- [Announcer] This program was funded by the following, Laura and John Beckworth, BP Ame Joe Latimer and Joni Hartgraves.

And also by, and by.

A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org, and LiveFromLBJ.org.

- Right now, we're in a post consensus period where the American people are trying to figure out, what is the new lingua franca of democracy, citizenship, and dignity gonna b What is the ceiling?

But also, what is the floor?

(pleasant music) (pleasant music ending) (upbeat music) - Welcome to the LBJ Presidentia in Austin, Texas, I'm Mark Updeg As an author, journalist, television commentator, and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, I've had the privilege of talking to some of the biggest names and best minds of our day about our nation's ri and the pressing issues of our t Now, we bring those conversations straight to you.

Our guest is Peniel Joseph, an award-winning author, Professor at the University of Texas, and Founding Director of the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy.

Tonight, we'll discuss his latest book, "Freedom Season," which chronicles 1963 as a dramatic turning point in our nation's long quest for civil rights.

We also fast forward to today and explore the state of race in a post DEI America.

Peniel Joseph, welcome.

- Thanks for having me.

- And congratulations on "Freedo - Thank you.

- So, your book deals with 1963, an inflection point in our nation's long quest for civil rights.

You write in "Freedom Season's" "Domestic events centered on the for Black citizenship and dignity would alter the trajectory of American democracy in 1963."

Why is 1963 such a pivotal year for civil rights?

- Well, I think it's the inflect for the decade of the 1960s.

In so many ways, we think about 1964 and '65 with the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

But '63 is what sets it all in motion, I think.

And really try to lay out a case in this book of why '63 is the most important year of the 1960s.

- So take us through the year, P Clearly, there is the campaign in Birmingham when Martin Luther King brings the Civil Rights movement to Birmingham for a direct action campaign.

Why Birmingham?

And why is it so important?

- Well, Birmingham is an inflect in American history in 1963.

And when we look at the way in which the year starts, civil rights is not on the presi of the United States' front burn It's on the back burner, right?

- Right.

- People like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Junior, they're doing activism in different cities.

But they're really trying to get attention, national atten And Birmingham becomes that inflection point.

But as "Freedom Season" shows, before Birmingham, there was Greenwood, Mississippi.

And there were other hot spots.

Rochester, New York was a hot sp So there were all these little f brush fires I would call them, that were happening all around the United States, not just the South.

But in places like New York and California and other places.

But Birmingham is the place where by April of 1963, the convergence of history, social movements, but also politics comes into pla And Birmingham becomes a global of civil rights struggle.

- So you've got these brush fire but Birmingham is the bonfire.

What does Birmingham look like before the Civil Rights movement goes and takes the direct action campaign there - Well, Birmingham is a dying st It's the citadel of the old Conf It's a hyper segregated city.

It's a very brutally repressive It's a city where Black people can't go into restaurants.

They can't try on clothes at department stores.

They aren't employed in anything other than menial labor.

Many of them live in dilapidated They go to segregated, underfunded schools.

And they're always victims and vulnerable to police brutali So it's a very, very difficult c And Martin Luther King Junior decides to go to Birmingham on p because he had suffered a defeat in Albany, Georgia.

And he goes into Birmingham to try to really illustrate the horrors of racial segregatio And in Birmingham, unlike in Alb he really gets the cooperation of local people.

There's a Reverend, Fred Shuttle who's the leader of the local Birmingham movement.

There is no NAACP in Alabama, Mark, it's been outlawed.

There's an Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.

And so when we think about Birmingham, very repressive city But Dr. King being arrested in B during Easter weekend in April o he's gonna write his legendary letter from Birmingham Jail, which is only publicized a month But it's really part of the confluence of historical events that turns Birmingham into reall an epic in American history.

- Let me quote you about that seminal letter from the Birmingham Jail that Martin Luther King writes.

You write of the letter, "King placed the civil rights struggle and the event in Birmingham within the grand sweep of American history.

And centered the battle for Blac and citizenship as reflecting th and most patriotic traditions upon which the nation's ideals r How did the letter from Birmingham come about?

- Well, King is arrested in Apri alongside his best friend and partner, Ralph Abernathy.

And when we think about that let that letter is really based on K sort of utilizing his philosophi but his skills as a theologian to write out a theory of justice And he writes this out on old ne on toilet paper, on sandwich pap And he smuggles it out to Wyatt Tee Walker, who's his Executive Director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

And that letter is really brilli And like you said, he really places the Civil Right in the grand sweep of American d King's real genius is making an that what Black people and their allies are doing in the Civil Rights movement is in the best tradition of American democracy and American citizenship.

