♪ ♪ GRAHAM: Good evening everyone and, uh, welcome to P&P Live.

I'm Brad Graham the co-owner of Politics and Prose along with my wife Lisa Muscatine.

We have a, a great program for you this evening featuring Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Costa here to talk about their revelatory new book Peril, covering the last months of the Trump administration and the first months of Biden's presidency.

Bob Woodward, of course, has been observing and reporting in Washington for half a century.

In his five decades with the Washington Post where he remains an associate editor, he's covered ten Presidents and shared two Pulitzer Prizes, first for The Post coverage of the Watergate scandal and second as the lead reporter for coverage of the 9/11 terrorists attacks.

Bob Costa's already has made a name for himself as national political reporter at The Post, uh, where he’s worked for nearly eight years following several years at The National Review.

He's also served as moderator and managing editor of Washington Week on PBS and as a political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC.

In conversation with, with the authors will be Gene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist at The Post who in his four decades with the paper also has covered city hall, reported from Europe and South America, and edited the Style section.

Additionally, he's the author of three books, he's working on a forth, and appears frequently on MSNBC as a political analyst.

So gentlemen, the screen is yours.

(laughs) ROBINSON: Thanks so much, Brad.

And it's, uh, I j, just first wanna say what a, what a pleasure and what an honor it is, uh, to be doing this tonight.

Um, Brad, I've known you for many years.

Um, uh, you were my predecessor and South America correspondent at The Post.

Um, uh, R, Bob Costa, uh, I've known you since you came to work at The Washington Post and, and very quickly saw, um, I, and, and admired your doggedness and persistence as a reporter and the way you worked your sources.

As I said, you know, this is, this is a great, this is a great young reporter.

And Bob Woodward, um, I, I've known you for 41 and a half years.

(laughs) You, you hired me at The Washington Post.

Uh, and it will, suffice it to say... WOODWARD: What a mistake!

(laughter) ROBINSON: Well, you can, uh, you can, you can try to atone for that if you want, but it's too late to take it back.

WOODWARD: Don’t worry.

ROBINSON: And, uh, uh, you know, it, it will suffice to say that you are the great reporter of our time.

Uh, and it is, uh...

So it is a real privilege to be here with, with the two you, um, to talk about Peril.

And, and so my first question is about the making of the book.

And so, how did this collaboration come about?

WOODWARD: It was actually, um, a match made in, uh, Trump's hotel in, uh, Washington in 2016.

Uh, Costa said to me, "You know, uh, Trump might be President."

He was on the verge of getting the nomination.

And, uh, Costa said, "We should go interview him."

So we did.

And, um, I got two titles from the interview, uh, when Trump talked about, uh, "I always bring out fear or I use fear to get my way and I bring out rage in people."

So Fear and Rage came from that interview.

And then, uh, after we had, a, afterwards, after the interview and Trump was very...

I think, if, he said, some things, uh, that didn't come out, didn't actually happen.

For instance, he promised he would, if he was elected President, he would end the national debt in the first term and, uh, as I observed that has not happened.

In fact, the national debt... (laughter) Has gone through the roof, uh, in his four years as President.

And, and then, uh, Costa and I talked.

And Bob, you remember what you said to me.

COSTA: Well Bob we had a, several conversations at the time about how we have to take Trump seriously.

But I really think and, and Bob Woodward and I have discussed this that that interview in 2016 was a precursor to this book.

In, in particular in terms of the method.

When I approached Woodward and we said, “Hey let’s talk, go talk to this candidate Donald Trump.” He said, “Let’s just not go in there with a fishing pole a, as reporters and try to get different sound bites.

Let's prepare, really prepare for the interview."

And he showed me some of these documents that he has presented to other Presidential candidates and Presidents in the past.

And he said to me back in 2016 in February and March as we were getting ready, "Think about decisions.

Why did Trump decide to run?

How does he want to use power?

If he achieves and wins the Presidency, how would he wield that power?

Does he understand it?

What does he want?

What's his goal?"

And in, in the heart of a campaign Trump had effectively sewn up the nomination in March of 2016.

We went in there to have a governing conversation with Donald Trump.

And Trump even seemed at the time taken aback by the interview, which was quite long.

Uh, it was not about really topics of the day.

It was about the Presidency.

And that to me was one of those moments where I sat back as a reporter and said, "This method, this approach of really looking at the governing possibilities first not the political issues, is critical."

And I said to myself too, "We pro, probably aren't doing this enough, uh, as we cover this campaign.” And Woodward and I have remained close since as reporters thinking through these issues, discussing the office of the Presidency, power, decisions.

WOODWARD: Mm-hmm.

ROBINSON: That sounds fascinating.

You know, as, as I read Peril over the last few days, um, you know, just pretty regularly my jaw would drop as I... (laughs) Would come across a passage.

And I'd just say, you know, "Whoa!” What was it that, that, just jumped out at you and made you say, "Whoa."

WOODWARD: Well what, uh, the theme of what we found.

And it truly surprised us that, uh, this period between the election and the inauguration of Biden was a national security crisis not just a domestic crisis and the worry that Trump might have a Reichstag moment and, oh, what would be the, uh, domestic impact of that?

