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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone, Steve Adubato.

Yes, we are electing a new governor.

It'll be a new governor in January, 2026.

These two guys know an awful lot about people running for governor and serving the governor.

Phil Alagia is Democratic Strategist, Chief of Staff for the County Executive in Essex County, Joe DiVincenzo.

Phil is also a very strong advocate and advisor for Democrat Mikie Sherrill running for governor.

And his friend and colleague on the GOP side is Dale Florio, Republican Strategist with Princeton Public Affairs, known Jack Ciattarelli for 35 years, Dale?

- 30 years, yeah.

30 years+.

Hey, listen, Phil, if you were to pick the number one issue that will determine who the next governor will be, what would that be and why?

- Making New Jersey affordable and fighting back against Trump and the craziness that's happening in Washington.

- Okay.

Dale.

- Don't disagree about the affordability issue.

I mean, it's huge.

Right, we talk about it all the time.

The question is, how do you get there?

- Okay, let's talk about getting there because I've heard your candidate, Jack Ciattarelli, talk about Mikie Sherrill as a progressive, liberal Democrat who just wants to raise taxes, and it's just Phil Murphy 2.0, make the case, and then I'll get Phil back in.

- Well, she's going to have to defend her record in Congress, right?

So those are things that'll come out.

I mean, I don't think she's as far left as Ras Baraka and Steve Fulop are, but she's not as moderate as Josh Gottheimer and Steve Sweeney.

She kind of, you know, went up the middle there.

But, you know, she has some things on her congressional record that she'll have to defend.

Plus, she'll have to defend 25 years of a Democratic majority in the state and the last eight years of Phil Murphy, much like she's going to say that Jack Ciattarelli is, you know, just the son of Donald Trump.

So, both candidates are going to have to wear what's going on in the state and nationally.

- Phil your turn.

- Well, listen, Jack Ciattarelli has been in the legislature as early as 2011, which is a long time ago.

New Jersey needs new fresh leadership.

Mikie Sherrill got involved after Trump was elected first.

She has a dynamic resume.

She really will bring change.

She's not a trained insider, has not been involved in the legislature in Trenton ever.

And I think it's a fresh new voice that the state needs.

We need a new direction.

- Well, what's this whole thing about, first of all, she's a member of Congress, so she is in fact an elected official, a very high-level legislative position in Washington.

But I'm curious about this, as a former state legislator in a very different life, Phil, you don't need to bring up that I serve one term in lost very quickly, nobody cares.

But here's what's more important: Why is that a bad thing, Dale and then Phil, if someone served in the legislature, served in public life, as if that's a badge to be embarrassed by?

Dale.

- It's not a bad thing.

And I think in the case of Jack, he basically term-limited himself.

He term-limited himself when he was on this Raritan Borough Council.

He served on the Somerset County Board of Freeholders, now Commissioners, and decided to move on to the Assembly.

Spent six years in the Assembly, and then decided that, you know, he was going to run for governor.

So, he's not one who believes in staying in one place at one time, and he feels he has something to offer.

So, I think that government experience works pretty well.

I think, thus, the president learned a lot in his first four terms, in his first four years.

And I think he's approached the presidency with that four-year experience in a much better way this time.

- So Phil, Dale is saying that President Trump is a more mature and seasoned and ready executive because of his previous term.

You say what to that, and what does that have to do with this New Jersey election for governor, one of only two in the nation along with Virginia, after the presidential race of 2024?

Go ahead, Phil Alagia.

- Well, it's clear, I mean, recent polls have indicated that Trump is upside down in favorability, 62, 53, 54% unfavorable, and that's nationally, Steve.

In New Jersey, those numbers are much, much higher.

The State of New Jersey is not for Donald Trump and the craziness that he's bringing to the country, to the White House.

For New Jersey voters, they're going to want someone in the governor's office who's going to fight Trump, who's going to make sure that when he has these crazy executive orders, that our attorney general sues and fights against him, and Mikie Sherrill is going to do that.

