[piano intro] - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to "Side by Side."

My guest today hails from a small town in North Carolina.

He grew up both on the Carolina coast and the mountains, as well.

He's become quite the impactful leader throughout the Tar Heel State.

Today we'll meet Peter Hans, the president of the University of North Carolina System.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Side by Side" with Nido Qubein is made possible by- - [Spokesperson] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally thanks to our teammates.

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- [Announcer] The Budd Group has been serving the southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction.

Comprehensive facility support with the Budd Group.

- [Spokesperson 3] Truist.

We're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

Truist, leaders in banking, unwavering in care.

[upbeat music] - President Hans, welcome to "Side by Side."

I have followed your career with such respect and admiration.

You have served the state of North Carolina in so many ways and in ways that have been truly impactful for the Tar Heel State.

And today, of course, we all know you're the president, the seventh president of the university system, and it's gotta be a tough job, my friend.

- Well, you honor me with those words.

Thank you.

I'm delighted to be here.

I hope you notice I've worn High Point purple today.

- God will bless you for that.

- Yes.

Also happens to be the colors of East Carolina- - East Carolina University.

- Yes, of course.

- Western Carolina University.

- Yes.

- So, the trifecta- - Yes.

- With the tie today.

- You're being a good man today, yes.

- Well, I'm always honored to be with you.

You've been among many leaders that I have watched and learned from in all your success at High Point and in the private sector, as well, so an honor to be with you today.

- [Nido] Well, thank you, sir.

- Well, it is a big job.

The University of North Carolina is a sprawling enterprise that touches the life of every North Carolinian.

We have 16 universities, the nation's finest residential high school in the School of Science and Math, both now in Durham and Morganton.

We have a healthcare system, UNC Health, with 19 hospitals, as well as ECU Health with seven.

The State Education Assistance Authority, which is the body that provides financial aid to all college students, and now the Opportunity scholarships in the state.

So, trying to say grace over all of that can be a challenge, but it's a joyful privilege at the same time.

- So, the healthcare system is also part of the university system?

- [Peter] Yes, yes, sir.

- And does that come under your- - [Peter] Yes.

- Your administrative leadership?

- Dr. Wesley Burks is our chancellor, if you will- - [Nido] Yes.

- For the UNC Health system.

And Dr. Mike Waldrum of ECU Health.

- Yes, now, President Hans, you have a lot of power.

I mean, if I- - It doesn't feel like it all the time.

- If I understand how the system works, when a university loses its chancellor, somehow, some way, that board comes up with some names.

But ultimately, you are the man who makes that decision as to who the chancellor will be in that institution.

- So, the process plays out like this.

I appoint a search committee composed of the university's trustees, representatives of the faculty, staff, students, and the Board of Governors from the system.

We interview candidates, settle on three names that are forwarded to me, and then I recommend a finalist to the Board of Governors for approval.

So, I play a key role in that decision, but I'm not the only decision maker in the process.

- Has the Board of Governors ever said no to your recommendation?

- Well, not yet, but don't get any ideas.

- So you're a man with lot of power then.

You do have a lot of power.

- Well, a lot of responsibility.

- Yeah, a lot of responsibility.

- Absolutely.

- For some reason, the tenure of a, you know, university chancellor has gotten shorter.

- [Peter] That's right.

That's right.

- Why is that?

And that's true in private institutions, as well.

- Well, you know firsthand, these are demanding roles.

I believe the average tenure in national higher education is now between five and seven.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Years.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Happily, we've had many exceptions to that in the UNC System, Harold Martin at A&T State University in nearby Greensboro.

- [Nido] Yes.

- Led that institution for nearly 15 years.

And he was chancellor at Winston-Salem State before that and chief academic officer of the system.

Randy Woodson at NC State will retire next year after 15 very successful years at the helm there.

So, we have a number of exceptions.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And there's certainly an advantage of continuity and stability in leadership, allows those leaders such as yourself to see their vision through for that institution.

And yet some change is good at various places, as well.

- Leading a public institution is difficult.

You have many, many constituencies for sure, but- - [Peter] Yes.

- But you also have some political ramifications that some of the citizens, you know, don't know all the ins and outs of it.

And it's easy for a chancellor to enter a new zone as a leader of an institution and have some people not like it, you know?

And that makes it pretty tough for a leader who's trying to do something important.

And immediately they have somebody or groups of people who publicly, you know, proclaim that this isn't their person.

- [Peter] So true.

- What is it that you do to guide these chancellors?

You are very experienced.

You ran the community college system and before that you did many other things.

