PHILLIP: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I’M PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING AND YOUR HOST.

TONIGHT, WHAT IS OWED?

REPARATIONS IN BOSTON AND BEYOND.

BOSTON HAS A COMPLEX RACIAL HISTORY.

IT WAS THE FIRST COLONY TO LEGALIZE SLAVERY IN 1641, AND IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO ABOLISH SLAVERY.

NOW BOSTON, LIKE MANY OTHER CITIES ACROSS THE U.S. AND COUNTRIES AROUND THE GLOBE, ARE TAKING A DEEPER LOOK AT THE ISSUE OF REPARATIONS.

HOW TO REPAIR OR MAKE AMENDS FOR NEARLY 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT AND POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SUBJUGATION OF BLACK PEOPLE.

"WHAT IS OWED?," A NEW SEVEN-PART PODCAST PRODUCED BY GBH NEWS, SEEKS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT REPARATIONS MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN ONE OF THE OLDEST CITIES IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE GLOBE.

ITS FIRST EPISODE, "WHEN A CITY TRIES TO HEAL ITSELF," WAS JUST RELEASED.

JOINING US TO DISCUSS THIS EXCITING NEW PODCAST AND OUR DISCUSSION ARE JEROME CAMPBELL, SENIOR PRODUCER OF "WHAT IS OWED?"

SARAYA WINTERSMITH, POLITICS REPORTER FOR GBH NEWS AND HOST OF "WHAT IS OWED?"

KELLIE CARTER JACKSON, CHAIR OF THE AFRICANA STUDIES DEPARTMENT AT WELLESLEY COLLEGE AND THE AUTHOR OF "FORCE AND FREEDOM: BLACK ABOLITIONISTS AND THE POLITICS OF VIOLENCE."

AND GEORGE CHIP GREENIDGE, MEMBER OF THE BOSTON TASK FORCE ON REPARATIONS AND THE FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR OF GREATEST MINDS.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

>> THANK YOU.

PHILLIP: GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE.

JEROME, TALK ABOUT THE PODCAST.

THIS IS POWERFUL.

A PODCAST ON REPARATIONS FOCUSED ON BOSTON.

WHY AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO BE HEARING OVER THE COURSE OF SEVEN EPISODES?

>> THE WHY IS LOOKING AT THE WORK THE CITY COUNCIL PUT FORTH IN 2022, CALLING FOR THE TASK FORCE.

IT CAME OUT OF THIS QUESTION IF REPARATIONS IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN BOSTON, WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?

THAT IS WHAT THE SERIES EXPLORES.

IT IS LOOKING AT THOSE QUESTIONS SEE YOU GET THE HISTORY THAT LED US UP TO THIS POINT AND TRYING TO ADD UP TO THIS QUESTION, IF IT’S GOING TO HAPPEN, WHAT IS IT GOING TO LOOK LIKE?

PHILLIP: LET’S STEP BACK FOR A SECOND AND TALK ABOUT THIS NOTION OF REPARATIONS.

FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT IS SUPER CONTROVERSIAL.

KELLIE, YOU KNOW THIS.

THE QUESTION BECOMES, WELL, YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE 77% OF BLACK AMERICANS SUPPORT THE NOTION OF REPARATIONS, BUT ONLY 18% OF WHITE AMERICANS SUPPORT THE NOTION OF REPARATIONS.

HOW YOU GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B WITH THAT TYPE OF DIFFERENTIAL?

>> IT IS BECAUSE MOST AMERICANS ARE GROSSLY UNINFORMED.

MOST AMERICANS ARE NOT AWARE OF THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY, THE DEEP, VIOLENT HISTORY OF SLAVERY.

THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF THE DEEP, VIOLENT HISTORY OF SEGREGATION, REDLINING.

HOW BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN STRIPPED OF THEIR WEALTH, BLOCKED FROM ENTERING SCHOOLS FOR DECADES OR CENTURIES.

WE NEED TO HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL PROCESS THAT TALKS TO PEOPLE ABOUT THE MEANING OF THIS HISTORY, THE MEANING OF SLAVERY AND HOW IT DISPOSSESSED PEOPLE, HOW WOULD MARGINALIZE PEOPLE.

THEN, I THINK PEOPLE WOULD HAVE A GREATER APPRECIATION, BUT I ALSO THINK WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT NOT JUST THE PAST BUT THE PRESENT.

