>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, we hope by now you've been checking out WXXI newest podcast series, The Move to include podcast series that features really extraordinary stories of people living with disabilities in a society that may or may not welcome them.

At times, stories of self-advocacy.

The host of the podcast is my colleague Noel Evans from WXXI News, and you're going to hear and see the two newest episodes starting now.

>> This is the move to include podcast.

I'm Noel Evans, Maggie McCrumb has always known she can do the job.

That part was never in question.

What's been harder is everything else.

The hoops she jumps through to prove herself, transportation issues, even attitudes about people with disabilities in the workplace.

After graduating from a transition program she loved, Maggie was ready to work.

But finding the right fit has proven to be a job of its own.

In this conversation, Maggie talks about her experience and her journey of self-advocacy and why being employed is important to her.

And we're joined by Karis Happe, director of transition services for the Arc of Monroe.

Her work is about helping Maggie and others access the support they need to find meaningful employment.

Thank you both for coming.

>> Yes.

Thank you.

>> Yeah.

Thanks for having us.

>> Maggie.

What does self-advocacy mean for you?

>> To be a self-advocate, to me at least, is to.

If you really want something, you need to work hard for it.

You can't just say sit on your behind and expect people to give you what you want.

You gotta.

You gotta work your butt off for it.

>> If you don't mind starting, how did you get involved with self-advocacy and how did that lead you towards where you are today?

>> So I started with self-advocacy through something called creating a life after high school.

And so basically creating a life after high school is a program where you learn how to do different things.

After you get out of high school, like what do you want to learn?

What do you want to like, learn live?

And there were two other topics on the vision board, but I don't remember.

And the one that I was in was at University of Rochester in 2016, 2017.

And it was called Transitional Opportunities at the University of Rochester, or tour for short.

>> How was that for you in terms of like, did that do you feel that that set you up well for the future?

Yeah.

Can you say a bit more about what about that stood out to you?

>> Well, being in college, you learn how to be more independent, obviously, because it's college.

But with the tour program, you get to take classes and then you also have an internship on site.

Like the first year you're there, you have your internship on site, like the library or the one of the dining halls.

And then your second year, you can go out to wherever, like whatever job you're interested in.

And now I'm looking for either a job in food service or retail.

>> Okay.

Why those two in particular?

>> I would choose retail or food service because I enjoy making people happy and I love to put a smile on people's faces.

>> So that interaction.

Yes, absolutely carries for you.

I mean, how did you get involved with job path and, you know, working with folks?

>> So I will say it was kind of random.

I think for a lot of people, they don't know that this field exists of helping people with disabilities look for jobs or succeed with work.

and for me, I didn't really know and I applied for the job and I got it.

And then I've come to love the field.

I've been working in it now for almost ten years.

And it is, I think people don't know that job coaches exist.

But once you do know and you're out and about, then you see them everywhere.

But it's nice because you get to really be able to make an impact and help people who are capable of working.

They just need a little extra help to make sure they're learning those tasks or being able to encouraging them to advocate for themselves at work.

And then you're able to do that.

And it's awesome to see.

>> I understand you two know each other.

>> Yes, >> Yes.

>> She used to be my job coach.

>> Yes.

>> So when I first started.

>> Yeah.

So maybe was that it was after you graduated tour?

>> Yes.

>> Yep.

And so we looked for jobs together and I actually helped Maggie find her very first job, I think.

Was that your first job?

>> Yeah.

>> I think so.

So this was when Maggie was looking for childcare.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

Her and I worked together.

We applied for lots of jobs together.

And then she got her first job, and I was the job coach that was with her every day.

>> Okay.

What were some of the lessons you took from that?

>> learning how to be more patient with children.

Obviously.

And I also did a, I took a class at rock.

>> Rock is Rochester educational Opportunity Center.

>> And I took the CDA class and got my associate's degree.

>> It's the child development associate.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

A lot of daycares require that you do it.

Yeah.

So that's y Maggie did it at the time because that was her employment goal.

>> Yeah.

It was interesting that your first job in a way, as you mentioned, like one of the things that you took from it is learning how to be more patient with kids.

>> Yes.

>> Sounds like it actually has set you up well to be an aunt.

>> Yeah.

Not just with kids.

Just in general.

You need to learn how to be more patient with some, with people sometimes, like you don't know what, you never know what they're going through because they could have they could have had a hard day at work or whatever.

