>> Gene: OIL AND GAS BRINGS IN TONS OF MONEY TO NEW MEXICO,  AS YOU KNOW.

A CONTINUED BOOM IN THE  PERMIAN BASIN IS CERTAINLY REFLECTED IN THE STATE BUDGET.

BUT, MANY COMPANIES, INCLUDING THOSE FROM OUT OF STATE, ARE  POLLUTING BEYOND EVEN WHAT REGULATIONS ALLOW WITH FEW  REPERCUSSIONS.

OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA  PASKUS TALKS WITH JERRY REDFERN, A REPORTER WITH  CAPITAL AND MAIN ABOUT THE ROLE HIS REPORTING PLAYED IN  RECENT FINES LEVIED AGAINST TWO TEXAS COMPANIES AND THE  TWO ALSO TALK ABOUT NEW MEXICO'S OUTSIZED ROLE IN THE  PLANETS WARMING CLIMATE.

>> Laura: WELCOME JERRY  REDFERN.

>> Redfern: THANK YOU LAURA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Laura: SO, REGULATORS  RECENTLY FINED MATADOR RESOURCES, AN OIL COMPANY OUT  OF DALLAS AND CHISHOLM ENERGY OUT OF FORT WORTH AND THE NEW  MEXICO ENVIRONMENT SECRETARY SAYS THE FINES CAME OUT OF  YOUR REPORTING.

CAN YOU WALK ME THROUGH WHAT  WAS HAPPENING AND WHAT MIGHT CHANGE?

>> Redfern: YEAH.

SO, BACK IN 2019 AND 2020, THE  EPA CAME INTO NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS AS WELL AND DID A SERIES  OF OVERFLIGHT PROGRAMS WHERE THEY HAD A HELICOPTER WITH A  SPECIAL CAMERA ATTACHED THAT COULD SEE GASES THAT COME OUT  OF OIL AND GAS OPERATIONS ESSENTIALLY.

THINGS THAT ARE NORMALLY -- YOU CAN'T SEE WITH THE NAKED  EYE.

SO THEY FLEW AROUND AND FOUND  ALL THESE DIFFERENT SITES FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT COMPANIES  THAT WERE POLLUTING AND KIND OF, I THINK, A NUMBER OF  PEOPLE KNEW THIS WAS HAPPENING BUT THERE WASN'T ANY  PARTICULAR REPORTING ON IT.

SO I DUG AROUND INTO IT A  LITTLE BIT AND SAW THAT THE EPA HAD BEEN CLOSING THESE  CASES OUT, ESSENTIALLY A SLAP ON THE WRIST TELLING MOST OF  THESE COMPANIES, ESSENTIALLY DON'T DO THAT AGAIN.

COMPANIES SAYING, OKAY, YOU GOT US, WE WON'T DO THAT  AGAIN.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, ISN'T A  PARTICULARLY EFFECTIVE WAY TO KEEP COMPANIES FROM DOING  THINGS.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF SMALL  FINES THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THAT BUT REALLY THEY WERE  GOING THROUGH ALL THIS EFFORT TO FIND OIL AND GAS POLLUTERS  AND NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

SO I WROTE ABOUT THAT AND I DON'T THINK THAT NEW MEXICO  ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT SECRETARY JAMES KENNEY REALLY  KNEW THAT THESE COMPANIES WERE ESSENTIALLY BEING LET OFF BY  THE EPA.

HE WAS SHOCKED AND UNHAPPY  ABOUT IT.

MARTIN HEINRICH'S OFFICE ALSO  SAW THE REPORTING AND GOT IN TOUCH WITH THE EPA AND ASKED  THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND SINCE THEN STARTING A  COUPLE WEEKS AGO, EPA AND NMED STARTED ANNOUNCING THE FIRST  COUPLE OF WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE SEVERAL SETTLEMENTS WITH  THESE COMPANIES WITH PUNISHING FINES INVOLVED IN THAT.