ONGOING STRUCTURAL RACISM.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE AND HOW ARE BLACK PEOPLE MARGINALIZED?

PHILLIP: I AM GLAD YOU SAID ONGOING STRUCTURAL RACISM.

THAT IS WHAT MAYOR WU WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN SHE APPOINTED MEMBERS OF THE REPARATIONS TASK FORCE, INCLUDING YOU, CHIP.

WHAT MIGHT THIS LOOK LIKE?

YOU HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS ABOUT REPARATIONS.

IF YOU WERE TO REPAIR, HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT DOING IT IN A CITY LIKE BOSTON WHEN ITS MOST RECENT EPISODES OF RACIAL CONFLICT MARKED SPECIFICALLY BY THE 1970’S, BUT WE GO MUCH DEEPER, AS WE POINTED OUT EARLIER.

WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO REALLY SLOW IT DOWN AND LISTEN.

I THINK THAT IS ONE THING.

I THINK IN ORDER FOR THIS TO BE A REAL PROCESS, WE HAVE TO REALLY LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY, HEAR THEIR VOICES AND FIND OUT A DIFFERENT WAY HOW WE HEAR THEM.

SOMETIMES, THE CITY OF BOSTON AND TRADITIONAL STRUCTURES LIKE TO DO A MEETING.

YOU CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR TWO MINUTES, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITH REPARATIONS.

IT BRINGS UP SO MUCH ISSUES AROUND TRAUMA, AROUND PEOPLE’S FAMILY HISTORIES.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND A NEW WAY AND A NEW STRUCTURE IN ORDER TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS SO WE ALL CAN BE PARTICIPATING.

I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TRAVEL.

I WENT TO EVANSTON AND MET WITH REPARATIONS TASK FORCES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I WAS ABLE TO GO AS THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE BOSTON TASK FORCE.

I GOT TO LISTEN AND HEAR OTHER PEOPLE’S STRATEGIES.

HOW THEY WERE DOING WELL, HOW THEY WEREN’T WORKING, HOW THE CITIES WHERE WORKING TOGETHER.

BUT, IT GAVE ME DIFFERENT INSIGHT OF HOW TO TACKLE THIS.

PHILLIP: ONE OF THE CONTROVERSIAL ASPECTS IS THAT IT IS SCALED.

EVANSTON IS A RELATIVELY SMALL PLACE, BUT THEN THERE IS BOSTON, DETROIT, WHICH IS ALSO LOOKING AT THE ISSUE OF REPARATIONS.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS -- YOU WERE BROUGHT IN AS HOST.

I WILL MENTION, YOU HAVE TO HEAR THIS.

SHE DOES A FANTASTIC JOB.

NOT JUST BECAUSE SHE IS MY COLLEAGUE.

AND I WANT TO GIVE HER PROPS.

I ALSO WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU’VE LEARNED.

THE EVANSTON EXAMPLE IS ONE THING, BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE APPLYING THIS REPARATIONS TO LARGE CITIES AND TO STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA, WHICH HAS A REPARATIONS COMMITTEE SET UP?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT IS REALLY CONTINGENT ON THE PROCESS THAT CHIP MENTIONED.

AND US TRAVELING, JEROME AND I TRAVELING TO EVANSTON, ILLINOIS.

WE TALKED TO POLITICAL FOLKS AND COMMUNITY ORGANIZING FOLKS WHO SAID BOTH OF THOSE THINGS HAVE TO BE PART OF GETTING PEOPLE ON BOARD.

TO KELLIE’S EARLIER POINT ABOUT COMMUNITY EDUCATION AND MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT MISINFORMED, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE WILLFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT IT IS A DIFFERENT THING.

[LAUGHTER] PHILLIP: IT IS A MAJOR QUESTION.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS NOT JUST IN THE CONTEXT OF -- WHEN PEOPLE THINK ABOUT REPARATIONS, THEY ONLY THINK ABOUT THE CONDITIONS THAT IMPACTED SLAVERY.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ISSUE, FOR EXAMPLE, OF HOUSING?

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE THAT AFTER WORLD WAR II, THAT YOU HAD REPARATIONS FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

IT WAS CALLED -- IT WAS LOAN PROGRAMS.

VETERAN LOAN PROGRAMS, WHICH CREATED AMERICAN SUBURBS.

