>>> AMBASSADOR PETER GALBRAITH IS A FORMER U.S.

DIPLOMAT WHOSE WORK HAS HELPED END VIOLENCE AND REBUILD NATIONS IN WAR TORN PARTS OF THE WORLD.

HIS FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE OF IRAQ OVER SEVERAL DECADES LED TO HIS RECENT BOOK, "THE END OF IRAQ."

GALBRAITH IS MY GUEST NEXT ON "PROFILE."

>>> PETER GALBRAITH HOLDS DEGREES FROM HARVARD, OXFORD AND GEORGETOWN LAW.

HE'S HELD SENIOR POSITIONS AT THE UNITED NATIONS ANDERSON THE U.S.

SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE WHERE HE PUBLISHED MANY REPORTS ABOUT IRAQ AND UNCOVERED SADDAM HUSSEIN'S ATROCITIES INCURRED I STAN.

IN 1993, HE WAS APPOINTED THE FIRST U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO CROATIA.

HE LATER SERVED AS U.N.

AMBASSADOR IN EAST TIMOR TO HELP ESTABLISH THAT COUNTRY.

HE HAS SERVED AS A PROFESSOR AT THE NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE AND A CONSULTANT TO ABC NEWS IN IRAQ AFTER THE 2003 INVASION.

HE IS CURRENTLY THE SENIOR DIPLOMATIC FELLOW AT THE CENTER FOR ARMS CONTROL AND NONPROLIFERATION AND A CONSULTANT IN INTERNATIONAL NEGOTIATIONS.

HE HAS BEEN CONTRIBUTING TO WIDELY IN IRAQ DEBATE IN ESSAYS, OP-EDS AND HIS RECENT BOOK, "THE END OF IRAQ."

HE HAS THREE CHILDREN AND LIVES WITH HIS WIFE IN TOWNSEND, VERMONT.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

YOU WERE THE CHAIR OF THE VERMONT DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> I WAS.

>> THAT'S KIND OF COOL.

WHAT ENTICED YOU TO MOVE ON TO YOUR DIPLOMATIC CAREER?

>> PARTLY THE FACT THAT WINDHAM COLLEGE WENT BANKRUPT, SO I WAS LEFT WITHOUT A JOB.

ALSO A LIFELONG INTEREST IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND OBVIOUSLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE A DIPLOMAT, YOU END UP HAVING TO DO THAT OUT OF WASHINGTON.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, TO GO FURTHER BACK, OF COURSE, YOU WERE BROUGHT UP IN THE INTELLECTUAL CAMBRIDGE HOUSEHOLD OF YOUR FAITH, JOHN KENNETH GALBRAITH.

EVEN WHEN YOU WERE NINE YEARS OLD HE WAS IMPASSE TORE TO INDIA, HE WAS APPOINTED BY KENNEDY TO BE AMBASSADOR TO INDIA.

YOU LIVED BRIEFLY IN OTHER COUNTRIES I THINK.

WAS THAT THE PIECE THAT SPARKED THIS INTEREST IN FOREIGN RELATIONS OR WAS IT SOMETHING ELSE?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, THE EXPERIENCE OF GROWING UP AS WHAT I GUESS IS NOW CALLED THE TWEEN, 10 TO 12-YEAR-OLD, IN INDIA, TRAVELING.

I TRAVELED A LOT IN COLLEGE.

I HAD FRIENDS FROM ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD, SO I THINK THIS IS REALLY WHAT SHAPED MY EXPERIENCE, AND PERHAPS MY COLLEGE ROOMMATE, WHO WAS FROM POLAND, VISITED HIM IN POLAND IN 1971 BEHIND WHAT WAS REALLY A IRON CURTAIN AT THAT TIME.

ALTHOUGH NOT QUITE THE PICTURE THAT MANY AMERICANS HAD OF TOTALLY BLACK AND WHITE BECAUSE THE POLES WERE VERY OUTSPOKEN IN THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE COMMUNISM.

ANOTHER FRIEND ACTUALLY FROM HARVARD, WHO LATER BECAME PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN.