What we didn't realize is that the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, were watching the United States and, uh, were terrified about what was going on, and put themselves on military alert.

In fact, uh, the Chinese at one point, General Li, the head of the Chinese military, uh, was telling people, and it was in the intelligence reports, he thought, uh, the United States was going to attack China.

And when General Milley, chairman of The Joint Chiefs, uh, saw this, this was a crisis because when the adversary thinks you might attack them, as Milley told his senior staff, then you have to worry they may attack you.

You may have a Pearl Harbor.

And, uh, if you put yourself in Milley's shoes as we tried to do with our reporting of, uh, how, how this all went down, it was, uh, a very dangerous time.

And, uh, later, uh, the, the, it's been said these were secret calls, phone calls he had with General Li.

They were on a top secret back channel, but they were not secret.

And, uh, the second call, uh, after two days after the January 6th insurrection, uh, he was, uh, had intelligence that the Chinese thought we, United States was collapsing.

And once again, he had to deal with General Li.

And, uh, he brought in the intelligence agencies, he, uh, the NSA, National Security Agency.

Gina Haspel was CIA director and told her, uh, "Look, at everything."

Told the Joint Chiefs.

Called up the admiral who ran operations, uh, around China and said, "Cancel the exercises because they may be misread by the Chinese as provocative."

So these were not seen.

But this was a moment.

Uh, this is a military person's nightmare and, uh, to have an adversary think you might attack them and then later to have the adversary, uh, actually think that you, your own government, might collapse.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

That, and that's just astonishing.

Um, you e, y, y, you guys write that during that time, um, General Milley was concerned that, um, uh, that President Trump had suffered a serious mental decline in the, in the aftermath of the election.

Um, and I'm curious.

I'd like both of you to weigh in on this maybe starting with Bob Costa.

Um... Why was this, why was this that much of a surprise?

The way Trump was acting, why was this that much of a surprise to Milley at this, at that point given what he had seen from Trump and all the other sort of jaw dropping moments that we see, uh, that we learn of in, in the book?

Um, um, Bob Costa?

COSTA: Our reporting, eh, does not cast it or show it to be a surprise.

It's a culmination.

It's a conclusion following months of a general's assessments up close of President Trump going back to Lafayette Square.

We have scenes in the book of President Trump screaming at military leaders, civilian and in uniform, about the protest in Washington DC and his desire to bring combat troops into Washington DC to confront the protestors.

We see President Trump issuing a, his own memo outside of the usual channels to withdraw US Troops from Afghanistan in November of 2020, a very critical moment in the book because it causes people like Chairman Mi, Milley to realize this President could go outside of the channel not only on withdrawal, uh, when it comes to Afghanistan and put his black, uh, si, uh, Sharpie signature on some kind of document that it leads to, uh, a situation with dire consequences, but that same kind of behavior, that conduct, coupled with President Trump's anger and fury over his defeat, uh, to Biden could lead to challenges to perhaps even a crisis or catastrophe with US nuclear arsenal.

And that's why on January 8th it, he calls in members of the NMCC, uh, the, the brigadier generals, the, the colonels who run the, the strike operations in the pentagrooms, Pentagons War Room.

And he says, "Follow the procedure.

And make sure I'm part of this procedure.

I need to be on the net.

Bring me in.

If you get a call from anybody, call me."

Now, Milley's not in the chain of command, but he wants to be part of the procedure and he's supposed to be part of the procedure.

And he says to them each as he goes around the room, "Got it?"

"Yes, sir."

"Got it?"

"Yes, sir."

And it's quite a moment because he is not a psychiatrist, but he's the senior military officer in the United States making a conclusion that the President he's seen up close is in serious mental decline.

And he's also getting the Speaker of the House that same day, Nancy Pelosi, calling him and saying, "He's crazy," speaking of President Trump.

And we have the whole transcript in the book, a transcript that's never been revealed to the public before, and she's saying, "He's crazy.

You better make sure you have some control over this nuclear arsenal so something, uh, that could trigger war, perhaps even war with China or another adversary, doesn't happen."

ROBINSON: Uh, you know, it's just, um, I, I guess, I'm asking because, um, it, it, it's just cer, certainly not the first crazy we saw from Trump or not the first crazy we've seen, I mean, you, you know, in, chronologically in, in the book.

I mean, early in the Trump administration we, we have him, um, uh, uh, refusing for a while to sign off on an aircraft carrier because he doesn't, he doesn't quite like the look of it.

You know, he thinks that the tower should be in a different position.

(laughs) He's, you know, he's a naval architect all of a sudden.

Um, uh, and, uh, you have Paul Ryan, uh, the former Speaker of the House, um, you know, getting a briefing on a narcissistic personality disorder.

Um, uh, and, and you have to wonder, um, you know, how many people sort of knew what they were dealing with, uh, when they were dealing with, with, with Donald Trump.

You mentioned, um, the Lafayette Square Park, um, uh, debacle in, in June, um, 2020 when, um, when the, uh, you know, the, uh, peaceful demonstration were cleared violently o, out of the area and President walked over to, um, St. John's Church, uh, to hold up the Bible.