And we're gonna see, Kennedy eve is gonna articulate that and certainly Lyndon Johnson in a very, very robust way.

But when we think about that letter by the next month, that's gonna be printed out by Jewish groups, different civil rights groups and nonprofits, the Anti-Defamation League.

And that letter is gonna be one of the founding documents of really what we might call a third American Republic.

If we say the Second American Republic is founded right after the Civil War, there's a new American Republic that is founded in 1963.

- So you said something a moment about John F. Kennedy that might surprise a lot of people.

That the Civil Rights movement was on the back burner in his administration.

By 1963, John F. Kennedy is in h and last year in the presidency.

It's a transformational year for as president in many respects.

But talk about Kennedy's stance on civil rights when he takes office and how it into his stance in 1963.

- John F. Kennedy and Bobby Kenn are gonna be the two public figu who undergo the most profound transformation in 1963.

And I think what "Freedom Season instead of pushing us towards the assassination, we really watch how that year un Sometimes on a day to day, minute by minute basis.

And we see John F. Kennedy has a profound transformation in When he starts out as president he's unbelievably cautious in the realm of civil rights.

He doesn't think he's gonna have the votes.

He wants to get his tax cut and other parts of his agenda th He really runs for the presidency, in a way, because of foreign policy.

- Right.

- And he wants us to be strong.

He's a pro-democracy, anti-autho anti-communist president, that's who he is.

And when we think about civil ri civil rights might gum up the works for all the things he wants to do domestically and internationally.

By '63, there's no other choice.

And what's so interesting is we see John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy, Bobby Ken wrestling with what to do.

It takes Birmingham and it takes for John F. Kennedy to finally do the speech.

And the speech is really the mon to his civil rights legacy, and that's the June 11th, 1963 televised speech.

And that's where he gives his most passionate address about civil rights, even going as far as talking about negro, and in the parlance of th negro babies dying at different rates than white babies.

- The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated.

- So in that speech, and some of that speech is extemporized, some of that speech is Ted Sorenson and Bobby Kennedy and JFK.

But that speech is a really profound speech.

And it's the best speech given by an American president on racial justice since Abraham So it's really a profound, profound speech.

And it's gonna open up the historical context for Lyndon Johnson who's gonna become even more vociferous.

And in some ways, even more eloquent, right?

But that speech is very, very, very important.

And it's really the tides of history that forced JFK into... You know, he says it best, "Those who do nothing invite shame, as well as violence.

Those who act boldly recognize right, as well as reality."

And the chapter is, it's Kennedy's finest moment as - You mentioned that part of this speech is extemporaneous, Peniel, and there's a reason for Because he decides to do the speech very suddenly on June 11th as the Governor of Alabama, George Wallace, is standing in the schoolhouse door symbolically at the University of Alabama, preventing its integration despite a Supreme Court ruling saying that there must be desegregation on the campus.

Why does Kennedy decide to do the speech that day?

And what are the forces that lead him to address the American public on television that evening?

- Well, he'd been thinking about doing that speech really for the last couple of we And it's really the stand at the schoolhouse door, and the fact that it becomes a peaceful resolution.

It allows him a context away from that crisis, even though there are ongoing crises happening to take the lead.

So Jack Kennedy really uses the And a few days before that speec he gives a tremendous speech in Honolulu on June 9th to a conference of mayors.

And he's touring all these milit in Honolulu, on the West Coast.

And then June 10th, of course, he gives a bravura speech at American University, which is one of the best speeches in American history about peace and nuclear non-proliferation.

And really having a human rights for the United States.

So what I argue, coupled with the June 11th speech, really those three days in the Kennedy presidency are the heart of his presidency.

- We tend to look at civil right and give all the credit to Martin Luther King.

And, of course, he shepherded an enormous burden.

But there are so many other play who have outsized influence at that time too.

And you write about two of them in the book, Malcolm X and James Baldwin.

Talk about the roles that they played in 1963 and beyond.

- Well, James Baldwin is really the beating heart of the Civil Rights movement in I would say, even more than Dr. and that's hard to believe.

When we think about Jimmy Baldwi there's a essay in "the New Yorker" that he writes that's published in November of called Letter From a Region In M Longest essay that "The New Yorker" had ever published.

And it's about race relations, racial justice, but that comes out as the book, "The Fire Next Time," the long essay in "The Fire Next Time" in 1963.