SO WITH HER I LIVED IN INDIA AND THEN GOT THE PERSPECTIVE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CEASE-FIRE LINE AS IT WERE.

>> RIGHT.

SHE ACTUALLY CREDITS YOU WITH SECURING HER FREEDOM AFTER, WHAT, THREE YEARS OF PRISONMENT.

TELL US THAT STORY.

I GUESS YOU WERE FRIENDS BEFORE YOU WERE PART OF THE U.S.

SENATE RELATIONS COMMITTEE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WE WERE AT HARVARD, THEN OXFORD TOGETHER.

THEN SHE WENT BACK TO PAKISTAN.

SHE ARRIVED HOME IN THE BEGINNING OF JULY OF 1977.

FIVE DAYS LATER, GENERAL HAWK OVER THREW HER FATHER, PUT HIM IN PRISON AFTER A TRUMPED UP TRIAL.

HE WAS HANGED.

THEN IT FELL TO HER TO LEAD THE STRUGGLE FOR DEMOCRACY IN PAKISTAN, WHICH OF COURSE ENDED HER UP IN PRISON.

IN 1981, WITH REAGAN IN POWER AND HAVING ANNOUNCED HUMAN RIGHTS WAS NOT AN AMERICAN PRIORITY, I THINK HE THOUGHT HE COULD KILL HER.

HE PUT HER IN A CLASS C CELL CLASS C IS WHAT COMMON CRIMINALS HAVE.

IT'S VERY BRUTAL CONDITIONS.

AND HER -- I GOT WORD ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND I WENT TO THE SENATORS ON THE COMMITTEE.

I SAID, YOU CAN'T LET THIS WOMAN DIE.

SENATOR PELL AND OTHERS RESPONDED.

WE WROTE LETTERS, WE CONDITIONED AID TO PAKISTAN ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, AND EVENTUALLY, I KEPT PUSHING AT IT, THAT WHEN ZIA CAME TO THE COMMITTEE I WAS THERE, THAT I WOULD BE ALLOWED TO VISIT HER AND I COULD CALL HER.

WELL, THEY DIDN'T KEEP THAT PROMISE AND EVENTUALLY THE PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT GOT SO EMBARRASSED THAT WHEN I WENT THERE IN JANUARY OF 1984 RATHER THAN REFUSING TO ALLOW ME TO SEE HER IN PRISON OR ALLOWING ME TO SEE HER IN PRISON, THEY PULLED HER OUT OF JAIL THE DAY I ARRIVED IN KARACHI AND PUT HER ON A PLANE TO SWITZERLAND.

>> AND YOU GOT HER OUT AND SHE BECAME PRIME MINISTER.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> MIGHT TRY AGAIN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

SHE SERVED TWO TERMS, GOT BOUNCED OUT TWICE.

BUT IN PAKISTAN, AS LONG AS YOU'RE ALIVE THERE'S HOPE IN POLITICS.

>> OKAY.

SO LET'S MOVE FURTHER FORWARD.

IN THE LATE 1980'S AND EARLY '90'S, YOU EXPOSED HUSSEIN'S CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE IRAQI KURDS.

HOW DID YOU COME TO REALIZE THE STENT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND MANY OTHER THINGS, AND CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THIS WAS GOING ON THAT LED TO AN INTERNATIONAL PROTECTION OF NORTHERN IRAQ?

>> WELL, I HAD -- PART OF MY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE INCLUDED IRAQ.

I HAD BEEN FOLLOWING THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR.

IT WASN'T OF MUCH INTEREST BECAUSE THE U.S.

WASN'T DIRECTLY INVOLVED.

WE DIDN'T HAVE GOOD RELATIONS WITH EITHER COUNTRY, BUT I SAW THIS AS SOMETHING THAT NOT ONLY WAS IT A TERRIBLE HUMANITARIAN TRAGEDY, IT WAS SORT OF LIKE WORLD WAR I EXCEPT TWICE AS LONG, TRENCH WARFARE, USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

SO I PERSUADED THE COMMITTEE THEY SHOULD SEND ME THERE.