So you just got to be patient and polite.

>> When it comes to looking for jobs, like, are there any things that get in the way for you?

>> it depends.

Like usually it's okay, but if, sometimes, if I don't necessarily get along with someone, then what I do is I try to, I would usually let my coworker know if I need to take five minutes for a breather.

And that's what I usually do.

But sometimes that doesn't always work.

I'm like oh.

>> Doesn't work.

What do you mean?

Like, you need five minutes to like, cool off or.

>> Yeah, like to breathe before I get back, get my head back into work.

>> You say sometimes it doesn't always work.

>> Yes.

Because sometimes I may have outbursts and I'm like, that's not good.

>> Is it something that you found like over time that you've been able to manage differently?

>> Yes, I have this necklace that when a lot of people look at it, at first it looks like a whistle, but it's actually an anxiety necklace.

And I it helps with my breathing.

To calm my heart rate down and my breathing.

And that way I don't, I'm not all panicky because I get panic attacks sometimes as someone who has a disability.

>> I'm wondering, are there other ways that folks can look out for themselves as they're, you know, entering spaces that might not necessarily be maybe even designed for people with disabilities in mind?

>> Yeah.

I mean, I think advocating for yourself is really important, but also like knowing what those needs are in order to advocate for yourself properly.

So I think that once you.

>> Knowing your needs.

>> Yes.

Yeah.

Knowing what your needs are like, for example, Maggie just said that she knows that sometimes she needs to calm down.

So if she knows that she needs that, she wears the necklace and then she's prepared for it.

And so there are lots of things like, for example, myself, I could never work in childcare because and I have two kids, but they're it's, it's loud, it's noisy.

It's.

And so if I know myself, I know that's not a good fit for me.

And being able to say that when someone is encouraging you like, oh, but I think you'd be really good at this job.

But knowing because like a lot of people was like, oh, you should be a teacher.

And I was like, that's not for me.

And so just like I would advocate for myself, I would also encourage people, we support that.

If you know, something is not a good fit, you know, it's you're not going to do well with the noises or dealing with rude customers or anything like that.

To advocate for yourself.

As for specific like environmental things, like maybe certain lights or temperatures a lot of times people are willing to make the accommodation if they just know that they need to.

So being able to speak up for yourself and say like, hey, like fluorescent lights, give me a headache.

Then a lot of places are willing to help make adjustments if they can.

>> Yeah, exactly.

I agree with you, Charisse.

And I also just want to say to anybody who may give people with disabilities a hard time, just please be patient with us.

>> What are some of the misconceptions that you've run into.?

>> Maggie some of the misconceptions I run into as someone with a disability is that we get stereotyped.

So say someone looks at me and they're like, oh, you have a disability and they use the R word.

Sometimes they might not say it, but they might think it like, oh, you have a disability.

Yeah, you can't do that.

Right?

I'm like.

I know that people, I know that the world isn't great right now, but people with disabilities need to be appreciated more.

>> I would say we run into that a lot where people assume that someone is incapable because they have a disability.

But I think very frequently that's not the case.

And in a lot of times, depending on the person, there are.

Yeah, everyone has different skills.

>> And they can and also don't also, don't pity us.

Don't feel bad for us because even though we may look like we need help, we don't always need help unless we ask for it.

But most of the time we can do stuff on our own.

We appreciate the help and.

I just want to say that I just think, like I said before, people with disabilities need to be given a chance and people who don't understand that need to be more patient and willing to help.

>> So like you see someone doing something and you're like, oh, that's like, and it throws someone off, but it could be because they have a disability and they just have to stim.

And once they're done, they're going to get right back to work.

And so I think just, just stim, stim.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Do you.

meaning what?

Stimming.

there's a whole bunch of different kinds of stimming, but like, so it's generally a repetitive.

>> Flapping your hands.

>> Like, yeah.

this like a repetitive movement that people can use to calm themselves down frequently.

It's frequently for calming down.

Sometimes if they are getting really overwhelmed, then they need to stim to bring themselves back down.

>> Generally nervous system regulation.

>> Yeah.

So then someone might need to just do a have a minute to themselves and then they're ready to get right back to work.

And so I think going in with that mindset of like, you don't know what the people around you need.

Yeah, let them do their thing.