So this is not a new zone for you.

You're familiar with education, especially higher education and what it takes for a leader to survive and thrive in globally competitive times as we all experience.

What are some of those traits that you look for?

I'm sure for every institution, perhaps, there's some nuances that you look at.

But what are the general traits that you look at that in your experience, have made a successful chancellor of a public institution?

- Well, you alluded to one very important trait, which is a certain amount of savvy in dealing with both internal and external stakeholders, because we do receive a lot of input.

And that's often helpful, a sign of devotion.

We're a public institution.

We expect public scrutiny.

I would be more concerned if people weren't offering input.

It would suggest to me that they don't care.

And yet I have daily confirmation they care very deeply.

- That's called complaints.

- Well, some.

Some, some, some, some.

We'll call it feedback for the- - Feedback, okay.

- The purposes of our conversation.

But for chancellors to have a certain amount of savvy to how they deal with those situations, but also internally, when you think about supporting the faculty, the staff, engaging with students, alumni.

Probably, if I had to pick just one trait, it would be a certain amount of personal savvy in dealing with the many people who are gonna care about your university.

- And so, that person has to be what?

A good communicator.

- [Peter] Absolutely.

- A great listener.

- [Peter] Absolutely.

- You know, someone who can build consensus- - [Peter] Absolutely.

- Among the different constituencies.

- Absolutely, and sometimes, you won't be able to achieve consensus, but try to be objective and transparent about the decisions you make and so that when we don't have consensus, at least we can move forward.

- I understand, of course, that leadership is leadership is leadership.

It doesn't matter where you are.

The skills that you have, the experiences you have are transferable in many different environments.

You've proven that, you know.

You led the community college system, which is, is it 55?

- [Peter] 58.

- 58 colleges, and now you're leading the UNC University System.

What are the differences between those two?

- So they're both doing the Lord's work, of course.

And structurally though, the community college system is quite decentralized.

That's a defining feature given that there are 58 spread across the state, and most of those have satellite centers, as well.

They're located within a half hour drive of 95% of North Carolina's population.

So, it's designed to be a partnership with local government and state government.

The university system is more centralized.

It's larger in terms of its budget and reach into not only higher education, but healthcare and other realms of daily North Carolina life.

And you may appreciate this.

It is in some ways more difficult to be president of the university because you come under enormous scrutiny that isn't always provided to the community colleges.

I think community colleges in some ways are undervalued for the great work that they do.

- And they're focused on a very specific- - [Peter] They are.

They are.

- Yes.

- But the advantage of leading the universities is at least there is some alignment between, if I'm responsible for it, I'd like the authority, a corresponding authority, to actually affect the outcome.

- [Nido] Yes.

- And that was a frustration at the community colleges that it was so decentralized, it's a little bit difficult to make- - Frustration For you as the head?

- Yes, and I believe others- - [Nido] Yes.

- As well.

But wonderful things going on at the community colleges.

- [Nido] We need them.

- Indeed, we do, and I'm quite the ongoing evangelist for their work and support.

- The community college system work closely with the university system.

I'm thinking about students transferring after the second year to a- - [Peter] Yes.

- To a public institution in North Carolina.

- Yes, absolutely, and for me to have that perspective as a member of the State Board of Community Colleges and then president of the community colleges, that there were unintentional roadblocks for students to easily transfer their credits to the university system.

And so, this has been a long time issue for me to ease the transfer of those credits.

We need to make it possible for a seamless transfer of courses that were taken at the community colleges to the university.

And as such, we developed a common course catalog with the faculty, with their great help, that has eased that process considerably, streamlined it.

And I'm very proud of that.

- Is that process a point of focus for accreditation or is it merely internal?

- Not related to accreditation, but to help community college students understand more clearly what courses they may take that will transfer- - [Nido] I see.

- To a general education.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- Or within their particular major.

And I don't think we had a process that was as streamlined as it should be, because higher education sometimes becomes a maze of bureaucracy.

And my mantra is simplify, simplify, simplify.

Whether it's our operations or our academics or how we prepare students for their lives beyond college.

- President Hans, tell me if I'm wrong on this.

You're a first generation graduate?

- Yes, sir.

- [Nido] In your family?

- I am.

- And you went- - Yes.

- [Nido] You went Chapel Hill undergrad.

- Yes.

- [Nido] And then Harvard for a master's.

- Yes.

- And was it in education?

What was the- - Actually in international relations, which in some ways, does prepare you to deal with the- - [Nido] Especially- - The many stakeholders we have.

- We have R1 universities, large research universities.

