very rough through the winter months, so we get our barge supplies in just twice a year in July and September.

So anything that can't come in by plane has to wait for the barge shipments.

BB: Aren't a great many of the patients here now free to come and go as they please?

CK: Uh, yes actually, we have approximately 15 patients right now who are in quarantine because their disease is active.

All of these are patients who have had their disease for many years and were inactive and then the disease has reactivated on them again and they are for a time, theoretically contagious.

So they are quarantined here, I expect that under treatment they will eventually become non-contagious again and will be in the category of released patients as the rest of them are here.

BB: And they could even move away if they wanted?

CK: They could move away, yes if they wish to.

BB: But they do not?

CK: No, we have patients that have lived here for as long as 50 years.

And this is home to them.

Many of them are disfigured and many of them are blind and this is the only home they know it would be quite a hardship on them to move out.

BB: Of course, too, they may have heard of that rat race you left there in California and not want to enter it.

BB: Richard, now what about the word leper as against Hansen's disease?

How do people feel about that here?

RM: Well, and I know a lot of them don't like the use of the word leper itself.

They've got no objection to leprosy.

BB: Oh, I see.

How many cemeteries are there here?

RM: Oh, we've lost track.

Many of them have been covered over, bulldozed over and overgrown, brush and all.

So there's no real way of keeping track.

And in the early days, many of them were buried where they fell.

So... BB: Is that so?

RM: That's right.

So there's no, well how many people in the early days, this was, before Damien's time, before things were organized, were buried wherever they fell.

Because if people were too sick, to carry anyone to a cemetery, or to even dig a proper grave.

BB: Now what all do we have here in the village?

You have the administration building?

RM: Yes, we have the administration building.

And then we have the unit homes.

They're called unit homes and more or less dormitory deal, where the disabled… BB: That's where several people… RM: That’s right.

BB: Like a dormitory.

RM: It's like a dormitory but they've been converted into little apartments now.

This is where the disabled people live, and the single men.

And then of course, Bishop Home is two women in separate cottages there now.

But then, of course, there are many homes where people live like, just like an ordinary plantation village.

BB: A family home.

RM: That's right, a family home husband and wife, no children are allowed here.

BB: Is religion very important to...?

RM: Very important.

Religion has been the most important thing in this colony from way back right from the early days.

Religion was all they had.

It's always been very, very important.

If the, the life in the village today centers around rel- the churches.

It always has and it, it will because we've got no newer people, no younger people coming in.

And the elderly people carry on the old ideas of following the church.

Religion is very important.

BB: You also have a couple of fun spots here too, haven't you?

RM: Oh yeah, we've got the banyan tree and the mango tree.

BB: What?

What are they?

RM: Well, these are little local gathering places.

The people get together on a weekend at somebody's house.

One is a big, great big banyan tree out front and they've got a converted garage.

It's put up more like a lūʻau house.

And they go out there and have lūʻaus for every special occasion whenever anybody has a relative or someone coming in to visit or some special occasion like New Year's or Christmas.

People gather there and have their entertainment everybody brings his own Primo and it's more or less of a potluck deal.

BB: Now Richard, the only way in and out of here by land is by a trail up the cliff side, huh?

RM: That's right.

It's about three and one eighth miles long.

I think it's about 26 switchback turns on it.

And uh, oh at least 65 percent 70 percent of our visitors come down that trail now.

People come out to upper Molokaʻi for a weekend or to spend some time and then they, they walk in and they enjoy it.

They seem to enjoy it.

It's a safe enough trail.

It's a little loose rock.

BB: Is it tough?

I mean does it require an athlete?

RM: Oh, no, no.

A lot of people wish they were athletes, by the time they get back up.

But if you take your time it's passable.

People make it down and in about an hour.

It takes a couple of hours to get back up.

BB: So the only way in here to get in get supplies in is by water?

RM: That's right.

Well, we have two barges a year that bring in our heavy freight and equipment and then we also have daily flights.

This coastline here is considered the one of the worst in the islands.

We're on the windward side and it's not so much the wave action, we've got very bad surges here.

And there's been trouble when ships and barges trying to land freight here.

At times a barge even has to go back to Honolulu without being landed without being unloaded.

BB: Richard the original leprosy patients here were on the other side of the peninsula, weren't they?

RM: That's right.

That was out at Kalawao.

It's where Father Damien's church is today.

The first patients who had dropped off I think in January 1866.

But there was no real housing or anything for them very little shelter.