THE WHOLE NOTION OF GIVING UP LOANS AND SUBSIDIZING HOUSING FOR WHITE AMERICANS WAS MASSIVE.

OF COURSE, AT THE SAME TIME, YOU EXCLUDED BLACK FOLK.

LET’S HAVE THAT DISCUSSION.

HOW DO REPARATIONS APPLIED TO THAT PARTICULAR FACTOR IN OUR NATION’S HISTORY?

>> HOUSING IS KEY BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY WAYS PEOPLE BUILD WEALTH.

THAT IS FIRST AND FOREMOST.

WHEN YOU HAVE EIGHT OUT OF 10 WHITE AMERICANS OWNING THEIR HOMES AND MAYBE FIVE OUT OF 10 AFRICAN AMERICANS OWNING THEIR HOMES, THAT IS A BIG DISCREPANCY.

YOU THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE GI BILL, WHEN SOLDIERS RETURNED FROM WAR AND GOT THESE MASSIVE BENEFITS TO BUY HOMES.

IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY, THEY GAVE OUT 67,000 LOANS FOR PEOPLE TO GET HOMES.

ONLY 100 WENT TO AFRICAN-AMERICANS, OUT OF 67,000.

YOU CANNOT SORT OF CATCH UP TO THOSE KINDS OF NUMBERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE VALUE OF THOSE HOMES COMPOUNDS OVER TIME FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION.

AND BLACK PEOPLE DON’T HAVE THE ABILITY TO PASS DOWN THAT KIND OF WEALTH, SO THEY ARE REALLY LEFT OUT OF THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP WHICH GETS WIDER AND WIDER.

PHILLIP: WE’VE ALSO HAD EPISODES IN TIME WHERE REPARATIONS -- WE ARE SEEING WHERE THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ACCEPTANCE OF THAT HISTORICAL FACT THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED.

THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO HISTORY.

WE SEE IT IN TERMS OF TEXTBOOKS THAT ARE BEING BANNED IN PLACES LIKE FLORIDA AND TEXAS.

BUT, WE ALSO SEE IT IN TERMS OF ATTITUDES.

HOW DO YOU -- I THINK I HAVE THIS DISCUSSION WITH SARAYA A LONG TIME AGO.

WHEN YOU HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE VERY NOTION OF REPARATIONS, THEY DON’T SEE THE HISTORIC SIGNIFICANCE OR SEE THE PAST THAT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD STAY IN THE PAST, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE CAN HAPPEN TO CHANGE PEOPLE’S MINDS?

OBVIOUSLY, THIS PODCAST IS PART OF THAT ANSWER.

JEROME, SARAYA, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> I THINK -- TO THE POINT ABOUT THAT EARLIER POLL YOU WERE CITING, THE PEW POLL, THERE’S A QUESTION WITHIN IT THAT ASKS HOW MUCH PEOPLE THINK THAT SLAVERY IMPACTS BLACK PEOPLE TODAY.

IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, I THINK A FAIR AMOUNT OR A GREAT AMOUNT, THOSE TWO ANSWERS TOGETHER WAS PRETTY HIGH, LIKE 60% OR 65%.

KNOWING THAT, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS SIMPLY A RESISTANCE TO HISTORY.

I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE DO KNOW THAT SOMETHING IMPACTS THE STATISTICS THAT WE SEE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE BEING DISADVANTAGED.

FOR ME, IT IS MORE SO A QUESTION OF IF WE KNOW THAT SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED AND WE KNOW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DISADVANTAGED, AND YET FOR A LONG TIME, WE’VE NEVER WANTED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION, THERE IS SOMETHING THERE THAT MAKES PEOPLE NOT WANT TO HELP BLACK PEOPLE CATCH UP.

I DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING.

PHILLIP: RACISM?

[LAUGHTER] JUST CURIOUS.

>> WHAT YOUR QUESTION MAKES ME THINK OF IS WHEN WE WERE REPORTING, THERE SEEMS TO BE A WAY OF THE CONTINUUM OF HISTORY FROM WHEN THE ENSLAVED WERE FREED UNTIL NOW, THERE’S A WAY WE TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS ONLY IN TERMS OF THIS ONE MOMENT AND THROUGH OUR SERIES, WE ARE TRY TO MAKE THAT CONNECTION TO SAY THAT IT DID CONTINUE PAST THAT POINT.