I WENT FIRST IN '84, FOR A SECOND TIME IN '87, AND FOR VERY FREAKISH REASONS I GOT PERMISSION TO GO TO KURDISTAN.

WHEN I TRAVELED FROM BAGHDAD UP THROUGH THE ARAB TERRITORIES AND CROSSED INTO THE KURDISH TERRITORIES WITH HAYWOOD RANGIN, WE WERE BEWILDERED BECAUSE WE HAD VERY DETAILED MAPS AND PLACE THAT SHOWED ON THE MAPS SIMPLY WEREN'T THERE.

AS WE GOT DEEPER INTO KURDISTAN WE BEGAN TO REALIZE WHY, BECAUSE WE HAD COME ACROSS THESE TOWNS WHERE BULLDOZERS WERE AT WORK, PART OF THE TOWN WOULD BE DESTROYED, THE OTHER PART INTACT, BUT THE PEOPLE MOVED OUT.

FURTHER ON WE COULD SEE WHERE PEOPLE WERE BEING LOCATED INTO WHAT WERE REALLY CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

THIS WAS PART OF A CAMPAIGN THAT BEGAN IN '87, THE SAME YEAR I VISITED, THAT ULTIMATELY INVOLVED THE DESTRUCTION OF 4500 OF KURDISTAN'S 5,000 VILLAGES.

THE DESTRUCTION OF RURAL KURDISTAN.

I HAD THAT IN MIND, WROTE ABOUT IT, AND THEN THE NEXT YEAR THERE WERE REPORTS THAT FROM REFUGEES FLEEING ACROSS THE BORDER INTO TURKEY THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD USED POISON GAS.

I PUT THAT WITH WHAT I HAD SEEN THE YEAR BEFORE, WITH THE FACT THAT IRAQ HAD BEEN USING CHEMICAL WEAPONS, I WAS HOME IN VERMONT.

I DROVE DOWN TO WASHINGTON, WENT TO SEE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE, CLAIBORNE PELL, I SAID, THIS IS GENOCIDE.

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

HE AGREED.

HE SAID WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

I SAID WE CAN INTRODUCE A BILL TO IMPOSE SANCTIONS ON IRAQ AND CUT OFF U.S.

AID TO IRAQ.

HE SAID, WELL, DO IT QUICKLY BECAUSE THE SENATE SESSION IS GOING TO END SOON.

I DRAFTED THE BILL IN AN HOUR.

WE GOT JESSE HELMS, THE RANKING REPUBLICAN, TO CO-SPONSOR, AL GORE WAS ANOTHER SPONSZOR, AND SO WAS ROBERT C. BYRD, THE MAJORITY LEADER.

I GOT THE SENATE TO INVOKE A VERY RARE PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE.

WE GOT THE BILL PAST THE SENATE IN A DAY UNANIMOUSLY.

>> REMARKABLE.

>> CUT OFF TRADE WITH IRAQ.

IT WAS CALLED PREVENTION OF GENOCIDE ACT OF 1988.

IT PRODUCED THE LARGEST ANTI-AMERICAN DEMONSTRATION IN IRAQ SINCE 1967 ARAB ISRAELI WAR.

IRAQ ALSO STOPPED USING CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON THE KURDS.

>> WELL, THAT WAS -- IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE KURDS -- MAYBE NOT THE BEGINNING, BUT THEM HAVING THEIR OWN VERY AUTONOMOU -- >> NOT THEN, NO.

THE GENOCIDE CAMPAIGN -- SIMPLY STOPPED THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

INCIDENTALLY, THE BILL DIDN'T BECOME LAW BECAUSE AT THE TIME IRAQ WAS GASSING ITS OWN PEOPLE, THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION OPPOSED SANCTIONS.

THE PERSON WHO COORDINATED IT WAS COLIN POWELL.

INTERESTINGLY.

THE NEXT YEAR, INCIDENTALLY, THE FIRST BUSH ADMINISTRATION DOUBLED U.S.