Jack Ciattarelli has made it clear he is a MAGA Republican, rarely disagrees, if ever, to Donald Trump.

And if you're a New Jersey resident and you want Donald Trump and his ideas to come into New Jersey, then you should vote for Jack Ciattarelli.

- But don't we want a governor who also works with who the president is?

Isn't that what Chris Christie did with Barack Obama in connection with Hurricane Sandy, Superstorm Sandy, Phil?

- Again, funny you bring up Superstorm Sandy because Jack Ciattarelli voted three times when he was in the legislature to not fund relief for New Jersey residents.

But I think we want a governor who, when it's appropriate to work with whatever leader she can to make sure New Jersey gets what they deserve and what will help New Jersey.

But ultimately, when it comes to abortion rights, when it comes to immigration rights, when it comes to a lot of this MAGA stuff, we do not want to stand with Donald Trump.

- Dale, talk about Jack Ciattarelli as a potential governor and his potential relationship with President Trump, the leader in the Republican party and the leader in the country.

- Jack is a Jersey guy who was born here, he lived here, raised his family here, his parents were here.

That makes him unique in this matchup, by the way.

And he's all about doing what's important for New Jersey to the extent that he's going to have to disagree with the president, and I'm not sure what those issues will be down the road, he will disagree and say, "This is what's important to New Jersey."

When he agrees with the president, he's going to agree with him.

We can only hope that the Sherrill campaign just wants to make this all about Donald Trump.

Because I think the people in New Jersey want to hear about, you know, ways to fix New Jersey, like the new school funding formula, right?

Like affordable housing.

Like reducing the income tax and breaking it down to, like we have five or six categories on the income tax, breaking it down to three.

Lowering the corporate taxes.

We can compete with Pennsylvania.

Those are things that people care about in New Jersey, not whether you're going to be able to scream loudest about Donald Trump.

- Well, let me also be clear, we're taping this in mid to late June, it'll be seen after.

We don't know what's going to happen in the Middle East.

And someone might say, "Steve, why are you bringing up Iran and the United States and Israel?"

Well, it matters.

Because it's a New Jersey issue, it's a national issue, it's an international issue.

We don't know what's going to play out.

Phil, to what extent do you believe do national and international issues, particularly if it involves the potential for the United States to be more engaged and involved in the Middle East, could have on a gubernatorial race?

Phil.

- I think the impact it could have is the mood of the voters.

The governor of New Jersey really doesn't have any say on what happens internationally, but I would want no one better than a former Navy pilot, who was a Russian intelligence officer in the Navy, in the governor's office to provide whatever insight and assistance she can to the residents of New Jersey.

- You're talking about Mikie Sherrill with that background?

- Absolutely.

- Dale.

- The congresswoman has been shaky at best in her support of Israel.

And she's going to have to account for some of the votes that she's taken, which send a signal that she's not necessarily all in with Israel.

We have a tremendous Jewish population, a very active Jewish population in New Jersey, and they'll be listening to what she has to say.

- Phil, is it fair to say that the Republicans are much more united, and listen, we don't do political prognostication, we're much more into policy and issues, but it's about politics too.

That the Republicans are way more unified behind Jack Ciattarelli and Donald Trump, as we speak right now.

But that the Democrats had this very divisive primary, where two of the candidates, the mayors of Newark and Jersey City, who ran and both did well, particularly Ras Baraka, they were very critical of the Democratic nominee for governor.

How the heck did the Democrats come together when in fact, the further progressive left within the party is saying that Democrats can't be moderate and mainstream, the Democrats have to shift gears dramatically, Phil?

And that includes Mikie Sherrill to them.

- I think Mikie Sherrill, you know, the narrative about the progressive part of the party not being with her, she won Warren County and Sussex County, the only two counties that Bernie Sanders won.

So, Mikie's support goes across all demographics, moderate Democrats, progressive Democrats, independent.

She is an unbelievable candidate who will do well.