WE CAN LOOK AT JIM CROW, WE CAN LOOK AT HOUSING.

WHEN YOU DRAW THAT LINE, I THINK THE GOAL, THE HOPE OF OUR WORK IS THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE CONVERSATIONS AND SAY, OK, THERE ARE ALL THESE TANGIBLE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN DRAW.

LOOK AT THE OPPRESSION OF BLACK PEOPLE TO THIS POINT AND MAY BE REPARATIONS IS RESPONDING NOT JUST TO THIS HISTORICAL MOMENT WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, BUT IS ACTUALLY A PART OF THE WEAVE OF AMERICA.

PHILLIP: THE CONTINUUM.

>> IT IS VERY INTERESTING.

WHAT I AM HOPING THAT THE BOSTON REPARATIONS TASK FORCE WILL DO IS LOCALIZE.

EVEN THOUGH WE HEAR ALL THESE FEDERAL STORIES WHICH ARE VERY TRUE AND SEEPS DOWN, BUT LET’S TALK ABOUT MY GREAT GREAT AUNT WHO HAD A HOUSE RIGHT NEXT TO BERKELEY WHERE THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR WAS AND HOW THAT WAS KNOCKED DOWN IN ORDER, IN TH E GUISE OF URBAN RENEWAL.

IT WAS TAKEN FROM HER BY VERY LITTLE COST.

LET’S TALK ABOUT THOSE LOCAL STORIES.

LET’S TALK ABOUT CHARLES STUART AND HOW HE KILLED HIS WIFE AND BLAMED IT ON A BLACK MAN.

YOU WILL THINK ABOUT THE RECKONING AND REPAIR IN THAT.

PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE THAT EVEN THOUGH I GREW UP IN CAMBRIDGE BUT ALSO LIVED IN THE MISSION HILL AREA WITH MY DAD, I WAS A RECIPIENT OF ONE OF THOSE SCHOLARSHIPS.

THE FAMILY OF STUART, STARTED A FOUNDATION TO HELP THE KIDS AND YOUNG PEOPLE IN MISSION HILL.

ALL THE MONEY THAT WAS RAISED AFTER THAT.

PHILLIP: YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF REPARATIONS?

>> AN EXAMPLE.

I WENT TO THE OPEN SCREENING OF THIS HERE AT WGHBH.

IT REMINDS ME OF THE QUARTER MAIN STORY SHARED IN SAVANNAH ABOUT HOW THIS WOMAN SOUGHT OUT -- THE COST OF INHERITANCE.

THERE ARE SO MANY OF THESE LOCAL STORIES THAT WE NEED TO UPLIFT AND START SHARING ABOUT HOW THIS PROCESS ACTUALLY WORKS.

PHILLIP: THOSE STORIES ARE IMPORTANT.

SPEAKING OF STORIES, I WILL POINT OUT WHAT UPCOMING EPISODE OF "WHAT IS OWED?"

WE LEARNED ABOUT BELINDA SUTTON, A FORMERLY-ENSLAVED WOMAN WHO BECAME THE FIRST PERSON IN MASSACHUSETTS TO FIGHT FOR REPARATION AND WIN.

HERE IS A CLIP ABOUT SUTTON’S STORY.

>> I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT THAT LEGISLATURE IS NOT SAYING YES, WE ARE ACTIVELY AND WILLINGLY WANTING TO GIVE MONEY TO THIS 70-YEAR-OLD BLACK WOMAN JUST OUT OF THE KINDNESS OF THEIR HEART.

WHAT THEY’RE DOING IS SAYING THERE’S A NEW GOVERNMENT IN TOWN, AND THE ROYALS WERE LOYALISTS.

SHE WAS ENSLAVED BY ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST ENSLAVERS IN ALL OF NEW ENGLAND.

AND SO, IT REALLY IS A WAY FOR THEM TO TRY TO PUNISH PEOPLE LIKE THE ROYALS.

SO, THE LEGISLATURE GIVES HER AN ANNUAL SETTLEMENT OF 15 POUNDS AND 12 SHILLINGS, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO HELP HER SURVIVE AND TAKE CARE OF A DAUGHTER WHO IS SICK.

SHE GETS THAT PAYMENT ONLY TWICE.