AID TO IRAQ.

WHO WAS PART OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL THEN BUT DICK CHENEY, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

NO, THE KURDISH OPPOSITION TO SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS WIPED OUT.

THE POPULATION WAS RELOCATED INTO THESE CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 180,000 PEOPLE KILLED.

THEN CAME THE FIRST GULF WAR AND AFTER THE GULF WAR YOU HAD THE UPRISING BECAUSE THROUGH THIS I HAD GOTTEN TO KNOW THE KURDISH LEADERS, SO TALIBANI, NOW PRESIDENT OF IRAQ, INVITED ME TO COME TO KURDISTAN IN ANTICIPATION OF THE UPRISING, AND WHEN IT TOOK PLACE I WENT INTO KURDISTAN WITH HIM.

AS IT HAPPENED, I WAS THERE WHETHER THE IRAQIS COUNTER ATTACKED.

SO WITH ALL THE OTHER KURDS WE FLED TO THE MOUNTAINS.

FORTUNATELY, I DIDN'T HAVE TO WALK BECAUSE I WAS WITH TALIBANI AND WE HAD GUARDS AND VEHICLES, BUT IT WAS THE MOST AMAZING SCENE.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FLEEING FOR THEIR LIVES.

>> A CLOSE CALL FOR YOU.

>> WELL, IT WAS, GETTING OUT PARTICULARLY BECAUSE I HAD TO GO THROUGH AN IRAQI BORDER BARRAGE.

I THEN HAD HOME VIDEO OF ALL THIS.

IT LED THE ABC EVENING NEWS ON APRIL 1 AND HELPED RAISED ALARM ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THE KURDS.

ABOUT A WEEK LATER YOU SAW THEM ON THE MOUNTAIN SIDES DYING ON THE TURKISH SIDE.

THAT THEN HELPED CONTRIBUTE TO THE DECISION TO INTERVENE, CREATE A SAFE AREA.

THAT BECAME THE NUCLEUS OF WHAT IS DEFACT TO INDEPENDENT $URDISTAN.

>> WE HAVE SO MUCH GROUND TO COVER, I'M GOING TO MOVE ON.

BILL CLINTON ASKED YOU TO BE AMBASSADOR OF THE NEWLY CREATED CROATIA DURING THE CRITICAL YEARS OF WAR AND RECONCILIATION.

YOU NEGOTIATED AN AGREEMENT TO END THE WAR AND AID TO PARTS OF BOSNIA.

I HEARD A STORY OF DIPLOMATIC GENIUS CREDITED TO YOU.

LICENSE PLATES.

TELL ME THAT STORY.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THE STORY IS NOT MINE, BUT LICENSE PLATES WERE A HUGE ISSUE IN BOSNIA.

SO THE QUESTION -- WHAT YOU HAD ON -- >> DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

>> WHAT YOU HAD ON THE PLATES WOULD TELL WHETHER YOU WERE A CROAT OR MUSLIM WHO USED A LATIN SCRIPT OR SERB WHICH IS CYRILLIC.

BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN LETTERS THAT ARE IN COMMON WITH THE TWO ALPHA BETS, SO WE SIMPLY USED THOSE LETTERS SO ALL THE LICENSES WERE LETTERS THAT ARE IN COMMON BETWEEN LATIN AND CYRILLIC.

THERE ARE ABOUT EIGHT LETTERS.

>> BRILLIANT.

SEEMS BRILLIANT TO ME.

MOVING ON AGAIN, SO YOU'VE WORKED IN THIS VERY DIFFICULT PART OF THE WORLD.

SO THEN IN 2000 YOU WERE ASKED BY THE UNITED NATIONS WITH SEVERAL MAJOR ROLES IN DESIGNING AND IMPLEMENTATION OF THE TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENT IN EAST TIMOR AND THE DESIGN PROCESS OF THEIR PERMANENT CONSTITUTION.

HOW WAS WORKING FOR THE U.N.

DIFFERENT FROM WORKING WITH THE UNITED STATES?

OR WERE YOU ASIDE TO THE U.N.