- We do.

We do at Chapel Hill and NC State.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- Soon to be joined by UNC Charlotte, A&T and ECU because of the changes in the Carnegie classifications.

- [Nido] I see.

- For universities, so- - Yes, give us some stats, like, how many students are enrolled in, we'll say the 16 institutions, the- - [Peter] Right.

- Institutions of higher education?

- Roughly a quarter million full-time students, full-time equivalent students.

- And about 80% of those are from North Carolina?

- Roughly.

- Why do we have that policy about, I mean, I think I understand what it is, but- - [Peter] Sure.

- It holds back some schools, does it not?

- Yeah, so you're referring to the Board of Governors' policy, which has traditionally limited our 16 institutions to 18% of their first year students being from outta state.

And it was across the board.

It was a one size fit all approach.

We have actually changed that.

I suggested to the Board of Governors, and they approved changes for 10 of our institutions.

- Elizabeth City.

- Yes.

So Elizabeth City, right in the Tidewater region on the Virginia border now allows up to 50%.

And it varies all the way down to five schools remaining at 18%, and that's Chapel Hill, NC State, Wilmington, Charlotte, and App State.

Those are the schools within our system that have the most enrollment demand, are the most selective.

And as such, we want the people of North Carolina who paid for this great university system- - [Nido] Absolutely.

- To have a chance to send their sons and daughters.

- [Nido] Yes.

- To those schools.

- But are you saying that someone can transfer from out of state to one of those universities in the second year without limitation, without ceiling?

- Yes.

It's on first year.

- How would I determine how many people graduate from these 16 universities?

Of course, some have higher graduation.

- Well, it does.

It does.

I hate to ever average our 16 institutions- - [Nido] It doesn't tell the story.

- Because it doesn't.

We have, as you mentioned before, Chapel Hill and State at a highly, highly selective level.

We have access institutions, including five historically Black colleges and universities, and a traditionally Native American serving institution in UNC Pembroke, an arts conservatory in the UNC School of the Arts.

This is a very diverse group within this 16 universities, and I hate to average anything.

- Yes.

- Basically because they- - But generally- - So extraordinary.

- The best graduation rate would be what?

- I think at Chapel Hill, they're 95%- - [Nido] Which is amazing.

- [Peter] It's very high.

- It's an amazing- - [Peter] It's very high.

- Statistic to say the least.

And how are you addressing the issue of affordability?

I happen to know you are addressing it, but how are you addressing that?

That's gonna be a complicated matter.

- So, a point of pride for us is the UNC System's affordability, because so much of the questioning nationally is about the cost of higher education and student loan debt.

We've actually driven down student loan debt quite a bit because we've been able to keep tuition, in-state tuition, flat for nine years in a row in North Carolina, which no other state in the country can make that claim.

We actually have four institutions, thanks to the taxpayers and their elected representatives, four institutions that charge $500 a semester tuition, program called NC Promise.

- Like Western Carolina.

- [Peter] That's right.

- Pembroke and, yes.

- That's right.

And Elizabeth City and Fayetteville State.

And so affordability is a hallmark of ours.

It's actually enshrined in the North Carolina Constitution.

So, we have a constitutional commitment to maintain low tuition, but also a moral obligation, as well, so that first generation families have that opportunity.

- Have an opportunity, yes.

- To go to college and afford it.

- Yeah.

- Without taking on crushing debt.

- What worries you about higher education, the terrain thereof as you look out in the future?

We know that culture on our college campus is of utmost importance.

We've seen all kinds of disruptions in that regard across the country, maybe not so much in North Carolina, but in other places.

Affordability is a big issue.

This whole motion about you don't need to go to college.

- [Peter] Right.

- Federal government is saying you don't have to have a college degree to have this job or that job.

Amazon, El Al coming up with their own little university, you know, academic approaches and so on.

What is it that Peter Hans thinks about when you look up 10 years from now, generally speaking in higher education?

What worries you and what are some of the things that we could be doing today to ensure a greater success?

I say that with the understanding that something like 500 private institutions closed in the last- - Right.

- Decade, something like a hundred plus just since COVID.

And that story seems to be going on and on.

I realize it's a different animal.

But on the other hand, it's one country.

It's all the people we care about.

- I believe all these things are intertwined and connected, the people questioning the value of higher education.

Look, in some cases, I think the skeptics are right to poke at the cost and the perception of cost- - [Nido] And the value for that matter.

- And the value.

- [Nido] Yes.

- So it's very important for higher education to demonstrate its value proposition.