WHILE IT IS IMPORTANT THAT SHE WINS THAT JUDGMENT, IT’S EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAT SHE DOESN’T GET ALL OF THAT MONEY AND THAT SHE KEEPS FIGHTING BACK FOR THAT MONEY BECAUSE SHE NEEDS IT, BUT ALSO BECAUSE SHE’S OWED IT.

BUT WHAT IT DOES, IT SHOWS US THE WAYS IN WHICH BLACK PEOPLE ARE PUTTING PRESSURE ON, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT, ON ELECTED OFFICIALS TO ACTUALLY LIVE UP TO THE PROMISES OF FREEDOM.

>> PARTICULARLY BECAUSE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT NEW ENGLAND AND THE HEIGHT OF THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE, PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT.

THAT MEANS THAT THERE’S A LOT OF WHITE HELP AND WHITE ADVOCACY.

BUT, BELINDA, I THINK IS A TESTAMENT TO BLACK PEOPLE DOING THEIR OWN THING.

>> YEAH, BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THEIR OWN ABOLITIONIST.

AND GENERALLY, WE’VE TOLD THE STORY OF ABOLITIONISTS THROUGH WHITE JUDGES AND LAWYERS AND ACTIVISTS.

BUT, BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT THE CENTER OF THAT MOVEMENT AS WELL.

SO WHEN WE SAY THAT THIS DOCUMENT HELPS US UNDERSTAND REPARATIONS, I THINK IT REALLY DOES DO THE WORK THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE GRAPPLING WITH TODAY.

HOW DOES IN THIS CASE, SLAVERY, BUT THEN TODAY, A LONG HISTORY OF STRUCTURAL RACISM AND INEQUALITY PREVENT BLACK PEOPLE FROM BEING ABLE TO DETERMINE THEIR OWN LIVES AND LIVELIHOOD?

PHILLIP: BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THEIR OWN ABOLITIONISTS.

THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE LINE, INCREDIBLE NOTION.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS, HARRIET TUBMAN.

THIS WAS A REMARKABLE CLIP.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE AWAY FROM THIS?

>> THAT KIARA SINGLETON IS A WONDERFUL HISTORIAN.

[LAUGHTER] >> YES, SHE IS.

>> ALSO, I DIDN’T KNOW PRIOR TO SITTING DOWN WITH HER AND LOOKING AT THE DOCUMENTS THAT BELINDA FILED THAT BLACK PEOPLE, EVEN AS EARLY AS COLONIAL MASSACHUSETTS, WERE UTILIZING THE COURT SYSTEM TO SUE FOR FREEDOM, TO EVEN IN BELINDA’S CASE AS SHE WAS SUING FOR A PENSION FROM HER ENSLAVERS ESTATE, YOU CAN READ THAT SHE’S ALSO CONDEMNING THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

THAT MEANS EVEN WITH BLACK PEOPLE NOT BEING ALLOWED TO READ OR DETERMINE THEIR OWN LIVELIHOOD OR CONTROL THEIR OWN BODIES OR THEIR OWN TIME, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT AND WRITE IT INTO WORDS THAT THIS IS NOT FAIR, EVEN AS AMERICA IS FORMING AND FOLKS OUTSIDE HER SAYING FREEDOM AND LIBERTY AND JUSTICE.

PHILLIP: THIS IS AMAZING.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS EPISODE TWO OF THE PODCAST.

LET’S TALK ABOUT -- BECAUSE THIS PARTICULAR PODCAST IS DOING SOMETHING ALSO THAT IS SUPER IMPORTANT.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

PEOPLE DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE REASON FOR REPARATIONS.

THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT IT IS BASED ON SIMPLY THE ENSLAVEMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE.

THAT IS NOT SIMPLE, BY THE WAY, BECAUSE THAT IS VERY COMPLEX.

JEROME, ALL OF YOU, WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS FOR GETTING, IF YOU WILL, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE -- LET US JUST START WITH BOSTON AND MASSACHUSETTS -- ENGAGED IN AN ISSUE WHERE THERE IS SO MUCH RESISTANCE?

HOW DOES THE PODCAST DO THAT?

>> I DON’T KNOW IF IT IS THE PODCAST’S JOB.

[LAUGHTER] PHILLIP: THE PODCAST HELPS.

>> YES.

I THINK THE PODCAST IS A PLACE TO START THE CONVERSATION.

I THINK THAT THE IDEA IS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO GET PEOPLE THE TOOLS TO HAVE SMARTER CONVERSATIONS.