It's not hurting you, you know, let, let them stim for a minute and get right back to the job.

And that's fine.

>> I agree.

I just don't like how people may look at people with disabilities and be like, you, like, just please don't stereotype us.

My vision for ten years from now would probably be not living on my own, possibly with a partner like a significant other, maybe.

And, I don't know, maybe a house, apartment, house, townhouse, whatever.

Or, I don't know, just somewhere that we can afford.

And that's close to where we work.

>> So love in your life.

Yes.

I'm curious in your experience as a job coach, if you've seen any sort of themes come up or trends of, you know, if somebody's struggling with a job and, you know, there could be that, whether it's internal ableism or external ableism, that assumption that like, well, then I can't do it.

And therefore, like, that's it.

>> Yes.

>> But we all struggle.

So.

>> Correct.

I think 100% there is sometimes there's this checklist either in your mind or your supports mind saying that unless you can drive to work, unless you can you know, deal with customers unless you can.

And there's a checklist of things.

And if you can't do all of those things, then there's this mindset that you're not ready to work.

but we don't believe that's true.

We say everyone is ready to work.

It's just a matter of finding the type of job that's the best fit for you.

And so that happens with sometimes people not even wanting to try or their supports not wanting to try.

Or maybe they do one job and it's not a good fit.

And then they're like, oh, guess I'm not ready to work.

But that's not necessarily the case.

We believe that everyone is ready to work.

It's just a matter of, okay, so at that job, maybe we realized that customer interaction is hard.

Okay, there are lots of jobs that don't have customer interaction.

Or maybe we realize that you know, the location of that job wasn't a good fit because you had a hard time getting there.

Or maybe it started too early in the morning.

We can make adjustments just like you or I would in our own employment histories.

Most people don't stay at that first job forever.

They learn things at work and then they look for another job.

And so I would definitely encourage people that even if it hasn't been a good fit in the past, you have not worked at every job in the world.

You know, you can keep trying and you can find other jobs that are a good fit.

>> And never give up on your hopes and dreams.

That's what I would say.

>> Yeah.

Does that ring true for you?

The.

Definitely, yeah.

What about when some of that friction is people's attitudes towards you or, you know, potential discrimination?

>> Yeah, I, I found that a lot of times it takes, it just takes education to overcome that where people have assumptions, but it's because they, maybe they haven't interacted with very many people with disabilities.

So they've heard about it.

Or let me rephrase that.

People that they with no disabilities, I think there's a lot more disabilities out there than people might know.

but once you talk to them and especially once you kind of explain like you don't, it doesn't even have to be every single person with a disability, but this specific person has this really strong skill set.

And this is why you should give them a chance.

And a lot of times employers or people, once they see that that's not true, like the stereotypes that they've had, they're a lot more willing to accept it and then even work going forward.

there are definitely times where people unfortunately don't let go of their stereotypes.

And with that, I think I encourage just like you or I, if there was an environment that wasn't treating me properly, I wouldn't continue to work there.

And so that's what I also encourage for people we support.

There are so many supportive people out there.

There's no need to be around a toxic one, though.

>> Legally there is.

The Americans with Disabilities Act that should help to protect people.

Correct.

In that case, are you familiar with if, let's say, a reasonable accommodation request needs to like there there is a need for that, or if there's something that's not being addressed that could essentially be discrimination, like what people can do.

Yeah.

That empowerment piece.

>> Yeah.

So one website that I really like is called Ask Jan, which is just a s k j a n.org.

And it's the job accommodation network and it has lists of different accommodations that you can request.

So if there's a problem that you're having, like let's say you're having a really hard time focusing at work, you're not really sure what to do, and maybe you don't have access to a job coach to help you.

You can go on that website and it gives you lists of different ideas on that website.

It also gives you the exact process to go through.

If you need to request a reasonable accommodation, including it gives you like letters and things that you can just adjust to yours so you don't have to start from scratch.

So I really like that.

And then yes, the Ada encourages employers to provide reasonable accommodations.

I will say that unfortunately, it can be pretty hard to prove discrimination in some cases.

So it's harder to force action if the employer is not is like kind of fighting you on.

>> It by saying that it would cause undue hardship towards.

>> Correct.

Because we kind of can't like the undue hardship.

Like I might not think it's an undue hardship, but they might think it's an undue hardship.