THROUGH THE UNITED STATES CHANNELS?

>> I WAS SECONDED TO THE UNITED NATIONS SO I REMAINED A U.S.

PUBLIC SERVANT, ALTHOUGH MY SOLE RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

PEOPLE HAVE THE IMPRESSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS AS BEING A VERY HIGH- -- HIDE-BOUND BUREAUCRATIC INSTITUTION, WHICH IN SOME WAYS IT IS, BUT IN THIS CASE IT WAS ACTUALLY THE GOVERNMENT OF A COUNTRY.

IT WAS THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE RESPONSIBILITIES THE UNITED NATIONS HAS EVER HAD.

WE WERE THE EXECUTIVE, JUDICIAL AND LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY FOR EAST TIMOR.

ONE OF THE THINGS I DID WAS SINCE I WAS IN CHARGE OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS WAS TO IN CONSULTATION WITH THE EAST TIMOR'S CREATE AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT WHICH HAD FOUR EAST TIMOR MINISTERS, FOUR INTERNATIONAL MINISTERS.

IT WAS A FASCINATING EXPERIENCE BECAUSE IT INVOLVED -- EVERY DECISION WAS AN ORIGINAL DECISION.

THE LEGISLATURE RAISE OR LOWER THE SALES TAX A HALF A CENT, BUT IN EAST TIMOR WE HAD TO CONSIDER WHETHER TO HAVE TAXES AND WHAT KIND OF TAXES TO HAVE AND WHAT LAW TO APPLY.

WOULD IT BE INDONESIAN, PORTUGESE, CREATE OUR OWN.

WE EVENTUALLY CREATED OUR OWN.

WHAT LANGUAGE?

THE LOCAL LANGUAGE?

WHAT CURRENCY?

SO EVERYTHING WAS A FUNDAMENTAL DECISION.

IT HASN'T TURNED OUT PERFECTLY, BUT IT'S TURNED OUT PRETTY WELL.

>> BEFORE WE GET INTO NATION BUILDING IN IRAQ AND WHAT'S GOING ON THERE, I'M SURE PEOPLE ARE JUST CURIOUS.

WITH THE POWERFUL WORK YOU'RE DOING AROUND THE WORLD AND YOUR FATHER JOHN KENNETH GALBRAITH STILL ENJOYING BEING ONE OF THE MOST WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED INTELLECTUALS IN THE UNITED STATES, WELL UP TO HIS DEATH JUST LAST SPRING, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE HIS SON AND WHAT WAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP LIKE?

>> OH, WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE FAMILY.

MY FATHER WAS VERY MUCH MY MENTOR.

EDUCATOR.

THE FAMILY -- THE DINNER TABLE DISCUSSIONS ALWAYS REVOLVED AROUND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, POLITICS, AT LEAST THE POLICY SIDE OF ECONOMICS, NEVER THE TECHNICAL SIDE.

THAT'S WHAT I GREW UP WITH, BUT ALSO HE VERY MUCH ENCOURAGED ME IN MY CAREER AND WAS SUPPORTIVE.

ON SOME POINTS WE DIDN'T ALWAYS AGREE, BUT HE ALSO DEFERRED TO MY VIEWS WHEN HE -- IN PLACES WHERE HE REALIZED THAT PERHAPS I HAD MORE DIRECT EXPERIENCE THAN HE DID.

BUT HE WAS OFFERING ME ADVICE REALLY UP UNTIL THE DAY BEFORE HE DIED.

I WAS FINISHING THE CORRECTIONS ON MY BOOK, AND HE HAD READ PARTS OF IT AND WAS OFFERING HIS THOUGHTS.

THAT WAS OUR RELATIONSHIP.

>> FANTASTIC.

WELL, THE BOOK IS "THE END OF IRAQ," HOW AMERICAN INCOMPETENCE CREATED A WAR WITHOUT END.

IN IT YOU CALL FOR THE COUNTRY TOPLIT INTO THREE PARTS.