Baldwin becomes a popular figure He becomes a public intellectual a celebrity who both conservatives and intellectuals are debating, agreeing with, disagreeing with.

But you have to go through Baldw He's interviewed in "Mademoiselle" magazine.

He's on the cover of "Time" Maga When we say Jimmy Baldwin in 196 was a big deal, it's extraordina He meets up with Bobby Kennedy on May 24th, 1963, to give Bobby Kennedy an illustration of how Black people are feeling about the Civil Rights movement and the government's role in the - And it's very contentious.

- It's a very contentious three hour meeting.

Bobby is telling them all the gr that the administration is doing on their behalf.

And Baldwin and a young civil rights activist named Jerome Smith, they're not They're saying, "Whatever you're doing is not enough, and people are dying in the stre of Mississippi, New York, there's discrimination."

And they also push Kennedy by sa "If Black people can fight in th on behalf of the country, why are they being abused and segregated and humiliated and not having their citizenship But when we think about Baldwin, Baldwin's friends with Medgar Ev he's friends with Malcolm X, he's friends with Martin Luther King Junior.

He's openly queer, Black man who that the United States can be this beautiful country, this unparalleled country if the country is willing to confront its past.

So for Baldwin, we really are all in this together, as long as we can recognize the humanity in each other.

And Baldwin defines us not as Black and white people, but as long lost, separated, estranged kin.

That we're part of the same fami So when you really dig deep into Baldwin believes in a version of and the beloved community that's completely extraordinary.

And really calls us all to be our aspirational best.

And this contrasts with Malcolm X.

- Right.

- Malcolm X is really in certain ways talking about a reckoning, and he's talking ab political self-determination for Black people.

But Malcolm X becomes Black America's prosecuting attorney.

If Dr. King is the defense attor defending Black and white people teach other and Black and white humanity to each other, Malcolm X is doing something completely different.

He's the prosecutor, saying that there's been a list of crimes that have been done against Black people.

And this year is the time for re - I wanna come back to Martin Lu who really is the central figure of your book.

And what is, I think, the high p of the Civil rights movement, which is the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, which happens in late August, 19 And, of course, we know that for the iconic, I Have a Dream speech.

Talk about that moment, Peniel, and how it comes to be, and what it means for Martin Luther King and the movement.

- That chapter's called The Language of Human Joy, which is a phrase taken from James Baldwin.

King's high point in so many way is the March on Washington, because that march really grows of the preceding months in that It really is the apex of the kind of demonstrations that are happening in Birmingham But there's peaceful demonstrations happening with wh and Hispanic and other allies all across the United States.

And King's speech is the first time that Bobby Kennedy and Jack Kennedy actually hear him give a speech.

And that I Have a Dream speech, he's allotted 10 minutes for tha He takes 17 minutes, and in that 17 minutes, he really weaves a dazzling tale of social justice, racial justic But he also talks about a political reckoning in that sp He says, "We come here today, all of us, to cash a check that has been stamped, insuffici But we refuse to believe that the bank of American democracy is bankrupt."

But also in that speech, he says "We're gonna have to struggle to go to jail together, protest tog but we can build that beloved community," right?

And in that speech, he talks about a dream that he has.

And the dream is a dream of multiracial democracy, right?

And he says, "It's a dream where the sons and daughters of those who enslaved people, as well as the sons and daughters of those who were will come together at the table of brotherhood."

And this is really important, Ma because James Baldwin always talked about a welcome table.

And King establishes the United as this welcome table of multiracial democracy.

And it's an extraordinary speech John Kennedy is very, very much moved by that speech.

RFK says, "It's a hell of a spee So many different people understand that they're feeling a religious or spiritual effect in that speech.

It's the closest most Americans will ever come to attending a mass civil rights August 28th, 1963, it's a really extraordinary moment in American - Where are we at the end of "Freedom Season," the end of 1963?

And how does it set the stage for what comes next?

- Well, it's really bittersweet because what we see by the end o is that there's progress that has been made, but two steps forward, one step The highlight of the year in cer is the March on Washington.

But then the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing happens, and four Black girls between 11 are killed in Birmingham, Alabam There's two Black boys who are a that same day, so six.

James Baldwin becomes really a m in the aftermath of Birmingham, and tries to lead a Christmas bo He leads a massive protest in Foley Square in New York.

And then, of course, on November 22nd, 1963, the assassination happens.

And what's so interesting about the JFK assassination is that that year, alongside of all these freedom marches and demonstrations, there's real very conservative movement that is reflected in the John Birch Society, that's reflected in the National And people like William F. Buckl the intellectual, Norman Podhore But also political figures, like Barry Goldwater and George Wallace and Strom Thu So really, by the end of the yea when we look at the JFK assassin there's something very, very bittersweet that happens.