And it's kind of hard to battle that.

but I think most of the time when you make a reasonable accommodation, employers are willing to make that adjustment.

>> Maggie what advice would you give to folks who want to take that first step towards self-advocacy?

>> I would say don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it.

And.

I don't know.

Sorry.

>> How'd you do it for you?

Like, and was there like a particular moment where you felt a shift?

>> Yeah, definitely.

>> What was that?

>> So at first I felt I mean, it's it can be scary at first because you don't know what the outcome is going to be, but if I could give anyone advice, I would just say go for it.

Don't be afraid.

And really, you shouldn't care what anybody else says or thinks about you.

>> Carries for you.

What does self-advocacy mean?

>> I think self-advocacy means speaking up for yourself, right?

I feel like that's kind of the given, but it's more than just saying it.

But like really standing for it.

Like if you want to be independent, then let's take those steps and let's take action towards it.

And then also not being afraid of maybe disagreeing with if you have a different vision for what you want for your life, then maybe what other people want for your life, that's okay.

And you can advocate for what you want your life to look like, because that is what being a self-advocate is all about, is advocating for what your goals are, not what other people's goals for you are.

>> I couldn't have said that better myself.

I would definitely agree with you.

>> The one thing that I would want to add is just that there are a bunch of different levels of support of employment services.

So if you want help with like maybe you don't need help on the job, but you need help with resumes, cover letters, applications, there are services that can just provide that, or there are services that can come and see you at work and help with that.

There are services that can help negotiate positions to create brand new positions at work, to help create a position that's a good fit for you.

And there are services that are more one on one long term to assist.

So no matter where you're at and what you need to be successful, there is a service that can help you get ready for employment and ready for that next step.

So I would encourage people that if your goal is employment, there is a service that can help you to reach that goal and not to get discouraged by maybe one unsuccessful story in the past.

If you want to.

Maybe that just wasn't the right level of support and we can find a different service that's going to be a good fit and help you succeed.

>> Wonderful.

>> Don't be afraid to reach out of your shell.

I mean, it might seem scary at first, but once you do it, you'll get better and better at it with time.

>> Get the reps in.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> And I would encourage people to, to be I know we were talking about being patient with other people, but also being patient with ourselves because success is not a straight line.

Yeah.

Right.

So we.

>> Had kind of so hard on yourself.

>> Yes.

So if maybe you went at your last meeting, you weren't, you didn't advocate for yourself as much as you were hoping to.

That's okay.

Let's try again next time.

And so if or maybe you try a job and it doesn't work out, that's okay.

Let's keep trying.

And so being patient with yourself as you're learning, I think there's very few people that are succeed at everything they want.

The first time they try it, right.

So it's good.

>> It takes always happen.

>> Yep.

And it's okay.

So yeah, give yourself.

>> Grace.

Be okay.

Just take a breath and you'll find a job or whatever you're looking for at the right time and moment.

>> That was Maggie McCrumb a Self-advocate and Cara's hap, director of transition services for the Arc of Monroe.

For more information on self-advocacy, visit our website at Move to Include.

Org, you can support this podcast by subscribing or following wherever you get your podcasts.

Leave us a review and share us on social media.

We're at Move to Include.

This podcast is produced by WXXI Public Media.

>> Coming up in our second hour, it's our Friday news round.

We're going to Rock Festival gives us the first.

>> So great grooving and Puck Porter Evan Dawson for the news and Thatcher's of Bob Johnson Auto Group.

>> Austin's step out of our past.

>> This is the twin past.

I'm Noelle Evans.

Aaron is disability justice activist.

For decades she has been national leader of social change and disability advocacy, organizing around voting rights, equality for Black and Indigenous peoples, accessibility and transportation and community integration for people with disabilities.

Anita has been arrested many times over for acts of civil disobedience, including in 1990 when she and about 100 people were arrested for holding a sit in inside the U.S.

Capitol the day after the historic Capitol crawl, pushing for the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

She has also been a pioneer of inclusion in emergency preparedness.

In 2004, she trained to become a member of CERT, the Community Emergency Response Team in Washington, D.C.. She has since worked with CERT in Denver, Colorado, and Rochester, New York.

She's responded to disasters like floods and fires and trained and recruited more people with disabilities to get involved in emergency preparedness.

I sat down with Anita to talk to her about her history, working in disability rights, why emergency preparedness is so important, and ways that disabled people can become first responders and community supports in times of need.