Um, Milley, uh, uh, General Milley, went with him, regretted it, later apologized for having gone especially in his fatigues.

Um, uh, afterwards, um, uh, Secretary, um, then Secretary of Defense Mark Esper did an interesting thing.

He, um, um, ha, having heard this verbaling about the use of the, possible use of the Insurrection Act, um, to mobilize, uh, the military against Black Lives Matter demonstrators.

Um, uh, Esper announced, publicly announced that, uh, there was no need to invoke the Insurrection Act, and, uh, and, and Trump was furious.

He was furious and he yelled at, at, at Esper, "You're talking away my authorities."

Um, you know, Bob Woodward, isn't that exactly what Esper was doing?

Wasn't he, wasn't he, he precisely trying, um, to, to make it, uh, more difficult, if not impossible, uh, for... WOODWARD: Uh, yes, he... ROBINSON: President Trump to do that, mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Uh, Esper uh, the Insurrection Act of 1807 gave the President alone the authority to mobilize the military, uh, for domestic purposes and what Esper was afraid of this.

I mean, think of the clash between combat troops, 82nd Airborne, and the protestors on Black Lives Matter.

And he, you know, it could have been 1968 in Washington again.

ROBINSON: Yeah.

WOODWARD: And so he went public and said, "I don't think, I think the National Guard can handle and deal with the protester, we don’t need combat troops.” And the scenes of Trump raging, furiously at, at Esper and Esper really, uh, somebody I believe, uh, based on our reporting is underestimated.

He would not be pushed around and he, and he actually shoved his statement at Trump, uh, who was sitting at the resolute desk.

You know, "This is what I said.

Understand, don't miss interpret it."

And, uh, so this is one of the many incidences where Milley just said, "My God, uh, there is a mental decline here.

There is a danger."

And, you, he had a wonderful phrase for it, uh, which I want to read so I don't screw it up.

(laughs) WOODWARD: For, M, for Milley said, "This is the absolute darkest moment of theoretical possibility."

Other words, the moment was dark, but the possibility was theoretical, but then it became real when you mix it with the Trump personality and this, this irrational raging.

So what Esper and Milley realized when the confronted Trump on this that they had actually checkmated him.

Anyone, I mean, Gene and worked to, together for, uh, years.

(laughs) I mean, there's a point where you checkmate the boss.

You keep the boss... COSTA: Yeah.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: From doing what will be damage to the institution or even the boss.

And they believed they checkmated, uh, uh, Trump on bringing the combat troops to Washington.

So this is the, the beginning of Milley's experience and Esper's experience and they were working in tandem.

Uh, the problem Esper had, he was fired by Trump... ROBINSON: Right.

Right.

WOODWARD: A few days after the election and, uh, Trump put in, uh, somebody who was, uh, Chris Miller who was, n, no one knew what was going on there.

Uh, there was a lot of or there was no trust.

Uh, and, and so you have the moment after moment.

I mean, imagine...

I don't want to dwell on this... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Too much, but here Milley is up in Miller's office and sees this memo that Trump has signed, "Withdraw the troops from Afghanistan.” Uh, Milley had, is, under the law is supposed to be involved in this and he was not.

He was surprised.

They go over to the White House and eventually Trump nullifies that memo, but clearly he will go, Trump will go offline.

ROBINSON: Let me jump, um, jump back to, to the actual events of, of, uh, January 6th for a minute, um, uh, because they continue to reverberate and will continue to reverberate, uh, in our politics and in our national life, I think, for a long time.

Um, and, and so, this question's for, for Bob Costa.

The, uh, um, eh...

The West Wing apparently was more or less deserted that day.

There were very few people there.

And from the description in Peril, um, the President seems almost memorie...

Mesmerized or transfixed by the television interviews and almost out of it in a, um, in a sense.

Is that a, is that unfair characterization?

Or how would you, uh, Bob Costa, characterize, um, um, the reporting about Trump and inside the West Wing on that day?

COSTA: As Bob Woodward has said, we have discovered this national security crisis.

Uh, a very grave situation on the national security front during the transition, but especially after the insurrection on January 6th.

But we've also found a very grave domestic political crisis that bordered on being a constitutional crisis if a few things had gone differently.

And while the events in the West Wing in the afternoon of January 6th, it was pretty deserted.

President Trump is watching TV in kind of a flat mood.

It's not accurate to think about that as President Trump in January 6th.

The most, some of, to me as the report, some of the most important parts of that section of the book come in the days before January 6th.

And while President Trump may have been watching TV and seemingly idle during the riot itself, we see President Trump through our reporting be a very active player in the days before January 6.

On January 2nd, senators like Mike Lee and Lindsey Graham, two top Republicans, close allies, are being pressured by the White House.

Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, Rudy Giuliani, and John Eastman, this conservative lawyer, to think through how to help President Trump get his aim of throwing some of these electors out, moving the election to the House of Representatives where Republicans, because they have control of the most delegations could potentially tip the election to President Trump.