They were dropped off in Waikolu Valley.

But in a way they were thinking it was humane because the valley had a lot of taro and stuff.

They, they were Hawaiian they could live off the taro and the ocean.

BB: But no doctors or nurses or?

RM: Nothing at all.

They were just dropped off and left to fend to take care of themselves.

BB: What about food supplies or anything like that?

RM: Some of it was brought in but not much.

It was dumped in the ocean.

The strong swam out in got it.

If they wanted to share they shared.

Molokai ended at the edge of these cliffs.

And according to geologists, about a million years after the Molokai which itself was formed, this little volcano popped up in the ocean and formed a little island that became a peninsula of Kalawao.

BB: And this is the crater over here?

RM: That's right the crater right up here.

Where uh, where the crosses where the Aliʻi are buried.

BB: Those are just Aliʻi buried there?

RM: That's right.

This is the Aliʻi from the original village here, not patients.

These were people who were here hundreds of years before the patients.

Just a fishing village.

BB: Now, down inside the crater.

Oh, there's some strange growth I don't recognize.

RM: Yeah, well, some of it is sisal.

A lot of it is wiliwili.

And then of course now there's brush moving in the birds are spreading lantana and all.

BB: What's that lake or pond down there?

RM: Oh there's a lake down there they say the, the area of the lake itself is about a full acre.

And with all the brush moving in, the water has gotten pretty dirty over the last few years.

So water samples were sent out to see if tilapia could live in there and get rid of all the algae clean the water out.

But then they checked the water samples and asked us not to put anything in there.

Because they found the specie of shrimp there they've never found anywhere else in the world.

BB: Oh, really?

RM: So it's something unusual.

And we've got marine biologists coming in now checking it twice in the last year.

And then we've got people from Bishop Museum checking too.

So it is unusual.

And they say this may be one of the deepest, deepest pits in Hawaiʻi.

Because according to what I got, a few years back they dropped 975 feet of line without touching bottom.

They ran out of line without touching bottom.

So nobody really knows how far down it goes or anything.

BB: Richard there is a song called Sunset of Kalaupapa.

That was written by a patient here wasn't it?

RM: That's right that was Sam Kuahini.

He's a patient who came in here as a young boy, he went, he lost his sight.

He was going blind.

BB: (inaudible) wasn’t it?

RM: Yes, uh huh.

And he was one of the youngest ever brought in here as a patient.

And he spent his whole life here.

And I don't know, he got to really understand and enjoy the scenic beauty of the area.

While he was going blind, he kept thinking of the sunsets that he could see, you know, while he was still had his sight, and it just he just kept working on it.

So finally, after he went blind, he wrote other pieces of music, but this was the most popular.

And then of course, Harry Owens, he was lucky enough to get Harry Owens and the brother, and his brother behind him, Frank Owens.

And they promoted the song and did a great job for Sammy.

They sold quite a few copies of the song and they donated money for musical instruments and stuff for the patients here and they did quite a bit of work on it and in fact the piano that was paid for, the grand piano is still being used here this is the same instrument we use for all our concerts when we have entertainers come in and everything.

Sammy's gone now, of course, He died a few years back.

BB: Sammy Kuahini's Sunset of Kalaupapa.

(Singing) My island of dreams, Means so much to me.

When you're in my arms, Sighing tenderly.

So hold me close my darling.

Kiss me as lovers do.

Then the sunset of Kalaupapa, Will be a dream come true.

BB: Doctor what is the future of Kalaupapa?

CK: I foresee a slow attrition of the area.

The new cases, as I said, are not sent here anymore.

So, there's nothing to increase the population here.

As the patients gradually get older and more infirm there may be provisions made eventually for special nursing homes for them or the whole area may just slowly phase out as the older patients die off.

BB: And that's Pau Hana Years for today.

A visit to the peninsula on Molokai where leprosy patients have been isolated for over 100 years, Kalaupapa.

On our next program.

Our guest will be the well-known Honolulu public relations man, Bob Alderman, Until Thursday at 2:30 and 6:30pm.

This is Bob Barker, leaving you with this thought.

Considering the unforeseen events of this world, we should be taught that no human condition should inspire men with absolute despair.

Outro Deep in December it's nice to remember although you know, the snow will follow.

Deep in December it's nice to remember without a hurt the heart is hollow.

Deep in December it's nice to remember the fire of September that made us mellow.

Deep in December it's nice to remember and follow.