I THINK THE END OF 2022 -- I THINK DURING THE PANDEMIC, THERE WAS THIS IDEA OF WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE SHOW UP TO PROTESTS THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN SHOW UP BEFORE.

THE QUESTION OF ARE THEY GOING TO STICK AROUND AND IS THERE SUPPORT GOING TO LAST BEYOND THIS MOMENT?

I THINK THE PODCAST IS SAYING THOSE CONVERSATIONS THAT HAPPENED THEN, WE WANT TO KEEP THAT MOMENTUM GOING.

I THINK THE WAY THE BOSTON TASK FORCE, HOW IT GOT ENACTED AND THE WORK IT IS DOING SHOWS THAT BOSTON IS AT LEAST INTERESTED IN THAT.

THE PODCAST IS SAYING IF THAT WORK IS -- IF THAT MOMENTUM IS GOING TO CONTINUE, HOWEVER WE GOING TO EMPOWER THE COMMUNITY TO HAVE BETTER CONVERSATIONS AROUND IT?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I DO IN MY CLASSROOM IS WE TAKE FIELD TRIPS.

ONE OF THE TRIPS WE TAKE IS TO THE ROYAL PLANTATION SLAVE QUARTERS.

MY STUDENTS ARE ALWAYS BLOWN AWAY BECAUSE THEY ARE LIKE ARE WE GOING TO A PLANTATION?

OVER GOING TO SOUTH CAROLINA?

NO, WE ARE GOING TO MILFORD, WE ARE GOING TO SOMERVILLE.

WE ARE GOING TO THE BOSTON GREATER AREA TO LEARN ABOUT THIS HISTORY.

KIARA IS AN AMAZING TOUR GUIDE.

SHE GAVE US SO MUCH INFORMATION THAT I THINK IT BECAME REALLY REAL FOR STUDENTS TO BE IN A SPACE IN WHICH SLAVERY VERY MUCH EXISTED.

TO TOUR THE HOME, TO SEE THE SLAVE QUARTERS.

TO SEE THE LABOR AND WORK THAT WENT INTO LIVING DURING THAT TIME.

I THINK THAT HAS A PROFOUND IMPACT ON PEOPLE.

WHEN YOU LEARN THIS HISTORY, WHEN YOU LIVE THIS.

>> CAN I SAY ONE THING?

I WENT TO SCHOOL AT MOREHOUSE COLLEGE OF ATLANTA.

SO I WOULD ALWAYS GO AROUND AND SAY I AM FROM BOSTON, AND THEY WOULD SAY GOD, THERE MUST BE NO BLACK PEOPLE.

IT IS JUST ME AND MY MOM.

REAL TALK.

THIS IS A WAY FOR US TO SHOW THAT BOSTON HAS A RICH HISTORY OF BLACK ACTIVISM, AND THE CENTER WHERE A LOT OF ACADEMIA AND ACTIVISTS WERE BORN.

ANOTHER THING IS WE’VE GOT TO GIVE IT TO MAYOR MICHELLE WU.

THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN UNDER A KEVIN WHITE ADMINISTRATION, WALSH ADMINISTRATION.

MAYBE A JAY ADMINISTRATION BUT IT HAPPENED UNDER A WU ADMINISTRATION.

TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION AS ONE OF THE LARGEST CITIES AS THE ONE TO PUSH THIS WITH THE CITY COUNCIL, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

PHILLIP: YOU ARE SPOT ON.

BOSTON IS UNIQUE BECAUSE -- AGAIN, WE THINK OFTENTIMES ONE DIMENSIONALLY.

THIS IS A WAY OF THINKING BEYOND THE TROPES, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.

SARAYA, WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED?

I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN TO EVANSTON, OTHER PLACES, BUT WHAT ABOUT BOSTON ITSELF IN TERMS OF ITS ATTEMPT TO CREATE REPARATIONS IN VARIOUS FORMS?

WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND IN YOUR REPORTING AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS NEXT?

>> WHAT I HAVE FOUND IN MY REPORTING IS THAT THERE’S A LOT OF TENSION AROUND THE TASK FORCE STILL.

>> AND THERE SHOULD BE.

>> I THINK THAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR A LONG TIME FOR BOSTON TO BE READY TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION.