I'M WONDERING IF YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE BREAKDOWN OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, OF CREATING A NEW SPLITTING OFF OF EAST TIMOR, CREATING THAT COUNTRY, INFLUENCED THIS SOLUTION YOU HAVE FOR IRAQ.

>> VERY MUCH.

WHAT I LEARNED IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, OBVIOUSLY THERE IN THE WAR AND THEN IN THE VERY DIFFICULT FIRST YEARS AFTER THE PEACE AGREEMENT, IS THAT WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN A GEOGRAPHICALLY DEFINED AREA THAT DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF A COUNTRY, YOU CAN'T KEEP THEM IN THE COUNTRY.

THE GREAT MISTAKE THAT WE MADE IN TERMS OF OUR DIPLOMACY IN YUGOSLAVIA IN 1991, WE PUT ALL OUR EFFORTS IN TRYING TO HOLD THAT COUNTRY TOGETHER, WHICH COULD NOT BE DONE AND WE DIDN'T FOCUS ON WHAT COULD BE DONE, WHICH WAS TO PREVENT THE WAR THAT FOLLOWED.

IN THE CASE OF IRAQ, YOU HAVE THREE COMMUNITIES.

THE KURDS IN THE NORTH, THE SUNNI ARABS IN THE CENTER, THE SHIITES IN THE SOUTH.

THE KURDS UNANIMOUSLY DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF IRAQ.

THEY NEVER WANTED TO BE PART OF IRAQ.

THEIR EXPERIENCE WITH IRAQ IS REPRESSION AND GENOCIDE.

THEY VOTED IN JANUARY 2005, 98.5% FOR INDEPENDENCE IN A REFERENDUM.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO KEEP THEM IN THAT COUNTRY AND WHY SHOULD WE KEEP THEM IN THAT COUNTRY?

I'M SIMPLY ADVOCATING THAT WE RESPECT THE DECISION OF THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ.

WE NOT TRY TO PUT BACK A COUNTRY THAT'S BROKEN APART.

WE CAN BE HELPED.

WE CAN HELP MANAGE THAT SEPARATION.

THEN IN THE CASE BETWEEN THE SUNNIS AND THE SHIITES, BOTH OF THESE GROUPS THINK OF THEMSELVES AS IRAQI BUT WHAT THEY CANNOT AGREE IS ON A COMMON IDEA OF WHAT THAT MEANS.

THE SHIITES WANT THE COUNTRY TO BE A SHIITE STATE.

THE SUNNIS, WHO RULED FOR 80 YEARS BY FORCE, KEEPING THE SHIITES DOWN, FEEL THEY ARE THE TRUE IRAQIS.

IF WE ALLOW THE CIVIL WAR BETWEEN THE TWO TO PLAY OUT IT WILL END WITH THE VICTORY OF ONE GROUP OVER THE OTHER, ALMOST CERTAINLILY THE SHIITES OVER THE SUNNIS, AND MUCH MORE BLOODSHED THAN WE HAVE NOW, ALLOWING EACH GROUP TO HAVE THEIR OWN REGION SEEMS TO ME TO BE A FORMULA THAT WILL PROVIDE PEACE.

IT'S NOT PERFECT, BUT IT HAS A BETTER CHANCE THAN WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.

>> WOULD YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THIS BEFORE THE INVASION, WHICH YOU ALSO SUPPORTED AT THE TIME?

>> I WENT ALONG WITH IT.

OBVIOUSLY, THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

I WAS VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY ALL MY IRAQI FRIENDS WHO -- I OBVIOUSLY GOT TO KNOW THEM, WHO SPOKE OF THE EVIL SADDAM HUSSEIN.

WE CANNOT FORGET THAT THIS WAS A GENOCIDAL REGIME.

YOU HAD THE GENOCIDE AGAINST THE KURDS, GENOCIDE AGAINST THE MARSH ARABS, BUT AT THE TIME AND WHETHER I TALKED TO PEOPLE IN THE PENTAGON THERE WAS NO WAY KURDISTAN WAS GOING TO BE REINTEGRATED INTO IRAQ.