SO, MATADOR WAS FINED 1.2 MILLION ROUGHLY SPEAKING  AND WILL PAY MILLIONS MORE UPGRADES TO THEIR FACILITIES  IN THE PERMIAN BASIN AND CHISHOLM ENERGY HAS BEEN FINED  ABOUT $440,000 BUT THEN ALSO HAS TO DO MILLIONS OF DOLLARS  WORTH OF UPGRADES TO THEIR FACILITIES AS WELL.

AND THEN SECRETARY KENNEY ALSO SAID THERE IS MANY MORE OF  THESE THAT ARE COMING ALONG.

IT IS JUST THEY ARE TAKING A  LONG TIME TO SORT OF GET PROSECUTED AND GET THEM ALL  WORKED OUT.

>> Laura: I THINK YOU HAVE  SOME OF THESE VIDEOS.

MAYBE YOU COULD POP ONE UP ON  YOUR SCREEN FOR US WHILE WE TALK ABOUT EMISSIONS FROM  THESE OIL WELLS AND FACILITIES.

LIKE WHAT IS COMING OUT?

WE KNOW GREEN HOUSE GAS  EMISSIONS CONTRIBUTE TO CLIMATE CHANGE BUT WHAT ARE  SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THESE  FACILITIES?

>> Redfern: WELL, YOU KNOW, IT  IS ACTUALLY A FUNKY COCKTAIL OF STUFF THAT COMES OUT, SO,  THE MAIN COMPONENT IS CALLED METHANE, WHICH IS THE MAIN  COMPONENT OF NATURAL GAS.

I AM SHOWING YOU A VIDEO OF  ONE OF THESE MATADOR FACILITIES THAT CAUGHT EPA'S  EYE INITIALLY.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE IS WE  ARE SEEING ESSENTIALLY AN INFRARED SCALE OF GASES THAT  ARE COMING OUT OF A SET OF TANKS.

AND THE BLACK CLOUDS THAT YOU SEE ARE THE METHANE AND  NATURAL GAS AND VARIOUS OTHER SORT OF, AS I CALL THEM,  FELLOW TRAVELER CHEMICALS THAT COME ALONG WITH THE NATURAL  GAS.

AND THEY ARE CALLED VOLATILE  ORGANIC COMPOUNDS AND WHAT THEY TEND TO DO IN THE AIR,  THEY ARE, BY THEMSELVES, PRETTY POISONOUS, ACTUALLY,  BUT WHAT THEY ALSO DO IS BOND WITH OTHER MOLECULES IN THE  AIR TO CREATE OZONE AND OZONE IS A PARTICULARLY HARMFUL AIR  POLLUTANT.

IT IS REALLY HARMFUL FOR KIDS  LUNGS, GROWING LUNGS AND ALSO FOR THE ELDERLY.

AND LEADS TO BREATHING PROBLEMS AND HEALTH -- LUNG  RELATED HEALTH EFFECTS DOWN THE LINE.

AND THIS IS POURING OUT OF STUFF ALL OVER THE PERMIAN  BASIN.

>> Laura: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE  PERMIAN, IN GENERAL.

CAN YOU CHARACTERIZE FOR THOSE  OF US WHO MAYBE HAVEN'T BEEN DOWN THERE RECENTLY, WHAT IS  HAPPENING DOWN THERE?

>> Redfern: IT IS KIND OF  FUNKY.

THE PERMIAN IS LIKE THIS  REALLY BIG SEMI-ARID SEMI-DESERT AREA, NOT A LOT OF  PEOPLE.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF TREES.

NOT A LOUD OF CLOUDS.

NOT A LOT OF HILLS BUT ROLLS A  LITTLE BIT AND WHEN YOU DRIVE ACROSS IT, ALL YOU ARE REALLY  SEEING ARE THESE OIL WELLS, GAS WELLS AND THE PROCESSING  FACILITIES THAT GO ALONG WITH THEM EVERY MILE SO LIKE POP,  POP, POP, AS YOU DRIVE DOWN THE VARIOUS ROADS.