You've done that exceptionally well with the life skills that you develop for your students.

We've tried to do so by certainly keeping the cost low, by demonstrating what we call the return on investment of degrees at UNC System institutions to actually show what that leads to in careers afterwards.

But realizing at the same time, of course, our students are not just potential workers.

They're thinkers and citizens and hopefully will leave as very thoughtful human beings.

So, we're trying to address these things, as well, the perception that is related to higher education veering from its core mission into various political causes.

And we've made a very intentional strategy of trying to remove us from that sphere.

The university is designed to host debates, hopefully well-informed debates on various issues.

- And civil debates.

- That's right, and civil debates, not to settle those debates with statements and various political positions.

We belong to all the people of North Carolina, not one group or one faction or one party.

- Exactly right.

You certainly know the state of North Carolina.

I mean, you were born on the ocean side in Southport, Wilmington area there, and yet you lived in, is it Horse Shoe?

- Horse Shoe is a little crossroads between Hendersonville and Brevard named after a bend in the French Broad River.

So, many of my years were spent growing up in the mountains, and it's been extraordinarily difficult to see the devastation of Hurricane Helene.

I was just up there a few days ago visiting our campuses to see how we can support them in this very difficult time.

- It's very difficult indeed.

Well, which do you like more?

The ocean or the mountains?

- Oh, that's like asking if I prefer eastern or western barbecue.

You know, unfortunately- - I was trying to trip you there, but you're a diplomat.

- Well, being very sincere when I tell you I love it all.

- Yes.

- I love this state.

- Yes.

- From one end to the other.

- We're blessed, aren't we?

- We are blessed.

- Yes.

We have an incredible- - Very deeply blessed.

- Incredible place.

As you look towards the future, what are the two or three things that you really hope to accomplish in your tenure?

- As I've mentioned, I wanna keep the cost of our education- - [Nido] Affordability, yes.

- Affordable.

That's a- - How do you do that and yet you maintain a competitive pay scale- - [Peter] Right.

- For faculty and staff?

- Well, we're certainly trying to drive efficiencies in our business operations so that we free up funds to pay our really hardworking faculty and staff and retain that talent.

That's a ongoing challenge, but we're very fortunate.

The people of North Carolina have invested in the university on a bipartisan basis for many, many, many years.

And retaining a level of public trust that keeps that possible is a high priority for me.

So certainly affordability, quality.

We want each of our institutions to thrive.

The level of academic programs that they're able to offer, the level of community engagement, public service that they're able to provide, and of course, the teaching, the teaching of our students.

So, certainly affordability, quality and access.

Very important to me as a first generation- - Indeed.

- College graduate that we have access for all of the people of North Carolina, even no matter what their age may be.

We're increasingly working with North Carolinians that are non-traditional college students, which today is anybody over the age of 25 all the way up to your 60s to provide them the opportunity to access the University of North Carolina in a way that either fulfills their knowledge, interests, or provides them with a new avenue in their career path.

- You certainly have been very cooperative and collaborative with the private- - [Peter] Amen.

- Sector.

- [Peter] It's wonderful- - In terms of- - [Peter] To have the partners in the- - You know- - [Peter] Private sector.

- The 35, 36 private colleges.

You don't see conflict- - [Peter] None.

- Necessarily between the two spheres.

- None.

And a great example of collaboration, the way that High Point University is hosting the tennis teams from UNC Asheville right now- - [Nido] Yes, yes.

- While they're not able to be on campus.

- [Nido] And we're glad to have 'em.

- Thank you.

- And athletics, we won't get into athletics, but is it a troubling factor for you or not so?

- No, no.

Look, athletics are the front porch of the university, and those rivalries draw people to the university.

- Good, but you rather go to a Carolina game and cheer for them, right?

- Carolina and State and my other 14, as well.

- [Nido] And all of them?

- Yes.

- Come on now.

- Yes, yes, I love 'em all.

- I'm gonna be watching you on that one.

I wanna know what's really in your heart.

That's what I gotta find out.

Well, President Hans, is such a pleasure to have here you today.

- [Peter] Thank you.

- And good luck in all that you do, and thank you for serving all the people of North Carolina.

- You're kind, my friend.

Thank you very much.

[bright music] [bright music continues] [bright music continues and fades] - [Announcer] Funding for "Side by Side" with Nido Qubein is made possible by- - [Spokesperson] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.

- [Announcer] The Budd Group has been serving the southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction.

Comprehensive facility support with the Budd Group.

- [Spokesperson 3] Truist.

We are here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

Truist, leaders in banking, unwavering in care.