>> CERTAINLY THAT WOULD BE SEPARATE.

>> IT WASN'T SO CLEAR TO ME THAT AS BETWEEN THE SUNNIS AND SHIITES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF DIVISION.

FRANKLY, IT PROBABLY WASN'T NECESSARY.

A GREAT DEAL OF THIS CIVIL WAR IS A PRODUCT OF OUR FAILURE TO PROVIDE SECURITY TO EVEN PLAN ABOUT PROVIDING SECURITY AFTER WE TOOK OVER IRAQ.

>> ONE THING THAT YOU CERTAINLY -- IS VERY PALPABLE HERE, YOU GO BACK TO IRAQ WITHIN FIVE DAYS OF SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FALL WITH ABC NEWS, YOU'RE A CORRESPONDENT, CONSULTANT FOR THEM, AND YOU NOTICE THIS LACK OF POST WAR PLANNING.

WHAT WERE ONE OR TWO OF THE THINGS THAT WERE PARTICULARLY DISTURBING?

>> THE MOMENT I ENTERED THE CITY I REALIZED THIS WAS NOT A CITY THAT HAD THE FEEL OF LIBERATION.

IT WAS NOT PARIS 1944.

IT WAS A FRIGHTENED CITY, IN THE DARK, AND THERE WERE NO POLICE.

LOOTERS HAD FREE REIGN TO EVERY PUBLIC BUILDING.

THE OTHER POINT IS EVEN WITH THE TROOPS WE HAD, IF THERE HAD BEEN A PLAN TO PROTECT THE GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES WE COULD HAVE DONE SO.

EVERY GOVERNMENT MINISTRY WAS LOOTED AND BURNED EXCEPT THE OIL MINISTRY, WHICH WE DID PROTECT.

THE FAILURE TO DO THAT EXPLAINS A GREAT DIESEL THE FAILURE TODAY.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO WHEN YOU TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY, YOU HAVE TO IMPROVE PEOPLE'S LIVES.

THAT MEANS GETTING GOVERNMENT SERVICES UP AND RUNNING.

IF YOU ALLOW IT IT TO BE DESTROYED YOU CAN'T GET BUREAUCRATS BACK TO WORK OR GET SERVICES UP AND RUNNING.

>> AFTER THREE WEEKS YOU COME BACK TO THE STATES, YOU GO TO DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY WOLFOWITZ AND TELL HIM WHAT YOU SAW.

WHAT WAS THE REACTION?

>> INCIDENTALLY, ONE THE OTHER THINGS WE DIDN'T DO, WE DID NOT SECURE THE SITES THAT WE THOUGHT CONTAINED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION MATERIALS.

I WITNESSED AND ABC REPORTED THE LOOTING OF THE CENTRAL PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY WHICH COLIN POWELL HAD DESCRIBED AS A PRIME SITE FOR BIOLOGICAL RESEARCH INTO WEAPONS PROGRAMS.

LOOTERS TOOK LIVE HIV VIRUS, LIVE BLACK FEVER, CAMEL POX, AND U.S.

SOLDIERS WERE RIGHT NEXT TO THE BUILDING.

NOT 20 FEET AWAY.

>> DIDN'T KNOW.

>> THE LIEUTENANT SAID TO ME, I HOPE I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ARMAGEDDON.

NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT WAS THERE.

THIS WAS THE LACK OF PLANNING.

I DESCRIBED ALL THIS TO WOLFOWITZ.

WE SPENT MAYBE AN HOUR TOGETHER.

HE BECAME MORE AND MORE ANGRY.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHERE I WISHED HE WAS GETTING ANGRY AT WHAT I WAS DESCRIBING, BUT I KNEW HE WAS GETTING ANGRY AT ME FOR DESCRIBING IT.

AFTER THAT MEETING I HAD NO FURTHER CONTACT WITH HIM.

HE NEVER RETURNED A CALL, HIS STAFF NEVER RETURNED A CALL.