And a very important meeting comes on January 4th where Vice President Pence and his lawyer and his advisors come into the oval office.

President Trump is there with John Eastman this conservative lawyer, and for the first time we've published this memo that has gotten a lot of attention this week, a six part memo from John Eastman outlining how Pence could throw out electors and give the election to Trump.

And you see in this scene President Trump saying to Pence, "Listen to John Eastman.

Listen to John.

Listen to John."

And Eastman has this memo saying it's constitutional and legal for Pence to essentially walk up on January 6, and then walk away.

And so, this is President Trump having a pressure campaign of his own Vice President and using the legal con, conservative community and his allies there, the political community allies on the outside like Giuliani and Steve Bannon who were together on January 5th.

All these things are happening behind the scenes.

And that's what matters in the reporting as much or probably more than just President Trump sitting there on January 6th watching TV.

ROBINSON: That's fascinating.

What, uh, let's talk a mi, talk for a minute about, um, Vice President Pence, um, whom, um, whom President Trump urged to, you know, the to read the Eastman mem, memo.

And he kept talking about Eastman.

And, and he says it's legal.

He says you can do it.

Um, ultimately, um, the Vice President, um, uh, decides based on the legal advice he was getting, um, that, no, he couldn't just throw out the, um, the, the, the votes.

And, and meanwhile I believe it was Senator, um, Senator Lee who had, um, uh, who had, who had taken it on himself to call the electoral election officials in some of the states and, and, and learn that none of the states was gonna toss out its electors anyhow.

Um, but, um... Bob Woodward, talk a bit about Pence and how you came to view him after your reporting.

Was he resolute throughout this crisis?

Was he tempted, um, um, perhaps to see what he could do to, to satisfy the President he had served so loyally, um, for four years?

Um, uh, a, and how you, how do you end, how, how should we end up seeing him, um, uh, based on, on what, what you guys find out, found out?

WOODWARD: Um, it, it's complicated and multidimensional.

Uh, Pence wanted to accommodate Trump because Pence, uh, knew that if something could be worked out here he might be able to stay as Vice President.

He may...

It was so obvious.

I mean, there are the scenes where, uh, which, which we can report for the first time where Trump and Pence are in the oval office and, uh, Trump is saying to him, "Don't you wish you had this power?

Wouldn't it, wouldn't this be great?"

And Pence is resisting, but, uh, he's back and forth.

And he had some lawyers and counselors who are identified, uh, in the book saying, "No, you can't do this.

You don't have the power."

And as you pointed out, at one point Pence and Dan Quayle, the former Vice President who also it was, it had been from, uh, Indiana, um, told Pence, said, "Look, you don't have that power."

He actually cited the Constitution and the law.

But you see, a hesitation waltz on Pence's part in all of this.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Finally, at the end he does, uh, stand up and do what is constitutional and realizes, uh, and, and says to advisors, "Okay, I'm going to do what, uh, the Conservative Constitutionalists would do."

But this was a, this was part of the peril in all of this that, if Pence had gone, uh, the other way and decided, "I'm confused, I don't know how we certify the winner here," uh, and walked away, uh, which he could've done... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: And, of course.

(laughs) Trump was very anxious to have him to do, we would've had a Constitutional crisis, a crisis about the legitimacy of the Presidency.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Who's President?

Who won?

And so forth.

And so this again is one of the, uh... ROBINSON: Hm.

WOODWARD: Political and constitutional bullets that we dodged the whole time.

ROBINSON: We did.

And, and, you know, it, and it's, it's almost funny to say we dodged the bullet because then we went through January 6th.

Um, and, and there are millions of Americans who, who still deny the legitimacy of the election.

But in fact, we did dodge a larger caliber bullet that, um, that would've been this, um, this absolute constitutional crisis if Pence had acted.

Those conversations you referred to, the book quotes, um, um, President Trump saying to, to his Vice President, "Wouldn't it almost be cool to have that power, um, to, to just throw out the votes."

And, um, when Pence says no.

(laughs) Um, Trump says, "I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."

Um, and uh, and he says, "You betrayed me.

I made you.

You were nothing."

It's all about Donald Trump, isn't it?

Isn't it?

I mean, isn't, isn't everything from the beginning to the end?

Every minute of every day, isn't it all about Donald Trump?

Um, and I use the present tense because I assume it's still that way.

Is, is that what you found from your reporting?

COSTA: Uh, one thing that really stood out to us in our reporting, Gene, is after Pence leaves the oval office, uh, he looks white as a ghost, uh, rattled.

Uh, uh, people who were seeing him at that time said he was shook, and he goes home.

He has this dinner scheduled with donors that night.

But President Trump on January 5th stays at the White House and he opens the door.

This is the big moment.

Uh, and at the Willard Hotel you have Giuliani and Bannon and other Trump allies hu, huddling together in their own sort of war room.

And out in the streets, and I was in the streets of Washington that night reporting, and it was, it was chaos.

Cops fighting with protestors.

Protestors in red caps walking through the streets, and what we found out is President Trump opens the door to the oval office in the freezing weather, you know, and takes it all in.