Anita, thank you so much for joining me today.

>> Thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure.

>> I know we're going to talk about disaster preparedness, but before we do, you have done so much.

And I'm just wondering for you where it seems like you have such a strong sense of purpose, and I'm wondering where and how you came about finding that.

>> So I was born with multiple disabilities.

but I was mainstreamed into regular school at a time when disabled children had no rights to an education.

because I was gifted I started reading before the age of two.

And by the time I was five years old, I was literally reading at university level.

And so that meant that I read a lot about the civil rights movement.

And I found myself feeling guilty for being born too late to participate in that.

So at the age of nine, I made a vow, if you will, a written vow to make the world a better place for everyone.

And at the age of 16, I got involved in social justice movements, social change.

I started out, you know, in anti-nuclear war movement and peace and justice and anti-apartheid.

I worked with homeless, houseless people.

I worked with immigrants, LGBTQ community, because by that time, you know, I had come out and at the age of 21 got introduced to the disability movement.

>> With your work in protest and direct action.

I mean, at what point did your thought process move to how to respond to disaster?

For instance?

>> Well, I'm disabled and I take disability disability with me everywhere I go.

While I was in Washington, D.C., I was appointed to the Mayor's Commission for people with disabilities.

And one day in late 2004, I was attending a seminar.

At that seminar, someone spoke about emergency preparedness.

They spoke about CERT Community Emergency Response Team, and CERT is a national program is overseen by FEMA.

practically every jurisdiction either has a cert.

team or has an emergency preparedness department.

whatnot.

And they were talking about certain I can someone with a disability get involved in cert and they told me yes and told me when the next class opened up, they would invite me.

And sure enough, I got an invite and I took the course.

I was the only disabled person in the class in Washington, D.C., and I began noticing very quickly that they were going to just let me sit there and look pretty and not really teach me anything, and I called out my instructors and told them, don't you dare do that.

Work with me.

I can show you how I can do things.

I can transfer from my wheelchair to the floor to do CPR.

I can do things at least work with me to see how we do it.

Don't just let me sit there.

So obviously I passed that and I became a certain Washington, D.C., and then when I moved to Rochester in 2008, we decided to have a CERT class there.

And our CERT class was inclusive.

19 of the 21 of us were folks with various disabilities.

we were folks who spoke English as a second language.

And the bigwigs from Washington, D.C.

from FEMA actually came to our, our graduation and we presented them with a Braille copy of the FEMA materials and a copy in Spanish, because they did not have that.

And then I moved back to Colorado and became a cert in Colorado.

And that's where things really jumped off.

>> How so?

>> Well, I took my course and my graduation exercise was inaccessible to me.

MM.

And I spoke to Denver Cert about that.

They said, okay, we're not going to let this happen again.

What do we do?

And I got really involved in that and decided that I wanted to become a cert instructor and became the first blind certain instructor for the state of Colorado.

And then I decided to take it even further and became a CERT program manager, got my certification for that where I designed cert programs.

And I actually entered into a contract with the state of Colorado to teach emergency preparedness as an independent living skills course to teach disabled people who were coming out of nursing homes into their own homes and apartments about disaster preparedness and how to make a safety plan.

>> With preparing folks for disasters.

There's so many kinds, right?

Like where do you I was called.

>> Up for duty in Colorado for the floods.

MM.

There was a team of us ham radio operators.

All of us were disabled.

And we helped rescue workers get into we guided them into remote areas to help people, you know, evacuate.

The thing about Denver Cert was disabled people were often placed in leadership positions, which is unusual because oftentimes, well, we're not really valued, if you will.

but Colorado was so exemplary in that disabled people, we were all put into positions of leadership based on our skills.

And so.

>> This conversation, at first, I thought when we talk about disaster preparedness of like, what can people do for themselves?

And what you're talking about is how to be a first responder.

>> Well, yeah, but because in disasters, we lose people with disabilities.

We are often not we're not thought of, we're not provided for.

Often we're forgotten.

And when things happen, we have to make sure, hey, you set these shelters are open.

Are they accessible?

you know, are disabled people going to, you know, get turned away?

You know, someone going to turn, you know, a frightened child with autism away because, you know, the child is frightened and you know, all of that.

And so that was mostly what I did.

But, you know, there's practical things too.