>> IT SEEMS FROM WHAT YOU DESCRIBE THERE'S THIS FRUSTRATION THAT YOUR SUGGESTIONS AND PREDICTIONS AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE REAL EXPERIENCE IN THIS REGION WERE OFTEN IGNORED.

IS THAT ULTIMATELY WHAT LED YOU TO LEAVE THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT WHERE YOU HAD BEEN WORK FOG SEVERAL DECADES?

>> PART OF IT.

I WAS ALSO TALKING TO MY KURDISH FRIENDS, AND TRYING TO HELP THEM, WHICH I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK.

I FELT THAT EVEN THOUGH AT THAT TIME I WAS A PROFESSOR AT THE NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY AND SO HAD COMPLETE ACADEMIC FREEDOM I THOUGHT IT WAS BETTER IF I LEFT THE GOVERNMENT AND IF I WAS GOING TO BE PROVIDING ADVICE THAT MIGHT NOT BE EXACTLY WHAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WOULD WANT ME TO, AND IT ALSO GAVE ME THE FREEDOM TO GO BACK TO IRAQ A LOT AND FRANKLY ALSO I HAD LONG RESOLVED THAT WHEN I HAD FINISHED MY USEFUL CAREER IN GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON I WOULD RETURN HOME.

I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION IN 2003 THAT I WAS AT THAT STAGE AND I WANTED TO COME HOME.

>> INTERESTING.

SPEAKING OF HOME, I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS SO INTERESTING THAT YOUR WIFE IS A WELL-KNOWN ANTHROPOLOGIST, AND I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE.

SHE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT MUSLIMS IN BOSNIA AND PRODUCED A FILM.

SHE MUST BE A POWERFUL SOUNDING BOARD TO THAT HUMAN RESPONSE TO ACROSS TEASE AND TERROR.

I WONDER IF YOU HAVE WORKED TOGETHER ON OTHER PROJECTS BESIDES BRINGING UP YOUR KIDS, OF COURSE.

>> WE MET WHEN I WAS AMBASSADOR TO CROATIA.

SHE AD DONE HER FIELD WORK IN A MIXED MUSLIM-CROAT VILLAGE JUST BEFORE THE WAR FOR HER PH.D.

IN '93 SHE WAS IN THE VILLAGE MAKING A FILM WHEN THE CROATS ETHNICALLY CLEANSED THE MUSLIMS OUT OF THE VILLAGE.

WHAT SHE PROVIDED WAS A PICTURE AS TO HOW THIS HAPPENED ON THE HUMAN LEVEL.

HOW PEOPLE WHO HAD LIVED TOGETHER COULD TURN AGAINST EACH OTHER.

IT'S A COMPLICATED PHENOMENON, BUT FOR ME THAT WAS AN EYE-OPENING EXPERIENCE TO TALK WITH HER.

OF COURSE SHE'S A SOUNDING BOARD FOR ALL SORTS OF -- >> HAPPENINGS IN OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD.

WE'RE JUST ABOUT OUT OF TIME.

I HEARD A VERY CONSERVATIVE SOUTHERN MAN WANTED TO BUY YOUR BOOK FOR EVERY DESK FOR ALL THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

HOW IS THE BOOK DOING AND WHAT'S THE REACTION BEEN?

>> YES.

THIS WAS THE BROTHER OF A CONSERVATIVE FORMER CONGRESSMAN FROM NORTH CAROLINA, AND HE READ IT AND HE BOUGHT ONE FOR ALL 535 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

IT'S DONE VERY WELL.

AND I'M HOPING THAT -- I WROTE IT REALLY TO INFORM THE DEBATE ABOUT WHAT WE SHOULD DO ON IRAQ.

IT IS A STRATEGY, AND THE CORE OF THE STRATEGY IS TO ACCEPT THE REALITY OF THE COUNTRY.

LET'S ABANDON OUR GREAT SCHEMES AT NATION BUILDING, ACCEPT THAT IT'S BROKEN UP AND WORK WITH THE PIECES.

I THINK THAT PROVIDES A WAY OUT.

>> AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> VERY GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> WE'LL KEEP LOOKING AT WH