Hears the cries of his supporters and says, "Isn't that terrific."

And when some of Trumps aides come in the room they start to shiver.

They say, "What is going on?

Is someone gonna close the door?"

He doesn't close the door.

(laughs) COSTA: He keeps it open.

He wants to hear his people out there.

And Bob Woodward said to me, it, it almost reminded him of Nixon talking to the pictures on the walls in 1974.

WOODWARD: And, and what's, what's interesting about it, um, and... Bob Costa and I talked about this at length, because when we discovered what happened at this moment, it, it's almost a, a mystical engagement that Trump has with the mob out there.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm, yeah.

WOODWARD: His people.

And he's mesmerized by it.

And, uh, we discussed this.

And when Nixon, uh, in his final days was talking to the pictures on the wall, Nixon was talking to Washington and Lincoln.

Trump was talking to his mob.

And those, that is his connection to the population and, uh, it is, uh, uh, the last lines in the book are "Peril remains."

Because Trump... ROBINSON: Yeah.

WOODWARD: And, uh, what he stands for, uh, and, uh, is, is out there in, in the political world now.

Uh, some, some polls show that he would beat Biden.

He has 30, Trump has 30 to 40% of the people believing that, uh, the election was stolen from him when, you know, the biggest Trump supporters, Lindsey Graham and Senator Mike Lee, investigated the charges and came up and concluded it's zero.

That, but Trump won't listen to his own allies who... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Investigate and say there's nothing here.

ROBINSON: The, um, the, the book has, um, these, you know, jaw dra, dropping chapters about, about, uh, Trump in the, in the final days of the Trump administration, but it, it also has chapters, uh, about, um, Joe Bidden and the incoming Biden administration.

And when you read, you, you switch from one to the other, it's almost like you're talking about two different countries, right?

You're talking about one country that's where everything is crazy and one country where things are more orderly and, and, and normal and work the way you kind of think, um, government in Washington works no matter which party is in, is in charge.

Is that a fair characterization of the contrast that you get in the book?

And are, and, and is it a book of not just two, um, uh, fascinating individuals, but, but two countries as well?

COSTA: No, I wouldn't phrase it particularly that way, uh, with respect.

These are intertwined stories, and we begin the book with the Milley moment January 8th.

And you, you understand where this country ended up in the days after the insurrection.

But we also wanted to answer the question in our reporting, how did we get there and where is this nation going?

And so, we go back to Charlottesville, back to Biden's decision to run.

Someone who had run twice before, '88, '2008, never really found his footing in any of those races in any meaningful way, but he always had this burning ambition even eight years after being Vice President.

Uh, and he decided to run spurred by this belief that what was happening in the country, a White Supremacists march in Central Virginia, this was un-American.

And his traditional center left Democratic politics never really caught fire, but he, his ability to see democracy, uh, at risk, that fueled him in a different way to almost feel like he was on a mission, uh, in the years of 2017, 2018, 2019 before he made a formal decision to almost will himself to run to try to confront what Trump, in his mind, was doing to the country.

And, and it's a human story, it's a political story, and it's a reaction.

ROBINSON: Um... It’s, it’s almost time to, um, uh, start taking some, some questions from the audience, um.

But before we do, I have just one, um, one quick question, uh, for both of you, um, and I'll start with Bob Costa and then Bob Woodward.

Is he running again?

Is Trump gonna run again?

COSTA: He continues to tease it publicly and says to everybody he knows, "You're going to like my decision."

Uh, his confidants who are working with him now are updating him on polling all the time in New Jersey and Florida telling him he's the most popular Republican in the country, that he has the political capital.

He's saying to many people behind the scenes in our book he wants to run again.

Uh, and he tells Brad Parscale, his former campaign manager, this past summer, he, he, he wants that army back.

That's his phrase.

He had an army.

He wants it back, and if he runs again, Parscale told others privately, he's going to run not for any sort of policy aim, but he's goin to run because he believes the election was stolen and he wants vengeance.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm, Bob Woodward?

WOODWARD: Uh, and, and I think, he, uh, he's definitely, uh, running.

Uh, the really interesting question is why?

What, uh, what is the rationale for the candidacy, uh, Gene as we used to talk about?

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: You know, why this candidate, why are they running?

Uh, what would they do if they won?

And Trump has based his whole, I mean, all this year, on this issue, the election was stolen.

And, uh, he pivots around that.

And, uh, I, I think it's so important to examine exactly, was the election stolen?

Bob Costa and I spent months on this question.

There is no evidence.

(laughs) And when you have Senators Lindsey Graham and Senators, um, Mike Lee investigate.

I mean, here where there was a, uh, scene where, uh, it's an extended scene where Mike Lee is sitting because he reads this memo from John Eastman saying there was alternative slates of electors in seven states, and La, Lee is going, "What?

I haven't heard that.

I haven't seen that.

That would be major news."

And a senator can get anyone on the phone, as we know.

And he sits there for a couple of days and calls all the heads of the legislators in Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Georgia and says, "Um, alternative electors?"

"No.

Zero," time and time, there's nothing there.