The Democratic party is united, having a big primary where we had over 800,000 people come out and vote, an unprecedented number of people who wanted to make sure they elected a strong Democrat, is only going to transfer to a huge plurality and a huge victory in November.

- Dale, let me ask you something.

When it comes to ICE, mass deportation, we saw what happened out in Los Angeles, we saw the president send in the National Guard and the Marines, and he said it could happen in other places.

Again, we hope and pray that does not happen and we do not want to see any violence in our streets.

Along those lines, where is Jack Ciattarelli on the issue of immigration?

Because he keeps calling New Jersey a, quote, "Sanctuary state."

Is that an official designation, Dale?

- It's certainly a talking point that was started by the governor.

- Governor Murphy.

- Governor Murphy, yes.

What Jack Ciattarelli will ensure is that New Jersey state law enforcement will work with ICE on matters that ICE deems important in terms of looking for people in New Jersey that shouldn't be here.

And that has not been the case.

I think just weeks ago, the attorney general reissued a directive to the state police not to help the ICE officials on certain types of warrants.

And that won't be the case under Ciattarelli administration.

It'll be working with ICE, full-time, whenever they need them, whenever they need the state.

- So, and under Ciattarelli governorship, state police, law enforcement professionals will be either forced, or whatever you want to say, to be engaged and work with ICE.

Even if they believe that people who are here without documentation who are not criminals and engaged in violent crime, they just have to be removed, whether it's in a church, or a bodega, or a school.

- Well right now, whether it's a criminal, right now, as I understand it, whether it's a criminal or civil complaint filed against an illegal immigrant, the State of New Jersey is not supporting ICE as it relates to these civil issues, right?

My understanding is that they are helping out on the criminal side, but not completely on the civil side.

So we're not even talking about people that are here illegally, but don't have anything pending against them.

- Phil, I want to give you the final word on this complex immigration, mass deportation issue, which is going to matter greatly in this campaign.

- Well, first of all, I do not want to give Mikie's view on that because that's up to her.

But she's been a former federal prosecutor who's been involved in the criminal justice system, I'm sure she wants to make sure that ICE agents are not going crazy to our towns and arresting people for no reason and locking people up and detaining people.

But, you know.

- But they're here illegally, Phil.

You're saying for no reason, they're here illegal.

- I think undocumented is a better word.

- Okay, go ahead.

- So listen, I'm sure she wants a fair process so people can get to citizenship.

I'm sure that anyone, the way I feel is anyone who has committed a serious crime should not be allowed to stay in this country.

But, you know, I think that, ultimately, the undocumented community, people who come here for what this country is all about.

Coming here, getting citizenship, and being productive members on our society.

- We'll continue talking with leaders like Phil Alagia on the Democratic side and Dale Florio on the Republican side.

This race is huge, one of only two, as I said, in the country, two gubernatorial races after Donald Trump was elected president.

New Jersey is a bellwether.

It is not so blue as some people think.

It's going to be interesting to see who becomes the next governor, and will engage those candidates.

Jack Ciattarelli on the Republican side, Mikie Sherrill on the Democratic side, an in depth issue-oriented discussion about the next governorship.

To Dale and to Phil, thanks for joining us, gentlemen.

- [Both] Thanks, Steve.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To see more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato programs, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We have him back.

He is State Senator Anthony Bucco, Republican leader in the Senate, a new grandfather, and also one more thing, Senator Bucco was recently named Legislator of the Year by the New Jersey Conference of Mayors.

Senator, congratulations on more than one count.

Thanks for joining us.

- Thank you, obviously the grandfather part is top of the list.

- Yeah.

No disrespect to the Conference of Mayors, but you know.

Hey, Senator, let me ask you this.

New governor in 2026 in January, Jack Ciattarelli, Republican, you're supporting the Democrat, Congresswoman Mikie Sherill.

Top couple of issues that you believe the new governor will face.