AND BECAUSE IN THE FIRST EPISODE, WE SAY THAT WE SAW THE TASK FORCE GET OFF TO A SLOW START.

IT HAS RAISED SOME ALARMS FOR SOME FOLKS, INCLUDING SOME FOLKS WITHIN THE CITY AND SOME FOLKS WHO HELPED TO CREATE THE TASK FORCE LEGISLATION.

I THINK YOU WILL HEAR CHIP LATER IN THE PODCAST SAY IT IS UP TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SEE THE CONVERSATION MOVE FORWARD TO KIND OF KEEP PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT.

I THINK THAT MUCH IS TRUE.

BUT, I DO ALSO THINK THERE IS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CITY TO TREAT THE TASK FORCE -- PHILLIP: THE TENSION YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, IT IS BASED ON WHAT ESSENTIALLY?

YOU ARE SAYING THERE IS TENSION?

>> SLOW-MOVING PROCESS.

I THINK WHEN THE TASK FORCE GOT TOGETHER, IT WAS FEBRUARY OF 2023.

WE DIDN’T SEE THEM MEET UNTIL MAY FOR THE FIRST TIME.

PHILLIP: IT IS BOUND TO BE SLOW.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A PROCESS WHERE THERE IS RESISTANCE AND PEOPLE ARE STILL EVEN TRYING TO DEFINE REPARATIONS, IT IS GOING TO BE SLOW.

>> YOU BRING DIFFERENT ACTIVISTS IN THE ROOM, THERE ARE 17, 18 DIFFERENT GROUPS DOING THIS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ALL WITH DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS.

THE MINUTE YOU STAND UP AND SAY, HEY, THIS IS WHAT REPARATIONS IS, YOU WILL GET 15 PEOPLE.

YOU CREATE CONVERSATION.

PHILLIP: IN 30 SECONDS, TELL ME WHAT WAS THE MOST SURPRISING THING FOR YOU ABOUT EXPLORING ISSUES OF REPARATIONS?

AND I WILL GIVE PROPS TO RANDALL KENNEDY -- RANDALL ROBINSON, RATHER, WHO YEARS AGO, I WILL GIVE PROPS TO RANDALL KENNEDY TOO, BUT TO RANDALL ROBINSON WHO TALKED ABOUT "THE DEBT" YEARS AGO.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SURPRISING THINGS YOU HAVE LEARNED?

>> FOIRR ME, IT HAS BEEN THAT CITIES OR EVEN STATES WANT TO PURSUE THIS.

IN 2024, THAT THERE IS STILL AN ENERGY AND A DESIRE TO EVEN HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

PHILLIP: JEROME?

>> I THINK IT IS THE PEOPLE WE SPOKE TO IN THIS PODCAST.

I WAS SURPRISED TO HEAR THE HISTORY OF REPARATIONS HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR SO LONG IN HISTORY AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE ARE STILL AROUND AND STILL INFORM US, SO WE CAN HAVE THAT CONNECTION.

PHILLIP: CHIP?

>> YOU HAVE TO THINK BACK AND REALLY LOOK AT SOME OF OUR BOSTON PIONEERS.

MANY OF OUR FAMILY MEMBERS, OUR GRANDMOTHERS, GRANDFATHERS, GREAT-GRANDFATHERS, GREAT-GRANDMOTHERS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WORK BY PUTTING THEIR KID ON THE BUS.

THAT WAS A FORM OF ACTIVISM.

YOU’VE GOT TO GIVE IT UP TO JIM MAGUIRE AND ALL OF THEM.

THE MAIN THING IS THAT REPARATIONS IS A LARGER CONVERSATION THAT THE CITY NEEDS TO HAVE AND I CAN’T WAIT TO REALLY PUSH FORWARD WITH THE TASK FORCE TO DO THAT WORK.

PHILLIP: INDEED.

30 SECONDS?

>> THE CONVERSATION HAPPENS IN WAVES AND THAT NO MATTER HOW FAR BACK YOU LOOK, THERE ARE ALWAYS ROOTS HERE.

PHILLIP: EXCELLENT.

THANK YOU.

THIS HAS BEEN AMAZING.

FOLKS, THAT IS THE END OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR GUESTS.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LISTEN TO "WHAT IS OWED?"

ON GBHNEWS.ORG OR YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST PLATFORM.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, YOUTUBE AND FACEBOOK.

THANK YOU.