And I've written, you know, guides and whatnot on how people with disabilities prepare for disasters, which isn't too different from how non-disabled people, you know, prepare for disaster.

We teach our folks to, to create a bug out bag in case.

And that's a knapsack or something that you put change of clothes, you put a little food, a bit of water, some batteries, first aid kit, things of that nature to take with you when you have to go.

And then we teach people how to create a situation where if you have to shelter in place, which means stay at home or shelter, stay where you are, you know, to create a bug in bag for home, you know, which means, for example, water, water is very important.

A gallon a day for up to three days.

I say more, I say 3 to 5 days, even a week, one gallon per person per day for food, for water, hygiene and all.

If you have pets, goes for your pets, service animals goes for service animal a gallon a day for them as well.

Each day.

Foods.

I always tell people try nonperishable foods, foods you don't have to cook.

foods like crackers, peanut butters, fun snacks for the kids and all because you don't know if power goes away.

And if your power goes, you're not going to be able to cook, right.

and very few people have like generators set up, you know, very few people have that.

I show people how to escape from their house using windows and doors, things of that nature count.

How many windows do you have in your house?

How many doors, how many exits?

Where does that lead to?

Find a space.

If you have a family, pick a space.

A spot where you're going to meet.

If you're separated.

I tell people, you know, in an emergency situation like this, don't use your cell phones to call because a lot of times the cell service is overwhelmed.

And if you have to call someone, that's where you want to keep out of town.

Family members and whatnot, numbers on hand, because sometimes it's easier to call out of the area and better yet to text.

Much better to text, because then you're not using the the cell service, you're using the data.

And that's a lot easier.

A lot of people don't realize that when it really goes down, that's where ham radio comes in.

And you can get messages through to people using ham radio.

That was what happened in Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico.

in certain parts of Texas.

I've helped remotely.

I've assisted people in Hurricane Harvey and Hurricane Irma.

And Hurricane Maria.

And so with the new technology going though, there's so many ways that people with disabilities can can assist.

And we really need to be able to assist if a big disaster happens.

Guess what?

The government isn't coming.

That's the first thing we tell people.

The government isn't coming.

It's probably going to be certs that are going to be helping.

So certs assist first responders in disasters.

sometimes they they're the ones who are doing things until the first responder can, you know, can show up.

That's why it's so important that we as disabled, we have the right to be rescued, but that we also really need to be part of the effort part of emergency preparedness ourselves.

And the unique thing about cert is that anyone can become a cert, including children.

I actually taught children to become certs, kids as young as ten.

I recruited an 85 year old blind woman who successfully completed her cert training.

I trained probably about 200 seniors in emergency preparedness and recruited about 30 people with disabilities of all ages to become certs themselves.

So, you know, people with disabilities, we can do this, you know, never wait to disaster strikes to get prepared.

>> When you've trained people to be first responders, do you see a shift in mindset for them from maybe folks that might have seen themselves as a liability or seen like, maybe there's no other way?

>> Oh, when I've trained disabled people to become certs, they, you know, they gained confidence because they learned that there are things that they can do.

And they learned that they can't.

If something happens and they're okay and their family's okay, they know that they can go and check on neighbors and make sure that they're okay.

And, you know, neighborhoods and communities, they can form their own cert teams.

You go through the training and, you know, actually they, they had, I don't know if they still have, but they had online training.

in these courses, free everything as far as I went with cert, everything was free, literally free.

Didn't have to pay for anything, you know my, my, you know, books, you know, my bug out bag, you know, my cert, you know, gear, all of that was provided for me.

And it's provided for everyone, you know, who, who goes through that.

And that was a way for me.

Going through cert was a way for me that I knew that I could help my community and that I would not feel helpless.

You know, if a disaster occurred that, you know, if I was okay and uninjured.

And, you know, my wife.

In fact, I got my wife to become a cert.

>> All right.

>> Yeah.

>> Does it take some convincing?

>> A little bit, but eventually, you know, c c relented.

>> I was always told what I couldn't do and I was always compared to my twin sister who was non-disabled.

And I got sick and tired of being told what I couldn't do.

And so whenever someone told me I couldn't do something, I would figure out a way to do it.

If I'm hindered, you know, I will try to educate you.

And if that does not work you know, I will use the multi pronged approach up to and including direct action, nonviolent civil disobedience.