Whoever is elected, I'll remind folks we're doing in-depth public policy issues that matter to you, conversations with both the congresswoman and former state legislator, Jack Ciattarelli.

Go ahead, Tony.

- Well, I think, look, first and foremost, affordability here in New Jersey has gotta be addressed.

And the next governor is gonna have a tough time at that.

You know, this budget that's coming up that we're gonna vote on by the end of the month is 58- - We're taping in late June everyone.

Folks, Jersey's budget has to be constitutionally in place by the last day of June.

I'm sorry, Senator, go ahead.

- Correct, this budget that we're gonna adopt sometime between now and the end of June is $58 billion, give or take.

It's gonna leave a huge structural deficit for the next governor to have to resolve.

So affordability is gonna be a key issue on their plate, and they are gonna have to address it, and they're gonna have to address it from day one of when taking office.

- Talk about utility rates.

As we speak, utility rates, energy costs are going up significantly in the state.

Please, Senator.

- Well, you know, that goes to the affordability crisis again.

You know, I think this governor has missed the boat here on this one.

You know, I think the governor and my democratic colleagues on the other side of the aisle chose ideology over practicality when it came to developing our energy policy.

You know, you and I have talked about this a number of times on this show, and I've said for years now that you know, we can't decrease supply and increase demand.

And that's exactly what this Energy Master Plan has done.

And now what we're seeing is that New Jersey has become a net importer of electricity.

And when that happens, you're at the mercy of the grid.

And as demand continues to go up, - The energy grid that, is it PJM?

Is that the name of it?

- That is, that's PJM.

- PJM is the, this is complex.

We're actually gonna do an in-depth interview with the president of the Board of Public Utilities talking about this.

They set the price Senator?

- Well, they go to an auction.

And as a result, they have to purchase energy and then they distribute it to the region.

- Well, how's that Governor Murphy, how's that the Democrat's fault?

- Well, look what happened here as a result of the Governor's Energy Master plan, is we shut down gas fired plants.

We moth-balled a nuclear plant.

And at the same time, we began to ramp up demand by saying, we're going to be completely electric.

You're gonna have to buy an electric vehicle by 2035.

And at the same time, we went all in on wind energy and that wind energy program failed.

And as a result of that, we are now having to buy electricity off the grid.

Seven years ago, we were selling electricity to the grid.

We had excess electricity.

And today, seven years later, as a result of this policy, you know, trying to make New Jersey, the California of the East Coast, we are now in a position we are at the mercy of purchasing our energy off the grid.

- Senator, sorry Senator for interrupting.

But along those lines, many Republicans, President Trump, not sure where Jack Ciattarelli is on this, deny and if they don't deny, they minimize climate change.

Many would argue that, and I'm not here to defend Governor Murphy, but that another perspective is to find alternative sources of energy that help us deal with climate change.

Where does that fit into the agenda for the next governor, Senator?

- Yeah, I wanna make something clear.

- Please.

- Republicans are not denying climate change.

- Some do Senator respectfully, some do.

- Some may do, but for the most majority, I can tell you- - You do not.

- For my caucus, I can tell you that folks recognize that we have an issue.

And the problem though becomes when you go all in on this renewable too fast, you can't meet the demand that's out there, and they can't put the renewable energy into the grid because it's not reliable.

Like if you have a week like we just had, where the sun's not out, what does the producers of the- - As we're taping, it's been raining a lot.

But go ahead, Senator.

Hopefully when this airs, it'll be a nice sunny day.

But go ahead.

- Let's hope so, but what happens is, when you have a week like we just went through, where the sun is not shining, the electricity is not being produced under these renewable scenarios at the rate that it should be.

So you can't say, "Hey, put this energy into the grid," because if they can't meet the demand, then what happens?

You have a brownout.

That's what's happening in California.

Same thing has the potential to happen here if we don't ramp up our supply.

Now, I would say that you need a gradual approach to this renewable energy, but while you are ramping that up and you're putting that online, you still have to have the backup of gas powered, nuclear powered and other energy sources to meet the demand.