And he tries to tell Trump personally this and convey that message as has Lindsey Graham, his supporters, you know.

Uh, Gene, uh... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: You know, it's kind of like at The Washington Post when we're working on a story and some editor says, "Well, the story's there."

They, and, and the reporter from the field sometimes... (laughs) WOODWARD: Has to come in and say, "No, it's not there.

It does not...” ROBINSON: It's not there, yes.

WOODWARD: “Exist."

ROBINSON: Yeah.

Yeah.

WOODWARD: And sometimes these ideas... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: That editors and Presidents have in their head, uh, these things do not exist.

And the existence of a stolen election is a total fantasy.

Uh, and, uh, you know, we scratched around.

We called people.

We went out into the night.

I mean, this is old time stuff, knocking on doors, reluctant sources, making sure... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: That we got, uh, the best obtainable version of what occurred here.

And what occurred here is there was no stolen election.

ROBINSON: I'm gonna turn to some of the questions we have from the audience.

And so, uh, first one, um, "Now, how would you explain, uh, the overreaching of General Milley?

It seems that he stepped outside the regular channels.

Isn't this considered treasonous."

Did Milley in fact step outside of, uh, any normal channels in his communications with the Chinese or, or, or was this within, um, within, his lane?

He has a wide lane.

He's the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, but was it within his lane?

COSTA: Chairman Milley's going to testify before Congress next week and he has issued a statement ahead of that testimony, uh, saying that he worked within the procedures, uh, to make sure that there was not some kind of miscommunication.

As Bob and I write, miscommunication can be the seed of war.

Milley knew that and he wanted to avoid it on October 30th, 2020, that's why there was the call with General Lee, and again, on January 8th 2021.

And it's important to read the full book because the full book, it has the full context.

And the context shows that in each of these moments in the calls he was reading in other people.

He was calling up Gina Haspel, the CIA director.

He was talking to Paul Nakasone running the National Security Agency.

He was talking to the Joint Chiefs.

So this is a senior military officer working to deescalate, uh, a potential crisis.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

COSTA: And it's, it's clear that these kind of calls between military leaders can be routine, but our book shows that while calls between such leaders can be routine certainly, this moment was anything but routine.

It was a moment on a back channel to try to avoid global war, to avoid some kind of miscommunication in the South China Sea or a President who they believed didn't, he believed was in decline acting out in a rash way, a catastrophic way.

A, and with the NMCC exchange you see him trying to protect, uh, the country from having miscommunication, t-uh, or an isolated call from the White House or even the President causing a missile to be fired or even the nuclear arsenal to be used.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Um, second question, um, uh, talk a bit about Bill Barr's role in the final couple of months.

Um, uh, the, the book, uh, reports instances in which Barr, um, was also, uh, a, a, a break, uh, or a, or a, or a buffer, um, uh, uh, keeping the President from, uh, perhaps doing, uh, uh, crazy things.

Um, a, and the question is, was, was this about preserving and restoring or restoring his own reputation?

Um, uh, was it about, in some way to protect, uh, the institutions, the Justice Department, and, uh, and, indeed the, the proper role of the executive branch?

Um, what, what, what'd you get?

Um, what can you tell us about Bill, Bill Barr?

How do you sum up his role?

WOODWARD: A very interesting personality and certainly he, he wants to, uh, leave.

And he left the Trump administration with his reputation in tact with some people, not with others.

What we found most interesting about Barr was that he would have private meetings with Trump and, uh, in the middle of last year, the election year, he went to Trump and he said, "I traveled the country.

Uh, I see more people out there.

I see your supporters.

And you have incredible support there.

But Mr. President, I need to tell you that your supporters think you are an f'ing (bleep), sorry.

(laughs) WOODWARD: I should've made that a-hole, uh, but.

ROBINSON: Well... (laughter) WOODWARD: But that's... ROBINSON: It is what it is, Bob.

COSTA: Bob, Bob Wood, Bob Woodward said the real word when we were on The Colbert Show the other night and I go, "Oh boy, here we go."

(laughter) WOODWARD: But if, I mean, I, it, it's stunning and, and, um, Barr is trying to give him political advice, "You think you are an f'ing political genius, but you're not."

And, uh, Barr is a conservative Republican and wants Trump to win.

And when he sees, uh, the whole administration, uh, ki, I mean, there really is an epic collapse of the Presidency in this period, November, December... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Uh, January.

When he saw this, uh, Barr wanted out and he wrote a resignation letter to Trump, which is really a love letter.

(laughs) About all the great things you've done.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: And, uh, hoping he can sneak out without getting a negative Trump tweet.

And Trump accommodates him and tweets and says, "Oh, Bill Barr has done a great job."

Uh, so, you know, this, this, this is complicated.

But if you put it all together, uh, all of these people one way or another, including Pence, including Barr, certainly including, uh, Milley, including the Republican leadership on The Hill, Senator McConnell, uh, the House ma, Minority Leader McCarthy had disdain for Trump.

And they, behind the scenes would, uh, say things sometimes, uh, to his face.

And there, there is, uh, a sense when you connect the dots here that everyone glimpsed, uh, his unfitness for office, uh, or that he, he just was not doing the job.