And I've been arrested here in Rochester a couple of times.

at protests here locally.

it's a little more difficult, I think these days you have to be very careful.

>> What's difficult, do you mean?

>> I think the consequences, you know, if you will, I mean, these days you can barely say the wrong thing without, you know, being canceled or, you know, someone in the administration coming after you, you know, or you losing your job or this or that.

and so it's gotten to the point where.

It's the really courageous thing to, to say, no.

it's the really courageous thing to speak out, you know, to organize.

>> Despite the fear of retribution.

>> Yes.

You know, when I was born, the 1964 Civil Rights Act had not yet been passed, had not yet been enacted, the Voting Rights Act had not yet passed.

It would a couple of months later.

You know, I would hear folks say all the time, oh, that happened so long ago.

When things happen in my lifetime, you know, when I was born, black people did not yet have rights.

You know, my wife is white.

Let me be.

Virginia did not you know that Supreme Court decision came down the week before my second birthday?

MM.

On the day of my fourth birthday, Stonewall happened in the fifth grade.

It was called back then.

The education of all Handicapped Children Act.

That is what would become the individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

I never thought that I would live to see two terms of a black president, and then live to see my history and people as black people being erased.

And, you know, to think that we are still having to fight for our humanity, fight for value and all.

>> Anita this project that you've been working on, we were there to.

What have you learned so far from that work.

>> That we are erased and that if we don't have the privilege of an education or privilege in general, we.

We get forgotten, we get erased.

That project actually started as a Twitter rant in 2015 because we were celebrating the Americans with Disabilities Act and the people highlighted.

I noticed that very few of the people highlighted were black.

It was almost as if black disabled people did nothing to fight for.

The Americans with Disabilities Act, when in fact we did.

Congressman Major Owens from here in New York.

That was his proudest achievement.

Working on the Americans with Disabilities Act.

At the time, he was chair of the Congressional Black Caucus and chair of a number of committees, and used that to help push the Ada through.

Yet when the Ada was passed and people were being celebrated, he was not included.

The Tanya Reeves, she was she passed away a few years ago.

A dear friend of mine.

But here this woman had an entire piece of legislation named for her, and no one knows who she was.

so the Tanya Reeves Freedom Act was a piece of legislation that would give disabled people the civil rights to live in the community with services and supports.

There are other folks you know, like that.

The folks that I'm highlighting are are folks whom I worked with in adapt.

A lot of these folks did not go to school.

a lot of these folks, are faced, you know, almost insurmountable challenges, but still, you know, managed to, to persevere and to get out there and help fight and to help change laws.

And yet people don't know, you know, who they are.

And so, you know, that is why, you know, I, you know, am working on my project.

We were there too, because people need to know.

And certainly in this age of black history being erased and everything, you know, being considered D I and all, it's so important that that history is, is told.

>> Anita for you.

What is self-advocacy?

>> Self-Advocacy is when you are advocating for yourself, for your needs.

And then there's individual advocacy where someone assists another person in getting the things that they need.

And then there's systems advocacy.

And that's what I did.

That was what I did at center for Disability Rights.

And that's what I tend to do where you work to change systems where you work to change policies and laws.

I, I tend to, for lack of a better word, shine in systems advocacy because that's the greatest amount for the most folks.

And if you notice the chirping light at the corner of state and J. that was directly my advocacy.

Many, many, many, many years ago, 20 years ago with Monroe County they had denied us that knowing that we had blind folks crossing that street.

And I did go to the county and I very nicely said I could bring a few of my friends here if you'd like.

and they said no.

And two days later, we had our light.

you know, and it doesn't always have to get to that doesn't always have to get to to direct action or things of that nature.

But I'm certainly not shy about, you know, utilizing direct action.

if that's, you know, and usually that's because people say no to reasonable things.

And if you say no to reasonable things and nothing that I have done being nice works with you, then I have to go to direct action route.

And unfortunately, you know, or fortunately it, it works, but it's not, although I'm known for that you know, I've managed to get some things done without that, but direct action is always in my toolkit to utilize when people are being unreasonable.

>> And enlightening conversation.

I really appreciate you taking the time.

>> Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

>> That was Anita Cameron disability justice activist.

For more information on self-advocacy, visit our website at Move to Include.

Org, you can support this podcast by subscribing or following wherever you listen.

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