AND THEN IT IS ALSO INTERSPERSED WITH THIS GRID OF  DIRT ROADS THAT LEAD ALL OVER THE PLACE, AND DOWN ALL THOSE  DIRT ROADS IT IS THE SAME SORT OF THING, JUST POP, POP, POP,  OIL WELL, GAS WELL, PROCESSING FACILITY.

ABOUT THE ONLY TRAFFIC YOU SEE OUT THERE IN THIS WHOLE AREA  THAT USED TO BE RANCH LAND, THE ONLY TRAFFIC YOU SEE OUT  THERE NOW ARE BIG TRUCKS MOVING OIL DRILLING EQUIPMENT  AROUND, BIG TRUCKS HAULING PRODUCED WATER FROM THESE  WELLS AROUND.

AND THEN THE PICKUP TRUCKS  WITH THE GUYS WHO WORK ON THESE WELLS GOING FROM WELL TO  WELL, TO WELL, TO SET THEM UP, TAKE THEM DOWN, DO THE  MONITORING WORK.

SO IT HAS TURNED THIS RATHER  LARGE STRETCH OF -- THIS LARGER CORNER OF NEW MEXICO --  IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO DRIVE ACROSS.

IT IS NOT AN INCONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF LAND.

AND TURNED IT FROM RANGE LAND INTO INDUSTRIAL ZONE, AN  INDUSTRIAL WORK ZONE.

>> Laura: YEAH.

SO LOTS AND LOTS OF OIL AND GAS DEVELOPMENT DOWN THERE.

I HAVE HEARD THE PERMIAN CALLED A CLIMATE BOMB FOR THE  AMOUNT OF DRILLING THAT IS GOING ON AND ALL THAT OIL IS  EXPORTED, USED HERE, GOES OUT TO CREATE MORE GREENHOUSE GAS  EMISSIONS.

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW NEW  MEXICO IS CONTRIBUTING TO THE GLOBAL PROBLEM OF CLIMATE  CHANGE?

>> Redfern: IT IS REALLY AN  OUTSIZED CONTRIBUTION CONSIDERING THE SIZE OF THE  POPULATION IN THE STATE, THE STATE'S POPULATION, COMPARED  TO AMOUNT OF DEVELOPMENT THAT GOES ON HERE.

YOU BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF A CLIMATE BOMB GOING OFF HERE.

AND I THINK THAT IS A REALLY INTERESTING PHRASE TO USE THAT  I KNOW A LOT OF ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS USE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN  THAT, I THINK, IN MY MIND IN THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT.

IN THE FACT THAT I SORT OF STUMBLED ACROSS AND SHOULD  HAVE FIGURED OUT A LONG TIME AGO IS THAT OIL PRODUCTION IN  NEW MEXICO HAS GONE UP 10 FOLD SINCE 2010.

IT IS 10 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF OIL GOING OUT NOW THAN WE DID  IN 2010, AND ABOUT TWO-AND-A-HALF TIMES THE  AMOUNT OF NATURAL GAS.

IT HAS BEEN A PRETTY STEADY  RISE IN THOSE 13 YEARS.

IT HASN'T BEEN A BOMB GOING  OFF, NOT LIKE IT IS SUDDENLY ZERO BUT GOING TO 100.

IT HAS BEEN A STEADY, PROGRESSIVE CLIMB UPWARD.

AND IT IS CONTINUING TO DO THAT AS WELL.