If you don't, you'll have a supply problem.

- Senator, okay listen, you talked about California.

I'm gonna try to make this connection.

As we do this program in late June, LA, we know what happened there, particularly as it relates to protests in the streets.

President Trump sends in National Guard, then the US Military, Marines.

President said that could happen in other places across the nation, particularly when it comes to so-called sanctuary states, which I'm not sure is an official title, but Jack Ciattarelli, Republican candidate for governor, I'll get to my question, calls it a sanctuary state.

He says he is gonna stop at day one.

What is your view of the appropriate role, Senator, of the federal government, vis-a-vis deporting people who are here in an undocumented capacity and the role of the state?

Because right now it's this senator.

- Well, I can tell you what we have to do.

We have to allow law enforcement agencies to communicate amongst themselves.

And unfortunately, some of the laws that have been enacted and one of the laws pending in Trenton right now would prohibit that communications.

And that's wrong.

It would also prohibit the deportation of someone, who is here illegally who has committed a crime.

That's wrong.

- Doesn't it depend upon the crime Senator?

- Listen, I think that if you commit, you're here illegally and you commit a crime, you need to be deported.

It's as simple as that.

And we can't have laws that interfere with law enforcement's communications between each other or the deportation of those individuals that are here illegally that commit a crime.

It is as simple as that.

It's pretty easy and straightforward.

And look, I think that that's the approach that needs to be taken.

- But Senator, don't tactics matter?

Don't law enforcement tactics matter in terms of how they find people, where they find people, how they remove people, separating mothers and fathers from children who are now wards of the state, if you will.

I mean, doesn't it matter how it's not, because no one's gonna disagree with anything you just said, Senator, but how does matter?

Please, Senator Bucco.

- Tactics do matter.

I think a lot of times things get blown out of proportion.

I think that, you know, we have to be sensitive to that fact.

We can't operate on rumor and speculation.

- That's right.

- We have to watch and look at the facts as they develop and then make our adjustments accordingly.

But I can tell you this, that, you know, you talk about protests in LA.

You know, I don't know about protests, but you know, when people are throwing rocks at police officers, when they're burning cars, when it gets outta hand like that, you need to protect the residents of that state.

And if the state can't handle it, then the federal government has the right to step in and take control of that particular situation.

- Senator, no one would argue with anything you just said, but some of the same people who say the same thing you just said, would somehow characterize January 6th and the attacking of law enforcement professionals with all sorts of weapons, hurting, and in some cases, officers died later.

Somehow that was different.

That's not you, but there are many on the Republican side of the aisle, the so-called MAGA wing of the party, which is the party for the most part.

Somehow that was different.

Do you believe it was different?

- Oh, completely different.

You know, completely different.

- No meaning you've criticized those who did what they did to The Capitol on January 6th.

- Absolutely, those that did what they did to The Capitol on January 6th that put their hands on police officers, that destroyed federal property need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

It's as simple as that.

You know, you commit a crime, you need to be arrested and you need to be prosecuted, given your due process rights, and take it from there.

- Regardless of who the perpetrator or the victim is.

And it's hard to argue with that logic.

Senator Anthony Bucco, Senate Republican leader, new grandfather, thank you Senator for joining us.

Wish you all the best.

That's six.

You just told me, there's six grandchildren.

- Yeah.

This last one is a little girl.

So we now have three and three.

Three boys and three girls.

- Thank you, Senator.

All the best.

- Thank you.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

That's the new grandfather, six times over, Senator Bucco.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by United Airlines.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Let’s be healthy together.

The New Jersey Education Association.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Kean University.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

Eastern Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters.

New Brunswick Development Corporation.

And by IBEW Local 102.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by NJBIZ.

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You'll have access to advanced treatments, including clinical trials, thanks to our renowned scientists and multidisciplinary teams at New Jersey's only NCI-Designated Comprehensive Cancer Center, the one world class cancer program that's close to home.