Where many people feel, after Kennedy's assassination, that Kennedy was assassinated because of his support for the Civil Rights movement, including Black people.

People look upon Kennedy as almo a kind of religious figure, a religious martyr.

So even though there are other martyrs that year, including the four little girls and Medgar Evers, Kennedy encapsulates sort of the agony of that year.

But there's also hope in Kennedy's assassination because so many people feel that the President's death should not be in vain.

And Lyndon Johnson steps up, joint address to Congress, and says that the President's assassination is not gonna be in vain.

- And now the ideas and the idea which he so nobly represented, must and will be translated into effective action.

- But when you listen to now President Johnson's speech, he talks about the hate and the resentment that's in the air that led to President Kennedy's And says he vows to steer the co in a different direction, and that means supporting civil - So you're talking about two presidents, JFK and LBJ, who, in your words, step up to the cause of civil rights.

It might take John F. Kennedy a while, but by 1963, he's really hit his stride in the presidency and, again, elevates the cause.

We are in a very different period today, Peniel.

If 1963 is "Freedom Season," what is 2025 at a time when we have a president taking aim at what he calls wokeism, and trying to dismantle DEI across government and in other sectors of American society?

- Well, I'd say we're definitely in a season of backlash.

We're in a season of regression.

We're in a season really of forg the lessons that we learned duri So it's really a different seaso And in certain ways, we're in a season of reimagining the language that we all used in What's so extraordinary about that year is that we had a common language, even those of us who disagreed.

William F. Buckley and James Baldwin vehemently disagreed.

Buckley calls Baldwin "An eloquent menace."

But they still, two years later, are on stage with each other in Cambridge, En having a vigorous but civil debate with each other.

I'd say we're in a season where we couldn't imagine those kind of debates, because we'd not speaking the same language of democracy and citizenship and dignity.

- So put today in context with our history.

There are clearly ebbs and flows as it relates to racial consciousness and just We saw flow in "Freedom Season," we're seeing an ebb today.

Put that in the context of our h how we swing from one side to th And how would you contextualize what's happening today?

- Right now, we're in a post consensus period where the American people are trying to figure out.

what is the new lingua franca of democracy, citizenship and dignity gonna be What is the ceiling?

But also, what is the floor?

What are we willing to accept the government do on our behalf?

What do we wanna do for ourselve What behaviors are we willing to say are acceptable, and what are not acceptable?

All those things connect with social justice, with issues of equality and citizenship and dignity.

And all those things are easier when there's a broad based conse So what's interesting about '63 is that '63 introduces the consensus that both Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Ger George Herbert Walker Bush, Bill Barack Obama, George W. Bush, are all going to a part of.

Those are very different political leaders, but they all share a specific co about what citizenship and digni Even though people might disagre with what their actions were.

Post Barack Obama, we're in a post consensus America.

And until we achieve a new conse we're not gonna be able to disagree with each other in good faith to have the kind of compromise that's necessary for progress.

- So what is the lesson that we can learn from 1963 that leads us to believe that progressivism is still possible in America?

- Well, I think '63 is a great e of the United States coming toge after it comes close to falling So what was extraordinary about even doing the research here was to see the difficulties and the challenges that people f But also the extraordinary resilience that people had.

And the way in which people from different backgrounds, different races, different relig different ideological and political perspectives, they all came together to tackle big issues.

They didn't always agree, but they really came together in good faith because they wanted things to get better, and they really believed in the I think some of that hope and optimism was coming out of the Second World War.

Some of the resilience was comin out of the Great Depression.

So all of this came together, where people really valued the idea of America.

They valued what America meant to the world.

And in doing so, they came toget and they did extraordinarily courageous things.

Not just Dr. King and some of the famous people we know, but we're talking about sharecroppers and housewives.

We're talking about people who had very little education at We're talking about people at ti who were wealthy and celebrities They all came together because they believed in this idea of America.

And they believed in Baldwin's i of finally achieving our country and ending what he called a racial nightmare.

- The book is "Freedom Season," our guest is Pineal Joseph.

Pineal, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thank you for having me, Mark.

(pleasant music) (pleasant music continues) - [Announcer] This program was funded by the following, Laura and John Beckworth, BP Ame Joe Latimer and Joni Hartgraves.

And also by, and by.

A complete list of funders is av at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ (cheerful music) (bright music)