I THINK THE IDEA OF IT BEING A CLIMATE BOMB IS THIS IDEA THAT  IF WE CONTINUE TO DO THIS DRILLING IN THE STATE WE WON'T  BE ABLE TO MITIGATE AND COPE WITH THE BIGGEST EFFECTS OF  CLIMATE CHANGE THAT ARE COMING DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Laura: I AM GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP BECAUSE  RECENTLY THE UNITED NATIONS PUT OUT ANOTHER REPORT THAT  HUMANS ARE NOT ON TRACK TO LIMIT WARMING TO 1.5 DEGREES  CELSIUS WHICH MEANS WE ARE IN FOR, AND I AM QUOTING, CLIMATE  DISASTERS WILL BECOME SO EXTREME PEOPLE CANNOT ADAPT.

HEATWAVES, FAMINES AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES WILL CLAIM  MILLIONS OF ADDITIONAL LIVES AND BASIC COMPONENTS OF THE  EARTH SYSTEM WILL BE FUNDAMENTALLY, IRREVOCABLY  ALTERED.

WE JUST FINISHED UP A  LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

WHAT DID THE NEW MEXICO  LEGISLATURE DO THIS YEAR IN TERMS OF MITIGATING, ADAPTING  TO CLIMATE CHANGE?

>> Redfern: WELL, TO PUT NOT  TOO FINE A POINT ON IT, THEY DID JUST ABOUT NOTHING.

ALL OF THE NOTABLE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD HAVE GONE INTO  SOMEWHAT FURTHER REGULATING THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY IN  THE STATE, WHICH AGAIN IS THE LARGEST GREENHOUSE GAS EMITTER  IN THE STATE, THEY ALL DIED AND THEY DIDN'T JUST DIE, THEY  DIED IN COMMITTEE BEFORE THEY GOT A CHANCE TO GET A FULL  AIRING IN FRONT OF THE LEGISLATURE AND REALLY IN  FRONT OF THE STATE.

IT WAS -- I HAVE TO ADMIT IT  WAS KIND OF SURPRISING TO ME, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON AS WELL  IS THAT NONE OF THESE LAWS THAT WERE PROPOSED, NONE OF  THESE BILLS THAT WERE PROPOSED ACTUALLY WERE DESIGNED TO STOP  OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION.

THEY WERE JUST BRINGING IN  SLIGHTLY FURTHER REGULATIONS TO VET BETTER PEOPLE WHO COULD  DO OIL AND GAS DRILLING IN THE STATE AND IT IS PRETTY WIDE  OPEN NOW TO ANYBODY DOING THAT.

IT OPENED UP THE DOOR TO CITIZEN SUITS TO BE BROUGHT  AGAINST OIL AND GAS COMPANIES THAT WEREN'T FOLLOWING STATE  LAWS BECAUSE OF SORT OF WHAT I HINTED AT EARLIER, THE STATE  DOESN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES OR I SHOULD SAY ISN'T PUTTING THE  RESOURCES TOWARD DOING ENFORCEMENT OF THE OIL AND GAS  LAWS THAT WE ALREADY HAVE ON THE BOOKS.

SO THAT LAW WOULD HAVE ALLOWED CITIZEN GROUPS TO TAKE UP  THOSE SORTS OF LAWSUITS AND THEN THERE WAS A REFORMATION  OF THE BASIC 1935 OIL AND GAS ACT THAT MUCH OF STATE'S OIL  AND GAS PRODUCTION OPERATES UNDER AT THIS POINT THAT HAS  NOT BEEN DRASTICALLY UPDATED IN YEARS.

AND IT WAS LOOKING TO ADD IN PROTECTIONS FOR HUMAN LIFE  WHICH YOU THINK IS A PRETTY DECENT IDEA, AND THEN FOR THE  NATURAL ENVIRONMENT THAT GOES ON THAT TRIES TO LIVE AROUND  THESE OIL AND GAS FACILITIES.

>> Laura: DISAPPOINTING NEWS  BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPORTING.

AS THE FINES AGAINST THE TWO COMPANIES SHOW, LIKE THE  REPORTING, LIKE THIS REALLY DOES MATTER.

SO THANK YOU.

>> Redfern: THANKS FOR HAVING  ME ON LAURA.

IT HAS BEEN GREAT.