(inaudible).

Trump was here when I asked, what's the job of the President?

He said, "To protect the people."

Well, he did everything but protect the people.

And his Presidency was defined by protecting Donald Trump.

And, uh, that now is, that peril, uh, continues.

And as we say in the book, uh, you know, maybe there's gonna be a real massive fight in the Republican party between Trump and Pence or Trump and somebody else, uh, for that Republican nomination.

So we're, and, you know, the, anyone, Gene, you know this better than anyone.

Anyone who tries to predict the outcome or where American politics is going, uh, is... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: Wasting their time.

ROBINSON: Yeah.

Yeah.

WOODWARD: Because there is no telling.

Anything can happen.

ROBINSON: Yeah, nobody knows anything, especially now.

But, you, you know, you talk about protecting the people, um, Bob, you know, the other day I was driving down Constitution Avenue and I looked over at the Washington Monument and there was nearly 700,000 little white flags that are planted all in rows, um, uh, out on the monument grounds.

Each flag symbolizes someone who died from Covid-19.

And, um, and you, you, you, you try to square that with, um, the duty, um, to, to protect the American people and, um, uh, and, uh, and it's just so tragic.

Um, a, an, another question from our audience, "Can you address the role of the Trump children and Jared Kushner, uh, doa, during, uh, those perilous final days?"

COSTA: Based on our reporting it's not, uh...

The President's children, impi, in particular Ivanka Trump, uh, were close to the President throughout his Presidency.

Ivanka Trump was an actual advisor in the White House.

Uh, her husband Jared Kushner, the President's son-in-law, a senior advisor as well.

There is a scene in the book where Ivanka Trump goes in to the oval office a few times, three times actually, on January 6th, uh, at, at the encouragement of General Keith Kellogg and others working with President Trump and tells her father to calm it down, to let it go.

She says, "Let it go."

Uh, but we're careful in our reporting to not lean into anything.

We're just telling you what we've confirmed has happened.

We're not making a conclusion about whether this even mattered to President Trump, because there's another scene in the book that's, I think as a reporter more revealing, that's Hope Hicks, his longtime advisor, a few days after the election says to him, essentially what Ivanka Trump says weeks later on January 6th, "Let it go.

Let it go.

Just let this defeat go.

Go back to Mar-a-Lago, enjoy political winter.

Run the GOP from the outside," in some kind of informal way and he brushes off hov, Hope Hicks and says, "I can never concede.

My people don't want me to quit."

And based in our reporting, the conversation was pretty similar on January 6th, with his daughter, Ivanka.

Jared Kushner working on Middle Eastern issues throughout the transition.

Uh, his children, along with others around the President, many of the President's critics called them enablers.

Uh, it's true, there, they at times seemed to be enabling his behavior, but oftentimes they're just turning away, and, and not doing too much to try to corral them.

And when you talk to sources familiar with them, it's clear many of them just feel it's an impossible task to do anything but just nod and go along with what's happening inside that White House.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

Um, I thank you Bob, and another audience question, “Do you think that Trump in his heart of hearts really believes the election was stolen from him?” (laughter) ROBINSON: Um, Bob, Bob Woodward.

WOODWARD: And it, it's a great question and I wonder how you tap into Trumps heart of hearts.

Uh... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: It, it's, uh, he wouldn't talk to us for this book.

Though last year I interviewed him for ten hours.

Uh, he was, uh, not happy with the last book, uh, Rage, about how he failed to protect the people from the coronavirus when he was given intelligence warnings and, and so forth.

So, uh, de, you know, what a, as reporters you quickly learn, you want to describe events and behavior, and what's said and what seems to be the motive, but the motive, uh, is something you never get the full clarity on, what is Trump up to?

And, uh, can, is he rational enough to know the election was not stolen?

Don't know, but he's, uh, uh, I think he's one of these people who said, believes certain things and, uh, even if there isn't evidence and talks himself into a belief, and it is easy to cross that threshold, uh, of belief to delusion.

And, I think, uh, if you gave him Sodium Pentothal, the truth serum, it, it, I, I will say it will take a lot of the drug to figure out... (laughter) WOODWARD: What he really, you know, what, what's going on here.

But see that's the, the problem and, and the peril is he's a, I got to know him very well, Bob Costa, b, in... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: 2015, 2016, was often the only one on the Trump campaign plane or wasn't even a campaign at that point.

And, uh, you can try to get the facts about what happened, but what this is all about, uh, you know, maybe, uh, Trump secretly has a psychiatrist, or maybe Trump will have a psychiatrist, uh, in the latter years of his life.

And, um, at least he will get clarity on what happened.

The point for people in our business is that we have to find some way to be as factual as possible, to not get into the, caught in the political storm and make political judgments.

And, uh, try to invite people into this wonderful opportunity to see what really happened and what really happened, uh, was a giant surprise to Bob Costa and myself.

And, uh, summary is peril remains.

ROBINSON: Peril remains.

COSTA: Uh, Gene real quick, uh... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm, yeah.

COSTA: Just one little scene that is so revealing, uh, right after the election, President Trump calls up Kellyanne Conway, his longtime advisor and he says, "How do we l, how did we lose to that guy, Biden?

How, how did that happen?

How did we lose?"

So for a fleeting moment... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

COSTA: He's privately acknowledging, well he did lose, and he lost to Biden.

But in that same period he's getting call after call from Giuliani and people on the right, uh, in Congress and outside saying, "It was stolen.

It was stolen."

And in that same period as he's talking to Conway and others saying, "Gosh, I can't believe I lost, uh, how did we lose to that guy?"

He starts to the, then say, "Well maybe it was stolen.

It was stolen," and that begins the drumbeat that fuels this entire transition period.

ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

Fascinating.

Um, uh, let's see another question.

Um, uh, basically was the Cabinet, uh, ever close to considering, uh, the 25th Amendment or, or some way of, uh, of, of relieving, um, President Trump of his powers?

WOODWARD: Uh, no, because the 25th Amendment that the standard is, uh, is the President disabled?

And, uh, Pence would, as Vice President would be the one who would have to lead the charge on this, and, uh, he steadfastly, uh, refused to do it.

But I think coming out of this experience and hopefully, uh, there can be lessons learned.

One of them is, i, is the 25th Amendment sufficient for dealing with a problem like Donald Trump?

And the second issue is, which, uh, some experts and knowledgeable people about nuclear weapons have said, "Do we have a system that really makes sense?

Do we have control of nuclear weapons?

Do, could a President like Trump," and, um, I don't think he was gonna start a nuclear war... ROBINSON: Mm-hmm.

WOODWARD: But if we got into some sort of military action with the Chinese, you could see China or some country using the small tactical nuclear weapon and all of a sudden we'd be on this, uh, perilous escalation ladder that would take us to Armageddon.

So, it was, it was a really dangerous period and the mechanisms of the 25th Amendment, the mechanisms and procedures for control of nuclear weapons, there's a lot of work and a lot of examination that needs to be done in our view from our reporting.

ROBINSON: Um, just one, uh, one last question.

Uh, and it's about President Biden.

Um, uh, a, a, um, um, an audience member has asked and, and you, you hear, um, uh, on, um, some news channel, um, about the, the question of whether he's being protected by his handlers from tough questions, whether he's being somehow, um, um, uh, uh, cosseted away from, um, uh, from, from, you know, the, the hurly-burly of the, of the Presidency, um, uh, and protected uh, overprotected, uh, in that way.

Um, did you get any sense of that, uh, in your reporting on the Biden sections of the book?

COSTA: Our reporting shows that there are some around President Biden, uh, who we, they call it the wall, uh, this effect, they're trying to keep him from, from interviews.

He did not, uh, choose to participate in this book.

Uh, he did not sit for an interview.

We note that in the back of the book.

But what, what's interesting in our reporting about that question is President Biden's closest friends and advisors know he has a career of being candid at times, being a little sharp, and so... On the right, sometimes you see coverage of this aspect of the book and the wall around Biden is some kind of way of cocooning him from tough questions.

But when you look at the book and the context of what we write it, there's a whole section of President Biden really seeming in the eyes of his advisors and friends a little prickly at times.

Uh, too sharp with the tongue, and the, there's a hope to keep this politician, uh, who has so much political, uh, popularity now in his own party, who has the power of the Presidency from meandering into a gaff moment or to a controversy.

And you saw early on, this administration powering through the $1.9 trillion rescue plan dealing with the virus.

And you saw a politician in Biden, President Biden, who largely averted controversies early on and gaff type moments.

Uh, eventually there have been a couple, but they've been scattered and few, uh, as the reporting’s shows.

And, and in part, that's his own discipline.

And it's not so much a wall around him, but Biden himself at a different time in his life and his career adjusting his own political approach.

ROBINSON: Okay.

I'm taking one final question, uh, before I invite our host Brad Graham to come on with final words.

The question is, “How was all of this amazing information obtained?” And I can answer that question.

It's, it, it was obtained by reporting, uh, old-fashioned, shoe-leather reporting that, um, Bob Woodward has done for all, for his whole career, and Bob Costa has done for his whole career.

Um, and, uh, and, and so that's where it came from.

This was, um, this was, this was not an exercise in thumb sucking.

Uh, it is, uh, it is reporting and, um, and I might add it is, uh, it is fabulous eye opening, historic reporting.

Um, uh, and I, and it was a privilege to, um, to share this hour with you.

Um, but Bob Woodward and you Bob Costa, congratulations on the book.

Uh, and I hope everybody reads it.

Brad Graham, back to you.

COSTA: Thanks.

GRAHAM: Great moderating Gene and, and Bob Woodward and Bob Costa really a, an epic book, uh, about, about epic times.

And, and, uh, you do end it on such an ominous note, you know, we won't be able to say we weren't warned if the peril does later somehow come back and brings us down.

Um, everyone watching, thanks for tuning in.

From all of us here at Politics and Prose, stay well and well read.

WOMAN: Books by tonight’s authors are available at Politics and Pros bookstore locations or online at politics-prose.com.